New MC and PA Line, Joan Hastings (wife of Thomas, 4th Lord Morley)
The...@aol.com
Tuesday, 26 June, 2001
Hello All,
Please note the following gaffe in the earlier message: whereas I
alleged a descent from Edward I for Joan Hastings, this in fact does not
exist (as documented) - this in fact is a descent of her nephew, son of Anne
le Despencer.
There is, however, a descent from the well-known 'Kilroy' of the
Plantagenets, William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury and son of Henry II of
England. A small consolation prize, perhaps,......
John
The...@aol.com
Hello All,
I am sending this message to advise all, and especially Douglas
Richardson (re: his forthcoming MC and PA publications) that I have
discovered the identity of Joan, wife of Thomas, 4th Lord Morley.
The identification of Joan, first wife of Thomas Morley is important as
she was the mother of his son and heir Robert Morley (d.v.p. before 12 Nov
1403), and thereby ancestress of the subsequents Lords Morley and others
(including several GARDs, re: whom see below). In CP, Vol. IX (Morley), p.
217 it was stated that Thomas de Morley
'm., 1stly, in or before Apr. 1374, Joan, whose parentage is not
known.'
following which in note f of the same page it was observed that 'She
was possibly a Gournay' , citing a settlement involving Joan and one Edmund
de Gournay in 1374.
However, in the Visitation of Yorkshire (Harleian Series, Vol. 16) we
find on p. 155 the issue of 'Hugh Hastynges, son & heyr' and his wife
'Margaret doughter to Adam Everyngham Lord of Laxston' identified as follows:
..1. 'Hugh Hastynges son & heyr to Hugh = Agnes doughter to Edward Lord
Spencer & afterwards wyff to the Lord Morley'
..2. 'John Hastynges 2nd son'
..3. 'Jone wyff to Sir Thomas Morley Knight'
..4. 'Elsabeth wyff to Sir Thomas [illeg.] Knight'
..5. 'Margaret wyff to John or Sir Robert Wynfeld Knight'
Under other circumstances, one might not attribute a great deal of
credit to this specific identification (Joan, aka Jone, #3 above) in the
Visitation pedigree, except for the following reasons:
A. The identification and names are in complete agreement ('Jone' = Joan,
'Thomas Morley' = himself) with the other documentation and sources, CP and
elsewhere, requiring no explanation as to any deviation at this point.
B. This portion of the pedigree is accurate in other details, including the
identification of Anne le Despencer ['Agnes Spencer' above], wife of Hugh
Hastings [brother of Joan] as subsequently wife of Thomas, Lord Morley [see
CP, Vol VI -Hastings, p. 356; and Vol IX -Morley, p. 217].
C. The chronology presents no problem. In fact, what is shown is that Thomas
Morley, his first wife (sister of Sir Hugh Hastings) having died before 2 Dec
1384 and his brother-in-law having died in Spain in 1386, then married as his
2nd wife the widow of his brother-in-law, before October 1390 [CP Vol IX, p.
217]. There was a dispensation for the marriage to which I do not have
access, but which may well go on to support the explanation above [CP
citation = Cal. Papal Letters, vol. iv, p. 375]
There is a relationship whereby Thomas Morley and Anne le Despencer were half
5th cousins, both descended from William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby and Agnes
of Chester, which may be the basis for the dispensation.
D. Most importantly, the relationship of Joan as a daughter of Hugh Hastings
and Margaret Everingham is substantiated by the subsequent marriage of John
Hastings, of Gressenhall, Norfolk & c., and Anne Morley, daughter of Thomas,
5th Lord Morley in or after April 1434. As noted in CP, Vol VI (Hastings),
p. 360, note f states concerning this marriage,
'Papal mandate to the Bishop of Norwich to grant a dispensation for the
marriage of John Hastinges and Anne Morley, although they were related in the
3rd-4th degree of consanguinity: xi kal. Maii 4 Eugenius IV [21 Apr. 1434].'
This relationship is exactly as shown below, based on the Visitation
pedigree of Hastings and the family relationships identified in CP and
elsewhere:
Hugh Hastings = Margaret Everingham
d. 1369 d. aft 25 Nov 1375
_______________________________________________
/
/
Sir Hugh = (2) Anne le Despencer = (2) Thomas Morley = (1) Joan Hastings
Hastings d. 30 Oct 1426 d. 24 Sep 1416 d.
before Dec 1384
/ /
Edward Hastings = Muriel Robert Morley =
Isabel
d. 6 Jan 1437/38 Dinham d.v.p. bef 1404
/ /
/ Thomas
Morley = Isabel
/ d. 6 Dec 1435
de la Pole
/
/
John Hastings, of Gressenhall & c. = Anne Morley
There is no other identifiable link between John Hastings and Anne
Morley that would provide the basis for the dispensation described above.
Through Joan Hastings, wife of Thomas Morley and mother of Robert,
there is a descent from Edward I of England and several from various MC
Sureties. I will post an AT for your reference in the next day or so.
* * * * * * * *
The above information will also be of interest to several on the list,
as this has a direct bearing [see PA, 2nd edition, pp. 131, 246] on the
ancestry of the following Gateway Ancestors of Royal Descent:
..1. William Asfordby
..2. William Bladen
..3. William Farrar
..4. William Skepper
..5. & 6. George & Nehemiah Blakiston
Hope this is helpful.
Good luck, and good hunting to all.
John
The...@aol.com
--part1_6f.173fcc8c.286a70c9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tuesday, 26 June, 2001
Hello All,
It appearing that my earlier post is wandering the ether elsewhere (and
a followup post has since appeared), I am resending same to the list.
If somehow the original appears also, my e-apologies.
John
--part1_6f.173fcc8c.286a70c9_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline
Return-path: <The...@aol.com>
From: The...@aol.com
Full-name: Therav3
Message-ID: <55.178347e...@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:36:13 EDT
Subject: New MC and PA Line, Joan Hastings (wife of Thomas, 4th Lord Morley)
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
CC: royala...@email.msn.com, kimeve...@hotmail.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124
Tuesday, 26 June, 2001
Hello All,
..1. William Asfordby
..2. William Bladen
..3. William Farrar
..4. William Skepper
Hope this is helpful.
John
--part1_6f.173fcc8c.286a70c9_boundary--
Sutliff
----- Original Message -----
From: <The...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 1:36 PM
Subject: New MC and PA Line, Joan Hastings (wife of Thomas, 4th Lord
Morley)
<snip>
>
> 'Papal mandate to the Bishop of Norwich to grant a dispensation
for the
> marriage of John Hastinges and Anne Morley, although they were
related in the
> 3rd-4th degree of consanguinity: xi kal. Maii 4 Eugenius IV [21 Apr.
1434].'
<snip>
> There is no other identifiable link between John Hastings and
Anne
> Morley that would provide the basis for the dispensation described
above.
>
> Through Joan Hastings, wife of Thomas Morley and mother of
Robert,
> there is a descent from Edward I of England and several from various
MC
> Sureties. I will post an AT for your reference in the next day or
so.
<snip>
Congratulations on your very fine work. I sincerely hope you have
found the correct information. A couple of ideas come to mind. There
is one source which ought to be checked (CP XIV) to see if a
correction was made in identifying Joan's parentage. It may be in this
volume. Otherwise there are two hurdles to get over; one very
difficult. The first is to make certain that Anne's mother Isabel de
la Pole had no ancestors within the degree requiring a Papal mandate.
The second is the real roadblock. The parentage of Isabel, wife of
Robert Morley d.v.p. bef 12 Nov. 1403 is also unknown according to CP.
Thus it is possible that the Papal mandate might have applied to her
ancestry. As her links are unknown, it makes a bit more work for you.
Have you checked the PRO or elsewhere for other supporting evidence?
The former can be checked online. In case you need the url, it is:
http://www.pro.gov.uk/catalogues/
I am sure others on the list will pitch in with other ideas to help
support your work. Good show.
Best regards,
Henry Sutliff
The...@aol.com
Hello Henry,
Thanks for your feedback and suggestions.
I don''t have access to CP Vol XIV, but will review same when access to
a copy is acquired.
I have found no apparent leads in the on-line PRO catalogue, although
the descriptions indicated may easily not disclose some relevant details.
There are references to documents relating to the family of the Lords Morley,
but what I have identified so far seem to have been reviewed by the writer of
the CP article re: the Morleys.
The ancestry of Isabel, wife of Robert Morley (d. before 1404) does not
appear to have real potential as a source of parentage requiring a
dispensation as mandated in 1434 for John Hastings and Anne Morley. In order
to equate to the relationships set forth in the mandate [see CP Vol. VI, p.
360n], a parent of the said Isabel would have to be a brother or sister of
one of the following:
+ 1. Sir Hugh Hastings (d. 1386);
+ 2. Anne le Despenser, daughter of Edward, 4th Lord le Despenser and
Elizabeth Burghersh;
+ 3. John Dinham, 5th Lord Dinham;
+ 4. Ellen, wife of John Dinham [not otherwise identified - the lack of
information on her family and that of Isabel above does provide a chink here
- but see below *]
The one candidate identifiable as a sibling of #1 above is Joan
Hastings, the subject of my post. Of the siblings of Anne le Despenser [#2
above], her brother Thomas, 5th Lord le Despenser (exe. 13 Jan 1399/1400) had
a daughter Isabel, wife of two Richard Beauchamps [see PA, 2nd ed., p. 86];
her sister Elizabeth, wife of John de Arundel, had three sons [PA p. 50]; her
sister Margaret, wife of Robert de Ferrers of Chartley, had one daughter,
Philippe, wife of Thomas Greene [PA p. 138].
I have found no evidence of a sibling of John, Lord Dinham (#3 above), but
this does not by any means prove that no such sibling existed.
(* Note that I believe William Dugdale properly identified Isabel as a
daughter of 'the Lord Molines', i.e. Richard de Moleyns, and Eleanor de
Beaumont - this is only a theory yet unproven, but if this is proven it will
take Isabel 'Out of the Running' as a challenger in the Mandate Medley we are
now discussing.......)
As to an individual in the ancestry of Isabel de la Pole, mother of
Anne Morley, having a relationship that would give rise to the 1434 mandate,
there is no support for such a relationship here. For this to be the case,
it would mean that one of the four individuals identified above (noted '+')
would have to be a sibling of one of the four grandparents of Isabel de la
Pole, to-wit:
..1. Michael de la Pole, 1st Earl of Suffolk
..2. Katherine de Wingfield, his wife
..3. Hugh de Stafford, 2nd Earl of Stafford
..4. Philippa de Beauchamp, daughter of Thomas de Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick,
his wife.
With the potential exception of 'Ellen the Unidentified' ['+ 4.'
above], there is no potential relationship here.
If someone should find an exception (or other evidence, whether
supporting or defeating an alleged or potential relationship re: the above),
I would certainly be glad to hear of it. However, as I set forward earlier,
based on the evidence that DOES exist (from the Visitation pedigree and the
1434 mandate referenced therein), I think the relationship between John
Hastings and Anne Morley has now been established.
Again, thanks for your comments and criticisms (current and pending).
If you should find further ammunition (new or reloads), 'You may fire when
ready, Gridley!'
Good continued luck and good hunting.
John
Sutliff
[Oct 1949]: 287-95 called "The Early Wingfields" by G. Andrews
Moriarty. I bring this to your attention as Moriarty discusses why he
thinks the identity of Margaret Hastings (daughter of Sir Hugh
Hastings of Elsing) as wife of Sir John Wingfield of Letheringham (d.
1389) was correct.
Best,
Henry
----- Original Message -----
From: <The...@aol.com>
To: <ss...@earthlink.net>; <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <royala...@email.msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: New MC and PA Line, Joan Hastings (wife of Thomas, 4th
Lord Morley)
Rosie Bevan
Wingfield pedigrees.
"Sr John Wingfield of Letheringham, k. maried Margrett daughter of Sr Hugh
Hastings of Elsing in Norff. k. by his wife Margret, d. of Sir Adam
Everingham, k. and lyeth buried at Letheringham, as appeareth by his
monument."
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: New MC and PA Line, Joan Hastings (wife of Thomas, 4th Lord
Morley)
> Just in case you haven't seen it, there is an article in NEHGR CIII
> [Oct 1949]: 287-95 called "The Early Wingfields" by G. Andrews
> Moriarty. I bring this to your attention as Moriarty discusses why he
> thinks the identity of Margaret Hastings (daughter of Sir Hugh
> Hastings of Elsing) as wife of Sir John Wingfield of Letheringham (d.
> 1389) was correct.
>
> Best,
>
> Henry
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <The...@aol.com>
> To: <ss...@earthlink.net>; <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Cc: <royala...@email.msn.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 8:31 PM
> Subject: Re: New MC and PA Line, Joan Hastings (wife of Thomas, 4th
> Lord Morley)
>
>
The...@aol.com
Hello Rosie, Henry et al.,
Thanks for the posts re: the Hastings connection with Sir John
Wingfield, knight, of Letheringham.
I see sources (on-line, i.e. uncertain) alluding to children of this
John Wingfield and Margaret Hastings his wife:
..1. Robert Wingfield, of Letheringham, d. May 1409, ancestor of the later
Wingfields of Letheringham
..2. John Wingfield, d.s.p.
..3. Eleanor Wingfield, d.s.p.
This source also shows Thomas Wingfield, uncle of Katherine Wingfield
(wife of Michael de la Pole, Earl of Suffolk (d.1389) as the progenitor of
the Wingfields of Letheringham. Thus the foregoing Hastings connection has
no bearing on the connection discussed earlier, between John Hastings and
Anne Morley, which necessitated a Papal dispensation as mandated in 1434.
I have a cousin with Wingfield roots, in central Virginia. I note
that the GARD ancestors of the Virginia Wingfields [as given in PA] are
descended from the Wingfields of Letheringham. Has the foregoing ancestry
been proven for the Letheringham branch back to Thomas Wingfield, as alluded
to above?
Good luck and good hunting.
John
Betty Harris
just published a new book on the Ancestry of robert Abell. I need info from
hiim on status of my order. Would appreciate help. I have his phone but no
one there.
Sutliff
Carl's email is cbo...@sosinet.net
My copy of his new book arrived yesterday. Carl lives in Southern
California and I live in Central California, so if you ordered
_Medieval English Ancestors of Robert Abell_ you can guesstimate how
long it will take to you.
Best regards,
Henry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Betty Harris" <bha...@inebraska.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Kay Allen AG
Hap does.
Kay Allen AG
Margaret Olson
>
>Does anyone have an email address for Carl Boyer of Santa Clarita who has
>just published a new book on the Ancestry of robert Abell. I need info from
>hiim on status of my order. Would appreciate help. I have his phone but no
>one there.
Be patient. I got my book today. I've not had time to look at it yet.
Margaret