Scott/Fynch/Clifton Connection

[Brad Verity]

I'm trying to figure out the following PRO document:

C 1/67/234 John Jernyngham, esquire, and Isabel, his wife, daughter
of Sir Gervase Clyfton, knight, and of Isabel Scott, his wife,
previously the wife and executrix of William Scott, father of Sir John
Scott, half brother to the said Isabel. v. John Foster, son
andexecutor of dame Agnes . 2 Ric. III

I know that Sir Gervase Clifton married 2ndly, in 1461, Maud Stanhope,
Lady Willoughby, widow of Sir Thomas Neville (brother of Warwick the
Kingmaker), and previously of Robert, 6th Lord Willoughby. Sir
Gervase, a staunch Lancastrian, was beheaded 6 May 1471 after the
battle of Tewkesbury. His widow Maud died 30 Aug 1497. Sir Gervase
was said to be illegitimate and about aged 50 when he married Lady
Willoughby.

Sir Gervase and Lady Willoughby's relations with his daughter Isabel
Jernyngham and her half-brother John Scott were not always smooth, as
the following PRO document shows:

C 1/66/93 John Scot, knight, and John Jernegam, esquire, sureties to
the king for Gervase Clyfton, knight, and dame Maude, his wife, lady
Wyllughby. v. The said Maude, lady Wyllughby.: Refusing to allow
complainants to receive the profits of the manors of Erysby,
Spyllysby, Hanby, Stapyngtoft, Tonby Park, and Willughby. 18 Edw. IV

Sir Gervase's first wife, Isabel Scot, had died in 1457, and they were
married sometime after 1433, when her first husband died. A post to
the newsgroup by Adrian Channing on 18 Nov 1998 helps further identify
Sir Gervase's first wife:

"WILLIAM SCOTT (-1433); Sir; In Temp Hy VI in the right of his wife
held Bradborne court lodge, Kent; By 1428 moved to Scotts hall
(formally Hall manor), Smeeth parish, Kent); m1 Joan sis&ch (with
Magraet m WILLIAM PARKER of Warehorne) of Sir RICHARD ORLESTON
(-1419/20) who brought him Orleston manor, Kent, Capel and Ham manors
both Warehorne parish, Kent; m2 Isabel [vis named Elizabeth and only
m] d of VINCENT HERBERT alias FINCH (she m2 Sir GERVAS CLIFTON)"

PRO documents also connect this Vincent (alias Finch) family to Sir
Gervase, who was a feoffee to a William Fynch:

C 1/17/155 Dionise and Parnel, sisters of William Fynch, esq. v. Sir
Gervais Clyfton, knt., Richard Luekenore, esq., and Thomas atte Welle,
feoffees.: Manors, lands, &c. (unspecified): Sussex.

C 1/25/182 John, son of William Fynche. v. Sir Gervays Clyfton, knt.,
Richard Leukenore, esq., and Thomas atte Welle, feoffees.: Manors of
Netherfield (Nedderfeld), Itynton, and Icklesham (Ikelysham), and
lands, &c. in Hodesdale, Hooe, Catsfield (Catesfeld), Battle, and
Brightling (Brithelyng). 33 (Hen. VI).

So we seem to have the following:

Isabel Vincent (alias Fynch), married 1st, William Scott, of Scott's
Hall, Kent, who died in 1433, and had issue,

1A) Sir John Scott, of Scott's Hall, who became comptroller of the
household of Edward IV and Knight Marshal of Calais.

Isabel Scott married, 2ndly, aft 1433, Sir Gervase Clifton (b. abt.
1411, d. 1471), illegitimate son of ???? (said to be of the Cliftons
of Clifton, Nottinghamshire), and died 1457, having had further issue,

1B) Isabel Clifton, married John Jernyngham, esquire. Issue???

The Jernynghams were involved in some lawsuits against John Forster
and his mother Dame Agnes Forster over some properties in Kent:

C 1/57/207 John Jernyngham, esquire, and Isabel, his wife, daughter
and heir of Sir Jervase Clyfton, knight. v. Agnes and John Forster:
Manors of Haryng and Clyderhous, and three parts of the manor of
Selling.: Kent.

C 1/53/189 John Jernyngham, esquire, and Elizabeth, his wife,
daughter and heir of Sir Gervise of Clyfton, knight. v. John Foster:
Manors of .... and Haring, and land in Selling by Horton Monachorum,
Lymme and Wodechurch.: Kent.

But how Dame Agnes Forster and her son John fit into the picture, I'm
not sure.

If anyone has any further info, I'd appreciate it.

Best regards, -------Brad Verity

[ADRIANC...@aol.com]

Brad,

I don't know if the following is of any help:

There are some ref to an Agnes and Stephen Forster (mayor in 1454) in John
Stow's "Survey of London", eg pp 37-8:

Also in the year 1463, the third of Edward IV., Mathew Philip, being mayor,
in a common council, at the request of the well-disposed, blessed, and devout
woman, Dame Agnes Forster, widow, late wife to Stephen Forster, fishmonger,
sometiine mayor, for the comfort and relief of all the poor prisoners,
certain articles were established. Imprimis, that the new works then late
edified by the same Dame Agnes, for the enlarging of the prison of Ludgate,
from thenceforth should be had and taken as a part and pared of the said
prison of Ludgate; so that both the old and new work of Ludgate aforesaid be
one prison, gaol keeping, and charge for evermore. ... [Stow gives a poem
which mentions these Forsters]

A web site gives Stepehn Forster death as Dec 1458 (PCC Will 15 Stokton, 4
Dec, pr 27 Dec 1458)

For more on Finch; I have these extracts from Hasted's History of Kent:

... He [Sir Thomas Moyle of Eastwell, speaker of the house of
commons anno 34 Henry VIII.] new built the mansion of Eastwell place,
[Eastwell parish, Kent] and died possessed of this manor, with the
advowson of the church of it in 1560, leaving two daughters his
coheirs, Catherine, married to Thomas Finch, gent. and Anne, married
to Sir Thomas Kempe, of Wye, but this manor, with the advowson, had
been settled on the former, on her marriage with Mr. Thomas Finch, who
was afterwards knighted, and resided at Eastwell place. The family
of Finch, according to John Pilipott, Rouge Dragon, was originally
descended from Henry Fitz-Herbert, chamberlain to king Henry I. whose
descendant Matthew Fitz-Herbert, who was one of the magnates or
barons, at the compiling of Magna Charta, as was his son of the same
name in that parliament, which was convened to meet at Tewksbury. The
alteration of this name to Finch was about the 10th of king Edward I.
at which time Herbert Fitz-Herbert purchased the manor of Finches, in
Lid, of which being entire lord, which he was not of his more antient
patrimony of Netherfield, in Sussex, he assumed his surname from that,
as many other families in that age did from those places of which they
possessed the entire seignory, bearing for his arms, Argent, a chevron
between three griffins, segreant, sable. Vincent Herbert, alias
Finch, was of Netherfield, about the end of the reign of king
Edward˙II. and left two sons, Henry and John, the latter of whom was
father of John, prior of Christ-church. Henry Herbert, alias Finch,
the eldest son, inherited Netherfield, and died anno 8 king
Richard II. and left Vincent Herbert alias Finch, (with whom the
pedigree of this family begins in the Heraldic Visitation of this
county, in 1619) whose son Vincent, was living in the reigns of king
Richard II. and Henry IV. and by his wife Isabel, daughter and coheir
of Robert Cralle, of Cralle, in Sussex, had two sons, William and
John; which latter married Elizabeth, daughter of Richard Seward, of
Linsted, from whom descended the Finch's, of Sewards, Norton,
Kingsdown, Faversham, Wye, and other places in this county. William
Finch, the eldest son, by which name only he and his descendants wrote
themselves, was of Netherfield, and had a son Henry Finch, esq. who
married Alice, only daughter and heir of Philip Belknap, of the Moat,
near Canterbury, uncle to Sir Edward Belknap, which marriage not only
occasioned the first residence of this branch of the family in Kent,
but rendered it more illustrious by a descent from many noble ones.
...(vol vii p 403-5)

and

... After which this manor, [Orleston, Orlestone
parish, Kent] together with the advowson of the church, continued in
his descendants down to Sir Richard Orleston, who died anno 7 Henry V.

s.p. on which his two sisters and coheirs, Margaret, married to
William Parker, of Warehorne, and Joane, to Sir William Scott, of
Scotts hall, entitled their respective husbands to the possession of
this manor, whith its appurtenances, which, on the division of their
inheritance, was allotted to the latter, who died possessed of it in
the 12th year of king Henry VI. anno 1433. He had no issue by her,
but by his second wife Isabel, daughter of Vincent Herbert, alias
Finch, afterwards remarried to Sir Gervas Clifton, he left several
children, of whom the eldest, Sir John Scott, of Scotts-hall,
inherited this manor, which descended down to Sir Thomas Scott, who
died in the year 1594, and by will devised a yearly rent charge of one
hundred pounds out of this manor and those of Capel, Ham, and Brenset,
(now usually called the Scotts-hall annuity) to his youngest son
Robert, afterwards of Mersham, from one of whose descendants by a
female heir, it is now became the property of David Papillon, esq.

late of Acrise, but the fee of this manor, together with the advowson,
descended at length down to Geo. Scott, esq. of Scotts-hall, who about
the latter end of king George˙I.'s reign, passed it away to Sir Philip
Boteler, bart. of Teston, and his son, of the same name, died
possessed of it in 1772, ... (vol viii p 362-3)

regards,
Adrian

Brad Verity wrote,

[Rosie Bevan]

Dear Brad

I don't know whether the follwing is going to help. It comes from Syvia
Thrupp, 'The Merchant Class of Medieval London', (University of Michigan,
1989) p.340-341

"Forster, Stephen, fishmonger, ald. 1444-58. Beaven, II, 9. According to
Stowe MSS 860, fol. 54, the s. of Robert Foster of London, stockfishmonger.
According to a statement in his will (P.C.C., Stokton, 15; printed in full,
Somerset Medieval Wills, pp 181-85), he was baptised at Staunton Drew,
Somers., and had a brother Thomas, with a s. John and a grandson John,
living there at the time of his death, 1458; will names another brother
William Ford, of Norton Hawkfield, and a kinsman, John Forde of Norton
Malreward, Somers. Richard Forster, burgess and merchant of bristol, who
died 1450, entailing property in Somers. and Gloucs. on s. Richard, with
remainder to his brothers Thomas and Stephen, was possibly also a brother of
the ald. P.C.C. Rous, 16. Both he and Stephen left charitable bequests in
Bristol and Stanton Drew. In 1453-54 a Stephen Forster was one of the
deforciants in a fine concerning part of the manor of Ashton, Somers. 'Feet
of Fines for the County of Somerset', ed. E. Green, Somerset Record Society,
XII (1898), 117. A John Forster of Somerset had held property in London as
early as 1385. Middlesex Fines, 8 Ric II, no.74.

Stephen was survived by his w. Dame Agnes, three s., and a daughter Agnes.
John, of age at his father's death, is described as a gentleman in a deed of
1469 and as esquire in the will of his brother in law, Robert Morton,
gentleman. Hust. R.W.D.., 199/28; P.C.C.., Milles, 18. He d. without issue.
E.C.P.., 102/9. Robert was apprenticed to in the grocer's company, free
1468; he died between 1478 and 1484, his mother's will, dated in the latter
year, dated in the latter year, referring to his widow Agnes and two dau.
underage. P.C.C., Logge, 9. Stephen became a clerk and d. unmarried, 1478,
bequeathing 10L to a kinsman, John Forster, for his expenses at Cambridge
University. Harl. Ch., 58 G 11. Agnes m. twice, having had a da. Dorith
Feld, mentioned in her mother's will, and s. Robert and dau. Letice by
Robert Morton, gentleman of Lincoln's Inn and of the family of Cardinal
Morton. See E.C.P., 102/10; Morton's will; and note in Hist. Parl. B.
p.614."

According to the Visitation of Suffolk 1561, John Jernegan was son of John
Jernegan of Somerleyton d. 1474 and Jane/Agnes, da. of Sir John Darrell of
Calehill, Kent.
John Jernegan d. 1503 and Isabel Clifton had the following issue
1. Edward. Married Margaret (d. 1504) da. of Sir Edmund Bedingfield.
Secondly mary da. and coh of Richard Scrope of Bolton.
2. Sir Richard
3. Daughter stated to have married Palmer
4. Daughter stated to have married ---- Scott of Kimberley, Kent
5.[Elizabeth] Married Thomas Aslake
6. Mary. Married Thomas Stanhope of Rampton, Notts.

In William Betham, The Baronetage of England, 1801, v.1 p.51 under the
pedigree of Clifton of Clifton, Nottinghamshire (which is somewhat confused)
there is the following footnote
"About this time (Dr Thoroton says) there was a famous Sir Gervase Clifton
of this family, who has been thought to be son of this Sir John Clifton ;
but whether he was son, brother or cousin, I cannot yet discover. He married
Isabel, daughter of ----- Harbare, alias Finch, of Bradbourn in Kent and
widow of William Scot ; and was several times in the reign of of Henry VI
sheriff of Kent. He was (1445) lieutenant of Dover castle, under Humphrey
Duke of Gloucester. The king (1451) upon the resignation of Sir Richard
Vernon, made him, for his good services, treasurer of Calais and the marches
of the same; and the next year following granted the temporaliries of the
archbishoprick of Canterbury unto his hands, upon the death of John the
archbishop. he was a commander at several places in France. After Robert
Lord Willoughby of Eresby and Thomas Nevil, he was third husband to Maud,
neice [sic] and co-heir of Ralph Lord Cromwell, by Maud, his sister, second
wife of Richard Stanhope. In a pardon he had 9 Edw IV he was styled Gervas
Clifton, Knt, late of Bradbourn, alias of Eresby, in the county of Lincoln;
but continuing his zeal to his old master's interest, he was (1470)
dispatched at tewkesbury, and (1471) among the rest, proclaimed rebel and
traitor. he left issue by his first wife two daughters, Joan married to John
Digges, and Isabell to John Jerningham. he bore the same arms with this
family, as appears by his seal"[i.e. Clifton of Clifton, Notts]

Cheers

Rosie

[Robert S Baxter]

In a note sub Winchilsea in CP XII/2 pp 773-4 in reference to the
pedigree drawn by Philipott, Rouge Dragon, in 1620, of Finch:

"Though the later part of this ped. has some value, the earlier part
is spurious and indeed fraudulent, both as regards the Earls of
Pembroke...and the family of Finch, neither of whom has any descent
from Herbert the Chamberlain. This is proved by Round....who shows
that the latter descended from a Winchelsea burgess and wine-merchant,
Vincent Herberd (fl. 1292-1306), whose relative, perhaps a son or
son-in-law, Henry Finch, also of Winchelsea, acquired, circa 1343-50,
the manors of Netherfield and Icklesham, Sussex, both of which were
held by his descendants, the Earls of Winchisea, in the 17th
century..."

Does any one have access to VCH Sussex, vol ix, pp 108, 187, where the
true pedigree of Finch is set out and proved, and could post it for
us?

Regards,

Bob

[Brad Verity]

Dear Rosie, Adrian & Robert,

Many thanks for your helpful replies. My interest lies primarily in
the Scott family of Scott's Hall. The information has helped me
determine a few correlated things:

1) Isabel Herbert (aka Vincent/aka Fynch) was of the family that
eventually became Finch, Earls of Winchelsea. It is interesting to
note, as you point out Robert, that as early as 1620, this family was
trying to claim a Norman descent, as well as a connection to the
medieval Herberts, Earls of Pembroke. In reality it seems they were
descended from a wealthy medieval wine merchant, which sounds fine to
me with my 21st century sensibility, but was apparently not so
suitable in the early 17th century.

2) An article on Maud Stanhope, Lady Willoughby, and her sister Jane,
Lady Cromwell, in 'Medieval Prosopography' was incorrect in stating
that Maud's third husband Sir Gervase Clifton was a childless widower.
He clearly had at least one daughter, Isabel, the wife of John
Jernyngham, and left descendants through her. And maybe another
daughter as well, if Betham's Baronetage is correct. The article also
stated Sir Gervase was illegitimate, but that remains to be verified,
though the assertion that he was of the Cliftons of Clifton,
Nottinghamshire, seems correct.

3) Dame Agnes Foster was the widow of a Lord Mayor of London. But
what she and her son John had to do with property in Kent disputed
with the Jernynghams remains unclear.

Thanks again! -----Brad

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

In message <8ed1b63.02082...@posting.google.com>
bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote:

> Dear Rosie, Adrian & Robert,
>
> Many thanks for your helpful replies. My interest lies primarily in
> the Scott family of Scott's Hall. The information has helped me
> determine a few correlated things:
>
> 1) Isabel Herbert (aka Vincent/aka Fynch) was of the family that
> eventually became Finch, Earls of Winchelsea. It is interesting to
> note, as you point out Robert, that as early as 1620, this family was
> trying to claim a Norman descent, as well as a connection to the
> medieval Herberts, Earls of Pembroke. In reality it seems they were
> descended from a wealthy medieval wine merchant, which sounds fine to
> me with my 21st century sensibility, but was apparently not so
> suitable in the early 17th century.

As another who is interested in the Finches, I would be very interested
if you would post what you have found of the early ones, up to Moyle
Finch perhaps as he is almost the last who is within the remit of this
group.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org