Papal dispensations, 15th century, de la Mare/Talbot/Barre

[mk]

How does one check to see if a dispensation was issued? I'm interested in Sir Richard de la Mare (d 1435) who seems to have married first Isabel Barre (d. 1421), widow of Sir John Eynesford/Eylesford and secondly married Alice Talbot, widow of Thomas Barre the younger (d 1420), whom I take to be Isabel's brother. Would she not have been considered a sister under the law?

Best, Monica

[Peter Stewart]

On 09-Dec-20 9:30 AM, mk wrote:
> How does one check to see if a dispensation was issued? I'm interested in Sir Richard de la Mare (d 1435) who seems to have married first Isabel Barre (d. 1421), widow of Sir John Eynesford/Eylesford and secondly married Alice Talbot, widow of Thomas Barre the younger (d 1420), whom I take to be Isabel's brother. Would she not have been considered a sister under the law?

Affinity to a non-blood relative of a deceased spouse would not have
required a dispensation after 1215.

Peter Stewart

[mk]

Thanks, Peter, much appreciated.

Any idea who this Richard de la Mare might be? I'm having a hard time pinning him down.

His ipm is here

http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/24-463/

Regards, Monica

[Pam Delamare]

[Pam Delamare]

Hi Monica,
Firstly, here is the IPM of Isabel widow of Richard de la Mare and formerly widow of John de Eynesford

http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/21-772/

Land: Westbury on Severn: heir is John Barre son of Thomas Barre junior, knight , is her kinsman and next heir, aged 8 years and more.
If Malcolm de la Mare is involved/mentioned, perhaps Richard de la Mare is from Peter de la Mare (the Speaker’s) family of Little Hereford, Hereford; Kidderminister; Yatton, in Much Marcle, Hereford.

See IPM of JOHN DE EYLESFORD OF TULLYNGTON, knight
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol17/pp240-250#highlight-first

He is probably married to Isabel de la Barre = John de Eynesford.
Who is the John de la Barre who married Isabel Fitz Roger?
Also Richard de la Mare ended up with the lands of John de Eylesford, so he was probably a younger son of a de la Mare, but which one?

Here is another IPM where Richard de la Mare and Isabel are mentioned:
JOHN WROTH OF ABERGAVENNY, but may be unrelated since he is holding another moiety of land.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol19/pp234-250#highlight-first


ALICE WHO WAS WIFE OF THOMAS BARRE, KNIGHT
[Alice Talbot = Thomas Barre = Richard de la Mare]
http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/24-670/


Burghill – 1372 held by John Eynesford & Elizabeth Pembrugg of Humphrey Bohun and then passed to John Milbourne = Elizabeth Devereaux.

1421 Richard de la Mare, Sheriff of Hereford holds a moiety of the castle and manor of Snodhill & Dorstone 14 Hy VI
1436 Roger de la Mare, Sheriff of Hereford held Snodhill Castle, later is passed to the Nevills,, Richard Neville, Earls of Warwick.
Here is a copy about the Monumental Inscriptions in Cathedral Church of Hereford. These are not the usual arms of de la Mare which is usually 2 lions passant guardant Argent, or similar.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=sDNAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=hereford+de+la+mare&source=bl&ots=sTz8UxSsmW&sig=YHcNyiodp8012BfvGOCrekXlxw8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixlZjSxu3dAhUnzIMKHY1BCAQQ6AEwDnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=delamare&f=false

Possibilities for RICHARD DE LA MARE:
[Alice Talbot = Thomas Barre = Richard de la Mare]
[Isabel (Boulewas) or (fitz Roger) = John Barre = John Eynesford = Richard de la Mare]
Would Richard de la Mare marry his deceased wife’s daughter in law?
Isabel Fitz Roger?
Or was there actual an Isabel de la Barre who married John Eylesford of Tillington, Gloucs. Doug Richardson says that they were the surviving spouses of 2 siblings, Thomas Barre, Jr & his sister Isabel Barre Eylesford, children of Thomas Barre (Sr?).
It needs a lot more research.

Thomas Barre d 1388 = Hawise Pembridge, sister & ch of Richard Pembrige of Ayot St. Lawrence Herts
Thomas Barre 1349-1419 = Eliza d/o Wm Crozier d 1420 wid of Ralph Camoys and Edward Kendale
Thomas Barre Jr d 1420 = Alice Talbot 1393-1436 d/o Richard Talbot by Ankaret le Strange, sister of John Talbot, Lord Furnival; m2 Richard de la Mare.

1) John Barre = Idoine Hotoft, d/o John Hotoft of Knebworth, Herts, their heirs were

a. Joan Barre = Kynard de la Bere = Wm Catesby of Ashby St. Legers
b. Eliza Barre = Edmund Cornwall
c. Ankaret Barre = John Hanmer
These were the cousins and heirs in Isabel Barre who married Humphrey Stafford, Earl of Devon -1469. Her father was John Barr (d 1482-5) of Knebworth, Herts. Isabel Barre married 2 Thomas Bouchier. John Barre m2 Joan (Rigge) widow of Robert Greyndour.
See VCH Ayot St. Lawrence, Herts for further info.

The Eylesford family:
Gerard de Eylesford
Edmund Eynesford
John Eynesford d bef 1360
Eliza Eynesford = Piers Milbourne – Received Tillington & Burghill
John Millborne = Eliza Devereux
Simon Milborne = Eliza Eynesford who had 13 daughters.
Another John Eynesford b 1365 m Margaret d/o Roger Belers, her heir is Ralph Cromwell d 1364 = Amice Bellers. But this John Eynesford is the heir of John Eynesford d 1395 = Isabel (s/o Hugh Eylesford, s/o Richard Eylesford).


Thomas el la Barre 1349-1419 in History of Parliament
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/barre-sir-thomas-de-la-1349-1419

Alice Talbot’s side of things are recorded, but Isabel Barr’s side is not so clear (to me).

I have lots of research, but I don’t know what it adds up to.

Richard de la Mare had 2 daughters: Margaret b 1423 and Anne whom I haven’t heard anything further of them.

I believe Richard de la Mare is an unrecorded member of the de la Mare family of Little Hereford, Kidderminster & Yatton in Much Marcle, Heref. Dugdale, and the other genealogists back in the day didn’t bother about him, even although he and Isabel had their effigy in Cathedral Church of Hereford.

By the way, de la Mare is spelled very many ways de la Mere, Mara, Mora, More, anything close.

Pam

[mk]

On Wednesday, December 9, 2020 at 10:10:17 PM UTC-5, Pam Delamare wrote:
> Hi Monica,
> Firstly, here is the IPM of Isabel widow of Richard de la Mare and formerly widow of John de Eynesford
>

>Hi Pam (sorry about formatting, having some problems)

It looks to me as if Isabel who married Eylesford/Eynesford then Richard de la Mare was the sister of Thomas Barre junior whose widow Alice was Richard's second wife. So they would have been sisters in law. Isabel's heir would have been her nephew, John, son of Thomas jr. and Alice, and the heirs of her daughter Elizabeth Eylesford, wife of John Milbourne.

I'm not familiar with Isabel FitzRoger. I have noted on my tree that Isabel and Thomas (jr.) had a brother John but that he married an Avice Poyntz, but no source. Was he the John Barre in question?

“William de Eylesford, having made the manor house of Tillington his place of abode, obtained episcopal sanction in 1341 for the erection and endowment of a chapel dedicated to St. Michael with an oratory therein. Sir John Eylesford, elected a representative for Herefordshire to ten parliaments, married Isabella, daughter of Sir Thomas de la Barre, who had Richard Delamere of Little Hereford for her second husband. This lady enjoyed during many years a considerable dowry settled upon her at her first wedlock. She had one child, Elizabeth Eylesford, who was the wife of Sir Piers Milbourne, of the county of Lincoln.

Collections Towards the History and Antiquities of the County of Hereford, p. 51

Alice Talbot Barre's son John Barre mentions his de la Mare half siblings when he founded a chantry in 1474. They are Thomas, Margaret and Ann.


1474. Licence for John Barre, knight, of his heirs and executors to found a perpetual chantry of one

Feb. 15 chaplain to celebrate divine service daily at the altar of St. Anne in the parish church of



St. Mary, Clehungre, co. Hereford, for the good estate of the King and his consort, and

the said John Barre and Joan his wife, late the wife of Robert Greyndoure, esquire,

Thomas Bourchier, knight, and Isabel his wife, Countess of Devon, daughter of the said

John Barre and Edonia his wife, Ankaret the wife of John Hanmere, esquire, and sister

of the said John Barre and Richard Delamere [sic, but should be Delabere, son of Kynard and his wife Joan Barre], esquire, nephew of the said John Barre and their souls after death and the souls of Richard Pembrigge, knight, and Petronilla his wife, Thomas Barre the elder, knight, and Elizabeth his wife. Thomas Barre the younger, knight, their son and Alice his wife, parents of the said John Barre, Edonia late the wife of the said John Barre and daughter and heiress of John Hotofte, esquire, Edmund Cornewaile, knight, and Elizabeth his wife the elder sister of the said John Barre, Joan

late the wife of Kynard Delabere, another of the sisters of the said John Barre, Thomas

Delamare, son of Richard Delamare and the said Alice his wife, mother of the said John

Barre, and Margaret and Anne daughters of the said Richard Delamare and Alice.



Notes on Barry Genealogy in England and Wales, p. 34



Richard's ipm connects him with these manor, do any of them tie him into any known de la Mares?

Great Bolas, Shropshire
Isombridge, Shropshire
Snodhill, Herefordshire
Brimfield, Herefordshire
Credenhill, Herefordshire
Dorstone, Herefordshire
Tyberton, Herefordshire
He is frequently mentioned with the Merburys and Hays.



some other snippets about Richard, but nothing to firmly place him. I'll see what else I have stashed away :)


“Richard de la Mare married Alice Talbot, widow of Sir Thomas Barre. She died in 1436 in the same year as her second husband. He held Bolas by the grant of John Prophete, one time Dean of Hereford Cathedral, and also occupied, at the time of his death, the Talbot manor of Credenhill. In the autumn of 1433 Richard and Alice were summoned by Lady Margaret [Beauchamp Talbot] to spent [sic] Christmas with her at Corfham. They were at that time in residence at Credenhill for Richard Clerk, Talbot’s Auditor, made a special journey to the manor to deliver his Lady’s summons (BP 76/1433-34; Wedgwood, p572; Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Henry VI, pp16, 166).

http://research-information.bristol.ac.uk/files/34502953/488666_vol1.pdf


As by this time Sir John [Chandos] was over 50 and without heirs of his body, in 1404 he began to settle the reversion of his lands (subject to a life interest for himself and his wife) upon feoffees, who mostly came from the locality. In this connexion it suffices to say that for Wellington and Fownhope his principal trustees were Thomas de la Hay* (his neighbour at Peterchurch), Thomas Walwyn I*, Sir John Oldcastle* and (Sir) John Skydemore*, and that after 1420 Snodhill was conveyed to Richard de la Mare and John Merbury*. It was possibly with regard to these settlements that the lawyer and Speaker-to-be,William Stourton*, entered into a series of recognizances with Chandos, the bonds to be redeemed between June 1409 and November 1411.3 Despite his advancing years, Sir John remained active in Herefordshire well into the 15th century. He was present at the county elections to the Parliaments of 1410, 1414 (Nov.), 1417, 1419, 1420, 1421 and 1422, and in January 1419 he presided at the trials of a number of suspected supporters of the lollard, Sir John Oldcastle, his former feoffee.4

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/chandos-sir-john-1349-1428

Contact me offlist if you like.



Best, Monica