BRUCE'S CHILDREN
PDel...@aol.com
Robert 'The Bruce' 1272-1329 x 1) Isabel , fa Donald Earl of Mar from whom
Marjorie +1315/1316 x Walter 6th High stewart of Scotland...
x2) , 1302 Elizabeth de BURGH, +1327 fa Richard Earl of Ulster, from whom
1) David*1323/4 x 1) Joan , fa Edward II King of England, +dsp 1362
2) 20/2/1363-4 Margaret (div 20/3/1369/70) widow
of Sir john Logie and fa Sir Malcolm DRUMMOND ....children?
2) John + Yng
3) Matilda +1353 = Thomas ISAAC...children?
4) Margaret, +1358 x ante 10/11/1345 5th Earl of Sunderland
Are there any more?
Peter de Loriol
74 Elms Road
London, SW4 9EW, GB
Fax: (0)207 622 4505
Tel : (0)207 622 9623
The...@aol.com
Hello Peter (and Brad, et al.)
Evidently not.
According to G.W.S. Barrow [Robert Bruce, p. 411] there were four
children, two sons and two daughters. The other son (unnamed by Barrow)
besides the future David II died as a child. The two daughters are as you
indicate.
As to Margaret Bruce, first wife of William, Earl of Sutherland, I
recall there was at least a child of the marriage (who eventually d.s.p.) -
the same neuron retains the idea that there was at one time a plan in
Scotland to have the issue of Margaret and William of Sutherland succeed
David II in the event that he did not produce an heir [which he did not].
How far this plan went I don't recall, except that there was no surviving
child of Margaret Bruce.
William, Earl of Sutherland (d. 1370) married as his second wife Joanna
de Mentieth, daughter of one Sir John de Mentieth of Ruskie. Aside from his
being a brother of the Earl of Mentieth and first cousin of James the Stewart
[father of Walter, grandfather of King Robert II] this man is best known as
the captor (directly or through his followers) of Sir William Wallace on 3
August 1305, who then was turned over to the English for 'justice'. [Note,
he did return to the King''s peace - Robert of Scotland's, that is]
Hope this helps.
John
Phil Moody
Are there any more?
PLM: Yes, there are the Bastards:-) To correct or add confusion to the info
you wrote, let me quote Walter Lee Sheppard Jr.'s essay, "Royal Bye Blows
III, Illegitimate Descendants of The Scottish Kings to James VI". This
appeared in the Oct. 1968 issue (p. 265x274) of "The Register" but alas, I
neglected to write the Volume number down on my photocopy. I believe it to
be volume 122 but I will verify this Tuesday, when I return to the Library
to collect the two preceding essays by Sheppard.
p. 267
"Robert I, the Bruce (died 1329) (see above under Henry of Huntingdon),
succeeded John Balliol after years of struggle; married (1) Isabella,
daughter of Donald, 10th Earl of Mar, by whom he had a daughter Marjorie who
married Walter the High Steward, killed by a fall 1316 leaving an only son
Robert Stewart who became Robert II. Robert the Bruce married (2) Elizabeth,
daughter of Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, by whom he had sons David II
and John (d.y.) and daughters (1) Mathilda married Thomas Isaac and had two
daughters Catherine d.s.p., and Joanna married John, Lord of Lorn; and (2)
Margaret married William, 4th Earl of Sutherland, and had two sons, John,
d.v.p. and William, 5th Earl" [PLM: either Sheppard has the Earls of
Sutherland confused, or the previous sources mentioned in this forum do?]
"King Robert I had also the following bastards:
i. Sir Robert Bruce, Lord of Liddesdale & Sprouston, killed 12 Aug. 1332."
[PLM: Question: are you truly a bastard if you bear your fathers name?]
"ii. Walter Bruce of Odistoun, d.v.p.
iii. Nigel (or Neil) Bruce of Carrick, killed at Neville's Cross 17 Oct.
1346.
iv. Margaret married Robert Glen, living 29 Feb. 1363/4.
v. Elizabeth married Sir Walter Oliphant of Gask.
vi. Christian Bruce of Carrick, living 1328/9."
PLM: Let me now quote Sheppard further to deal with the Lord of Lorn
questions.
p. 269 and 270.
"James I, eldest son of Robert III, crowned 1424, assassinated 1437, married
1424 Joan Beaufort, granddaughter of John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster, son
of Edward III, and by her had twin sons Alexander (d.y.) and James II, and
six daughters." [PLM: Sheppard does not name these daughters but he does
cite the D.N.B., vol. 29, p. 129; S.P., vol. I, p. 18x19.]
"He is said to have been deeply in love with her and to be the only Stewart
King of England who had neither mistresses nor bastards. His widow married
(2) 1439 James Stewart, Lord of Lorn, "the Black Knight of Lorn" (see above
under Robert I), the son of Sir John Stewart, Lord of Lorn, jure uxoris, by
his wife Isabel, daughter of Joanna Isaac (or Ysak), daughter of Mathilda
Bruce and Thomas Isaac of Lorn. By this second marriage Joan had three sons:
(1) Sir John Stewart, Earl of Atholl, (2) Sir James Stewart, Earl of Buchan
(who had bastards: James, ancestors of the Earls of Traquair, and Agnes
married (1) Adam, Earl of Bothwell); (3) Andrew, Bishop of Moray."
PLM: Well, there you have it:-) I do note that Joan of Beaufort was a very
fertile flower to bear 11 children:-)
Cheers,
Phil
Tim Powys-Lybbe
moody...@prodigy.net (Phil Moody) wrote:
<snip>
> Robert the Bruce married (2) Elizabeth,
> daughter of Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, by whom he had sons David II
> and John (d.y.) and daughters (1) Mathilda married Thomas Isaac and had two
> daughters Catherine d.s.p., and Joanna married John, Lord of Lorn; and (2)
> Margaret married William, 4th Earl of Sutherland, and had two sons, John,
> d.v.p. and William, 5th Earl" [PLM: either Sheppard has the Earls of
> Sutherland confused, or the previous sources mentioned in this forum do?]
CP, V p. 544, has (no corrections in XIV) Wm to be 5th earl, and John,
the 6th earl to be the son of Joan Mentieth, Wm's second wife. CP
states that Margaret [Bruce] is said to have died in childbirth after 30
Mar 1346.
<more snip, of the much more interesting account of the royal bastards.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Phil Moody
CP, V p. 544, has (no corrections in XIV) Wm to be 5th earl, and John,
the 6th earl to be the son of Joan Mentieth, Wm's second wife. CP
states that Margaret [Bruce] is said to have died in childbirth after 30
Mar 1346.
PLM: Tim, thanks for this. It seems to add fuel to the confusion by stating
that John was the sixth Earl and son of Joan Menteith which contradicts the
S.P. ref that John sent. I think the death date will be very helpful in
sorting this out. Peter, if C.P. asserts that Margaret died in childbirth;
does it name the child?
To Sheppard's credit, he does intersperse his essay with 63 citations but
he overlooked the Sutherland assertions, apparently:-) I'm still rubbing the
sleep from my eyes here; so I have looked for the additional info yet.
Cheers,
Phil