Who were the ancestors of the Hilduin III/IV (?) who m. Adelaide/Alix/Adele de Roucy?

[Greg Vaut]

I am trying to sort out several generations of the comtes de Ponthie, comtes de Montdidier, and seignerurs de Ramerupt and I am very confusaed. So far, I have consulted three sources: Genealogics, Med Lands and Racines et Histoire (three different pages). They do not appear consistent with each other. The common point ("CP") in all three is the marriage of a Hilduin (de Ponthieu/de Montdidier) and an Alix/Adèle/lice/Adelaide (de Roucy), dau. of Ebles Comte de Roucy and Beatrix de Hainaut. Who were Hilduin’s ancestors?

I. Racines et Histoire (Montdidier, Ramerupt) is the longest lineage offered in terms of number of generations, but cites no sources. The five of generations to arrive at the common couple of Hilduin and Alix is as follows:
I.1. Helgaud II comte de Montreuil, d aft 879, had son:
I.2. Herluin II comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens, b ca 890 d 13 Jul 945, m1 NN de Dammartin, m2 NN, had son (mother not identified):
I.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil, d 957, m NN, had son:
I.4. Guillaume I comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/20 d ca 980, m Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne had son:
I.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier, de Ponthieu et de Roucy, b ca 933/45 d bef 956 or 1009, m1 Hersende (Hersent) d’Arcis-sur-Aube (dau. of Helpuin comte d'Arcis); m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy

II. Racines et Histoire (de Boubers) shows how confusion between given names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerupt) could lead to further confusion:
II.1. Helgaud I comte de Ponthieu, Abbé de Saint-Riquier (son of Oswin) m b ca 805 d 863, m Berthe de Ponthieu, b ca 805 d bef 859, had son:
II.2. Hilduin 1er comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, d ca 878, m Hélissende de Ramerupt comtesse d’Arcis-sur-Aube, had son:
II.3. Helgaud II (Childwald) comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 d 926, m NN, had son:
II.4. Herluin II seigneur de Ramerupt and de Montdidier, m? Hersende (widow of Hilduin III de Ponthieu), had son:
II.5. Herloin/Hilduin** IV comte de Montdidier, seigneur de Ramerupt, d’Arcis et de Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage), m Alix** de Roucy

III. Racines et Histoire (Ponthieu-Montreuil) again shows how a confusion between names (Helgaud, Herloin/Herluin, Hilduin) and title (Ponthieu, Montreuil, Ramerupt) could lead to confusion.:
III.1. Helgaud II (Childwald)° comte de Ponthieu et de Montreuil, b ca 860 926, m NN, had son:
III.2. Herluin II (Childwin) comte de Ponthieu, Montreuil et Amiens b ca 890 d 945 m1 (div. bef 927) ? de Dammartin, m2) NN, had son (mother not identified):
III.3. Ro(t)ger (Rotgaire) comte de Ternois et de Montreuil d 957 m NN, had son:
III.4. Guillaume 1er comte de Ponthieu, de Montreuil et de Boulogne, b ca 915/920 d ca 980, m ca 940 Mahaut (Mathilde, Maud) de Boulogne, had son:
III.5. Hilduin** III de Ponthieu (1er de Montdidier) comte de Montdidier & de Ponthieu, seigneur de Ramerupt, Arcis et Breteuil, comte de Roucy (by marriage), b ca 933/45 d ca 1009, m1 ? Hersende «La Pieuse» de Ramerupt b ca 950 comtesse d’Arcies, m2 Alix** (Adélaïde) de Roucy

IV. Genealogics differs significantly from the Racines et Histoire lineage. It offers only four generation to the CP and cites the same Europäische Stammtafeln table for all relationships (3:676):
IV.1. (no predecessors shown)
IV.2. Hilduin [I] Comte d'Arcis-sur-Aube, m Hersende Dame de Ramerupt, had son:
IV.3. Hilduin II Sire de Ramerupt Comes, b ca 960, had son:
IV.4. Hilduin III Sire de Ramerupt Comes, liv 1026, m NN, had son:
IV.5. Hildouin** IV de Montdidier, b ca 1005 d 1063, m Adèle** (Alice) de Roucy Heiress of Roucy

V. Med Lands shows all of the primary individuals listed by Genealogy, but is somewhat uncertain in attributing fathers to son for the first three generations. No predecessor is shown to generation III.1:
V.1. Hilduin I Comte de Montdidier, d bef 956, m. NN, relationship to following unknown:
V.2. Unknown m Hersende, Dame de Ramerupt, had a son:
V.3. Hilduin II Comte d’Arcis-sur-Aube, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 992/993, m NN, possibly had son:
V.4. Hilduin III de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d aft 1032, m NN, had son:
V.5. Hilduin** IV de Ramerupt Comte de Montdidier, Seigneur de Ramerupt, d 1063 m Adelaide de Roucy**

Can anyone help me sort this out to establish the ancestors of the Hilduin who m. Alix/Adelaide de Roucy?

Greg

[Peter Stewart]

You can help yourself for starters by junking "Racines et Histoire" as a
resource for any genealogical information whatsoever. The lineages,
anmes and dates shown above are a welter of garbage. I suggest you do
the same with any other material you may find on the internet that
either gives no sources or cites a list of private contributions and
works with "Nobiliaire" in the title.

Also it's not a very good idea to invent acronyms, especially such as CP
for "common point" when it is generally used in this forum for "Complete
Peerage".

As for the ancestry of Hilduin (died 1063) the husband of Alix/Adela of
Roucy, we know from a charter of King Robert II dated 1031 that Hilduin
(IV) was son of a count also named Hilduin whose brother Manasses was
count (almost certainly) of Dammartin. We know from a charter of King
Philippe I dated 1061 that their father was a nephew of another Hilduin
who was granted Combs-la-Ville by Hugo Magnus, duke of Franks (died
956). This Hilduin died before Hugo Magnus, who took back Combs for himself.

We also know from a Vita of St Balsemius (or Baussange) that the mother
of Count Hilduin active until 977/92 was Hersende who together with him
founded the priory of Notre-Dame at Ramerupt where they deposited relics
of the saint taken from Arcis-sur-Aube. Hersende appears to have been
heiress of these places, or at least of Ramerupt, since she was a widow
acting on her own authority when she took the relics from Arcis for her
new church at Ramerupt ca 960. The Vita of St Balsemius was probably
written in the 11th or 12th century, though this is not certain - its
fullest extant version is a copy made by 1519, perhaps at Saint-Basle de
Verzy abbey.

The names of the wives of these men, apart from Hersende, are unknown.
Jean-Noël Mathieu and others have speculatively proposed family origins
for them, but without evidence solid enough for details to be worth
repeating.

Peter Stewart

[Greg Vaut]

Peter,

Thanks for your advice on Racines et Histoire. I'm also aware of the criticism of Med Lands. I hadn't thought about possible confusion when I introduced the acronym.

I appreciate your summary of the "known" evidence on this line. That's very helpful.

Greg

[P J Evans]

I pulled Moriarty's manuscript off the shelf, and he says that the early generations are "unclear".

[wjhonson]

I'm not sure if you mean the names of the wifes of the men in the OP, or the names of the men you specified in your response.

I think we do know however that the wife of Manasses of Dammartin was Constance.

[Peter Stewart]

On 02-Oct-20 1:03 AM, wjhonson wrote:
> I'm not sure if you mean the names of the wifes of the men in the OP, or the names of the men you specified in your response.
>
> I think we do know however that the wife of Manasses of Dammartin was Constance.

I meant the men in the subject line of this thread.

The mother of the three recorded children of Manasses of Dammartin was
named Constance - that is all we know about her except (in context of
the question being addressed) that she was not an ancestor of Hilduin.

Peter Stewart