Olaf III 'Skotkonung' Eriksson
Egon Wojciulewicz
as I know he was the son of Erik VIII 'Seiersal' Bjornsson (born about 930,
King of Sweden). In the database of LDS (http://www.familysearch.org/)
Olaf's mother is mentioned as Swietoslawa or Sygryda Queen of Sweden, Norway
and Denmark.
What is the meaning of this 'or' ? Is there some doubt between two persons
? Or was Sygryda another (Scandinavian) name for Swientoslawa ?
The same source mentions Mieszko I of Poland as the father of Swietoslawa.
Anybody knows about it ?
Thank you any way
Egon
Robert Mee
area... but Swientoslawa looks very Polish, so it could be possible that the
two are the same person.
Robert Mee
"Egon Wojciulewicz" <eg...@eswo.org> wrote in message
news:3adf1b94$0$3119$456d...@news.skynet.be...
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> I am interested in Olaf III 'Skotkonung' Eriksson (King of Sweden). As far
> as I know he was the son of Erik VIII 'Seiersal' Bjornsson (born about 930,
> King of Sweden).
First of all, drop the numbers from Erik and Olaf. These were
assigned by later historiana based on legendary kings that never
existed. Likewise, Erik's birthdate and parentage are unknown.
For a discussion of the latter, see:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/swede.htm
> In the database of LDS (http://www.familysearch.org/)
> Olaf's mother is mentioned as Swietoslawa or Sygryda Queen of Sweden, Norway
> and Denmark.
>
> What is the meaning of this 'or' ? Is there some doubt between two persons
> ? Or was Sygryda another (Scandinavian) name for Swientoslawa ?
>
> The same source mentions Mieszko I of Poland as the father of Swietoslawa.
>
> Anybody knows about it ?
This woman is well known, as queen of Sweden and Denmark.
Traditionally, she is given a scandinavian pedigree, while the
King of Denmark is given another polish wife, sister of Boleslaw
(and hence daughter of Mieszko I). It has been argued here and
elsewhere, that these two represent the same person - that Sigrid
who was actually identical to the daughter of Mieszko, had a
scandinavian pedigree invented for her. I recommend that you
consult the archives for this.
taf
Egon Wojciulewicz
(http://www.familysearch.org/) there is a line of Scandinavian kings up to
Fornjotur (born abt 160), and another line up to Frithuwald (born abt 190.
What is the value of that ?
I found this line :
Harald 'The Blue Tooth' Gormsson , Geva Knudsson , Knud Sigurdsson , Sigurd
'Snake-eye' Ragnarsson , Aslaug Sigurdsdatter , Sigurd 'Fafnisbana'
Sigmundsson , Hjordis Eylimasdatter , Eylimi Hjalmthersson , Hjalmther
Egdirsson , Egdir Skulasson , Skuli Lofdasson , Lofdi Halfdansson , Halfdan
'the Old' Hringsson , Hring Raumsson , Raum 'the Old' Norsson , Norr
Thorasson , Thorri Snaersson , Snaer Jokulsson , Jokull Frostasson , Frosti
Karasson , Kari Fornjotsson , Fornjotur King of Kvenland.
Egon
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:3ADF2E87...@interfold.com...
Frank Johansen
>
> Thank you all for information. In the database of LDS
> (http://www.familysearch.org/) there is a line of Scandinavian kings up to
> Fornjotur (born abt 160), and another line up to Frithuwald (born abt 190.
> What is the value of that ?
As serious genealogy? None. You should stop with Harald's father, Grom
the Old. If you choose to include it in your genealogy, please mark it
very clearly as MYTHICAL or LEGENDARY.
> I found this line :
>
> Harald 'The Blue Tooth' Gormsson , Geva Knudsson , Knud Sigurdsson , Sigurd
> 'Snake-eye' Ragnarsson , Aslaug Sigurdsdatter , Sigurd 'Fafnisbana'
> Sigmundsson , Hjordis Eylimasdatter , Eylimi Hjalmthersson , Hjalmther
> Egdirsson , Egdir Skulasson , Skuli Lofdasson , Lofdi Halfdansson , Halfdan
> 'the Old' Hringsson , Hring Raumsson , Raum 'the Old' Norsson , Norr
> Thorasson , Thorri Snaersson , Snaer Jokulsson , Jokull Frostasson , Frosti
> Karasson , Kari Fornjotsson , Fornjotur King of Kvenland.
If we estimate that Harald Bluetooth was born abt. 950, and count 25
years per generations, we find that Fornjotner lived in the beginning of
the 5th century. At that time, the Finns (or the Kvens) had just started
moving into what today is Finland, so I doubt that he was King of
Kvenland. And the name itself, Fornjotnr, means something like "giant
from the past" or "very old giant".
I have read somewhere (don't remember where), that when the old sagas,
legends and myths from that time-period refer to the Finns or King of
the Finns, they are not talking about the people of modern-day Finland,
but of the an old people (by some called Fenies) of Celtic origin who
lived in Scandinavia before the Germanics decided to move north.
--
Vennlig hilsen
Frank H. Johansen
frank.j...@hm.telia.no
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Egon Wojciulewicz wrote:
> >
> > Thank you all for information. In the database of LDS
> > (http://www.familysearch.org/) there is a line of Scandinavian kings up to
> > Fornjotur (born abt 160), and another line up to Frithuwald (born abt 190.
> > What is the value of that ?
>
> As serious genealogy? None. You should stop with Harald's father, Grom
> the Old. If you choose to include it in your genealogy, please mark it
> very clearly as MYTHICAL or LEGENDARY.
For Gorm, see:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/gorm.htm
> > I found this line :
> >
> > Harald 'The Blue Tooth' Gormsson , Geva Knudsson ,
There is what appears to be a contemporary rune stone which names
Harald's mother as Thyra, so this line breaks right at the start.
> > Knud Sigurdsson , Sigurd
> > 'Snake-eye' Ragnarsson , Aslaug Sigurdsdatter , Sigurd 'Fafnisbana'
The aim here was to connect the Danish royal family to Ragnar
Lothbrok, the megendary king of all Scandinavia, and father of
"snake-eye". This is different than the route usually taken,
which makes Gorm himself the son of this Knut. Neither line has
historical value.
> > Sigmundsson , Hjordis Eylimasdatter , Eylimi Hjalmthersson , Hjalmther
> > Egdirsson , Egdir Skulasson , Skuli Lofdasson , Lofdi Halfdansson , Halfdan
> > 'the Old' Hringsson , Hring Raumsson , Raum 'the Old' Norsson , Norr
Halfdan "the Old" is the prototypical Danish ancestor - appearing
at the top (or once appearing at the top, before further
inventions) of nearly every traditional Danish pedigree. This is
a certain sign of either an intercolation or pure invention.
taf
Rafal T. Prinke
"Egon Wojciulewicz" <eg...@eswo.org> wrote:
> What is the meaning of this 'or' ? Is there some doubt between two
> persons? Or was Sygryda another (Scandinavian) name for Swientoslawa ?
It is very complicated and far from solved. There was a very
long and involved discussion on Sigrid here circa 1995.
I have a (still temporary and unfinished) Web site devoted
to Sigrid the Haughty alias Swietoslawa at:
http://hum.amu.edu.pl/~bkpan/SIGRID/sigrid.htm
Many members of the list - Jack Brown, Stewart Baldwin, Jared Olar
and others - were very helpful in providing the source data.
I have not had time to put everything on-line yet - but
even that shows how difficult it is to solve.
My own conviction at present is that Sigrid was a later
invention or rather identification of a "haughty" lady
with Svein's wife in order to find a nice literary
(and maybe political) explanation of the Battle of
Three Kings and killing of Olaf Tryggvason.
Her Slavic name is far from certain - actually I do
not believe it was Swietoslawa. The only foundation
of this hypothesis is the entry in the _Liber vitae of
the New Minster and Hyde Abbey Winchester_ where
a "Santslaue soror CNVTI regis nostri" (ie. sister
of Kanute the Great) is listed. It was suggested by
J. Steenstrup that her mother may have been named
the same - but that is against the custom of Scandinavian
people not to name children after living ancestors.
"Swietoslawa" has been accepted by Polish historiography
("horror vacui") even though the name is quite rare
in Poland - it is typical for Ruthenia.
Best regards,
Rafal
GRHa...@cs.com
writes:
> Or was Sygryda another (Scandinavian) name for Swientoslawa ?
>
I am far from being an expert but I have the Sygryda enclosed in brackets
after the Swientoslawa. Usually this means that it is the same name in a
different language or spelling. Of course this information came from LDS so
you may want to discount it, for a more reliable source.
Gordon Reid Hale
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>
>"Egon Wojciulewicz" <eg...@eswo.org> wrote:
>
>> What is the meaning of this 'or' ? Is there some doubt between two
>> persons? Or was Sygryda another (Scandinavian) name for Swientoslawa ?
>
>It is very complicated and far from solved. There was a very
>long and involved discussion on Sigrid here circa 1995.
>
>I have a (still temporary and unfinished) Web site devoted
>to Sigrid the Haughty alias Swietoslawa at:
>
> http://hum.amu.edu.pl/~bkpan/SIGRID/sigrid.htm
For an "unfinished" website, there is a lot of good stuff here. If
one wants to acquaint themselves with the problems involving Sigrid,
there are quotes here from virtually all known primary sources which
mention Sigrid (often in both the original language and English
translation).
>My own conviction at present is that Sigrid was a later
>invention or rather identification of a "haughty" lady
>with Svein's wife in order to find a nice literary
>(and maybe political) explanation of the Battle of
>Three Kings and killing of Olaf Tryggvason.
Although I would regard this as one possibility, I lean in a different
direction. My suggestion is as follows: Erik was married to Sigrid,
by whom she had Olaf. Svend was married twice, first to Gunhild,
sister of Boleslaw of Poland, by whom he had sons Harald and Knud.
After Erik's death, Svend married Sigrid, by whom he had the daughter
Estrid who was mother of Svend II.
This suggestion fits well with Thietmar, who stated that Harald and
Knud were sons of a sister of Boleslaw. It also fits well with
Heimskringla, which states that Svend was married twice, first to
Gunhild, daughter of king Burizleif of the Wends, by whom he was
father of Harald and Knud, and then to Sigrid, by whom he was father
of Estrid. The disagreement with the name of Gunhild's father is not
a serious problem, because the Icelandic sources tend to use the term
"Wend" as a generic term for Slavic peoples, and the name "Burizleif"
as a generic name for a king of Slavic peoples. (Remember that
Heimskringla is not a contemporary source.)
The following table outlines my suggested realtionship.
Erik of-m-Sigrid-m-Svend-m-Gunhild of Poland
Sweden | | |___________________
| | | |
Olaf of Estrid Knud of Denmark Harald
Sweden m. Ulf and England
|
Svend II
To my knowledge, the only near contemporary source which disagrees
with this scenario is Adam of Bremen, which states that Erik married a
sister or daughter of Boleslaw, and that after Erik's death, Svend
married Erik's widow, who was then the mother of Knud. Thus, Adam's
data gives the following table.
Erik of-m-___ of Poland-m-Svend
Sweden | _______|___________________
| | | |
Olaf of Estrid Knud of Denmark Harald
Sweden m. Ulf and England
|
Svend II (an informant of Adam)
Thus, in my scenario, the only mistake that Adam made was to assume
that Estrid and Knud had the same mother. His informant Svend II
would have probably told Adam that his mother Estrid was a half-sister
of Olaf of Sweden (through her mother). Estrid being only a
half-sister of Knud (through her father) could have easily gone
unmentioned, leading Adam to incorrectly assume that Knud's mother the
Polish princess was the same person as the widow of Erik whom Svend
married. Assuming this very minor error on Adam's part makes the
accounts from all sources match pretty well.
Of course, the main problem with my scenario is that attaches
significant weight to Heimskringla (a source a little more than a
hundred years later than Adam) at the (minor) expense of Adam of
Bremen's testimony. There are a few reasons why I am inclined to do
this in this case.
1. While Heimskringla (and the Icelandic sources in general) have a
poor track record for Danish and Swedish history of the mid-tenth
century and earlier, in those cases in which it can be checked against
better, contemporary sources, the agreement between Heimskringla and
other sources becomes much better from the end of the tenth century
on, so that the usual reasons for mistrusting Heimskringla carry less
weight here (although we are still admittedly in the gray area where
Heimskringla is just beginning to become more reliable).
2. Adam's statement that Svend married the widow of Erik, by whom he
became the father of Knud and Harald, requires that Knud and Harald
were both born after Erik's death ca. 994/5, thus making the younger
of the two brothers a bit young to be active in 1014. Of course, this
somewhat tight chronology is not impossible.
3. The statement in Yngvar's saga that Sigrid was the mother of Olaf
has the appearance of being independent of the statement to that
effect in Heimskringla and other Icelandic sources (such as
Morkinskinna). This in turn undermines Adam's statement that Olaf's
mother was a Polish princess.
These reasons are certainly not conclusive, but are enough to make me
lean in the direction indicated. Are there any contemporary (or
nearly so) sources other than Adam of Bremen which contradict my
suggestion?
Stewart Baldwin
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> Although I would regard this as one possibility, I lean in a different
> direction. My suggestion is as follows: Erik was married to Sigrid,
> by whom she had Olaf. Svend was married twice, first to Gunhild,
> sister of Boleslaw of Poland, by whom he had sons Harald and Knud.
> After Erik's death, Svend married Sigrid, by whom he had the daughter
> Estrid who was mother of Svend II.
>
> This suggestion fits well with Thietmar, who stated that Harald and
> Knud were sons of a sister of Boleslaw. It also fits well with
> Heimskringla, which states that Svend was married twice, first to
> Gunhild, daughter of king Burizleif of the Wends, by whom he was
> father of Harald and Knud, and then to Sigrid, by whom he was father
> of Estrid.
This version also fits well with Thietmar's statement that mother of
Harald and Knud was expelled by her husband, and similar statement by
'Gesta Cnutonis Regis' that Svend's sons after their father's death
brought back their mother from 'the land of Slavs'. A king usually
repudiates his wife to marry somebody else. Of course it is not a
conclusive proof, but I think this evidence fits better to the saga
account (Gunhild and Sigrid as two wives in sequence) than to the
version that makes Gunhild/Sigrid/Swietoslawa one person.
> To my knowledge, the only near contemporary source which disagrees
> with this scenario is Adam of Bremen, which states that Erik married a
> sister or daughter of Boleslaw, and that after Erik's death, Svend
> married Erik's widow, who was then the mother of Knud.
Remarkably Adam claims that Erik's widow was the mother of Knud but
makes no hint (in the main body of text) to her Polish origin. Only
one scholia states that Erik married daughter or sister of Boleslav.
Anyone knows the textual history of this particular scholia? How wide
it is spread among the various manuscripts? Is it thought to be made
by Adam himself or by a later commentator? The Tschan edition is
silent about it.
BTW, anyone get any thoughts about 'son of the king of Russia' whom
Adams claims as one of the Estrid's husbands?
Andrew
PMood...@aol.com
direction. My suggestion is as follows: Erik was married to Sigrid, by whom
she had Olaf. Svend was married twice, first to Gunhild, sister of Boleslaw
of Poland, by whom he had sons Harald and Knud. After Erik's death, Svend
married Sigrid, by whom he had the daughter Estrid who was mother of Svend II.
PLM: Stewart, I'm glad to see you giving the Scandinavian sources some
credit. I think we should remember that Erik married more than once; unless
you believe that Holmfrid was also the daughter of Sigrid.
Holmfrid married Jarl Swein Hakonson and they had Gunhild, the spouse of
Sven Estridson. I do find it perplexing that Adam of Bremen has Jarl Hakon's
lineage all muddled up when it is supposedly derived from Svend Estridson.
I have not read Adam of Bremen's work but I do feel as though many rely
on it to heavily. Peter Sawyer wrote in_Hovdingesamfund og Kongemagt_(Kings
and Royal Power) that [Adam of Bremen's account of the Danish rulers in the
early tenth century cannot be trusted in detail].
I would go even further and say that Adam cannot be trusted throughout
the tenth century.
Phil
Jo Rune Ugulen
> I have not read Adam of Bremen's work but I do feel as though many
rely
>on it to heavily.
> I would go even further and say that Adam cannot be trusted throughout
>the tenth century.
Is this really your opinion? Without even having read it?
regards
----
Jo Rune Ugulen, P.O.Box 205, N-5202 Os, Norway
E-mail: jo.u...@student.uib.no
Distriktsrepresentant i Hordaland for
Norsk Slektshistorisk Forening, sjå http://genealogi.no
PMood...@aol.com
Is this really your opinion? Without even having read it?
PLM: Yes but I have searched the Gen-Medieval archives and I have gleaned
enough facts to base my opinion on. In May, 1996, Stewart Baldwin wrote a
response to Jared Olar's e-mail and I will put a quote from it in brackets:
[This is true enough--but when it comes to Norwegian history in these early
times Adam as completely unreliable. For example, he claims that St. Olaf
Haraldsson was the son of Olaf Tryggvasson, and claims that Olaf's father
Tryggvi was the son of Jarl Hakon the Powerful.
Furthermore, Adam's Hakon seems to be a garbled composite of Harald Haarfagr,
Hakon the Good, and Jarl Hakon. Also, he says Jarl Hakon's successor was an
otherwise unknown "Hartild."]
Jo, as you can see from the above quote; Adam of Bremen is useless for
details of Norwegian history in the 10th century and I won't rely on him for
my information. It is my interest in Jarl Hakon the Great that has peaked my
interest in Medieval history; so I see no need to rush out and buy Adam of
Bremen's work when he has made such egregious errors concerning the Jarl:-) I
will eventually get to Adam's book.
Snorri is much more reliable when considering Earl Hakon's ancestry than
Adam of Bremen. Snorri took his facts from the _Haleygjatal_by Eyvind
Skaldaspiller Finsson which appears to have been written as a eulogy for Earl
Hakon and therefore would date about 995 AD. The translation of the 16th
stanza remaining of the Haleygjatal reads:
16 Skáldskaparmál, stanza 307
Again we have produced Yule-beings' feast [mead of poetry],
our ruler's eulogy, like a bridge of masonry.
[Faulkes trans.]
I feel confident that Snorri had the full version of the Haleygjatal to work
with and it is therefore more reliable than Adam's hearsay evidence.
Phil Moody
Stewart Baldwin
>Hi Jo:
>
>Is this really your opinion? Without even having read it?
>
>PLM: Yes but I have searched the Gen-Medieval archives and I have gleaned
>enough facts to base my opinion on. In May, 1996, Stewart Baldwin wrote a
>response to Jared Olar's e-mail and I will put a quote from it in brackets:
>
>[This is true enough--but when it comes to Norwegian history in these early
>times Adam as completely unreliable. For example, he claims that St. Olaf
>Haraldsson was the son of Olaf Tryggvasson, and claims that Olaf's father
>Tryggvi was the son of Jarl Hakon the Powerful.
>Furthermore, Adam's Hakon seems to be a garbled composite of Harald Haarfagr,
>Hakon the Good, and Jarl Hakon. Also, he says Jarl Hakon's successor was an
>otherwise unknown "Hartild."]
Just for the record, the above passage was written by Jared Olar, and
not by me. (Your statement makes it unclear whether the remark was
Jared's or mine.)
> Jo, as you can see from the above quote; Adam of Bremen is useless for
>details of Norwegian history in the 10th century and I won't rely on him for
>my information. It is my interest in Jarl Hakon the Great that has peaked my
>interest in Medieval history; so I see no need to rush out and buy Adam of
>Bremen's work when he has made such egregious errors concerning the Jarl:-) I
>will eventually get to Adam's book.
Well, it certainly seems that you have already made up your mind about
a source which you admit to never having examined. In fact, contrary
to what the above quote states, Adam does not mention "Jarl Hakon the
Great". What he does do is mention a Norwegian ruler named Hakon in a
vague chronological setting who has been interpreted by various
individuals as being either king Hakon I or Jarl Hakon. Thus, it is a
matter of interpretation whether or not Adam even mentions Jarl Hakon,
so you hardly have a legitimate case for accusing him of errors in
that regard, especially since you haven't even bothered to examine the
source for yourself.
Stewart Baldwin