Parents of Margaret COURTENAY
Louise Staley
participants has led me to look again at the parents of Margaret
Courtenay who married Theobald Grenville.
First, some problematic sources:
Visitations of Cornwall, pp. 84, 85 shows: "Sir Theobald Grenvile,
kt. temp. Rich II = Margaret Da. of Hugh Courtenay."
Burke's Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages (1883) shows
Margaret's parents as Hugh Courtenay and Maud Beaumont
In 1997 there was some unsourced comment on this line on this newsgroup
that the three children of Hugh Courtenay and Maud Beaumont mentioned,
but not named in Faris, were named Edward, Hugh and Margaret.
Then Faris & Weis:
From Faris 100-6
Hugh Courtenay m Margaret Bohun
b 12 Jul 1303 11 Aug 1325 b 3 Apr 1311
d 3 May 1377 | d 16 Dec 1391
|
|
Edward Courtenay m Emaline Dauney
b abt. 1332 abt. 1348 b 1328
d btn 2 feb 1367 & | d 28 Feb 1369/70
1 Apr 1371 |
|
Hugh Courtenay m Maud Beaumont
b aft. 1358 16 Oct 1417
d 5 Mar 1424/25 | d 3 Jul 1467
|
2 sons and 1 daughter
Weis MC, does not give the parents of Margaret Courtenay in the
Grenville line he presents.
From Magna Charta Sureties 22-10
Margaret Courtenay m Theobald Grenville
|
|
|
William Grenville m Philippa Bonville
b abt. 1375 aft. 12 May 1427 b before 1396
d abt. 1450 d aft. Mar 1457/58
The source for the Grenville marriage shown in MC 22 above is R. Granville, "The
History of the Granville Family" pp 54-57 and Visitation of Cornwall 1620, vol 9,
pp 84-86. The Granville reference is held at Salt Lake and I have ordered it but it
will take 3 months to arrive. However, given MC, or in this case Douglas Richardson,
does not identify Margaret's parents, I assume that reference is not going to help
me much on this particular question.
Now Margaret cannot be the daughter of Hugh Courtenay and Maud Beaumont
if her son William Grenville was born about 1375 as his grandparents
Hugh and Margaret were not married until 1417. Also Margaret cannot be the
daughter of Hugh Courtenay and one of his other 3 wives unless William
Grenville was born much later than 1375 and even then it could only be
Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Audley as, according to Faris, Elizabeth Cogan
died s.p. and he only married Philippe l'Arcedekene after 1397,
too late to produce a grandson who married in 1427, and anyway I thought
his 2 daughters by this marriage were named Joan and Alainor.
Another possible Hugh Courtenay from the period is Hugh b 22 March 1326/27
d 2 Sep 1349 m Elizabeth de Vere before Sep 1341 C.P. IV p325. Elizabeth
died Sep 23 1375. This Hugh is the son of Hugh, Earl of Devon who married
Margaret Bohun. This couple had issue, their son Hugh is mentioned
below as marrying Margaret de Bryan and Maud de Holand. I am not aware of
any other children however that is not to suggest there weren't any, just
that I don't know about them.
So a third possible Hugh is Hugh Courtenay d 20 Feb 1373/74 m (1) by 1361
Margaret de Bryan and (2)after 5 Sep 1363 Maud de Holand. C.P. IV p325. This Hugh
must have been born before June 1350 given his father's death date but more likely
earlier, say 1347 (when his father was 20). So at his marriage to Margaret de
Bryan he would have been aged between 11 and 14, making it likely this was
his first marriage. This Hugh received Papal dispensation to marry Maud de Holand,
C.P. IV p325 on 5 Sep 1363 so Margaret de Bryan must have died before then, when,
according to the reasoning above, Hugh was aged between 13 and 16. This would make
a child from this first marriage unlikely.
Also from a post from 20 Oct 1998 to soc.gen.med by Reedpcgen<reed...@aol.com >
" ii. Margaret de Bryan, m. Hugh de Courtenay, grandson of the Earl of Devon.
Margaret, daughter of Guy de Bryene, was given life interest in a manor by
Hugh, Earl of Devon, on 8 Apr. 1361 [CPR 1361-4]. She and her husband Hugh
(therein stated to be grandson of the Earl) were mentioned 16 Apr. 35 Edw. III
[1361], Sir Robert le fitz Payn being a witness [CCR 1360-1364, p. 262]. Hugh
de Courtenay d. s. p. 20 feb. 1373/4."
If this is all from C.P. it would imply C.P. believes this Hugh Courtenay,
son of Hugh and Elizabeth de Vere, died s.p.
Maybe there is another Hugh Courtenay who could be Margaret's father who I
haven't considered?
Any comments, pointers or errors on the above is welcomed.
regards
Louise
brad verity
According to an old book I found at the New York Central Library, called
"The Genealogical History of the Noble Family of Courtenay," which was
written in the 18th century, Margaret Courtenay, the wife of Sir Theobald
Grenville, was the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccomb (brother of
Edward, 3rd Earl of Devon, and grandson of Hugh, 2nd Earl of Devon). To
quote the old book:
"Sir Hugh Courtenay's last Wife was Maud the Daughter of Sir John Beaumont
of Sherwell in Devonshire: She died July 3, 7 Edward IV. by whom he had a
Son named Hugh, (who succeeded his Father in his Estate) and a Daughter
named Margaret, married to Sir Theobald Grenvile."
Collins' Peerage, written at the end of the 18th century, must've used the
same book as its source, since it's account of the Courtenays in the
Viscount Courtenay article matches the info almost word for word.
HOWEVER, in Roskell's "History of Parliament" from the early 1990s, things
get decidedly more confusing:
In their article on Sir William Bonville II (1392-1461), the statement is
made "These ties were to be strengthened by the marriage of ... two of his
daughters, Philippa and Margaret, respectively to William Grenville (a
grandson of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe)..."
That's good - it matches what the old 18th century Courtenay book stated.
William Grenville must clearly be the son of Sir Theobald Grenville and
Margaret Courtenay of Haccombe.
Luckily, Roskell has an article on Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe (b. after
1358, died 5 or 6 Mar 1425). He is stated to have had 4 wives (the 18th
century sources only gave him 3). By his 3rd wife Philippa Archdeacon, he
had two daughters (the 18th century sources only gave him 1 daughter by her)
and by his 4th and final wife (whom he had license to marry in 1417) Maud,
now the daughter of Sir WILLIAM Beaumont, of Heanton Punchardon (NOT John
Beaumont of Sherwell), Devon, he had 2 sons (18th century sources only gave
him 1 son) and 1 daughter. The two daughters by his 3rd wife Philippa were
named Joan and Eleanor. The two sons by his 4th wife were Edward (about 8
years old when Sir Hugh of Haccombe died) and Hugh, but unfortunately the
daughter by his 4th wife is not named in Roskell, nor does the article
suggest which of Sir Hugh of Haccombe's 3 daughters was the mother of
William Grenville, husband of Philippa Bonville.
Now Roskell gets even more confusing: they have an article on Sir John
GRENVILLE (d. 1412) of Stow in Kilkhampton, Cornwall and Bideford, Devon.
Sir John, Roskell states, was the son and heir of Sir Theobald Grenville of
Stow and Bideford by Margaret, daughter of Hugh Courtenay, 2nd Earl of Devon
and Margaret de Bohun, granddaughter of Edward I!
This creates a number of problems:
1) If Roskell is correct, the Margaret Courtenay who married Sir Theobald
Grenville definitely could NOT be the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of
Haccombe, as Sir Theobald Grenville was dead by July 1381 (according to
Roskell) and Sir Hugh of Haccombe was not married to his 4th wife until
1417. So who did Sir Hugh of Haccombe's daughter marry in order to become
the mother of William Grenville, husband of Philippa Bonville?
2) If Roskell is correct and Sir Theobald Grenville's wife Margaret
Courtenay was the daughter of the 2nd Earl of Devon, then the Complete
Peerage is wrong. They have this Margaret (daughter of 2nd Earl of Devon)
as the wife of John, 3rd Lord Cobham, and dying on 2 Aug 1385, BEFORE the
3rd Lord Cobham, who died 10 Jan 1408.
3) Roskell states that Sir John Grenville of Stow and Bideford died before
Feb 1412 with no surviving issue, and his heir was his brother William
Grenville, who was in possession of Kilkhampton by Oct 1412. This William
Grenville would have to have been born no later than 1381 (when his father
Sir Theobald died), so he cannot be the same William Grenville who was the
grandson of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe and who married Philippa
Bonville. So, who did this William Grenville of Kilkhampton marry?
If anyone can shed further light on the Courtenay/Grenville connections in
the 14th and 15th centuries, I join Louise in greatly appreciating it.
Best regards,
------Brad Verity
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Louise Staley
message, which I very much thank him for.
"brad verity" <bat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message:
> Louise,
>
> According to an old book I found at the New York Central Library, called
> "The Genealogical History of the Noble Family of Courtenay," which was
> written in the 18th century, Margaret Courtenay, the wife of Sir Theobald
> Grenville, was the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccomb (brother of
> Edward, 3rd Earl of Devon, and grandson of Hugh, 2nd Earl of Devon). To
> quote the old book:
>
> "Sir Hugh Courtenay's last Wife was Maud the Daughter of Sir John Beaumont
> of Sherwell in Devonshire: She died July 3, 7 Edward IV. by whom he had a
> Son named Hugh, (who succeeded his Father in his Estate) and a Daughter
> named Margaret, married to Sir Theobald Grenville."
<snip>
> HOWEVER, in Roskell's "History of Parliament" from the early 1990s, things
> get decidedly more confusing:
>
> In their article on Sir William Bonville II (1392-1461), the statement is
> made "These ties were to be strengthened by the marriage of ... two of his
> daughters, Philippa and Margaret, respectively to William Grenville (a
> grandson of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe)..."
>
<snip>
> Now Roskell gets even more confusing: they have an article on Sir John
> GRENVILLE (d. 1412) of Stow in Kilkhampton, Cornwall and Bideford, Devon.
> Sir John, Roskell states, was the son and heir of Sir Theobald Grenville of
> Stow and Bideford by Margaret, daughter of Hugh Courtenay, 2nd Earl of Devon
> and Margaret de Bohun, granddaughter of Edward I!
>
> This creates a number of problems:
>
> 1) If Roskell is correct, the Margaret Courtenay who married Sir Theobald
> Grenville definitely could NOT be the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of
> Haccombe, as Sir Theobald Grenville was dead by July 1381 (according to
> Roskell) and Sir Hugh of Haccombe was not married to his 4th wife until
> 1417. So who did Sir Hugh of Haccombe's daughter marry in order to become
> the mother of William Grenville, husband of Philippa Bonville?
I agree. I have not found a source for the
birth date of Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe. He was the younger
brother of Edward Courtenay, Earl of Devon "the Blind Earl" who
died 5 Dec 1419. C.P. 4:325 gives this Edward Courtenay a birth
date of Abt. 1357. That highly reputable source (not!) Ancestral
File gives a birth date of 3 May 1357.
So lets say Hugh of Haccombe was born about 1359, his first
marriage was 1387, on this basis aged 28, seems a bit late
for a first marriage, but maybe he wasn't born until much
later.
I completely agree that Hugh and Maud Beaumont cannot be the
parents of Margaret Courtenay. Even if she didn't marry Theobald
Grenville or he didn't die in 1381, she must have been born
before 1375 (reasoning: her son Sir John Grenville died in 1412,
presumably he reached his majority if he was he was a member
of parliament so: 1412-21=1391 and his mother would have been
at least 16 when she gave birth = 1375) You don't by the way
know when John Grenville became an MP do you?
So Margaret can only be the daughter of Hugh of Haccombe if he
had an otherwise unknown 5th 1st wife. This seems unlikely
as Hugh and his wives have been well scrutinised over the past
century, particularly in relation to Maud's parents. Which by
the way I agree with you and Faris: were William and Isabel,
not John : )
> 2) If Roskell is correct and Sir Theobald Grenville's wife Margaret
> Courtenay was the daughter of the 2nd Earl of Devon, then the Complete
> Peerage is wrong. They have this Margaret (daughter of 2nd Earl of Devon)
> as the wife of John, 3rd Lord Cobham, and dying on 2 Aug 1385, BEFORE the
> 3rd Lord Cobham, who died 10 Jan 1408.
Does anybody have the inclination to look up CP and tell us what
dates it shows for this Margaret. And what sources he quotes.
If she was also married to Theobald Grenville he might have been
her first husband?
> 3) Roskell states that Sir John Grenville of Stow and Bideford died before
> Feb 1412 with no surviving issue, and his heir was his brother William
> Grenville, who was in possession of Kilkhampton by Oct 1412. This William
> Grenville would have to have been born no later than 1381 (when his father
> Sir Theobald died), so he cannot be the same William Grenville who was the
> grandson of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe and who married Philippa
> Bonville. So, who did this William Grenville of Kilkhampton marry?
See above 1)
Roskell makes John the son of Theobald and Margaret and gives him
a brother and heir William. Weis MC makes William the son of
Theobald and Margaret and marries him in 1427 to Philippa Bonville
as his second wife (the first being Thomasine Cole, I think).
I agree both must have been born before 1381 if Roskell is right
on the death of Theobald however I do still think they were
brothers and the problem lies with Margaret's parents.
brad verity
Some answers and further thoughts:
<< From Magna Charta Sureties 22-10
<< William Grenville m Philippa Bonville
<< b abt. 1375 aft. 12 May 1427 b before 1396
<< d abt. 1450 d aft. Mar 1457/58
Magna Charta Sureties is incorrect on Philippa Bonville's birthdate.
According to Roskell, her father William, 1st Lord Bonville, was born and
baptized at Shute 12 or 31 Aug 1392. Roskell's source for this is
'C138/5/58,' and he corrects Complete Peerage, so it seems pretty
authoritative. Accordingly, there is no way his daughter Philippa can have
been born before 1396. Roskell places the date of Lord Bonville's marriage
to his 1st wife Margaret Grey (Philippa's mother) as about 1414, so Philippa
would've been born sometime after then.
<< That highly reputable source (not!) Ancestral File gives a birth date of
3 May 1357.
Is Ancestral File the LDS database? If so, I fully agree with your
assesment. I've given up using it for my research - it means well but is
full of so many errors. It's a shame people unknowingly carry all of the
mistakes into their own databases.
<< So lets say Hugh of Haccombe was born about 1359, his first marriage was
1387, on this basis aged 28, seems a bit late for a first marriage, but
maybe he wasn't born until much later.
Hugh of Haccombe's mother died in 1372, and he accompanied his uncles Sir
Peter and Sir Philip Courtenay on a naval expedition in 1378, when Roskell
states he was not by then a knight and probably still a minor. So your
approximation of his birth at 1359 seems very close.
His marriage at 28 was not so late for a knight who did not have lands of
his own. Sir Hugh relied on a grant from his brother the 3rd Earl of Devon
in order to hold estates that had belonged to their mother and their
grandmother Countess Margaret of Devon. His 1st wife Elizabeth Audley was a
widow, and Courtenay laid claim to half of the manor of Kingston as part of
his wife's dower from her late husband's estate.
<< You don't by the way know when John Grenville became an MP do you?
According to Roskell, he first became an MP in Sep 1388. He was knighted
before Aug 1386, and married to Margaret Burghersh (whose birth Roskell
estimates at 1376) before Sep 1391.
<< So Margaret can only be the daughter of Hugh of Haccombe if he had an
otherwise unknown 5th 1st wife. This seems unlikely as Hugh and his wives
have been well scrutinised over the past century,
True. I think Roskell would have come across an earlier wife. Also, the
manors of Goodrington, Allington and Stancombe were settled on Sir Hugh of
Haccombe and his 1st wife by his brother the 3rd Earl of Devon within three
months of their marriage in Sep 1387. If Hugh of Haccombe had been married
prior to that wife, I think his brother would've settled the manors on him
sooner.
<< Does anybody have the inclination to look up CP and tell us what
dates it shows for this Margaret. And what sources he quotes. If she was
also married to Theobald Grenville he might have been her first husband?
According to CP, John, 3rd Lord Cobham married "when a minor, and apparently
very young, in 1332-3" Margaret Courtenay, whom CP states was the "1st"
daughter of the 2nd Earl of Devon and Margaret de Bohun. The 3rd Lord
Cobham's parents were married in 1314, and his father the 2nd Lord died 25
Feb 1354/5. Margaret Courtenay, Lady Cobham, died 2 Aug 1385, and was
buried at Cobham. CP states there is a Brass and Monument Inscription for
her. Her husband the 3rd Lord died "at an advanced age (74 years after his
marriage), 10 Jan 1407/8. His brass, probably set up in his lifetime, is in
Cobham Church, but he was buried at the Grey Friars, London." CP cites
'Coll. Top. et Gen., vol. v, p.387' as a source. The 3rd Lord Cobham and
Margaret Courtenay's only surviving child, a daughter Joan, was married in
1362, "contract dated 21 Oct," according to CP.
So, it would seem that Sir Theobald Grenville could not have been married to
Margaret before her marriage to the 3rd Lord Cobham. That means that:
1) Roskell is wrong in making this Margaret the wife of Sir Theobald
Grenville, who died by Jul 1381.
2) The 2nd Earl of Devon and Margaret de Bohun had another daughter, also
named Margaret. This seems highly unlikely to me, but there are other cases
where medieval parents gave the same given name to a younger daughter while
the elder still lived.
3) Roskell is correct in making Sir Theobald Grenville's wife a daughter of
the 2nd Earl of Devon, but erred when it stated her first name was Margaret.
The 2nd Earl of Devon and his wife had a total of 9 daughters. 5 of them
(Margaret, Elizabeth, Catherine, Joan and Anne) are well documented in CP
and elsewhere. The other 4 (Eleanor, Guinora, Isabella and Philippa) remain
very obscure.
4) CP is wrong and the 3rd Lord Cobham did not die in 1407/8, but rather
sometime BEFORE his wife Margaret Courtenay. And it was their son and heir,
also named John Cobham, who was the Lord Cobham who died in 1407/8 and is
buried at Grey Friars. This is a radical suggestion, but it would explain
the incredible age span, which even CP found remarkable enough to comment
on, of the 3rd Lord Cobham, as well as allow Margaret Courtenay to marry Sir
Theobald Grenville as her SECOND husband.
<< Weis MC makes William the son of Theobald and Margaret and marries him in
1427 to Philippa Bonville as his second wife (the first being Thomasine
Cole, I think).
That's fine, but Philippa Bonville's FATHER was not born until 1392, which
would mean the husband was older by at least a decade than his wife's
father. This happened in the 14th century (Edward I was 40 years older than
his 2nd wife Marguerite of France), but not very often.
Also, Roskell clearly states that the William Grenville who married Philippa
Bonville was the grandson of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe (NOT Hugh
Courtenay, 2nd Earl of Devon).
<< I agree both must have been born before 1381 if Roskell is right
on the death of Theobald however I do still think they were brothers and the
problem lies with Margaret's parents.
Yes, there is still a tremendous issue over Margaret's parents. However,
I'm going to propose that there were 2 different William Grenvilles. The
one who Roskell states was the younger son of Sir Theobald and Margaret
Courtenay. And a second William, probably a son or grandson of the first,
who married Philippa, the daughter of William, 1st Lord Bonville. It was
this second William Grenville whose mother was a daughter of Sir Hugh
Courtenay of Haccombe.
Hopefully when you receive "The History of the Granville Family" more light
will be shed, but 3 months is an awfully long time to wait!
Does anyone have faster access to that book?
Best regards,
Tim Powys-Lybbe
"Louise Staley" <sta...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
> I have made a couple of comments interspersed within Brad's
> message, which I very much thank him for.
>
> "brad verity" <bat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message:
<snip>
> > This creates a number of problems:
> >
<snip of problem 1>
>
> > 2) If Roskell is correct and Sir Theobald Grenville's wife Margaret
> > Courtenay was the daughter of the 2nd Earl of Devon, then the Complete
> > Peerage is wrong. They have this Margaret (daughter of 2nd Earl of Devon)
> > as the wife of John, 3rd Lord Cobham, and dying on 2 Aug 1385, BEFORE the
> > 3rd Lord Cobham, who died 10 Jan 1408.
>
> Does anybody have the inclination to look up CP and tell us what
> dates it shows for this Margaret.
Vol III, p. 344:
He m., when a minor, and apparently very young, in 1332-33, Margaret,
1st da. of Hugh Courtenay, earl of Devon, by Margaret, da. of Humphrey
de Bohun, earl of Hertford, and granddaughter of Edward I. She d. 2 Aug
1385, and was bur. at Cobham. Brass and MI.
No corrections in Vol XIV.
> And what sources he quotes.
None.
> If she was also married to Theobald Grenville he might have been
> her first husband?
No mention of this.
<snip>
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org