Lucy (de Ros ?) de Audley, wife of Sir William de Ryther
John P. Ravilious
Hello All,
An interesting record in the Plea Rolls of the reign of Edward I
identifies Lucy, the widow of Henry de Audley (d.s.p. before 22 Apr
1276) as subseqently the wife of Sir William de Ryther [1]. While
she had no Audley descendants, my notes indicate she was the
ancestress of the subsequent Rythers of Ryther, and thereby of a
notable progeny (including Prince William, to be sure).
While this provides a partial identification for Lucy between
the Audley and Ryther pedigrees, no parentage for Lucy is otherwise
indicated. The texts of two interesting fines have been noted
which, if borne out, would indicate Lucy was a de Ros, and
apparently daughter of John de Ros, possibly the son (more likely
a younger brother) of Sir Robert de Ros of Helmsley (d. 1285), the
son of Sir William de Ross and his wife Lucy.
B. Westminster: Quindene of Michaelmas 3 Edw III 1329:
John de Ros, chivaler and Margaret his wife, by William de
Poynton, Margaret's attorney, quer., George de Rose, chivaler,
and Peter de Ryther, parson of the church of Kyrkeby-Misperton,
def., of the manors of Thornton in Cravene and Turnumhalle and
a moiety of the manor of Clif [Turnham Hall and Cliff, in the
parish of Hemingborough] and of the advowsons of the churches
of the said manor of Thornton and Ilkeleye, co. York, and of
the manor of Eykeryng [near Newark] and the the advowson of
the church of the same manor, co. Notts.: to hold to John and
Margaret and the heirs of John. ' [2]
C. Jim Hooper cites a subsequent IPM:
' At the Inquisition Post Mortem for Robert Ryther (6 Hen VII)
it is mentioned that he held the manor & advowson of Ryther,
by virtue of gift made by John, son of Robert Roos, by way of
fine & with the King's licence, to one William Ryther and Lucy
his wife in tail male, with remainder to the right heirs of
the said William.' [3]
The chronology would all point to either (A) John de Ros being
the brother, not son of Sir Robert, or (B) that John was the son
of Sir Robert, and the brother of Lucy (a daughter of Sir Robert
de Ros and Isabel de Aubigny, not otherwise identified). If Jim
Hooper's identification of Lucy (de Ros) de Ryther's issue as
being named William, John, Robert, Piers and Nicholas is correct,
certainly a Ros of Helmsley origin for Lucy would be understandable.
Should anyone have further information concerning the foregoing,
esp. access to the IPM from Henry VII's reign, that would be most
helpful.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Record of a suit against her brother-in-law William de Audley,
2 Nov 1281:
' Staff. and Salop. William de Ryther and Lucy his wife sued
William de Audidelegh for a third of the manor of Helley (Heleigh),
Dymmesdale, and Boteresdon, and for a third of the passagium of
Wrimestrete, and of the advowson of Audelegh; for a third of the
manors of Betteley, Dunestall, and of the vills of Borewardeslyme
(Burslem), Talk, Knotton, and Thurfeld, and for a third of a rent
of 20s. and of a dozen knives (cutellorum), and of half a pound of
cumin in Newcastle-under-Lyme, one-third of a water mill in
Chaveldon, a third of 10s. rent in Ruston, a third of 2s. rent in
Ridierd, a third of 12s. rent in Stanle in co. Stafford, and a
third of the vill of Forde, and of two parts of Marchumley, Weston,
Redcastle, Kentenesdon, Lakne, Wykeshull, and Haukeston, and of a
third of 10s. rent in Moston in co. Salop as her dower, of the gift
of Henry de Audidelegh her first husband.
William appeared and stated he only held a virgate of land in
Dymmesdale, and 6d. rent in Boteresdon, and a bovate of land in
Knotton, and that Ela the widow of James de Audelegh held a mark of
rent in Newcastleunder-Lyme, and she also held a third of his
tenements in Riston (Rushton), Ridiert, Stanle, Wymerstrete, and
Audelegh and Moston; and in Lakne, Wykeshull, and Haukeston, he
only held the services of John de Lakne, Robert de Wykeshull, and
William de Haukeston; and this was the whole of his tenure when
Lucy sued out her writ, viz., on 2nd November, 8 E. I., and he
appealed to a jury, and William de Rither and Lucy likewise.
The Sheriff is ordered to summon a jury for five weeks from
Easter. m. 49, dorso. ' [Plea Rolls of the Reign of Edward I,
9 Edw I.] See URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=52429
[2] George 'Jim' Hooper,
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~linleymh/Jim-p/p91.htm
[3] Ibid., sub _Lucy de Ros_
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~linleymh/Jim-p/p89.htm#i18174
* John P. Ravilious
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Friday, 26 January, 2007
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> An interesting record in the Plea Rolls of the reign of Edward I
> identifies Lucy, the widow of Henry de Audley (d.s.p. before 22 Apr
> 1276) as subseqently the wife of Sir William de Ryther [1]. While
> she had no Audley descendants, my notes indicate she was the
> ancestress of the subsequent Rythers of Ryther, and thereby of a
> notable progeny (including Prince William, to be sure).
>
> While this provides a partial identification for Lucy between
> the Audley and Ryther pedigrees, no parentage for Lucy is otherwise
> indicated. The texts of two interesting fines have been noted
> which, if borne out, would indicate Lucy was a de Ros, and
> apparently daughter of John de Ros, possibly the son (more likely
> a younger brother) of Sir Robert de Ros of Helmsley (d. 1285), the
> son of Sir William de Ross and his wife Lucy.
CP would agree with you in the Rither article, vol XI, p. 8. They say,
after a correction in Vol XIV, that Lucy was 'da. of John de Ros, s. of
Robert de Ros of Helmsley'. They cite (a) Exch Inq p.m. 170/7 and (b)
Gen Plantagenet Harrison's Notes which cited De Banco Rolls, 21 Hen VI,
m. 128 d, where her portion is said to have been the manor of
Gildhusdale, which was of the fee of Ros in 1284 (Book of Fees, vol vi,.
p. 50).
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
John P. Ravilious
Many thanks for that lookup. Evidently a case of a subsequent
article in CP [Ryther] including information not readily collated with
the older [Audley].
The following brief pedigree makes the link as you cite from CP
XI:8, as corrected in CP XIV. If you would care to link the Sir Robert
Ryther last shown with the Ryther generations shown in Genealogics,
that would give Prince William (and Ian and Leo) some additional
ancestors, replicated and no, to work with.
Cheers,
John
1 Sir Robert de Ros
----------------------------------------
Death: 17 May 1285[1]
Burial: Kirkham[2]
Father: Sir William de Ros (-ca1264)
Mother: Lucy 'filia Piers' (->1265)
of Helmsley, co. York and Belvoir, co. Leicester (de jure uxoris)[1]
summoned to Parliament 24 December 1264 by writ, held to have
become Lord Ros (in rebellion);
had custody of Prince Edward at Hereford Castle (the Prince
escaped his custody, 18 May 1265).
Surrendered Gloucester to the Prince, 29 June 1265; received
full pardon after Evesham, 14 August 1265[2]
charter of Sir Robert, witnessed by his brothers Sir Peter,
Sir William, Sir Alexander and Sir Herbert [ " Hiis testibus:
Dominis Petro de Ros, Willelmo de Ros, Alexandro de Ros,
Herberto de Ros, militibus et fratribus,..." ] enfeoffing
Thomas de Werke, chaplain, in certain lands in Helmsley,
dated 1264x1285 [Rutland MSS.IV:84, no. (21)[3] ]
' Robertus de Ros, dominus de Beuver.....advocatus prioratus de
Wartria ', confirmed the grants of his predecessors (incl. the
church of St. James) to Warter priory, on St. Michael's Day,
1279 [Mon.Angl. VI/1:300, Num. VII[5]]
'Robert son filz', knight.
Arms: ' Gules three water bougets argent a label of three
points azure '[ H S London, Rolls of Arms, Henry III,
Aspilogia 2, Society of Antiquaries, London,
1967 - ca. 1252 or later, B 66 ][6]
~ above arms differenced by a label (during his father's lifetime)
Spouse: Isabel d'Aubigny
Birth: bef 12 Jun 1233[7],[8]
Death: 15 Jun 1301[2]
Father: William d'Aubigny (-1242)
Mother: Isabel (->1284)
Marr: bef 17 May 1244[2]
Children: William (<1255-<1316)
Mary (-<1326)
Robert (-<1311)
John
Nicholas
Isabel
Joan
1.1 John de Ros
----------------------------------------
of Belvoir, co. Leics.
record of a deed done during his mother's lifetime, before
15 June 1301:
' (6) [Late 13th cent.] - Deed of feoffment by Richard, the
clerk, son of Philip de Beuver to John son of Sir Robert de
Ros, of a toft and croft, with appurtenances, within and
without the vill of Beuver, lying between the king's [high]
way and the land of William the miller, and formerly held
by Alice le Rede, to be held of the lady Isabel de Ros and
her heirs by the due and accustomed services.
Hiis testibus: Johanne Wade de Botlisford tunc ballivo de
Beuver; Rogero Wade de Botlisford; Roberto Basset de Wlstorp;
Galfrido Kingesheie de Beuver; Roberto pistore de eadem.
Pointed oval seal of Richard. ' [Rutland MSS., IV:20[3]]
Children: Lucy (->1294)
1.1.1a Lucy de Ros*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 3 Jul 1294[9]
record of a suit against her brother-in-law William de Audley,
2 Nov 1281:
' Staff. and Salop. William de Ryther and Lucy his wife sued
William de Audidelegh for a third of the manor of Helley
(Heleigh), Dymmesdale, and Boteresdon,...
... and he appealed to a jury, and William de Rither and Lucy
likewise. The Sheriff is ordered to summon a jury for five
weeks from Easter. m. 49, dorso. ' [Plea Rolls of the Reign
of Edward I, 9 Edw I.[10]]
she was living 30 Jan 1293/4, inquisition ad quod damnum with
her husband William de Ryther and the hospital of St. Nicholas
York [Yorks. Inqs. II:157-8[7]]
~ licence for the above granted 3 Jul 1294
[CPR 22 Edw I, p. 78, mem. 14[9]]
Spouse: Henry de Audley [1st husband]
Birth: 1251
Death: bef 22 Apr 1276, d.s.p.[2]
Father: Sir James de Audley (~1220-1272)
Mother: Ela Longespee (-<1299)
1.1.1b Lucy de Ros* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Sir William Ryther [2nd husband]
Children: Sir Robert (-1322)
1. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr &
David Faris).
2. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of
England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
3. Historical Manuscripts Commission, "The Manuscripts of His
Grace the Duke of Rutland, K.G. Preserved at Belvoir Castle,"
Vol. IV, London: Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office
by Mackie & Co., LD., 1905, ed. by J. Horace Round (p. 3).
4. William Page, ed., "Three Early Assize Rolls for the county of
Nortymberland, saec. XIII," Durham: Andrews & Co., 1890,
Surtees series Vol. 88.
5. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding
& Lepard; and Longman Rees
URL
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliographia/index.php?function=detail&id=2659
6. Brian Timms, "Glover's Roll (B1)," H S London, Rolls of Arms,
Henry III, Aspilogia 2, Society of Antiquaries, London, 1967,
http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/
7. William Brown, B.A., ed., "Yorkshire Inquisitions," The
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series), various
dates:, Vol. I (Record series vol. XII) - 1892, Vol. II
(Record series vol. XXIII) - 1898, Vol. III (Record series
vol. XXXI) - 1902, Vol. IV (Record series vol. XXXVII) - 1906.
8. Paul C. Reed, "Roger La Zouche," 31 March 1999,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, reed...@aol.com.
9. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Edward I. A.D. 1292-1301, London: for the Public
Record Office.
10. 'Plea Rolls for Staffordshire: 9 Edward I', "Staffordshire
Historical Collections, vol. 6 part 1," 1885, pp. 113-21,
online available, courtesy British History Online,
URL http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=52429
On Jan 26, 5:52 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
> In message of 26 Jan, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Friday, 26 January, 2007
>
> > Hello All,
>
> > An interesting record in the Plea Rolls of the reign of Edward I
> > identifies Lucy, the widow of Henry de Audley (d.s.p. before 22 Apr
> > 1276) as subseqently the wife of Sir William de Ryther [1]. While
> > she had no Audley descendants, my notes indicate she was the
> > ancestress of the subsequent Rythers of Ryther, and thereby of a
> > notable progeny (including Prince William, to be sure).
>
> > While this provides a partial identification for Lucy between
> > the Audley and Ryther pedigrees, no parentage for Lucy is otherwise
> > indicated. The texts of two interesting fines have been noted
> > which, if borne out, would indicate Lucy was a de Ros, and
> > apparently daughter of John de Ros, possibly the son (more likely
> > a younger brother) of Sir Robert de Ros of Helmsley (d. 1285), the
> > son of Sir William de Ross and his wife Lucy.CP would agree with you in the Rither article, vol XI, p. 8. They say,
> For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Douglas Richardson
I must be missing something. I've read your post three times, and
still fail to see your evidence that Lucy, wife of Sir William de
Ryther, was a member of the Roos family.
As far as I can tell, your only source for Lucy's parentage is an
online database (http://home.vicnet.net.au/~linleymh/Jim-p/
p89.htm#i18174) which merely states that "At the Inquisition Post
Mortem for Robert Ryther (6 Hen VII) it is mentioned that he held the
manor & advowson of Ryther, by virtue of gift made by John, son of
Robert Roos, by way of fine & with the King's licence, to one William
Ryther and Lucy his wife in tail male, with remainder to the right
heirs of the said William ..."
This late data inquisition does not state, mean, or imply that Robert
Ryther's ancestor, Sir William de Ryther's wife, Lucy, was a Roos.
While gifts of property were sometimes made between relatives, they
weren't always between parent and child, or brother and sister. Some
time ago, for example, I learned that a certain Hawise de Wysham had
property by "the gift" of Sir John Botetourt, Lord Botetourt, and his
wife, Maud. Since Lord Botetourt settled property on his other known
children, I theorized Hawise was probably his daughter. I've since
established beyond any doubt that Hawise Wysham was a Poynings, and
not a Botetourt at all. So I wouldn't make much of the term "gift."
If you have other evidence that Lucy Ryther was a Roos, by all means,
please post it. The Ryther family ancestry is most interesting.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
< B. Westminster: Quindene of Michaelmas 3 Edw III 1329:
< John de Ros, chivaler and Margaret his wife, by William de
< Poynton, Margaret's attorney, quer., George de Rose, chivaler,
< and Peter de Ryther, parson of the church of Kyrkeby-Misperton,
< def., of the manors of Thornton in Cravene and Turnumhalle and
< a moiety of the manor of Clif [Turnham Hall and Cliff, in the
< parish of Hemingborough] and of the advowsons of the churches
< of the said manor of Thornton and Ilkeleye, co. York, and of
< the manor of Eykeryng [near Newark] and the the advowson of
< the church of the same manor, co. Notts.: to hold to John and
< Margaret and the heirs of John. ' [2]
Dear John ~
The above Sir John de Roos and his wife, Margaret, whose fine you
posted can be readily identified as Sir John de Roos, Lord Roos of
Watton (died shortly before 16 Nov. 1338), of Watton, Norfolk, Ilkley
and Thornton, Yorkshire, Steward of the Royal Household, Admiral of
the Fleet north of Thames' mouth, and his wife, Margaret de Goushill.
For further particulars of this couple, see Douglas Richardson, Magna
Carta Ancestry (2005).
This Sir John de Roos can not possibly be John de Roos you have
proposed as the father of Lucy, wife successively of Henry de Audley
and Sir William de Ryther. You're off by one if not two generations!
If Lucy was a Roos and if Gildhusdale was her maritagium (as claimed
by CP XIV), this should be fairly easy to prove. I'm not sure,
however, that I would accept as evidence for Lucy's parentage a
lawsuit dated 21 Henry VI [1442-1443], as CP XIV has done. You show
Lucy was living as late as 1294, which is approximately 150 years
before the lawsuit took place. Testimony given 150 years after the
fact should be taken with a very large grain of salt, unless, of
course, original charters or a marriage settlement were produced as
evidence.