The early Wroths of Enfield, Middlesex

[mj...@btinternet.com]

The initial generations of the Wroths of Enfield are somewhat difficult
to ascertain, due to conflicting details in various published sources
and an apparent succession of John Wroths.

Roskell et al give what seems to be a good general summary (HoP
1386-1421 Vol IV sub Wroth) but I am not convinced that this is without
error. That summary is as follows, together with my additions and
comments as appropriate:

1. John Wroth, the first of "six successive generations, father and
son, each named John Wroth"; merchant and customs collector of the Port
of London - but see his son's holding this position, infra; one of this
name apparently Knight of the Shire for Middlesex in the Parliament of
December 1332 [PRO C/219/330/15]; Father of:

2. Alderman John Wroth, fishmonger and citizen of London; sheriff of
London, 1351 [e.g. PRO E40/1633]; collector of customs of the Port of
London by 1359 [Cal. Pat. Rolls, 29.8.1359]; Mayor, 1360-1361; resigned
as Alderman in 1376, due to old age; said to have married Margaret
Enfield and thus acquired estates in Enfield, Middlesex. Father of:

3. John Wroth 'the younger'; MP; JP for Middlesex; o.v.p. 1375; married
firstly; married secondly Maud, daughter and heir of Thomas Durant (she
married secondly Sir Baldwin de Raddington, MP). Issue by both
marriages:

4a. John Wroth, son of his father's first marriage; of Enfield and of
Downton, Wilts; MP for Middlesex, 1382, 1384; for Wiltshire, 1390; JP
for Middlesex from 1377; died 1396; married Margaret, heiress of the
Buckland family of Downton, Wilts, and Over & Nether Wallop and
Brookley, Hants. Issue:

5a. Sir John Wroth, born circa 1366; MP for Middlesex, 1397, 1401,
1404, 1406; JP for Middlesex; died 1407; will proved PCC [Prob 11/2A,
1408]; married Margaret Wellington, and had issue: John, his son and
heir, two further sons, and Elizabeth, wife of Sir William Palton, MP -
all of whom were dead s.p. by 1413

5b. Robert Wroth, d.s.p.

5c. Richard Wroth, d.s.p.

5d. Agnes Wroth, married Sir Payn Tiptoft, MP. Issue: Sir John
Tiptoft, eventual heir to the Wroth estates.

5e. (daughter)

5f. (daughter)

4b. William Wroth, son of his father's second marriage; MP for
Middlesex, 1404; died 1408; married and left issue, from whom the later
Wroths of Enfield traced their descent.

[mj...@btinternet.com]

m...@btinternet.com schrieb:

> 2. Alderman John Wroth, fishmonger and citizen of London; sheriff of
> London, 1351 [e.g. PRO E40/1633]; collector of customs of the Port of
> London by 1359 [Cal. Pat. Rolls, 29.8.1359]; Mayor, 1360-1361; resigned
> as Alderman in 1376, due to old age; said to have married Margaret
> Enfield and thus acquired estates in Enfield, Middlesex.

First 'problem'. Given that Alderman John Wroth's male-line great
grandson was born circa 1366, I posit his birth as about 1300 -
admittedly with considerable latitude. The manner by which the Enfield
estates came to the Wroth family (other than the manor of Durrants
which came in through the marriage of William Wroth to the Durrant
heiress) is a little peculiar.

According to VCH Middlesex Vol 5 sub Enfield, John Wroth married the
widow of John de Enfield. There is a succession of documents which
deals with the marital status of John Wroth, but which do not make
clear which John married the widow:

(A) John and Juliana

London Assize for Nuisance, 1301-1341: entry for 1346/7 records John
Wroth and Juliana his wife as occupiers of property in Honey Lane,
London.

(B) John and Margaret

(i) Cal. Pat. Rolls 2 December 1349: Grant to John de Wynwyk, king's
clerk, that in case Francis, son and heir of John de Enefeld, tenant in
chief, whose marriage has been granted to him by letters patent in
return for L40, who has not yet completed the age of two years, as the
King hears, should die before he attain a marriageable age and there is
no other heir of Francis within age for him to have the marriage of,
restitution of the L40 shall be made to him or his executors at the
Exchequer without difficulty.

Thus, we know that Francis, son of John de Enfield presumably by his
wife Margaret, was born circa 1348, which presumably must also be the
approximate death date of John.

(ii) Cal. Pat. Rolls 23 May 1352: Pardon to John Wroth and Margaret his
wife, late the king's widow, for intermarrying without his licence.

We also know that Margaret remarried to John Wroth between 1348 and
1352.

(iii) Cal. Pat. Rolls 29 August 1359: Pardon to John Wroth, collector
of customs of the Port of London, of the L13 6s 8d which he is bound to
render at the Exchequer yearly for keeping of the lands late of John de
Enefeld who held in chief, committed to him during the nonage of
Francis the son and heir.

In my initial post, I have assumed that the John Wroth, Customs
Collector in 1359, was the mayor of 1360, but there is apparently
enough room for it to be his son and namesake,who died in 1375 and
whose first wife's identity is apparently unknown.

(iv) Cal. Pat. Rolls 1 May 1369: Pardon to the vicar of Enfield and
others for acquiring in fee from Francis de Enefeld a messuage, 32
acres of land, 2 acres of meadow and 66s 11d rent in Enfield,
Middlesex, held in chief, and entering therein without licence; and
licence to them to retain the same; licence also for them to grant the
premises to John Wroth the elder (sic) and Margaret his wife for life,
with remainder to the said Francis in tail, and to the heirs of the
body of the said John Wroth and remainder over to the right heirs of
Francis, for 100s paid in the hanaper.

This reference to John Wroth the elder as husband of Margaret is not as
helpful as it could be, for in 1369 there were apparently four John
Wroths - father, son, grandson and great-grandson - only one of whom
(born c1366) was certainly a minor.

(v) VCH Middlesex, sub Enfield: "In 1373 Francis, son of John de
Enfield, quitclaimed property in Enfield and Edmonton to his father's
widow, Margaret, and her second husband John Wroth, who died in 1396".

This is certainly wrong, for it was John Wroth the grandson who died in
1396.

Roskell mentions that the will of John Wroth (d 1375) is at the
Guildhall.

>From the material available to me, I am unable to ascertain whether it
was John the Mayor or his son who married Margaret de Enfield. Any
clues or comments welcome.

MAR

[mj...@btinternet.com]

mj...@btinternet.com schrieb:

> First 'problem'. Given that Alderman John Wroth's male-line great
> grandson was born circa 1366, I posit his birth as about 1300 -
> admittedly with considerable latitude. The manner by which the Enfield
> estates came to the Wroth family (other than the manor of Durrants
> which came in through the marriage of William Wroth to the Durrant
> heiress) is a little peculiar.

I meant to refer to the [second] marriage of John Wroth (d 1375) to the
Durrant heiress; the elder William Wroth was their son his mother's
heir.

As to Alderman John Wroth's putative birthdate, I see that according to
the following extract from a typical genealogy website, he could have
been much older than I thought!

"The Wroths claim descent from William de Wrotham, constable of Dover
Castle in the reign of King John (sic), through his son John Wroth,
sheriff of London in 1331 and lord mayor in 1361.

"Arms - Argent, on a bend sable three lions' heads erased of the field,
crowned or.

"Crest - A lion's head erased guardant azure crowned or".

[mard...@yahoo.com]

According to Alfred Beaven, ALDERMEN OF LONDON....., John Wroth who was
mayor in 1360-1 died in 1376. This is close, but if his son died in
1375, as I have it, then it is the elder John who was the mayor. This
is also the John Wrothe who m. Margaret Enfield. Frederick Weaver, in
VISITATIONS OF THE COUNTY OF SOMERSET, gives John Wrothe the younger a
wife named Beatrix St. Maur. I haven't seen this anywhere else and her
father is not named.

Mardi

[mard...@yahoo.com]

In the writ to the escheator to take proof of the age of Francis
Enfield (taken 30 Nov 42 Edw III - i.e. 1369), it appears that he was
born on the feast of St. Mark 21 years earlier. His birthday comes out
to be 25 Apr 1348. At the end of this document it says, "....that John
Wroth, the elder, married Margaret, mother of the said Francis, on
sunday before the Purification in the third year after the birth."
That gives a marriage date of 2 Feb 1351.

[mard...@yahoo.com]

I found the following at PROCAT:

54 Henry III [1269-70]

E 326/2110 Grant by William son of Robert de Keles, to John Skyp, of
London, of a mansion-house in the parish of St. Mary, Neuwecherche.
Witnesses:- John Wrothe, mayor, Walter de Berney and John Deynes,
sheriffs, of London, Simon Dolsaly, alderman of that ward, and others
(named).

Is this our first John Wrothe, who d. 1330/7? I didn't see this in
Beaven, but may have missed it.

[mard...@yahoo.com]

I think the marriage date of John Wroth and Margaret Enfield should be
1352, not 1351.

[mj...@btinternet.com]

mard...@yahoo.com schrieb:

Thanks Mardi - something to work on nevertheless. I see that "on the
web" she is assigned as a daughter of Nicholas, 1st Baron St Maur by
Elena Zouche (post Charleton). That would be an interesting match - a
couple of descents from Henry I (one through Henry II) so perhaps the
putative Plantagenet link means others have already scrutinised this
allegation.

MAR

[mj...@btinternet.com]

mard...@yahoo.com schrieb:

I think this is a misleading date in PROCAT.

The list of London Mayors shows that Hugh Fitz Otho was serving in
1269, and John Adrien in 1270.

Furthermore, there are other PROCAT document with the same "cast" but
different dates: e.g.:

Demise by Osbert Hilberworthe and Katherine his wife, to Stephen
Daubeneye and Margery his wife, all of London, of a shop in the parish
of St. Michael, Cornhulle, for twenty years after the death of the
grantors. Witnesses:- John Wrothe, mayor, Walter de Berney and John

Deynes, sheriffs, of London, Simon Dolsaly, alderman of that ward, and

others (named): E 326/2109, which is dated 1 November 34 Edward III
(1360) - i.e. duri g the 1360-1 mayoralty of John Wroth.

but cf:

Demise by Osbert Hilberworthe and Katherine his wife, to Stephen
Daubeneye and Margery his wife, all of London, of a shop in the parish
of St. Michael, Cornhulle, for twenty years after the death of the
grantors. Witnesses:- John Wrothe, mayor, Walter de Berney and John

Deynes, sheriffs, of London, Simon Dolsaly, alderman of that ward, and

others (named): Middx: E326/2108 which is dated 18 January 21 Richard
II (sic)

I suppose the PROCAT extract dates are not necessarily reliable, which
is worrying.

[mard...@yahoo.com]

I guess it shouldn't be too surprising to find discrepancies when the
human hand is involved, but it certainly works to foil our efforts.

[Edward Crabtree]

Ok, apparently my age is wreaking havoc on my comprehension of this running
commentary.

Do we have a definitive tree showing all the John Wroths, their wives, and
necessary dates? If so, can someone show me a simple rundown?

Thanks.
Ed Crabtree - Missouri, USA
familyh...@kc.rr.com
All outgoing messages checked by McAfee VirusScan

[mj...@btinternet.com]

"Edward Crabtree" schrieb:

> Ok, apparently my age is wreaking havoc on my comprehension of this running
> commentary.
>
> Do we have a definitive tree showing all the John Wroths, their wives, and
> necessary dates? If so, can someone show me a simple rundown?

See my first post on this thread. The only thing that has been added
is a marriage date for the second John Wroth and Margaret Enfield (and
a tentative identification of his son's first wife as Beatrix de St
Maur).

MAR

[mard...@yahoo.com]

Here is what I have accumulated on the Wrothe descent. The early line
of the Wrotham family is complicated by numerous secondary source
interpretations and misinterpretations, which are indicated. Hugh de
Plessis is a conundrum that I have not solved. Sibllings are
mentioned, but I have not researched them heavily.

1 Geoffrey de WROTHAM
---------------------------------------------
Birth: Of Radenville, near Wrotham, co Kent, England,

Of Radenville, near Wrotham, co Kent
Domestic servant of several Archbishops of Canterbury

Sources1,2,3

Spouse: Muriel de LYD

Sources2,4

Children: William de (-1213)

1.1 William de WROTHAM
---------------------------------------------
Birth: Of Newton, North Petherton, co Somerset, England
Death: 1213

Lord of Newton, North Petherton, co Somerset
Warden of the Stannaries cos. Devon and Cornwall 1197-8
Granted him the manor of Cathanger in Fivehead, and the bailiwick of
North Petherton, co. Somerset
Granted Newton, co. Somerset, 1198
Sheriff co. Devon 1199
Forester of Dorset and Somerset 1199
Lieutenant of Dover Castle, and ultimately Constable of the Castle and
Lord Warden
Served Archbishop Hubert Walter

Other children:
William, Archbishop of Taunton; d. 1218

Sources1,5,6,7,8

Discrepancies:
6The author of the article in Arch. Cant. gives the accomplishments
listed as those of the
father of William, Archdeacon of Taunton.
1Foss notes that father and son held similar offices and it is
difficult to separate them.
7I think this William is confused with his son William

Spouse: Maud de CORNHILL

Sources1,5,9,7,8

Children: Richard (-1219)

1.1.1 Richard WROTHAM
---------------------------------------------
Birth: Of Newton, co Somerset, England
Death: 1219/1224

Lord of Newton, co Somerset

Other children:
Richard m. Margaret de Shopland &/or Cecilia
Constance m. John le Blund; oc 1264
Christina m. Thomas Picot
Emma m. Geoffrey Scoland; d. bef 1250

Sources5,6,7,8,10

Discrepancies:
5Wrothe line descends from son Richard
6son Richard d. 1250 s.p.
7called nephew of William, but the offices held are attributed to
William, the Archdeacon,
brother of this Richard. The nephew of William, the Archdeacon
is Richard who d. 1250 s.p.

Children: Muriel de (-<1250)

1.1.1.1 Muriel de WROTHAM
---------------------------------------------
Death: bef 1250

Sources5,9,8,10,11

Spouse: Hugh PLESSIS

A Poitevin

Other children:
William b. 1220; d. 1276

Sources5,3,8,10,11

Discrepancies:
5bastard of John, Earl of Warwick
3nephew of John, Earl of Warwick
11brother of John Earl of Warwick - citing Kimber's Baronetage I:523

Children: Richard de

1.1.1.1.1 Richard de WROTHAM
---------------------------------------------
Birth: Of Wrotham, and Ford, co Kent, England
Death: w.d. 1292

Of Wrotham, and Ford, co Kent

Other children:
William d.s.p.
Richard, of Sheperton

Sources5,9,10,11

Discrepancies
5called John, Prior of the Friars Preachers and envoy from Edw I and II
to the Court of Rome;
d. 1323 s.p.
11descent from 2nd son - no name given
10descent from Richard, of Sheperton, d. 1302
5called Robert from whose son Richard, of Sheperton, d. 1302, the line
descends

Spouse: Gladyna le ROMEYN
Father: Berenger le ROMEYN

Sources5,12,10

Children: John (->1332)

1.1.1.1.1.1 John WROTHE
---------------------------------------------
Death: aft 1332/713,10

Distinguished merchant
Customs collector in the port of London
Knight of the Shire for Middlesex in the Parliament of DEC 1332
(probably)

Sources5,12,10,14,13

Discrepancies
14says most of the pedigrees of Wroth are flawed
12Prior of the Friars Preachers and envoy from Edw I and II to the
Court of Rome;
d. 1323 s.p; son of Richard, son of Richard.
10after this John, Wallop has the line very confused

Spouse: Margaret HEGGE
Father: Robert HEGGE

Sources5,10

Children: John (-1376)

1.1.1.1.1.1.1 John WROTHE
---------------------------------------------
Birth: Of Enfield, co Middlesex, and Puck Shipton, co Wiltshire,
England
Death: 137615

Of Enfield, co Middlesex, which he bought in 1374, and of Puck Shipton,
co Wiltshire
Fishmonger
Sheriff of London 1351
Collector of customs of the Port of London by 1359
London alderman 1358-76
Mayor of London 1360-1
MP co. Middlesex, 1366, 1368, 1372

Sources5,16,17,18,19,20,15,21

Discrepancies
5d. 1330 and m. Margaret, d of Robert Hegge

Spouse: Margaret

1st husband: John Enfield with issue

Sources16,17,18,20

Marr: 2 Feb 135222

Children: John (-1375)

1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 John WROTHE
---------------------------------------------
Birth: of Enfield, Middlesex
Death: 1375, d.v.p.

Fishmonger
Justice of the Peace co. Middlesex
Shire knight

Sources5,16

Spouse: Beatrix ST. MAUR

Sources5

Children: John (-1396)

1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir John WROTHE
---------------------------------------------
Birth: Of Enfield, co Middlesex, and Downton, co Wiltshire, England
Death: 31 Aug 1396

Of Enfield, co Middlesex, and Downton, co Wiltshire
Knight
MP 1382, 1384, 1390
Justice of the Peace 1377-81
Coroner of Wiltshire

Other children:
John b. abt. 1366; m. Margaret Wellington by 1391; d. 21 Aug 1407
Richard
Robert
at least 2 more children

2nd wife: Maud Durant with issue

Sources5,23,24,25,26,27,28,29

Discrepancies
26skips at least 2 generations

Spouse: Margaret BUCKLAND
Father: John BUCKLAND (-1362)
Mother: Margaret

Sources5,16,30,25,31

Children: Agnes (-<1413)

1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Agnes WROTHE
---------------------------------------------
Death: bef Oct 1413

Sources5,32,27,33,34,35,36

Spouse: Sir Pain de TIPTOFT
Birth: abt 1351, Of Burwell, co Cambridge, England
Father: Lord Tibetot John de TIBETOT (1313-1367)
Mother: Elizabeth ASPALL

Of Burwell, co Cambridge
Knight by Mar 1387
MP 1399, 1404
Served on local commissions 1382-1410
Justice of the peace co. Cambridge 1399 to death
Surveyor of the King's warrens cos. Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridge 1401 to
(?) death
Sheriff cos. Cambridge and Huntingdon 1401-2, 1404-5

Sources5,37,27,33,38,35,39,40,41

Children: Elizabeth de
John de (Sir) (-1442)

Sources

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7. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
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8. PUBLICATIONS OF THE HARLEIAN SOCIETY., London, various editors and
dates., v 3 p 40.
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312, 314.
10. Watney, Vernon James, WALLOP FAMILY., Oxford: John Johnson, 1928.,
#1055.
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Bensley, 1807., v 1 p 400.
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1386-1421., Published for the History of Parliament Trust; Stroud:
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1908., London: E. Fisher & company, limited, 1908-13., v 1 p 388.
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[al...@mindspring.com]

FYI

'North Petherton: Manors and other estates', A History of the County of
Somerset: Volume 6: Andersfield, Cannington, and North Petherton
Hundreds (Bridgwater and neighbouring parishes) (1992), pp. 283-300.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=18686. Date
accessed: 06 December 2005.

"William Wrotham, who combined the forestership, the Stable and
Odburville holdings, and the lands of William Dacus in an estate known
as NEWTON or NEWTON FORESTER, was appointed archdeacon of Taunton c.
1204. (fn. 89) He was still alive in 1212, but by 1216 he had been
succeeded by his nephew Richard, a minor. (fn. 90) Richard (d. s.p.
1250), known as Richard Forester, was succeeded by his nephew William
de Plessis. Richard's estate at his death included, in addition to his
inheritance from William Wrotham, land at Newton held of Stephen son of
Michael (fn. 91) which may have been a half virgate in Estable Newton
alienated in the time of Henry I. (fn. 92)

William de Plessis (d. c. 1274) was given custody of Petherton park in
fee. His nephew and successor was Richard de Barbeflote or Plessis (d.
1289). Two thirds of his estate and the forestership passed to his
sisters, Sabina, wife of Nicholas Pecche (d. 1295), Evelyn, wife of
John Durant, and Emme, wife of John Heyron. (fn. 93) Richard's widow
Margery (d. c. 1293) was to have her third for life, which was to
revert to Evelyn and Emme; the forestership passed to Sabina. (fn. 94)

Sabina Pecche (d. c. 1307) left to her son Nicholas an estate later
called a third of NEWTON PLECY or NEWTON REGIS manor. Nicholas Pecche
(d. 1323) was succeeded by his son Richard (d. by 1330). (fn. 95)
Richard's son Thomas (d. under age 1332) was followed by Richard's
brother Matthew. (fn. 96) Matthew sold his estates in 1336 to Sir
Richard Dammory, who granted a life interest to Matthew of Clevedon in
1342. (fn. 97) Matthew released his interest before 1351 when Dammory
sold the manor and forestership to Roger Beauchamp. Roger sold them in
turn to Roger Mortimer, earl of March, in 1359. (fn. 98) The estate
passed with the earldom of March to the Crown and to Katharine and
Anne, daughters of Edward IV. In 1511 it was recovered by the Crown and
was granted, as the lordship and manor of North Petherton, in 1547 to
Edward Seymour, duke of Somerset. (fn. 99) Following Somerset's
attainder it was granted in 1553 to John Dudley, duke of
Northumberland. The duke exchanged it for Syon House (Mdx.) in the same
year with Sir Thomas Wroth (d. 1573). (fn. 1) Sir Thomas was involved
in Suffolk's rebellion in 1554 and went into exile until Elizabeth's
accession. (fn. 2)

Sir Thomas settled Newton Regis on his younger brother William in 1568
in trust for his own six younger sons. The sons shared the manor in
1586. (fn. 3) In 1623 the manor was settled on John, the only surviving
son, and on Sir Thomas Wroth, son of John's brother Thomas (d. 1610).
Sir Thomas, a member of the Long Parliament, was appointed to try
Charles I but attended only one session of the trial. (fn. 4) John died
in 1633 without issue (fn. 5) and Sir Thomas in 1672 when he was
succeeded by his greatnephew, Sir John Wroth, Bt. (fn. 6) Sir John died
c. 1677 leaving an infant son Sir Thomas (d. 1721). The estate passed
to Sir Thomas's elder daughter Cecily, wife of Sir Hugh Acland, Bt.,
and on her death in 1761 to her son Sir Thomas Acland, Bt. (fn. 7) Sir
Thomas died in 1785 and was followed in turn by his grandson Sir John
Dyke Acland (d. 1785) and his own second son Sir Thomas Dyke Acland (d.
1794). The son of the last, Sir Thomas (d. 1871), sold most of the
estate in 1834 to William Nation, but the lordship with some land was
still retained by his son, also Sir Thomas (d. 1898), in 1872. (fn. 8)"

Doug Smith

[mj...@btinternet.com]

mard...@yahoo.com schrieb:

> Here is what I have accumulated on the Wrothe descent.
>

> 1.1.1.1.1.1.1 John WROTHE
> ---------------------------------------------
> Birth: Of Enfield, co Middlesex, and Puck Shipton, co Wiltshire,
> England
> Death: 1376
>

> Of Enfield, co Middlesex, which he bought in 1374, and of Puck Shipton,

> Collector of customs of the Port of London by 1359
> London alderman 1358-76
> Mayor of London 1360-1
> MP co. Middlesex, 1366, 1368, 1372
>

> Spouse: Margaret
> 1st husband: John Enfield with issue
>

> Marr: 2 Feb 1352
>
> Children: John (-1375)

Given that John the younger, died 1375, became a grandfather circa
1365, he cannot have been born after 1351 and thus cannot have been the
son of Margaret de Enfield. John the Mayor must therefore have had an
earlier wife.

[mard...@yahoo.com]

Good point. The date "abt. 1366" as John Wroth's (d. 1407) birthdate
comes from Roskell so it would be interesting to see how he arrives at
it. I don't find birthdates for any of the John Wrothes among my
sources.

[mj...@btinternet.com]

mj...@btinternet.com schrieb:

> mard...@yahoo.com schrieb:
>
> > According to Alfred Beaven, ALDERMEN OF LONDON....., John Wroth who was
> > mayor in 1360-1 died in 1376. This is close, but if his son died in
> > 1375, as I have it, then it is the elder John who was the mayor. This
> > is also the John Wrothe who m. Margaret Enfield. Frederick Weaver, in
> > VISITATIONS OF THE COUNTY OF SOMERSET, gives John Wrothe the younger a
> > wife named Beatrix St. Maur. I haven't seen this anywhere else and her
> > father is not named.

According to CP, Nicholas, 1st Baron St Maur, married twice, firstly to
Eve de Meysy and secondly to Elena Zouche. His heir was his son by the
first marriage, Thomas (de jure 2nd Baron), who died without issue in
1358. His IPM (Cal IPMs Vol X, #437) states that - while his
half-brother Nicholas, son of the second marriage, succeeded to the
peerage - his heir was John Worthy (sic), son of his full-sister
Beatrice [a reference to the Close Rolls 1354-1360 p 552 is also
given].

I wonder whether the pedigrees purporting to take the Wroths back
through the Worthy family to the de Wrothams are merely based on the
similarity of names. I would be surprised if Roskell, for instance,
missed the link to the St Maurs, given that John Worthy was their heir
general.

[mard...@yahoo.com]

Or is it one of the numerous spelling variations we so commonly deal
with in this time period?

Mardi

[mard...@yahoo.com]

Neither Marshall nor Whitmore have any sources listed for the name
"Worthy." Marshall, however, has a fair number for the family "Worth."
"Wroth" as expected is a separate listing.

[mard...@yahoo.com]

Will of Ela, Lady St. Maur (43 Arundel II) from Somerset Record Society
v. 19 p 309-10
Nov 28th 1409

Ela, Lady de Saint Maur. My body to be buried in the new chapel of the
priory of Staverdall, viz., next the body of Sir Richard de Saint Maur,
knight, my husband. To discreet and suitable priests to celebrate
4,000 masses for my soul and for the souls of all the
faithful.....[there follow numerous bequests to priests and requests
for masses to be said]. To Nicholas de St. Maur my son L 20. To John
my son , a pair of beads.......[etc. with descriptions]. To John Boof,
junior, 100s. TO JOHN WORTH [my capitals] 5s. To Thomas Loell 100s.
To Richard Norexo 100s. To Joan his wife 40s. To William Tyndynhull
40s. To Nicholas Mew 40s. To the fabric of the nave of the church of
Wynkaulton 10 marks.

[Here is the requirement that debts be paid, etc.]

I make John de St. Maur my son, JOHN WORTH, John Beare, chaplian, and
John Boof (or Beef), junior my executors.

Will proved 15 Mar 1409

Note: The IPM of Richard de St. Maur, chevalier, is dated 2 Henry IV.

The name in this transcription is certainly WORTH. It would be helpful
if someone could get the original and take a look. I can't locate it
in Documents Online.

Combining CP and the Will here is the pedigree:

1. Nicholas St. Maur (d. 1318)
+ Eve de Meysey
2. Thomas St. Maur, d. 1358 s.p.
2. Beatrix St. Maur
+ NN Worth(y)
3. John Worth(y)
+ Elena Zouche (d. bef. 1361)
2. Nicholas (d. 1361)
+ Muriel Lovell
3. Richard St. Maur (d. 1401)
+ Ela St. Lo (d. 1409)

Our John Wrothe who may have m. a Beatrix St. Maur d. 1375.

I think we need to research the Worth family and see if there has been
a mix-up between Worth and Wroth.

Mardi

[mj...@btinternet.com]

mard...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Will of Ela, Lady St. Maur (43 Arundel II) from Somerset Record Society
> v. 19 p 309-10
> Nov 28th 1409

Mardi

Excellent find - well done. I'm in New South Wales at present, so my
opportunities for primary research are likely to be limited for a
while.

The question of whether Worth could be a variant for Wroth is
interesting. The only analogy I can think of off the top of my head is
of English placenames ending in -thorp, which formerly were also
written -throp (e.g. Ibthorp in Hampshire, which appears in Jane
Austen's 18th century letters as Ibthrop). Although Reaney has, if I
recall rightly, a different derivation, I suspect the surname Thripp is
probably a variant of Thorp on the same basis. Perhaps a search on
PROCAT under *wroth would produce something instructive?

Regards

Michael

[pd...@peterdale.com]

Greetings,

I have set forth below a draft of my Wroth ancestry (from my 14th G-Grandmother Elizabeth Wroth) following it back to the Placetis and Wrotham families via Maud Durant (b. approx. 1337-38 and d. before December 7, 1401). While I have made no progress in further establishing that the Wroth family of Enfield, Middlesex and Newton-Plecy, Somerset descended from the Wrotham family in the male line, I believe the evidence below (especially the IPMs) quite nicely shows a descent from Richard I de Wrotham (d. before February 16, 1218) who was the brother of the much better known William de Wrotham (d. before February 16, 1218). There is an interesting article from ‘The Genealogist’ (http://archive.org/stream/genealogist04mars#page/n5/mode/2up) which purports to identify the Wrotham family ancestry pre-William de Wrotham from the ‘Dering’ family.

Any thoughts, corrections, amendments or suggestions for additional research are most welcome and appreciated – including clarification regarding whether there was an earlier William de Wrotham (purported father of Richard I and William) and the origins of the Wrotham family in Kent and Placetis family in Normandy. Thank you.

Cheers,

Pete

********

14-G - Elizabeth Wroth – Elizabeth was the daughter of William Wroth of Enfield, Middlesex.

b. approx. 1415 – Enfield, Middlesex, England. Elizabeth has at least 1 sibling: (1) John of Enfield ((ob. 2 or 20 E. IV.) and m. to Elizabeth Lewknor/Lewkenor daughter of Sir Roger. They had a son John or Thomas of Enfield (ob. 6 or 9 H. VIII.) m. to Margaret or Johanna Newdigate daughter of Richard. (source: Wroth of Enfield, Wrothe of Petherton Park and Archaeologia Cantiana pedigrees below)
d. approx. 1465 – Metfield (?), Suffolk, England

The book, ‘Middlesex pedigrees, as collected by Richard Mundy in Harleian ms. no. 1551’, (1914), edited by Sir George John Armytage, published by Mitchell, Hughes and Clarke, London, p. 17, provides a pedigree of the Wroth family from Enfield, Middlesex.
(source: http://www.archive.org/stream/middlesexpedigre65mund#page/16/mode/2up)

The book, ‘The visitations of the county of Somerset, in the years 1531 and 1573, together with additional pedigrees, chiefly from the visitation of 1591’, (1885), by Thomas Benolt, Robert Cooke, England. College of Arms, British Museum, edited by Frederic William Weaver, published by W. Pollard, pp. 91-93, provides a pedigree of the Wroth family from Enfield, Middlesex.
(source: http://books.google.ca/books?id=sf4GAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=%22wm.+de+wrotham,+lord+of+newton%22&source=bl&ots=H39b6BH9ea&sig=0wwOk4j1mS6tSrvefVmwp1pia-4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rUpdT6GuMoPW0QHvxuieAw&sqi=2&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22wm.%20de%20wrotham%2C%20lord%20of%20newton%22&f=false)

An article, ‘William de Wrotham, Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports’, in the book, ‘Archaeologia Cantiana being Transactions of the Kent Archaeology Society’, (1878), Vol. XII, by Canon Scott Robertson, printed for the Society by Mitchell & Hughes, London, pp. 310-16, provides a history and pedigree of the of the Wrotham/Wroth family.
(source: http://www.archive.org/stream/archaeologiacant12kent/archaeologiacant12kent_djvu.txt)

The book, ‘The Genealogist’, (1880), edited by George W. Marshall, Vol. IV, printed by George Bell and Sons, London, pp. 106-108, critiques the Archaeologia Cantiana article above.
(source: http://archive.org/stream/genealogist04mars#page/n5/mode/2up)

15-G - William Wroth, Esquire, M.P. – William was from Durants, Middlesex and Newton, Somerset. (ob. 28 H. VI). Ob. 28 May temp. H. 6, 22 years old at the death of his father. (source: Wroth of Enfield, Wrothe of Petherton Park and Archaeologia Cantiana pedigrees above).

b. approx. 1389 – London, England and baptized in October 1389 in the church of All Hallows, Honey Lane, London. (source: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-william-1408; http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=7942)
m.
d. approx. May 8, 1450 – Somersetshire, England. He is buried on the north side of the chancel of the parish church of Bridgwater, Somersetshire. (source: http://www.archive.org/stream/historyantiqutit03colluoft/historyantiqutit03colluoft_djvu.txt; http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=7942)

The book, ‘Calendar of the Fine Rolls – Vol. XVIII, Henry VI, A.D. 1445-1452’, (1939), published for the Public Record Office by His Majesty’s Stationery Office, states the following with respect to William Wroth:

“p. 133. 28 Henry VI. Membrane 31. Writs of diem clausit extremum, after the death of the following persons, directed to the escheators in the counties named: - ... May 8, 1450. Leicester. William Wrothe, esquire; Somerset; Essex and Hertford; Middlesex; London (Thomas Chalton, mayor and escheator).

p. 201. January 12, 1451. Membrane 18. Order to the escheator in the county of Somerset to take the fealty of John Wroth esquire, son and heir of William Wroth esquire, and cause him to have full seisin of all the lands which the said William held of the king in chief or was seised of in his demesne as of fee on the day of his death, as the king for ½ mark paid in the hanaper has respited his homage until Michaelmas next.

p. 177. 29 Henry VI. Membrane 34. Writs of diem clausit extremum, after the death of the following persons, directed to the escheators in the counties named: - ... January 28, 1451. Almerica late the wife of William Wrothe; Middlesex.” (source: http://archive.org/stream/calendaroffinero18greauoft#page/176/mode/2up)

The book, ‘History of Parliament – Biographies of the Members of the Commons House 1439-1509’, (1936), by Colonel the Right Honourable Josiah C. Wedgwood, in collaboration with Anne D. Holt, published by His Majesty’s Stationery Office, London, pp. 973-74, states the following with respect to William Wrothe:

“Wroth, William (1395-1450); of Durance in Enfield, and of Newton-Wrothe, Som. M.P. Middlesex 1437, 1445-6.
S. and h. of William Wrothe of the same, M.P. Mdsx. (d. 1410).(12)
He lived at Durance, Mdsx.; elector, Mdsx. 1420, 1426, 1429, 1432; and was sworn to the peace in Mdsx. 1434; Collins(12) says that he lived mostly at Newton by Bridgwater.

(1) Collinson, Somerset, iii. 63-67.

D. shortly before 8 May 1450 when his writ diem clausit was issued to the eschrs. of Somerset, Essex, Herts. and Middlesex;(1) buried at Bridgwater, where there was a stone bearing the date of his death and that he married a da. of John Mortimer, esq.(2) If so, she was the Amery who died, his widow, shortly before 5 Feb. 1451, when her writ diem clausit was issued to the eschr. of Norfolk and Suffolk.(3)

In May 1456 licence was granted for John Wrothe esq. s. and h. of William Wrothe, decd., to settle Newton-Pleysey (in N. Petherton), Som., on himself and Elizabeth, da. of Sir Roger Lewkenore, with remainder to his own right heirs. Long after a Thomas Wrothe of Durance was kntd. in 1547.

(1) Fine Roll, 28 Hen. VI (m.31).
(2) See note (12) on p. 973.
(3) ibid. 29 Hen.VI (m.33).”

William's IPM was published in very abbreviated form in the Record Society edition in 1828 (Calendarium Inquisitionem Post Mortem, vol. 4, p.240, 28 Henry VI [1449-50]). There is no entry for Averia or versions.

16-G - William Wroth, King’s Esquire, M.P. – William was from Enfield, Middlesex. (ob. 8 Sept. 9 H. 4). (ob. 10 H. IV.). (source: Wroth of Enfield, Wrothe of Petherton Park and Archaeologia Cantiana pedigrees above). He is described as being of Enfield, Middlesex and Newton Plecy, Somerset. (source: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-william-1408). Apparently, William inherited only his mother’s property. (source: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-john-1396)

b. – William has at least 2 half-siblings: (1) Sir John (M.P. for Middlesex, ob. 8 H. IV. He married Margaret [Willington/Willinton/Wellington – who is elsewhere identified as the wife of his son John or] Buckland and had the following children: John and Elizabeth [and another 2 sons and 2 daughters (source: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-john-1396)]; and (2) Agnes (she married Sir Pagan Tibbetofte/Pain Tibetot). (source: Wroth of Enfield, Wrothe of Petherton Park and Archaeologia Cantiana pedigrees above)
m.
d. September 9, 1408 (source: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-william-1408; http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=7942) or September 17, 1408 (source: ‘Calendar of the Inquisitions Post Mortem, and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, Vol. 19, 7-14 Henry IV (1405-1413), p. 109)

The website ‘History of Parliament online’ provides biographies with respect to William Wroth and his brother John Wroth
(source: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-william-1408)
(source: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-john-1396)

The book, ‘Calendar of the Fine Rolls preserved in the Public Record Office’, (1931), Vol. XII, Henry IV. – 1399-1405, published by His Majesty’s Stationery Office, London, p. 147, 3 Henry IV. (1401), Membrane 17 – cont., confirms William Wroth, esquire, as the son and heir of his mother Maud and, p. 231, 5 Henry IV. (1403), Membrane 15 – cont., as Sheriff of Somerset and Dorset
(source: http://archive.org/stream/calendaroffiner12greauoft#page/146/mode/2up)

The book, ‘Calendar of the Inquisitions Post Mortem, and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, Vol. 19, 7-14 Henry IV (1405-1413), edited by J. L. Kirby, HMSO, London, p. 189, states the following with respect to William Wrothe, Esquire:

“William Wrothe, Esquire
517. Writ 17 Nov. 1408.
Somerset. Inquisition. Bridgewater. 1 April 1409.
He held in his demesne as a fee of the king in chief by knight service a third part of the manor of North Newton with the advowson of the chapel at the third presentation, annual value 16 marks; and two tenements in Exton and Hawkridge with the advowsons of those places at the third presentations, annually value 2 marks.

He died on 17 Sept. 1408. William his son and next heir is aged 18 years and more.

C 137/71, no. 18
E 149/94, no. 7
E 152/427, no. 5”

17-G - John Wroth, ‘the younger’, J.P., M.P. – John was of Epping, Essex and Enfield, Middlesex. John was married twice. His first wife was N.N. John’s son from his first marriage was John. His second wife was Matilda (or Maud) Durant who married a second time in approx. 1376 to Baldwin de Radington, M.P. (source: Wroth of Enfield, Wrothe of Petherton Park and Archaeologia Cantiana pedigrees above, http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-william-1408; http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-john-1396; Michael Andrews-Reading blog post dated December 3, 2005 - http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_thread/thread/9d70ef7ae059a97d/2e0587333990dab0)

b.
m. by 1353 (source: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=26951; Visitation of the county of Rutland pedigree below; http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=26951)
d. 1375 - (source: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-john-1396; by 1376 (source: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=26951)

17-G - Matilda Durant – Matilda (or Maud) was the daughter and heir of Thomas Durant of Enfield, Middlesex and Newton Plecy, Somerset. (source: Wroth of Enfield, Wrothe of Petherton Park and Archaeologia Cantiana pedigrees above; http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-william-1408; Michael Andrews-Reading blog post dated December 3, 2005 - http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_thread/thread/9d70ef7ae059a97d/2e0587333990dab0)

b. approx. 1337-38 – Enfield, Middlesex, England. (source: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-william-1408; ‘Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, (1916), Vol. IX, Edward III, printed under the authority of His Majesty’s Stationery Office by The Hereford Times Limited, London, p. 311)
d. before December 7, 1401 (source: ‘Calendar of the Fine Rolls preserved in the Public Record Office’, (1931), Vol. XII, Henry IV. – 1399-1405, published by His Majesty’s Stationery Office, London, p. 147, 3 Henry IV. (1401), Membrane 17 – cont.)

18-G - Thomas Durant – Thomas was of Enfield, Middlesex and Newton Plecy, Somerset. (source: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-william-1408)

b. approx. 1310 (source: ‘Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, (1909), Vol. VII, Edward III, printed for His Majesty’s Stationery Office by Mackie and Co. Ld., London, pp. 359-60)
m. 1333-34 (source: Visitation of Hampshire pedigree below)
d. Enfield, Middlesex, England – May 8-11, 1349 (source: ‘Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, (1916), Vol. IX, Edward III, printed under the authority of His Majesty’s Stationery Office by The Hereford Times Limited, London, p. 311)

The book, ‘The Visitation of the county of Rutland in the year 1618-19: Taken by William Camden, Clarenceaux king of arms Volume 3 of Publications of the Harleian Society’, (1870), by William Camden, College of Arms (Great Britain), published by the Harleian Society, pp. 40-44, provides a pedigree of the Durant family.
(source: http://books.google.ca/books?id=SBys70CiCosC&pg=PA40&dq=%22walter+durant%22+%22sussex%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nNBnT7qRBafI0AGH1NXtCA&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22walter%20durant%22%20%22sussex%22&f=false)

The book, ‘The history and antiquities of the County of Rutland’, (1684), by James Wright, printed for Bennet Griffin, London, p. 40, provides a pedigree of the Durant family.
(source: http://books.google.ca/books?id=V0EjAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=%22sir+walter+durant%22&source=bl&ots=GNhpABNxEP&sig=-cIJJfXV2NmsdDGqk3tDrzBuXJg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Xc9nT7HFC4H50gHezPW2CQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22sir%20walter%20durant%22&f=false)

The book, ‘Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, (1916), Vol. IX, Edward III, printed under the authority of His Majesty’s Stationery Office by The Hereford Times Limited, London, p. 311, sets forth the IPM of ‘Thomas Duraunt’.
(source: http://archive.org/stream/cu31924011387879#page/n341/mode/2up)

19-G - Richard Durant – Richard was from Enfield, Middlesex and Lord of the 3rd part of Newton, Plecy, Somerset.

b. – approx. 1285-1293 (source: see ‘Knights of Edward I’, Vol. I [A to E.], published by The Harleian Society, est. 1869, Vol. LXXX for the year 1929, notices collected by Rev. C. Moor, p. 294) or approx. 1380 (source: ‘Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other analogous documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, (1908), Vol. V, Edward II., printed for His Majesty’s Stationery Office by Mackie and Co. Ld, London, p. 192). Richard is the eldest son and has at least 3 siblings: (1) John (second son and m. to the daughter of Sir Charles Lupus as his second wife); (2) Simon (third son); and (3) Michael (fourth son and m. Ellenor, daughter and co-heir of Walter Alett). (source: Visitation of the county of Rutland)
m. 1311-12 (source: Visitation of Hampshire pedigree above)
d. Enfield, Middlesex, England – on or before October 7, 1333 (source: ‘Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, (1909), Vol. VII, Edward III, printed for His Majesty’s Stationery Office by Mackie and Co. Ld., London, pp. 359-60)

The book, ‘Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, (1909), Vol. VII, Edward III, printed for His Majesty’s Stationery Office by Mackie and Co. Ld., London, pp. 359-60, sets forth the IPM of ‘Richard Duraunt of Enefeld’.

20-G - John Durant/Duraunt

b.
m. 1288-89 (source: Visitation of Hampshire pedigree above)
d. August 23, 1293 (source: see ‘Knights of Edward I’, Vol. I [A to E.], published by The Harleian Society, est. 1869, Vol. LXXX for the year 1929, notices collected by Rev. C. Moor, p. 294)

20-G - Avelina/Evelina de Placetis/Plessetis – Avelina was the daughter and co-heiress of William de Placetis.

b. in or before 1268 (source: see ‘Knights of Edward I’, Vol. IV below). Avelina is the second eldest daughter of William. She has at least 3 siblings: (1) Richard (he held a 1/5 knight's fee of the manor of Enfield, Middlesex in 1235, he was called Barbafleta, [b. approx. 1246 (source: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108079&amp;strquery=Plessetis)] d. on or before March 28, 1289; seized of the manors of Newton Forester and Exton in Somerset (1285-86). His wife was Margery – source: 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Edward I, File 54', Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 2: Edward I (1906), pp. 441-449 - http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108126) (d. July 1, 1293 (source: ‘Knights of Edward I’, Vol. I [A to E.], published by The Harleian Society, est. 1869, Vol. LXXX for the year 1929, notices collected by Rev. C. Moor, p. 294)); (2) Sabina (eldest daughter and m. to Nicholas Pech/Peche/Pecche/Peach and had sons Nicholas and Richard); and (3) Emme (third daughter and m. to John Heryon/Heyron/Heron/Hearne who died 1326-27).
d. approx. May 21, 1312 (source: see ‘Knights of Edward I’, Vol. I [A to E.], published by The Harleian Society, est. 1869, Vol. LXXX for the year 1929, notices collected by Rev. C. Moor, p. 294; http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=26951)

The book, ‘Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other analogous documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, (1908), Vol. V, Edward II., printed for His Majesty’s Stationery Office by Mackie and Co. Ld, London, p. 192, sets forth the IPM of Avelina Durant in 1312.
(source: http://www01.us.archive.org/stream/calendarofinquis05grea#page/192/mode/2up)

The book, 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Edward I, File 54', Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 2: Edward I (1906), pp. 441-449, sets forth the IPM of ‘Richard de Plessetis alias de Plescetis, de Pleysetis’.
(source: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108126)

The book, ‘Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and Other Analogous Documents Preserved in the Public Record Office’, (1912), Edward I., Vol. III, printed by The Hereford Times Limited, Hereford, p. 58, sets forth the IPM of ‘Margery, late the wife of Richard de Plessetis alias de Plesettis’ in 1293.
(source: http://archive.org/stream/cu31924011387812#page/n103/mode/2up)

21-G - William de Placetis/Plessitis/Plessetis

b. – approx. 1220 (source: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108079&amp;strquery=Plessetis). William has at least 1 sibling: (1) John (who is the ancestor of the Placeys of Wimborne, Dorset [Hutchins, III. 166, 579] – source: Wrothe of Petherton Park pedigree above).
m.
d. on or before October 6, 1274 (source: The book, 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Edward I, File 7', Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 2: Edward I (1906), pp. 58-65 - http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108079&amp;strquery=Plessetis)

The book, 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Henry III, File 11', Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 1: Henry III (1904), pp. 52-57, sets forth the IPM of ‘Richard de Wrotham’ which references his nephew ‘William de Pleisseiz’.
(source: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108007&amp;strquery=Wrotham)

The book, 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Edward I, File 7', Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 2: Edward I (1906), pp. 58-65, sets forth the IPM of ‘William de Plessetis alias de Plescys’.
(source: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108079&amp;strquery=Plessetis)

22-G - Sir Hugh de Pacetis/Plessetis/Plesetis – Hugh was a kinsman and most likely the brother of John, Earl of Warwick. (source: ‘The history and antiquities of the county of Somerset (1791)’, Vol. 3, by John Collinson and Edmund Rack, published by R. Cruttwell, Bath, England, p. 64; ‘Oxford Dictionary of National Biography’, (2004), in association with The British Academy, Vol. 44 (Phelps-Poston), edited by H. C. G. Matthew and Brian Harrison, published by Oxford University Press, pp. 577-79)

b. Normandy, France (source: ‘Matthew Paris’s English History from the year 1235 to 1273’, (1854), Vol. III, translated from the Latin by Rev. J. A. Giles, published by Henry G. Bohn, London, pp. 93-94, states that Hugh’s brother John, Earl of Warwick, “was a Norman by birth” - http://archive.org/stream/matthewparissen02rishgoog#page/n102/mode/2up)
m.
d. was still alive October 11, 1240 (source: The website, ‘http://www.teachergenealogist007.com’ - 19989516. Earl John de Plescy & 19989517. Christine de Saundford)

The book, ‘Somerset Record Society, Vol. XIV, Two Cartularies of the Benedictine Abbeys of Muchelney and Athelney in the County of Somerset’, (1899), edited by E. H. Bates, printed by Harrison and Sons, London, p. 134, #27 – Extracts from the Register of the Abbey of Athelney, references Hugh and Newton-Plecy.
(source: http://archive.org/stream/twocartulariesof00mulcrich#page/134/mode/2up)

Hugh’s brother is purported to have been John, Earl of Warwick. The book, 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Henry III, File 28', Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 1: Henry III (1904), pp. 165-171, sets forth the IPM of the said John.
(source: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108024&amp;strquery=Plessetis)

22-G - Muriel de Wrotham

b. – [approx. 1200-1205]. Muriel has at least 4 siblings: (1) Richard (b. approx. 1200 (source: ‘Two Cartularies of the Benedictine Abbeys of Muchelney and Athelney in the County of Somerset’, (1899), edited by E. H. Bates, printed by Harrison and Sons, London,) and d. 1250) (m. to Margaret d. of John Shopland – see - Wrothe of Petherton Park pedigree above and/or Cecilia (mentioned in the Fine Roll 35 Hen. III m. 13) – see - Archaeologia Cantiana article above, p. 312); (2) Constance/Custance (b. approx. 1210) (m. to John le Blund); (3) Emma (m. to Geoffrey de Scoland/Skolande – they had a son Geoffrey b. approx. 1226); and (4) Christina/Christiana (b. approx. 1220) (m. to Thomas Picot/Pikot). (source: Wrothe of Petherton Park and Archaeologia Cantiana pedigrees above; ‘The history and antiquities of the county of Somerset (1791)’, Vol. 3, by John Collinson and Edmund Rack, published by R. Cruttwell, Bath, England, pp. 55 and 64; 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Henry III, File 11', Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 1: Henry III (1904), pp. 52-57 - http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108007&amp;strquery=Wrotham)
d. on or before December 27, 1250 (source: The book, 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Edward I, File 7', Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 2: Edward I (1906), pp. 58-65 - http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108079&amp;strquery=Plessetis)

The book, ‘Somerset Record Society, Vol. XIV, Two Cartularies of the Benedictine Abbeys of Muchelney and Athelney in the County of Somerset’, (1899), edited by E. H. Bates, printed by Harrison and Sons, London, provides evidence that Richard II de Wrotham, uncle of Geoffrey de Scoland (and ‘our’ William de Placetis) was the son of Richard I de Wrotham (see pp. 63-66) and thus ‘our’ Maud de Wrotham, Richard II’s sister, was likewise the daughter of Richard I de Wrotham. See also the Henry III Fine Rolls Project below for additional confirmation.
(source: http://archive.org/stream/twocartulariesof00mulcrich#page/n7/mode/2up)

The website of the ‘Henry III Fine Rolls Project’, states the following with respect to the Wrotham family:

2 HENRY III (28 October 1217–27 October 1218). Fine Roll C 60/9, 2 HENRY III (1217–1218).
Membrane 7
Image of membrane 7

“22
17 Feb. Ilminster. Somerset and Dorset. John Marshal has made fine with the king by 60 m. for having the custody and marriage of Richard, son and heir of Richard of Wrotham, who is the heir of William of Wrotham, from the lay fees and tenements formerly of William, to whom pertained the custody of the forest of Somerset as of fee. Order to the sheriff of Dorset and Somerset to cause John to have full seisin without delay of the lands and tenements formerly of Richard and William with custody of the forest. Because etc. Witness the earl.”
(source: http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_009.html#it022_007)

23-G – Richard I de Wrotham

b. – Richard has at least 1 brother: (1) William de Wrotham (d. 1217/18 – before February 16, 1218). (source: ‘The history and antiquities of the county of Somerset (1791)’, Vol. 3, by John Collinson and Edmund Rack, published by R. Cruttwell, Bath, England, pp. 55 and 64; ‘Oxford Dictionary of National Biography’, (2004), in association with The British Academy, Vol. 60 (Wolmark-Zuylestein), edited by H. C. G. Matthew and Brian Harrison, published by Oxford University Press, pp. 545-46)
m.
d. before February 16, 1218 when John Marshall received the wardship of his son Richard who was the nephew and heir of William de Wrotham (source: ‘Oxford Dictionary of National Biography’, (2004), in association with The British Academy, Vol. 60 (Wolmark-Zuylestein), edited by H. C. G. Matthew and Brian Harrison, published by Oxford University Press, pp. 545-46); or approx. 1224 (source: Archaeologia Cantiana article above)

24-G – Geoffrey/Godwin – Godwin held land in Shipbourne, Kent, near Wrotham, and was perhaps a tenant of the Archbishops of Canterbury. (source: ‘Oxford Dictionary of National Biography’, (2004), in association with The British Academy, Vol. 60 (Wolmark-Zuylestein), edited by H. C. G. Matthew and Brian Harrison, published by Oxford University Press, pp. 545-46). (other source information for Geoffrey: Wrothe of Petherton Park and Archaeologia Cantiana pedigrees above; ‘The history and antiquities of the county of Somerset (1791)’, Vol. 3, by John Collinson and Edmund Rack, published by R. Cruttwell, Bath, England, p. 55)

[pd...@peterdale.com]

Greetings,

I have continued to conduct some additional research on the Plessetis/Placetis/Plescy family of Somerset. Notwithstanding Collinson’s statement (‘The history and antiquities of the county of Somerset (1791)’, Vol. 3, by John Collinson and Edmund Rack, published by R. Cruttwell, Bath, England, p. 64 - http://archive.org/stream/historyantiqutit03colluoft#page/64/mode/2up) that William de Plescy’s father was Hugh de Plescy, brother of John, Earl of Warwick and his mother Muriel, I have found no evidence to corroborate this. We know from the IPM of William’s uncle Richard de Wrotham that his father must have been a Plescy and mother a Wrotham but I have seen nothing to identify his mother as Muriel or his father as Hugh (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108007&amp;strquery=Wrotham).

I would appreciate any assistance in corroborating the father (and mother’s first name) of William de Plescy (b. approx. 1220 and d. 1274).

I’ve also seen reference to his will:

(1) The book, 'Deeds: B.2701 - B.2800', A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds: Volume 2 (1894), pp. 327-337, states the following with respect to William de Plessetis:

“Somers. B. 2771. Receipt by Sir Richard de Plessetis, steward of the king’s forest in Somersetshire, for the payment to him by Sir John, prior of Meydenebradelegh, 'ordinator' of the will of William de Plessetis and by Sir James de Plessetis, rector of the church of Samforde, executor of the said William, and by the other co-executors, of 100l. 9s. 1d., in return for which he binds himself to maintain a chaplain in the chapel of Nyweton for ever. Witnesses:—Giles de Flory, William Poleyn, and others (named). Thirteenth century. Seal, with impression of stag. (source: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64285)

(2) The book 'North Petherton: Churches', A History of the County of Somerset: Volume 6: Andersfield, Cannington, and North Petherton Hundreds (Bridgwater and neighbouring parishes) (1992), pp. 308-312:

The chapel at North Newton was granted in 1186 with the mother church of North Petherton to Buckland priory by William of Erleigh. (fn. 87) Under the will of his uncle William de Plessis (d. c. 1274) Sir Richard de Plessis established a chantry in the chapel, (fn. 88) [S.R.S. xxx, pp. 331-2; P.R.O., E 210/1987] to which as a perpetual chantry or as a free chapel he and his successors appointed chaplains until the Dissolution. (fn. 89). (source: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=18689)

In addition, Collinson references a will of Richard de Plescy (Barbafluta) (http://archive.org/stream/historyantiqutit03colluoft#page/64/mode/2up) son of the abovementioned William.

I’d appreciate any insight as to whether one or both of the above 2 wills (for lack of a better term) have been recorded, or the information set forth therein detailed somewhere or if they are otherwise available. Thank you.

Regards,

Pete

[pd...@peterdale.com]

Greetings,

I have further revised my information regarding John Durant (d. 1293), husband of Avelina de Plescy, and Great-Grandfather of Maud Durant (b. 1337/8 and d. before 1401 who married 1st John Wroth the younger, J.P., M.P. (d. 1375) and 2nd Baldwin de Radington, M.P.) and 3rd Great-Grandfather of William Wroth, Esq. (b. 1389 and d. 1450) of Enfield, Middlesex and Newton Plescy, Somerset.

I propose that John Durant is the son of Adam Durant of Enfield rather than Sir Walter Durant, Bailiff of Archendowne Forest, Sussex as set forth in written pedigrees. See –

(1) ‘William de Wrotham, Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports’, in the book, ‘Archaeologia Cantiana being Transactions of the Kent Archaeology Society’, (1878), Vol. XII - http://archive.org/stream/archaeologiacant12kent#page/314/mode/1up,

(2) ‘The Visitation of the county of Rutland in the year 1618-19’, Volume 3 of Publications of the Harleian Society’, (1870), pp. 40-44- http://books.google.ca/books?id=SBys70CiCosC&pg=PA40&dq=%22walter+durant%22+%22sussex%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nNBnT7qRBafI0AGH1NXtCA&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22walter%20durant%22%20%22sussex%22&f=false and,

(3) ‘The history and antiquities of the County of Rutland’, (1684), by James Wright, printed for Bennet Griffin, London, p. 40 - http://books.google.ca/books?id=V0EjAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=%22sir+walter+durant%22&source=bl&ots=GNhpABNxEP&sig=-cIJJfXV2NmsdDGqk3tDrzBuXJg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Xc9nT7HFC4H50gHezPW2CQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22sir%20walter%20durant%22&f=false.

I look forward to any thoughts, corrections, additions or other insights and thank you in advance for reviewing this post.

Cheers,

Pete

20-G - John Durant/Duraunt

b.
m.

d. August 23, 1293 (source: see ‘Knights of Edward I’, Vol. I)

The book, ‘A Calendar to the Feet of Fines for London & Middlesex’ (1892), Vol. I, Richard I. to Richard III., by W. J. Hardy and W. Page, printed by Hardy & Page, London, states the following with respect to an ‘Adam Durant’ and ‘John, son of Adam Durand, of Eynfeud’:

“p. 28. Henry III. 217. Edward de Herlawe, and Adam Durant, and Margery, his wife. Premises in Enefeld. Anno [28.] [1243-44]”

“p. 51. Edward I. 30. Roger, prior of the New Hospital, without Bishopsgate, London, and John, son of Adam Durand, of Eynfeud. The service exacted by Elias de Honylane from the said John, for his free tenement in Enefeud; and also as to land in Enefeud, which John acknowledges to be the right of the same prior, and his church of St. Mary, without Bishopsgate. Anno 3. [1274-75]” (source: http://www02.us.archive.org/stream/acalendartofeet00unkngoog#page/n57/mode/2up; http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=805)

The book, ‘The History of St. Bartholomew’s Hospital’, (1918), by Norman Moore, Vol. 1, printed by C. Arthur Pearson Limited, London, pp. 418, 434, 435 and 509, states the following with respect to an Adam and John Durant and Richard de Plesseto/ Plessetis/Pleset/de Barleflet:

p. 418 – see - http://archive.org/stream/historyofstbarth01mooruoft#page/418/mode/2up

Note: Please see references to Adam/Ada Durant and Ricardo de Plesseto in the second paragraph and footnote 2.

p. 434 – see - http://archive.org/stream/historyofstbarth01mooruoft#page/434/mode/2up

Note: Please see references to ‘Adam Durant: John his son’ and Richard of Barleflet in footnote 2 as witnesses to 2 charters.

p. 435 – see - http://archive.org/stream/historyofstbarth01mooruoft#page/434/mode/2up

Note: Please see reference to Richard of Pleset in footnote 1.

p. 509 – see - http://archive.org/stream/historyofstbarth01mooruoft#page/508/mode/2up

Note: Please see references to Richard de Plessetis and John Duraund in footnote 1.

Query: Whether John Durant is actually the son of Adam Durant of Enfield, Middlesex rather than, as according to the written pedigrees, Sir Walter Durant, Bailiff of Archendowne Forest, Sussex. I have found no independent evidence to corroborate Walter as John’s father. The references above to Adam and John Durant and Richard de Placetis appearing together as witnesses to charters would seem to corroborate this as John married Richard’s sister Avelina.

Further, I note that John Durant (c. 1274-75) and William Wroth (c. 1393), John’s 3rd Great-Grandson, are both referenced in disputes with New Hospital, without Bishopsgate, London (as previously set forth above). It does not appear that the property in question is the same but more inquiry is needed. See:

The book, ‘A Calendar to the Feet of Fines for London & Middlesex’ (1892), Vol. I, Richard I. to Richard III., by W. J. Hardy and W. Page, printed by Hardy & Page, London, states the following with respect to a ‘John, son of Adam Durand, of Eynfeud’:

“p. 51. Edward I. 30. Roger, prior of the New Hospital, without Bishopsgate, London, and John, son of Adam Durand, of Eynfeud. The service exacted by Elias de Honylane from the said John, for his free tenement in Enefeud; and also as to land in Enefeud, which John acknowledges to be the right of the same prior, and his church of St. Mary, without Bishopsgate. Anno 3. [1274-75]” (source: http://www02.us.archive.org/stream/acalendartofeet00unkngoog#page/n57/mode/2up; http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=805)

The book, 'All Hallows Honey Lane 11/12', Historical gazetteer of London before the Great Fire: Cheapside; parishes of All Hallows Honey Lane, St Martin Pomary, St Mary le Bow, St Mary Colechurch and St Pancras Soper Lane (1987), pp. 102-104, states the following with respect to the William Wroth:

In 1393 the prior of the New Hospital of St. Mary without Bishopsgate brought actions of intrusion (presumably for disseisin of rent, but the actions were never prosecuted) against William Wroth, Baldwin Radyngton, knight, and his wife Maud, Thomas Veel, John Acton, clerk, and Paul Midylton, into his free tenement in the parish. William Wroth held the property, described as an inn (hospitium) called le Bullehed with 2 shops in Cheapside in this parish, on his death in 1408; it was valued at £5 p.a. (source: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=7942)

Lastly, I note that the Inquisition Post Mortem for a ‘Margaret, late the wife of Thomas Duraunt’, c. 1337, references Thomas as deceased. This Thomas Duraunt appears to be the one referenced in the above written Pedigree from the visitation of Hampshire (source: http://archive.org/stream/pedigreesfromvis64beno#page/122/mode/2up), i.e. his wife is named Margaret and references to her kin as ‘Tichibourne’ . However, he is dead by 1337 and ‘our’ Thomas Durant died in 1349. Thus, I propose, that the pedigree is in error as a result of 2 similarly named Thomas Durants being confused and that ‘our’ Thomas is the son of John and grandson of Adam Durant of Enfield, Middlesex.

The book, ‘Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other analogous documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, (1913), Vol. VIII, Edward III, printed under the authority of His Majesty’s Stationery Office by The Hereford Times Limited, Hereford, pp. 59-60, sets forth the IPM of ‘Margaret, late the wife of Thomas Duraunt’ and ‘Thomas son of Thomas Duraunt’ – see - http://www01.us.archive.org/stream/calendarofinquis08grea#page/58/mode/2up)

[pd...@peterdale.com]

Just a further tidbit re ‘our’ Thomas Durant, i.e. of Enfield. According to the Feet of Fines, he was married to Agnes in 1348-49.

Cheers,

Pete

The book, ‘A Calendar to the Feet of Fines for London & Middlesex’ (1892), Vol. I, Richard I. to Richard III., by W. J. Hardy and W. Page, printed by Hardy & Page, London, p. 125, states the following with respect to a ‘Thomas Duraunt, of Enefeld’:

“Edward III. 247. Thomas Duraunt, of Enefeld, and Agnes, his wife, and Bartholomew Fourneux, and Agnes, his wife. Premises in Enefeld. Anno 22. [1348-49]” (source: http://www02.us.archive.org/stream/acalendartofeet00unkngoog#page/n131/mode/2up; http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=805)

[Peter G. M. Dale]

Greetings,

After continued review of the Wroth family and much assistance and insight from Mr. Chris Phillips (which is sincerely appreciated), I now believe that John Wroth, the elder (who purported d. in 1376), has been incorrectly identified in printed pedigrees, 'History of Parliament online' and other descriptions of the Wroth family as the father of John Wroth, the younger (who d. 1375). Mr. Phillips identified, in a series of e-mails to me, that, in fact, John the elder was a contemporary of John the younger and not his father. John the younger was, perhaps, a nephew, cousin or other close relative. John the elder married Margaret de Enfield on, approximately, February 1, 1350 (source: 'Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office', (1938), Vol. XII, Edward III, published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, pp. 241-42, IPM #256 of 'Francis son and heir of John de Enefeld'.) and died on August 31, 1396 (source: 'Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office', Vol. XVII, 15-23 Richard II, published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, IPM #921-923 of 'John Wroth').

John Wroth, the elder, had a son Sir John (b. c 1366-68, m. by 1391, d. August 21, 1407) and daughter Agnes (m. Sir Payn Tiptoft and had a son Sir John Tiptoft who ultimately inherited the Wroth family estate). John the elder (or his son Sir John) may have had an additional 2 sons (Robert and Richard) and 2 daughters. However, I have not identified primary evidence to support this.

Sir John, John the elder's son, married Margaret, daughter of Sir John Wellington, and had at least 2 children including John (b. September 24, 1390, m. Joyce Colepepir (d. 1422 - sister of Walter Colepepir) and d. 1412) and Elizabeth (b. approx. 1390 and d. 1413). John, d. 1412, died childless and Elizabeth, his sister, married Sir William Palton and likewise died childless. Sir John Tiptoft, John and Elizabeth's 1st cousin, was Elizabeth's heir (he was the son of their aunt, Agnes, daughter of John Wroth, the elder).

(sources: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-john-1396; http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/wroth-sir-john-1366-1407; 'Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office', Vol. XX, 1-5 Henry V (1413-1418), edited by J. L. Kirby, published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, p. 38-39, IPM #115 of 'Elizabeth wife of William Palton, knight'; 'Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office', Vol. XVII, 15-23 Richard II, published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, IPM #921-923 of 'John Wroth'; 'Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office', Vol. XIX, 7-14 Henry IV (1405-1413), edited by J. L. Kirby, published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, London, IPM #203 of 'John Wroth, Knight' and IPM #946 of 'John son of John Wroth, Knight'; 'Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office', Vol. XXII, 1 to 5 Henry VI (1422-1427), edited by Kate Parkin, published by The Boydell Press, London, IPM #12 of 'Joyce wife of Hugh Halsham, Knight'; post by Michael Andrews-Reading on the 'soc.genealogy.medieval' blog dated December 3, 2005 - http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_thread/thread/9d70ef7ae059a97d/2e0587333990dab0).

I suspect that John Wroth, the younger, was a nephew or cousin of John Wroth, the elder, as per the following Feet of Fine:

"CP 25/1/255/50, number 9.
County: Wiltshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One month from St Michael, 35 Edward III [27 October 1361].
Parties: John Wroth' the elder and Margaret, his wife, querents, by John Videlu, put in their place, and William de Gilyngham and Agnes, his wife, deforciants.
Property: 6 messuages, 2 carucates of land, 10 acres of meadow, 180 acres of pasture, pasture for 4 oxen and 13 shillings and 4 pence of rent in Eneford' and Langefyfyde.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: William and Agnes have granted to John and Margaret the tenements and pasture and have rendered them to them in the court, to hold to John and Margaret and the heirs of the body of John, of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, remainder to John Wroth' the cousin (le Cosyn) and his heirs.
Warranty: Warranty by William and Agnes and the heirs of Agnes.
For this: John Wroth' the elder and Margaret have given them 100 marks of silver."

Below I set forth certain of my correspondence with Mr. Phillips which discusses in more detail why John Wroth, the elder (d. 1396) was not the father of John Wroth, the young (d. 1375).

Mr. Phillips e-mail on May 3, 2014:

"It seems to me that there may be an alternative reconstruction of the pedigree which avoids some of the chronological strangeness of the one you have while remaining consistent with the evidence.

There are two references to John Wroth and Margaret, his wife, one in the IPM of Margaret Palton (referring to a fine of 1369) and the other in the IPM of Thomas de Buckland. The pedigree you have is based on the assumption that these refer to the John who was the grandson of the John who married Margaret de Enfield. But it seems to me that it may be possible that they refer to the grandfather, not the grandson. If the reference to John being 40 years and more in 1379 can be taken as a round figure which would allow him to be in his late 40s, for example, then it would be possible for John to be around 20 when he married Margaret de Enfield (which would be believable, as her eldest surviving son by her previous marriage was aged only 2).

Then it seems to me ... that the following two generations can work in the same way as the final two generations you have. The dates of death would be as given in the VCH account of Enfield, with the John who married Margaret de Enfield dying in 1396, perhaps around 70, his son dying in 1407, leaving his heir a minor to die in 1412.

What obviously wouldn't be possible on this chronology is for the husband of Maud Durant to be the son of the first John by an earlier marriage. But it would be possible for him to be a younger brother of the same name (not uncommon in those days), with the two men being distinguished as John Wroth the elder and John Wroth the younger, as was normal for brothers of the same name.

One thing that I think would fit better in this scheme is the will of John Wroth dated 1374, which certainly gives the impression that all his sons are under age, whereas in the current pedigree his eldest son would be in his mid-30s. The other thing that I think would be less strange is the fine of 1369 referred to in Elizabeth Palton's IPM. On the current interpretation the parties are Francis de Enfield and - although his stepfather John Wroth and his stepbrother John Wroth would still have been living - his step-nephew John Wroth and his wife. I think it would be far more natural if it were just his mother and stepfather.

Of course, it may be that you can immediately come up with a piece of evidence that doesn't fit this scenario. But if not, I think it may be worth considering as a reconstruction with less chronological disparity between husbands and wives and a more natural interpretation of some of the records."

Mr. Phillips e-mail on May 5, 2014:

"I have been looking through the material you sent. Obviously there is a huge amount to take in, but one detail did strike me as providing strong confirmation that the "received" pedigree is not correct. The Wiltshire IPM of Elizabeth Palton (file 3, p. 23) says that she held the manor of Puck Shipton in fee tail by a fine of 1350 by which a grant was made to John Wroth and Margaret, his wife, and the heirs of their bodies. There can't be any doubt that this refers to Margaret de Enfield, as the VCH account of Beechingstoke makes clear (the manor of Puckshipton had been dealt with by John Enfield and Margaret in the 1340s):
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=102775

So if the IPM is correct, it implies that Elizabeth was a descendant of Margaret de Enfield, rather than of a previous wife of her husband John Wroth, which would make the received version of the pedigree impossible. It seems natural to assume that this John and Margaret were the same couple mentioned elsewhere in the same inquisition, which deals with the grant to Sir Thomas Buckland.

I did find it a bit surprising that John, son of the John who died in 1396, was stated to be only 28 or 30 in the IPMs. It appears that he would not have been born until Margaret was at least in her mid-30s."

Mr. Phillips e-mail on May 12, 2014:

"Below is the first instalment of my thoughts (such as they are) on the detailed notes you sent me, starting with the Wroths ...

WROTH

What I've seen has confirmed my feeling that the John Wroth who married Margaret de Enfield must have been the same who died in 1396, and that therefore John Wroth ("the younger") the husband of Maud was not one of the Johns in the senior line that descends from him. I feel the strongest indications of this are:

(1) The settlement made in 1369 on John Wroth and Margaret for their lives, with successive remainders to Francis de Enfield and the heirs of his body, and to the heirs of John Wroth. On the one hand, the IPM of Elizabeth Palton makes it clear that this was her grandfather. But on the other, he was referred to in 1369 (e.g. in the Calendar of Patent Rolls) as John Wroth the elder. It is difficult to see him being described in that way if he was the son of John Wroth the husband of Maud Durant - who did not die until 1374-5.

(2) As mentioned previously, another IPM of Elizabeth Palton says that she held Puckshipton by a settlement made in 1350 on John Wroth and Margaret and the heirs of their bodies, and the VCH account of Beechingstoke makes it clear that the Margaret in question was Margaret de Enfield. But according to the received pedigree Elizabeth would have been a descendant of an earlier marriage of this John Wroth. (One caveat here is that an IPM of her father says that Puckshipton was among manors that had been settled on feoffees, so the terms of the settlement might have been changed. But even so, the text of Elizabeth's IPM must imply that she was believed to be a descendant of John and Margaret.)

(3) A Wiltshire fine of 1361 settled property in Enford and Long Fifield on John Wroth the elder and Margaret and the heirs of their bodies (again recited in Elizabeth Palton's IPM). The VCH account of Enford shows that the de la Folye family held land in the parish, and this is the same family that was associated with Margaret de Enfield in transactions concerning Puckshipton. So this would also appear to be Margaret de Enfield. The IPM specifies the same descent as for Puckshipton, implying (i) that Elizabeth was a descendant of Margaret de Enfield (though the same caveat applies as for Puckshipton, as Fifield was also stated in Elizabeth's father's IPM to have been settled on feoffees) and (ii) that Elizabeth's grandfather was called "the elder" in 1361, when the husband of Maud Durant was living.

(4) As discussed previously, the 1374 will of John Wroth reads as though his sons are all minors.

As to what the relationship of John Wroth "the younger" to the senior line was, I don't think we have any direct evidence. The Wiltshire fine of 1361 included a remainder to John Wroth le cosyn. Perhaps this is an indication that John Wroth "the younger" might have been a cousin (or some other relation that could have been so described) of John Wroth the elder, rather than a brother.

As to the earlier ancestry, the feet of fines show a John and Joan dealing with property in Edmonton c. 1331 and with land in Enfield in c. 1348. If both of these refer to the same couple it seems natural to place them a generation before John the elder and John the younger (if the John who married Margaret de Enfield did survive until 1396 it would obviously be less likely for him to be married and active by 1331). The John who was married to Juliana and at Honey Lane in 1346 ought to be either the predecessor of John the younger, or John the younger himself with an earlier wife. It looks almost as though John the elder and John the younger might themselves have been the sons of two men named John. It's possible the full text of the feet of fines might give us a clue what's going on, but otherwise I think it's difficult to speculate.

It would be nice to be able to show that Margaret de Enfield was somehow related to Sir Thomas Buckland. Unfortunately I can't find any indication of this. The de la Folye family (but not the Bucklands) were associated with Puckshipton and Enford, according to the VCH accounts:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=102775
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=115488

For the places associated with the Bucklands - Brookley (in Brockenhurst), Over and Nether Wallop in Hampshire and Redlynch and Woodfalls (in Downton), Wiltshire - there is no mention of de la Folye:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56898
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56874
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56873
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=115483

I assume the age "40 years and more" in the IPMs of Thomas de Buckland should refer to Margaret rather than John, though the way the calendar is phrased is rather ambiguous. Perhaps it would be worth checking the originals, as the Latin is less likely to be ambiguous."

My reply to Mr. Phillips on May 13, 2014:

"After my second read and a review of my notes, it has become more clear to me that the pedigree, as I had it, was really an attempt to put people around information set forth in IPMS, Fines, etc. as per Collinson and Roskell's proposed pedigree. I also believe, upon reflection, that it created 2 unsubstantiated first marriages (those of John Wroth the elder and John Wroth the younger) and also may have created an entirely fictional individual in Margaret de Buckland. I'm not sure if such an individual is even referenced anywhere. It remains a mystery to me what is the relationship between the Wroth and Buckland families.

Re the 1350 Puckshipton settlement referenced in your e-mail, unless the age reference was to Margaret the wife of John Wroth, the John referenced would have been approximately 11 at said time according to the established pedigree. Your proposed revision to the pedigree also removes the often noted apparent excess of John Wroths at any one time and how they appear to bump into each other generationally.

It is frustrating that there are so many references to John Wroth the elder and the younger with no further identification. As an FYI, I noted in the item where Francis de Enfield establishes his maturity that his property was held by 'John Wroth, citizen of London' (CIPM, (1938), Vol. XII, Edward III, pp. 241-42 - #256 - Francis son and heir of John de Enefeld). A further mystery is how the prior John Wroths including the Alderman, Sheriff, Mayor, John Wroth of Calais, etc., assuming said individual (s?) is not John Wroth the elder (or a combination of other John Wroths), are related. It is also an open question who is the John Wroth who, apparently, died as Alderman in or around 1376."

Mr. Phillips e-mail on May 14, 2014:

"Regarding Margaret "de Buckland", it is strange that she is described in several VCH accounts as the daughter of Thomas, despite the evidence of his IPM. One of the accounts (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56898) even states that he died without issue and then immediately says she was his daughter! I suppose it's possible she was an illegitimate daughter, but I haven't seen any contemporary statement to that effect.

I agree it's difficult to be sure about the references to civic offices held, but I would suspect that most of them in the period 1350-1376 refer to John Wroth the husband of Margaret. I have also seen references to a John Wroth dying in 1376, but I think this is an error, as there is this entry in a Letter-Book:

Renunc Ald'rie per Joh Wrothe.
Eleccio Andr' Pykeman Aldr'i de Billyngesgate.
Monday after the Feast of All Saints [1 Nov.], 50 Edward III. [A. D. 1376], in the presence of Adam Stable, the Mayor, the Aldermen, and many good men of divers misteries, in the Chamber of the Guildhall, came John Wrothe, Alderman of the Ward of Billyngesgate, and declared himself unable to fulfil the duties of his Aldermanry owing to press of business abroad. He therefore surrendered his Aldermanry into the hands of the City, and asked to be discharged. He was thereupon discharged, and on the following day Andrew Pykeman was elected by good men of the said Ward, and on the following Friday was admitted and sworn.
[From: 'Folios xli - l: June 1376 -', Calendar of letter-books of the city of London: H: 1375-1399 (1907), pp. 32-49.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33459]

As he only resigned as an alderman, this could also be John Wroth the husband of Margaret (d. 1396)."

Mr. Phillips e-mail on May 15, 2014:

"While I was at Kew I also checked the references given by the History of Parliament account for Margaret "de Buckland" - CPR, 1374-7, p. 482; CCR, 1377-81, p. 185; VCH Hants, iv. 526; R.C. Hoare, Modern Wilts. (Downton), 37-38; Wilts. Feet of Fines (Wilts. Rec. Soc. xli), 2.

The CPR and CCR do not state a relationship between Margaret and Thomas. Nor does the foot of the fine (which turns out to be one of the ones on my site - CP 25/1/289/52, no 4). The VCH account does say that Margaret was the daughter of Thomas, but refers only to the same fine and to Hoare. I photographed Hoare, pp. 37 and 38. Hoare does call Margaret the daughter and heiress of Thomas, but refers only to what appears to be his IPMs, and also to unspecified fines. It looks as though Hoare may be the source of the belief that Margaret was the daughter of Thomas.

The [Latin] inquisitions of Thomas de Bokeland are interesting in that the text has clearly been altered in both cases. Originally it read "And that [...], of the age of 40 years and more, is his next heir." Then the name has been erased and replaced with "John Wroth' and Margaret, his wife" and "is" has been replaced with "are" (the word for heir/heirs was abbreviated and could bear either interpretation). I would guess that what was originally written was "Margaret the wife of John Wroth'", though I suppose we have no definite proof that it was Margaret, rather than John, who was related to Thomas."

Cheers,

Pete

[MILLARD A.R. via]

> From: Peter G. M. Dale [mailto:peter...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 06 November 2014 20:10

>
> Mr. Phillips e-mail on May 12, 2014:
>

> What I've seen has confirmed my feeling that the John Wroth who married
> Margaret de Enfield must have been the same who died in 1396, and that
> therefore John Wroth ("the younger") the husband of Maud was not one of
> the Johns in the senior line that descends from him.

Perhaps I can throw in one fact that might help in identifying the John who married Maud Durant. Her second husband was Baldwyn de Raddington [1,3], and his IPMs (held 1 & 5 Dec 1401) show that he held a quarter of a knight's fee in chief in North Newton and Exton, Somerset by courtesy of England and the manor of Durrants in Enfield, Middlesex, both with reversion to William Wroth, esquire, son and heir of his wife, aged 28 years and more [2].

So William Wroth, born c.1373 must be the eldest surviving son of Maud and this John Wroth, though he does not appear in your account. There may well be an IPM for William, though I haven't looked, as my interest was in the de Raddington family and whether their appearance in Enfield might be linked to 15th century Redingtons in nearby Hunsdon, Herts.

VCH for Enfield states "Maud ... had married John Wroth by 1353. (fn. 41) By 1376 she was again married, to Sir Baldwin Raddington, (fn. 42)" [3]. So given that you have John the elder marrying Margaret de Enfield in 1350, John the younger who married Maud cannot have been their son, and if John the younger's descendants are not named as the heir(s) in the IPM of John the elder, then John the younger cannot have been the son of John the elder by an earlier marriage.

[1] Visitations of Somerset, https://www.archive.org/stream/visitationsofcou00beno#page/92/mode/1up
[2] Cal IPM vol. 21, nos 576 and 577
[3] http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=26951#p5


Best wishes

Andrew
--
Andrew Millard - A.R.M...@durham.ac.uk
Chair, Trustees of Genuki: www.genuki.org.uk
Maintainer, Genuki Middx + London: www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/MDX/ + ../LND/
Academic Co-ordinator, Guild of One-Name Studies: www.one-name.org
Bodimeade one-name study: community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/Bodimeade/
My genealogy: community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/

[Peter G. M. Dale]

Greetings,

Thank you Andrew for the post and information therein. William Wroth was indeed the eldest surviving son of John Wroth the younger and Maud Durant. I estimate that he was born in the late 1350s or early 1360s. The 1373 date from the IPM of Baldwin Radington is inaccurate based on my review of available evidence (including him being of age in 1382 and his son William II being born in 1389) by approximately 1 decade. Below please find abstracts of the wills of John Wroth the younger (d. 1375), Baldwin Radington (d. 1401), and John the younger's son William Wroth (d. 1408).

Of interest, among other items, in the wills below is:

1. Re the will of John Wroth the younger. The fact that his son William has 2 or more brothers (names unknown) as his father's will refers to his "my boys", "if any of those boys should be dead, then their portion to be divided among the survivors" and "the boys to remain in the guardianship of John Wroth, the elder, and sir John Ekyndon, vicar of the church of Enefeld until their full age";

2. Re the will of Baldwin Radington. Maud (Durant) Wroth/Radington is buried in the Chapel of St. James in the Church of St. Andrew in Enfield pre-1401. There is no mention of any Wroths in Baldwin's will which, given how extensive it is, begs the questions whether there was a family falling out?; and

3. Re the will William Wroth. William has at least 1 sister - Christian (Cristina) Westwolde. Query if she is a daughter of John Wroth the younger or Baldwin Radington (she does not appear referenced in either of their wills) or otherwise related (i.e. sister-in-law?). A John Woodcott remained in the employ of William as his bailiff after serving Baldwin Radington (I just found the continuity of service interesting).

Will of John Wroth the younger [Commissary Court of London 1375 MS9171/1, fol 27v]

dated Friday before the Translation of St Thomas the Martyr 1374
burial wherever it pleases God
to my wife - all utensils of household &c; all my oxen being in [Y]eppyng' [Epping] and carthorses at Enefeld' with all the bullocks and cows found there
residue of estate, after payment of debts, to be distributed among my boys
[pueros meos] at the discretion of my executors; if any of those boys should be dead, then their portion to be divided among the survivors
all my lands & tenements &c in Enefeld & in the county of Kent, of which John Wroth the elder, John de Midelton & others are enfeoffed, as appears by a certain deed, should be sold and the proceeds to be divided among my boys
the money and the boys to remain in the guardianship of John Wroth the elder and sir John Ekyndon, vicar of the church of Enefeld until their full age
to the fabric of the church of Enefeld 20s
to sir John Ekyndon vicar of the church of Enefeld 13s 4d
to sir John Ekyndon chaplain
to sir John Edward 6s 8d
to Simekin
to each of my servants
Executors: John Wrothe senior, John Ekyndon vicar of the church of Enefeld & sir John Ekyndon chaplain
This testament was proved on 8 July 1375

Will of Baldwin Radyngton

4 [altered to 14] May 1401 and 2 Henry IV.
Baldwin (Baudewynus) Radyngton', knight, in control of my mind and of sound memory.
Soul to God, the Blessed Mary and all the saints and body to be buried in the parish church of St Andrew of Enfeld' in the county of Middlesex,
namely in a certain chapel of St James within the same church by me lately constructed by the tomb of Maud (Matild') late my wife buried in the same place.
To the fabric of the same church for a perpetual memorial of me and my said wife 60 shillings [etc].
To the high altar of the same church for my forgotten tithes and offerings 60 shillings.
Further bequests to chaplains, the parish clerk and the sexton.
Other items left to the church to remain there in memory of my soul, the soul of Maud late my wife and of the souls of my kinsmen and benefactors
and of all the faithful dead. The rector and vicar shall not claim anything thereof.
Further bequests of cloth and vestments to the parishioners.
To funeral expenses 40 pounds.
For the celebration of masses for my soul immediately after my death 100 shillings.
To the rector of St Bartholomew in the ward of Bradstrete [St Bartholomew by the Exchange] for my forgotten tithes and offerings 40 shillings.
To the 4 orders of friars dwelling within the city of London', namely Augustinian, Preachers, Minor and Carmelite, to each order 40 shillings to celebrate [etc].
To my dearest brothers the prior and convent of the Carthusian order of the Blessed Mary by London' to have my soul in their prayers
as they promised by their sealed letters 100 shillings.
To the friars of the order of the Holy Cross by the Tower of London' [etc] 20 shillings.
To each pauper lying in the hospitals of the Blessed Mary and Bedlem without Tysshopesgate [sic - Bysshopesgate], of St Thomas in Suthwerk',
of St Bartholomew, of Elsyngspitell' and of St Katherine 4 pence.
To each prisoner incarcerated in the prisons of Newgate, Ludgate, Flete, Mareschalsie, the Bench (Banci) of the lord king and the Mareschalsie of the lord king 1 penny.
To each leper lying or dwelling between the City of London' and the vill of Ware 4 pence.
To Emma my sister 1 silver cup [etc], 6 silver spoons and 10 pounds sterling.
To Walter, her son, my kinsman, 1 cup [etc] and 10 marks sterling together with my best hauberk [and other arms and armour].
To my dearest servant Maud Algood' for her good service my cloak called Belle de Scarlet [etc and other goods] and 10 pounds sterling.
To the same Maud my best bed [and bedclothes, and other household goods.]
To Agnes Basset my kinswoman (Cognata) 1 cup [etc] and 10 marks sterling [etc].
To John Chiser my servant for his faithful service my horse called balle together with an iron hauberk and 5 marks of English money.
To Richard Deynes my butler a hauberk and 40 shillings sterling.
To John West, forester (Forst[er]), my servant, 40 shillings of silver and to John Wodecote my servant 40 shillings.
To Richard Willy my servant of the chamber 20 shillings and 1 doublet.
To John Shad' my servant 10 shillings.
To Thomas Pycot 1 gown and 20 shillings sterling.
In honour of God and the Blessed Mary for completing the work of charity of the high road between Schordich' [and] Enefeld' 10 pounds.
To Geoffrey Lord', a blind man dwelling in Enfeld', 6 shillings, 8 pence and Thomas Abraham, pauper of the same vill, 6 shillings, 8 pence.
To Maud Mondegom' of Enfeld' 6 shillings, 8 pence and Joan, her daughter 20 shillings.
To the abbot and convent of Walth[a]m of the Holy Cross [etc] 100 shillings.
To be shared among the paupers and most indigent 100 shillings, namely to each pauper 4 pence.
To my dearest friend Thomas Bret, knight, 1 cup [etc].
To John Cheyny, knight, 1 cup [etc].
And I entreat Thomas Bret and John Cheyny if it pleases them and as far as they are willing to supervise the executors [etc].
Executors John Seymo[ur] of London' and John Buk, citizen and tailor of the same city, to whom I leave for their labour 1 cup [etc] and 10 pounds sterling each.
The residue to executors to pay my debts and [those] of my wife and besides to be disposed for my soul by the counsel of my said supervisors.
In witness of which I have put my seal of my arms, these being witnesses: John Cheyser, Walter Hille and Richard Deynes.
To Joan Vaghan my servant 26 shillings, 8 pence.
Given at London'.
Kyngesmyll'.

Proved before us the president of the Consistory of London' on the 14th day before the Kalends of December [18 November] 1401.
Administration was committed to the executors. Dated at London'.

Will of William Wroth 1408

9 November 1407 and 9 Henry IV.
William Wroth', esquire, in good and sound memory [etc].
Soul to God, the Blessed Mary the Virgin and all the saints.
Body to be buried wherever God shall wish.
To William Wroth' my son all my armour both for war and for peace.
To Christian (Cristina) Westwolde my sister 10 marks sterling.
To John Wodcote my bailiff 4 marks sterling.
Alexander Sprot, citizen and vintner of London', and Ellen, his wife, shall have all my tenement called le Bolehede situated in West Chepe, London',
without any rent to be rendered during 1 year next after my decease.
Residue of all goods after debts paid and completion of testament to be disposed by executors for soul and the souls of all the faithful dead
in works of charity.
Executors William Massy, esquire, and the aforesaid Alexander Sprot.
To William Massy for his labour 100 shillings sterling.
Given at London'.
Spark'

Proved before James Cole, clerk, commissary [etc] the third day before the Ides of November [11 November] 1408.
Administration committed to executors in the testament named and William Troutbek', esquire, coadjutor of the executors and administrator of the goods,
deputed by us with the express consent of the executors [etc].

Cheers,

Pete