Robert de Lisle and Ermentrude de Ferrers/Talbot
Chris Phillips
description of the wife of Henry FitzGerold (d. c. 1231) and the mother of
his daughter Alice (wife of Robert de Lisle, d. by 1262), as "Ermentrude
Talbot" [Complete Peerage, vol. 8, p. 70 and Lisle chart pedigree near p.
48].
As Gordon mentioned, this and related issues have been discussed here in the
past, and the picture seems rather a confusing one. I wondered if anyone
could clarify or add to the previous discussions.
(1) One question is whether Ermentrude was a Talbot by birth, or the widow
of a Talbot. From a post by Ronny Bodine, 23 Aug 2001, Dugdale mentions that
Robert Talbot, Lord of Gainsborough, had a wife named Ermentrude (elsewhere
she was said to be living 18 John), and erroneously identifies her as the
daughter of a Robert son of Walchelin of Egginton.
(2) Other discussions (e.g. by Kay Allen, 26 February 1999, and others in
the thread "Ferrers-Chaundos-Annesley" from late August 2001) indicate that
this Robert son of Walchelin did have a daughter Ermentrude, who married
William de Stafford and was living 1253. From the dates given, this William
was born in the 1220s. In contrast, Robert de Lisle is said to have married
the daughter of Ermentrude "Talbot" by 1240, suggesting that Ermentrude
"Talbot" would probably be a generation older than Ermentrude the wife of
William de Stafford. So perhaps this is simply a case of two women of the
same name being confused.
(3) Going a little further away from Ermentrude "Talbot", there were also
various attempts to fit Robert son of Walchelin into the Ferrers family,
including the idea that Walchelin was identical with Walchelin de Ferrers, a
great nephew of Robert, first earl of Derby. As pointed out previously by
Rosie Bevan, CP (vol. 4, p. 191), doesn't mention a Robert among this
Walchelin's children, and Domesday Descendants (p. 459) agrees. Moreover,
Walchelin was ultimately succeeded in his English holdings by a daughter, so
it does seem clear that Robert was not his son.
I notice that Domesday Descendants (p. 967) mentions a Robert son of
Walchelin who was a Ferrers tenant at "Rodburn" in 1135 and also connected
with Egginton. This Robert was succeeded by his son Robert by 1166. This is
too early to be the father of Ermentrude, but he would seem likely to be of
the same family, as Ermentrude's father held Egginton and Radbourne,
according to the earlier posts. However, there is a puzzle in that Rosie
Bevan, 20 Aug 2001, mentions evidence that he obtained these manors by
marriage. But in any case it seems unlikely that Robert son of Walchelin was
a Ferrers.
Any further information on the points above will be gratefully received!
Chris Phillips
Rosie Bevan
By coincidence this question touches on some research I'm currently
doing on the Lathbury family of Eggington.
The pedigree given in an article on the Manor of Eggington
[F.N.Fisher, ‘Eggington Court Rolls 1306/7 – 1311/12', Journal of the
Derbyshire Archaeological and Natural History Society, v. LXXXV,
pp.36-61] shows the following
1.Walchelin of Radbourne 1086, fl 1125
2.William
2.Robert f. Walchelin d.c. 1160
3.Robert f. Robert f. Walchelin d.1232
+ Margaret, da.of William de Grendon d.1203, and Ermentrude
widow of Quintin Talbot
4.Ermentrude
+ William de Stafford fl 1286
4.Margaret
+ John de Chandos
From a case in the 1233 curia regis roll, it appears that William
Talbot, brother of Robert's wife Margery (Margaret), claimed custody
of the lands of Robert f.Robert f.Walchelin against William, Earl
Ferrers. A jury stated that Robert had held a quarter share of the
vill rents of Eggington by military service, which came about by his
marriage to the daughter and heir of William de Grendon. However,
Robert had also held in socage, in his own right, a quarter share of
the manor of Eggington from the heirs of William f.Ralph, Seneschal of
Normandy. (Supporting evidence of earlier fitz Walchelin interest in
Eggington, is that in 1141 Robert Ferrers II had granted Tutbury
priory the whole tithe of the new borough of Nottingham in lieu of the
silver mark which Robert f. Walchelin had given annually from rents in
Eggington. [Avrom Saltman, The Cartulary of Tutbury Priory,(Historical
Manuscripts Commission, 1962) no.71].) It appears that William
Talbot's interest lay in the land held in socage but it is not stated
how. Judgement went in his favour [CRR, v.XV no.133].
From this it seems that Margery de Grendon and William Talbot shared
the same mother. However there is some conflict over which Talbot
Ermentrude was married to. Whether she was the same as married to
Henry fitzGerold is difficult to say, but his widow, Ermentrude, was
living in 1233 [CRR v.XV no.185]. I think it unlikely that this would
be Ermentrude the grandaughter as she appears to have been a minor in
1232 on the death of her father. Her heirs were her five daughters by
William Stafford.
Although there seems to be no proof that Walchelin was related to the
Ferrers family, there is very strong onomastic evidence for a Ferrers
connection.
There is also something of a hint of it in charters relating to
Tutbury Priory, founded by Henry de Ferrers, whose caput of his honor
was at Tutbury Castle. Walchelin was the third of five witnesses of a
confirmation charter given around 1110 by Robert de Ferrers, of the
foundation and endowment of the priory by his parents [The Cartulary
of Tutbury Priory, no.103].
I hope some of this helps sort the puzzle.
Cheers
Rosie
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<b44rc3$ic$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Chris Phillips
Rosie Bevan wrote:
> By coincidence this question touches on some research I'm currently
> doing on the Lathbury family of Eggington.
>
> The pedigree given in an article on the Manor of Eggington
> Derbyshire Archaeological and Natural History Society, v. LXXXV,
> pp.36-61] shows the following
>
> 1.Walchelin of Radbourne 1086, fl 1125
> 2.William
> 2.Robert f. Walchelin d.c. 1160
> 3.Robert f. Robert f. Walchelin d.1232
> + Margaret, da.of William de Grendon d.1203, and Ermentrude
> widow of Quintin Talbot
> 4.Ermentrude
> + William de Stafford fl 1286
> 4.Margaret
> + John de Chandos
Many thanks for that helpful post, which does indeed make things clearer.
> From this it seems that Margery de Grendon and William Talbot shared
> the same mother. However there is some conflict over which Talbot
> Ermentrude was married to. Whether she was the same as married to
> Henry fitzGerold is difficult to say, but his widow, Ermentrude, was
> living in 1233 [CRR v.XV no.185]. I think it unlikely that this would
> be Ermentrude the grandaughter as she appears to have been a minor in
> 1232 on the death of her father. Her heirs were her five daughters by
> William Stafford.
Whereas the daughter of Ermentrude the wife of Henry FitzGerold was married
by 1240.
Chronologically, it looks as though this Ermentrude "Talbot" of CP would fit
as a daughter of NN Talbot and Ermentrude.
> Although there seems to be no proof that Walchelin was related to the
> Ferrers family, there is very strong onomastic evidence for a Ferrers
> connection.
> There is also something of a hint of it in charters relating to
> Tutbury Priory, founded by Henry de Ferrers, whose caput of his honor
> was at Tutbury Castle. Walchelin was the third of five witnesses of a
> confirmation charter given around 1110 by Robert de Ferrers, of the
> foundation and endowment of the priory by his parents [The Cartulary
> of Tutbury Priory, no.103].
Since posting yesterday, I noticed that "Domesday People" lists Walchelin at
p. 445, and makes the same point about a possible relationship with the
Ferrers family. It also calls him the ancestor of the Boscherville family; I
don't know how that fits in with the pedigree above.
Chris Phillips