C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys

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Douglas Richardson

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Dec 29, 2006, 1:55:18 PM12/29/06
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Dear Newsgroup ~

It has been noted in the past on soc.genealogy.medieval that King
Edward IV of England referred on more than one occasion to William
Hastings, Lord Hastings, and his brother, Richard Hastings, Lord
Welles, as his kinsmen [References: Calendar of Patent Rolls,
1467-1477 (1900): 460 (William Hastings styled "king's kinsman);
Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1476-1485 (1901): 152, 154 (instances of
Sir William Hastings and his brother, Richard Hastings, Lord Welles,
styled "king's kinsmen")]. To date, the nature of this kinship
has not been discovered.

In my study of royal kinsfolk, I've noted that after 1250, the English
king could and did acknowledge distant relationships, albeit invariably
within the 5th degree (or if you prefer, 4th cousins) on at least one
side. Consequently, the relationship between King Edward IV of England
and the Hastings family could be (and in this instance probably was)
quite distant. In such cases, the connection to the king is usually
found by tracing the highest born side of an individual's ancestry.

In the case of William Hastings and his brother, Richard, the highest
born ancestry they possess is through their mother, Alice Camoys, wife
of Sir Leonard Hastings. Although Alice has sometimes been claimed to
be a daughter of Sir Thomas Camoys (died 1421), Lord Camoys, by his 2nd
wife, Elizabeth Mortimer, it is now known that Alice was actually the
daughter of Sir Thomas Camoys, Lord Camoys, by his 1st wife, Elizabeth,
daughter and heiress of William Louches. For a discussion of Alice
Camoys' correct parentage, see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry
(2004).

A somewhat incomplete account of the Camoys family is included in
Complete Peerage, 2 (1912): 506-510. Alice Camoys' line of descent
presented below is based on that account, with additions from my own
research:

1. Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, died 1336.
2. Sir John de Camoys, of Norfolk, younger son, living 1362, married
(2nd) ?Elizabeth ____ (doubtless a near kinswoman of William le
Latimer, K.G., 4th Lord Latimer).
3. Sir Thomas Camoys, Lord Camoys, died 1421, married (1st) Elizabeth
Louches.
4. Alice Camoys, married Sir Leonard Hastings.

For there to be a kinship between King Edward IV and the Hastings
family, it would almost have to come through one of the wives of the
Camoys family, this being the highest born family in the Hastings
ancestry. Yet, we are met with two immediate blocks in that the wives
of Thomas Camoys (died 1421) and his father, Sir John de Camoys (living
1362) seemingly have no connection whatsoever to the families in King
Edward IV's ancestry. Sir John de Camoys' wife, ?Elizabeth, was almost
certainly of baronial descent as her son, Thomas, was called "cousin"
by Sir William le Latimer, K.G., 4th Lord Latimer. The relationship
between Thomas Camoys and Lord Latimer must have been close, as Lord
Latimer bequeathed Thomas Camoys a manor in his 1381 will, and also
settled on him the reversion of various properties in Calais
[Reference: Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 108 (will of William
Latimer)]. Yet Lord Latimer possesses nothing in his ancestry that
would yield him a near enough connection to King Edward IV of England
which justify the king referring to Sir Thomas Camoys' grandsons as his
kinsfolk.

That leaves us Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, died 1336, who was the
great-great-grandfather of William Hastings and his brother, Richard
Hastings. Sir Ralph de Camoys is known to have married twice. He
married (1st) in 1303 to Margaret de Brewes, daughter of William de
Brewes, Knt., of Bramber, Sussex, by his 3rd wife, Mary, daughter of
Robert de Roos, Knt. He had one son, Thomas, Knt., by this marriage.
Margaret was living in 1304-1305, when she and Roger conveyed the manor
of Little Bookham, Surrey to her mother, Mary de Brewes [Reference:
List of Inquisitions ad Quod Damnum, Part I (Lists and Indexes, No.
XVII): 83]. She was likely still living in 1307, when Ralph was
summoned "with his consort" to attend the Coronation of King Edward II.
Following Margaret's death, Sir Ralph de Camoys married (2nd) sometime
before 1319 a certain Elizabeth, by whom he had three sons, Hugh, Knt.,
John, Knt., and Ralph, and two daughters, Margaret and Isabel.
Complete Peerage states that Sir Ralph de Camoys' second wife,
Elizabeth, was "probably a daughter or sister of William de Rogate."
Yet, the three sources cited as evidence of Elizabeth's parentage do
not bear this out. In fact, there is nothing in these sources which
would suggest that Elizabeth was a Rogate at all.

The question then is: Who is Elizabeth, the second wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys? Actually the answer to her identity has been available in
print since at least 1905. An early visitation of Sussex gives a
somewhat garbled account of the baronial Camoys family. This account
was submitted by the Lewknor family who were the lineal heirs of the
Camoys family. According to this visitation, Sir Ralph de Camoys
married "..... d. of Hugh le Spencer Erle of Winchester." [Reference:
Benolte et al., Vis. of Sussex 1530 & 1633-4 (H.S.P. 53) (1905):
29-30 (Camoys pedigree)]. As far as I can tell, this visitation
record was either overlooked or completely ignored by Complete Peerage.

As for Sir Ralph de Camoys and his wife, Elizabeth, they occur together
in many records, often with the Despenser family. In 1305 and again in
1313, Ralph received letters of protection while going beyond the seas
on the King's affairs with Hugh le Despenser the elder. Ralph was
summoned to Parliament from 26 Nov. 1313 to 1 April 1335, by writs
directed Radulpho de Camoys, whereby he is held to have become Lord
Camoys. In 1319 Sir Ralph and his wife, Elizabeth, and Hugh le
Despenser were pardoned for acquiring to them and the heirs of Ralph
the bailiwick of the forestship of Aisholt [Hampshire] and Wolmer
[Sussex] from Richard de Venuz without license. In 1320 Ralph served
as one of Hugh le Despenser's attorneys. In 1321 he and his wife,
Elizabeth, granted land in Trotton, Sussex and elsewhere to William de
Rogate for life. In 1323-1324 he and his wife, Elizabeth, settled
the manor of Cokeham (in Sumpting), Sussex on themselves for life, with
reversion to their son, Ralph. In 1324 the king granted the manor of
Westbury, Hampshire to Ralph, his wife, Elizabeth, and their son, Hugh.
In 1325-1326 Ralph and his wife, Elizabeth, settled a messuage and
lands in Woolavington, Sussex on themselves for life, with reversion to
their son, John. In 1326 he and his wife, Elizabeth, and their son,
John, were allowed the yearly fair at Rogate, Sussex. Ralph was
pardoned in Feb. 1326/7 for his adherence to the Despensers in their
rebellion against King Edward II.

As shown above, Elizabeth, wife of Sir Ralph de Camoys, appears in many
records. She and her husband made careful provision for their three
sons, Hugh, John, and Ralph. These are all good indications that
Elizabeth herself was of high rank. Moreover, the names of Elizabeth's
children, Hugh, Margaret, and Isabel are all well known Despenser
family names.

Besides the links to the Despenser family cited above, I also find that
Sir Ralph de Camoys had two other important ties to the Despensers.
First, Margaret de Goushill, daughter of Sir Ralph de Camoys' first
cousin, Sir Ralph de Goushill, was married before 1313 to Sir Philip de
Despenser, younger son of Hugh le Despenser, Earl of Winchester.
Second, in 1326 that Sir Ralph de Camoys and Isabel de Hastings
(another daughter of Earl Hugh le Despenser), purchased the marriages
of the two Foliot co-heiresses, Margery and Margaret, and married them
to their respective sons.

Reviewing the above information, I find that Sir Ralph de Camoys' wife,
Elizabeth, was of sufficient rank to be the daughter of Earl Hugh le
Despenser. Sir Ralph de Camoys' close association to the Despenser
family is more than evident. Sir Ralph de Camoys' own rank as baron
was sufficient for him to have married an Earl's daughter. Lastly,
Ralph and Elizabeth's children bear witness of Elizabeth's Despenser
parentage.

As a final piece of evidence, I find that William Hastings and his
brother, Richard Hastings, would be kin to King Edward IV of England
once in the 5th and 7th degrees of kindred (or, if you prefer, 4th
cousins twice removed), and once in the 5th degree and 8th degrees of
kindred (or, if you prefer, 4th cousins thrice removed), by virtue of
their common descent from Isabel de Beauchamp (died 1306), wife of Sir
Patrick de Chaworth and Hugh le Despenser, Earl of Winchester, as shown
below:

1. Isabel de Beauchamp, married (2nd) Hugh le Despenser, Knt., Earl of
Winchester.
2. Elizabeth le Despenser, living 1370, married before 1319 Ralph de
Camoys, Knt., Lord Camoys.
3. John de Camoys, Knt., of Norfolk, born c. 1320, living 1362, married
(2nd) ?Elizabeth ____ (doubtless a near kinswoman of William le
Latimer, K.G., 4th Lord Latimer).
4. Thomas Camoys, Knt., Lord Camoys, died 1421, married (1st) Elizabeth
Louches.
5. Alice Camoys, married Leonard Hastings, Knt., of Kirby Muxloe,
Leicestershire.
6. William Hastings, K.G., 1st Lord Hastings, Chamberlain of the
Household for King Edward IV.

1. Isabel de Beauchamp, married (1st) Patrick de Chaworth, Knt.
2. Maud de Chaworth, born 1282, living 1320, married Henry of
Lancaster, Knt., Earl of Lancaster and Leicester.
3. Eleanor of Lancaster, married (2nd) Richard de Arundel, Knt., Earl
of Arundel and Surrey.
4. Alice Arundel, married Thomas de Holand, K.G., 2nd Earl of Kent.
5. Eleanor Holand, married (1st) Roger Mortimer, Knt., 4th Earl of
March, 6th Earl of Ulster.
6. Anne Mortimer, married Richard of York, Knt., Earl of Cambridge.
7. Richard Plantagenet, Knt., K.G., 3rd Duke of York, 6th Earl of
March, 8th Earl of Ulster, married Cecily Neville.
8. King Edward IV of England, died 1483.

1. Isabel de Beauchamp, died 1306, married (1st) Patrick de Chaworth,
Knt.
2. Maud de Chaworth, born 1282, living 1320, married Henry of
Lancaster, Knt., Earl of Lancaster and Leicester.
3. Maud of Lancaster, married William de Burgh, Knt., 4th Earl of
Ulster.
4. Elizabeth de Burgh, married Lionel of Antwerp, K.G., Duke of
Clarence.
5. Philippe of Clarence, married Edmund de Mortimer, Knt., 3rd Earl of
March.
6. Roger Mortimer, Knt., 4th Earl of March, 6th Earl of Ulster, married
Eleanor Holand.
7. Anne Mortimer, married Richard of York, Knt., Earl of Cambridge.
8. Richard Plantagenet, Knt., K.G., 3rd Duke of York, 6th Earl of
March, 8th Earl of Ulster, married Cecily Neville.
9. King Edward IV of England, died 1483.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

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Dec 29, 2006, 2:43:44 PM12/29/06
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Elizabeth le Despenser and her
husband, Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys:

Samuel Argall, Charles Barham, Joseph Bickley, William Bladen, Charles
& Leonard Calvert, St. Leger Codd, Henry Filmer, Henry Fleete, Warham
Horsmanden, Anne Lovelace, Katherine Saint Leger, Rose Stoughton,
Samuel & William Torrey.

Merilyn Pedrick

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Dec 29, 2006, 6:37:43 PM12/29/06
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Dear Douglas
Thankyou for that interesting conjecture about the wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys.
Once again, poor ol' James Cudworth has missed your list of colonial
descendants.
As far as my database goes, he is the 9th great grandson of this Sir Ralph,
as follows:
1. Sir Ralph de Camoys, m. 1319
2. Sir John de Camoys
3. Sir Thomas de Camoys, b. 1351
4. Richard de Camoys, d. 1421
5. Eleanor de Camoys, b. 1410
6. Elizabeth Lewknor, m. 1456
7. John Wrothe, b. 1457
8. Robert Wrothe
9. Dorothy Wrothe, b. 1528
10. Mary Lewknor, m 1568
11. Mary Machell, b. 1574
12. James Cudworth, b. 1604
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick




-------Original Message-------

From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 12/30/06 06:15:53
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lord Camoys

Dear Newsgroup ~

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Elizabeth le Despenser and her
husband, Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys:

Samuel Argall, Charles Barham, Joseph Bickley, William Bladen, Charles
& Leonard Calvert, St. Leger Codd, Henry Filmer, Henry Fleete, Warham
Horsmanden, Anne Lovelace, Katherine Saint Leger, Rose Stoughton,
Samuel & William Torrey.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leo van de Pas

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Dec 29, 2006, 7:50:11 PM12/29/06
to Merilyn Pedrick, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Dear Merilyn,

I had te line you show in my system-----except I had nr.9 Dorothy Wrothe not
connected to her parents.

If nr.8 Robert Wrothe is your ancestor then you are a very distant cousin of
Brice Clagett, John Steele Gordon, the second wife of Irving Berlin and Vice
Admiral Herbert D. Riley.

Have you ever seen "Living Descendants of Blood Royal" by Count
d'Angerville, volume III? There are portraits of the Vice-Admiral and his
daughter. This book tells that the Vice-Admiral is a descendant of
Charlemagne and Edward III. I am sure you are aware of this line, but there
are two aspects I wonder about..

Eleanor Camoys born 1408 (you have 1410) her daughter is shown as Elizabeth
Lewknor Peckham. Where would the Peckham part come from? Her father is
clearly marked in this book as Sir Roger Lewknor.

According to this book the Admiral is in the 22nd generation in line of
descent of Edward III and in the 31st generation from Charlemagne------I
haven't counted But the link to Edward III stands and falls on Sir Richard
Camoys (who died before his father). In this book this Sir Richard is shown
as a son by his father's second wife (Elizabeth Mortimer, giving the line
to Edward III) but I understand he is by the first wife which takes away the
line to Edward III but there is still a line for the Vice-Admiral to
Charlemagne.

For James Cudworth I have no descendants in my system, but I have some 3,129
ancestors.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedr...@ozemail.com.au>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lord Camoys

> Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
> Camoys, Lord Camoys
>
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
> World colonists who descend from Elizabeth le Despenser and her
> husband, Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys:
>
> Samuel Argall, Charles Barham, Joseph Bickley, William Bladen, Charles
> & Leonard Calvert, St. Leger Codd, Henry Filmer, Henry Fleete, Warham
> Horsmanden, Anne Lovelace, Katherine Saint Leger, Rose Stoughton,
> Samuel & William Torrey.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
>

Merilyn Pedrick

unread,
Dec 29, 2006, 10:18:32 PM12/29/06
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Dear Leo
As you can see, I have drawn very heavily on Genealogics for the information
I have in my database, for which many thanks. James Cummings has drawn our
attention to Dorothy's father as being Robert Wrothe, quoting from Walter G.
Davis's book.
As for Elizabeth Lewknor Peckham, I don't have the Peckham. Where does that
come from? A clue might be a quote in Jim Weber's entry for Thomas Lewknor,
where he says... " Bayley goes on to say that Thomas Lewknor's third wife
was Catherine Pelham, but on my copy he has realised his mistake and crossed
it out. In his handwriting he has added "this relates to his grandson" and
his third wife was Elizabeth Echingham" . Pelham might have looked like
Peckham?
How many James Cudworth descendants would you like? I have hundreds
probably, which you are very welcome to!
Merilyn




-------Original Message-------

Douglas Richardson

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Dec 30, 2006, 12:41:23 PM12/30/06
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

As a followup to my original post on Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of
Sir Ralph de Camoys, I have several additional items to report
regarding their daughter, Isabel de Camoys, Abbess of Romsey.

As I stated in earlier post, Sir Ralph de Camoys and his wife,
Elizabeth le Despenser, had five children, including a daughter, Isabel
de Camoys, who was living in 1323-1324 [Reference: L.F. Salzman, An
Abstract of Feet of Fines relating to the Sussex (Sussex Record Society
23) (1916): 52].

There is a somewhat garbled pedigree of the Camoys family found in
James Dallaway, A History of the Western Division of the County of
Sussex, 2(2) (1832): 217. According to the pedigree, Ralph de Camoys,
Constable of Windsor Castle [i.e., Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys],
married "Joan, daughter of Hugh Le Despenser, Earl of Winton," by whom
he had a son, Ralph. and two daughters, _____ [Abbess of Romsey] and
Elizabeth (wife of Edm. Courtenay, of the co. of Devon). In truth,
Ralph's wife was named Elizabeth le Despenser, not Joan le Despenser,
and they had five children, Hugh, Knt., John, Knt., and Ralph, and two
daughters, Margaret and Isabel. The alleged daughter Elizabeth who
married the Courtenay was actually their son, John's daughter, Maud
Camoys, who married Edward Courtenay, Knt., 11th Earl of Devon.

There is an interesting account of Isabel de Camoys, Abbess of Romsey,
in the book, Records of Romsey Abbey: An Account of the Benedictine
House of Nuns, with Notes on the Parish, by Henry G.D. Liveing,
published in 1906, pp. 163-166. Mr. Liveing states that Isabel de
Camoys was appointed Abbess of Romsey "on the 25th November, 1352, with
the usual formalities." She was a legatee in the 1366 will of Bishop
Edyndon, who bequeathed her a ring set with one ruby, together with
£20 in money. "Isabella de Camoys continued Abbess for forty-four
years (1352-1396), a length of time exceded by no other abbess, with
the exception of Maud Lovel." She died in 1396.

Regarding Isabel de Camoys' parentage, Liveing says the following:
"Abbess Isabella was a member of a Sussex family of importance, her
father being Ralph de Camoys, Governor of Windsor, and her mother Joan
daughter of Hugh le Despenser, Earl of Winchester. The family of de
Camoys owned manors at Trotton and Broadwater."

I've included four items below pertaining to Abbess Isabel de Camoys
taken from the helpful online National Archves catalogue.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives Catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)

Item #1:

E 326/5810

Exchequer: Augmentation Office: Ancient Deeds, Series B

Scope and content

John de Edyndon, the elder & Isabel Camoys, abbess, and the convent of
Romsey (Romeseye); Place or Subject: Edington (Edyndon). County:
[Wilts]

Covering dates 32 Edward III [1358-1359]

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Item #2:

E 326/3750

Exchequer: Augmentation Office: Ancient Deeds, Series B

Scope and content

Grant by John de Edyndon, the elder, to Isabella de Camoys, the abbess,
and the convent of Romeseye, of a yearly pension of 12d. issuing out of
all his lands in Edyndon which he had of the gift of John de Testwode:
[Wilts.]

Covering dates 15 February, 32 Edward III [1358].

+ + + + + + + + + + +
Item #3:

E 326/3751

Exchequer: Augmentation Office: Ancient Deeds, Series B

Scope and content

Grant by John de Edyndon, the elder, to Isabella Camoys, the abbess,
and the convent of Romeseye, of land in Edyndon, lately held of the
abbess and convent as of their manor of Edyndon, which is parcel of the
abbey temporalities, by an exchange between the abbey on the one part,
and John de Aylesbury, rector of the chantry in the prebendal church of
Edyndon and his brethre, founded anew by William ed Edyndon, bishop of
Winchester, with the King's licence, on the other, for certain plots of
land: [Wilts.]

Covering dates Monday after St. Mary Magdalene, 32 Edward III [1358].

+ + + + + + + + +
Item #4:

E 326/3747

Exchequer: Augmentation Office: Ancient Deeds, Series B

Scope and content

Grant by Isabella to Camoys, the abbess, and the convent of Romsey, to
John de Edyndon, the elder, of two messuages and land in Edyndon and
Tynhide, with remainders in succession to John de Edyndon, the younger,
Richard de Lavynton and Edith his wife, Thomas Devenysshe and Matilda
his wife, and John . . . and Goda his wife: [Wilts.]

Covering dates Sunday before St. Barnabas the Apostle, 30 Edward III
[1356].

mhol...@mac.com

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Dec 30, 2006, 3:29:06 PM12/30/06
to
As a followup, where would you place Ela Camoys who married Sir Piers
de Goushill in the Camoys family?

On Dec 30, 12:41 pm, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com>
wrote:

Douglas Richardson

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Dec 31, 2006, 3:57:29 PM12/31/06
to
Dear Martin ~

Ela de Camoys, wife of Sir Peter de Goushill, was the paternal aunt of
Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, who died in 1336.

Ela de Camoys' granddaughter and heiress, Margaret de Goushill, was the
wife of Sir Philip le Despenser, younger son of Sir Hugh le Despenser,
Earl of Winchester.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

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Dec 31, 2006, 4:03:18 PM12/31/06
to
Dear Martin ~

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th
Century New World colonists who descend from Ela de Camoys, wife of Sir
Peter de Goushill:

William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, George &
Robert Brent, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Edward Carleton,
William Clopton, Humphrey Davie, Katherine Hamby, Elizabeth & John
Harleston, Henry Isham, Edmund Jennings, Edmund, Edward, Richard &
Matthew Kempe, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Thomas Owsley, Philip
& Thomas Nelson, Robert Peyton, William Rodney, Richard Saltonstall,
William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, Jemima Waldegrave, Olive Welby,
Thomas Wingfield.

Douglas Richardson

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Dec 31, 2006, 4:44:06 PM12/31/06
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

While we're discussing the family of Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of
Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, I thought I might as well point out
yet another addition to the Despenser account in the authoritative
Complete Peerage.

According to Complete Peerage, 4 (1916): 265 (sub Despenser), Sir Hugh
le Despenser, Earl of Winchester (executed 1326) married ...

"in or before 1286, without the King's license (fine of 2,000 marks,
afterwards remitted), Isabel, widow of Sir Patric de Chaurces or
Craworces, of Kidwelly, co. Carmarthen, Somborne, Hants, etc. (who died
shortly before 7 July 1283), and daughter of William (de Beauchamp),
Earl of Warwick, by Maud, ... 1st dau. of Sir John Fitz Geoffrey, of
Shere and Fambridge. She died shortly before 30 May 1306." END OF
QUOTE.

As indicated by Complete Peerage, Sir Hugh le Despenser and Isabel de
Beauchamp were married sometime beteween 7 July 1283 and 1286 (month
and day not given). This range in the date of marriage can be narrowed
considerably. According to the published Highworth Hundred Rolls,
Isabel de Beauchamp was called Lady Isabel de Chaworth (or Isabel widow
of Sir Patrick de Chaworth) on various dates after her first husband's
death, namely 8 December 1283, 10 August 1285, and 10 September 1285
[Reference: Brenda Farr, The Rolls of Highworth Hundred 1275-1287, 2
(Wiltshire Arch. & Natural Hist. Soc. Recs. Branch 22) (1968):
251-252, 294-297]. Thus, it would appear that Sir Hugh le
Despenser and Isabel de Beauchamp were not married until sometime after
10 September 1285.

Complete Peerage says nothing Isabel de Beauchamp's character.
However, I found a curious item in the Calendar of Inquisitions
Miscellaneous which tells an interesting tale. This report was made in
1327 by William Fitz Matthew, former keeper of Odiham park, who claimed
he was removed as keeper by Hugh le Despenser the younger because he
"levied hue and cry" upon Isabel the said Hugh's mother who was
taking 5 bucks in the park without warrant [Reference: Cal. Inqs. Misc.
2 (1916): 245].

As far as Sir Hugh le Despenser the elder is concerned, his notorious
reputation is well known to all students of history. Still, I was
surprised to find that as early as 1298, Maud le Barber of Garscherch
testified in London court that Saer le Barber said that Sir Hugh le
Despenser "unworthy of praise" ... "and also that he kept more
robbers with him than any man in England." [Reference: Thomas, Cal.
of Early Mayor's Court Rolls 1298-1307 (1924): 23].

For a full account of Maud le Barber's testimony, see the following
weblink:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=31968&strquery=le%20Barber

Douglas Richardson

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Jan 1, 2007, 1:46:27 PM1/1/07
to
Dear Will ~

Sir John de Camoys, of Norfolk, living 1362, was the son of Sir Ralph
de Camoys, Lord Camoys, by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Despenser.

Sir Ralph de Camoys and Elizabeth le Despenser were married before
Easter term 1316, which is the date the manor of Camoys in Great
Stukeley, Huntingdonshire was settled on them [Reference: VCH
Huntingdon 2 (1932): 230-234, citing Feet of F. East. 9 Edw. II.].
Easter term in 1316 fell between 26 April and 20 May 1316. Thus, Ralph
and Elizabeth were married sometime before 20 May 1316. This revises
Complete Peerage which states that Sir Ralph and Elizabeth were married
"before 1319" [Reference: Complete Peerage, 2 (1912): 507 (sub
Camoys)].

Their son, John de Camoys, was born about 1320, he being aged 40 in
1360 [Reference: Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, 10 (1921): 502].

In 1325-1326 Ralph de Camoys and his wife, Elizabeth, settled a


messuage and lands in Woolavington, Sussex on themselves for life, with

reversion to "their son," John [Reference: Salzman An Abstract of Feet
of Fines relating to Sussex (Sussex Rec. Soc. 23) (1916): 59].

Thus, I believe the evidence is conclusive that John de Camoys was the
son of Sir Ralph de Camoys' 2nd marriage.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

WJho...@aol.com wrote:
< In a message dated 12/29/06 3:38:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,


< pedr...@ozemail.com.au writes:
<
< << 1. Sir Ralph de Camoys, m. 1319
< 2. Sir John de Camoys >>
<
<

< And by this marriage date, which must apply to Ralph's second wife
you are
< implying that John Baron Camoys of Bekerton was a son of Elizabeth le
Despencer.
< This is not certain in my mind. I see no problem in making him a
son by the
< prior wife Margaret de Braose.
<
< Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Jan 1, 2007, 7:28:26 PM1/1/07
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 2 (1912): 507 (sub Camoys) indicates that Elizabeth,
2nd wife of Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, survived his death in
1336. She was allegedly living as late as 1370. The source it cites
for this information is "Privy Seal, 29157," which record I assume is
an original document on file with the Public Record Office.

In a post earlier this week, I showed that Ralph de Camoys, Elizabeth
his wife, and Hugh le Despenser were pardoned by the king for acquiring
to them and the heirs of Ralph the bailiwick of the forestership of
Alice Holt and Woolmer [Hampshire] from Richard de Venuz without
license [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1317-1321 (1903): 325].
This document can be viewed online at the following weblink:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e2v3/body/Edward2vol3page0325.pdf

That Ralph de Camoys held the position of "Keeper of the Forest of
Woolmer" after the 1319 pardon is proven by the following document
written by a certain William de Cleydon, lieutenant of Sir Hugh le
Despenser, Earl of Winchester, dated 30 October 1325:

"Mandate from William de Cleydon', locum tenes for Lord Hugh le
Despens', Earl of Winchester, Justice of the Forest South of Trent, to
Ralph de Camoys, Keeper of the Forest of Woolmer (Wolvemere), or his
deputy. Since he [William] had inspected the charters of the
progenitors of the kings of England, by which the prior and canons of
Southwick were granted perpetual exemption from forest law and all
things pertaining thereto in their manors of Colmore and Dean, and,
nevertheless, Ralph and his subordinates compel the prior and canons
and their men to have their dogs there expeditated, exacting from them
a heavy fine and causing no slight injury and grievance to them and
their men, he orders Ralph to desist, and makes his subordinates
desist, from troubling them in this way, and to leave them in peace in
the aforesaid manor. If Ralph has taken surety from them on that
account, he is to release it to them without delay. Given under his
official seal. Southwick, 30 October, 19 Edward II. END OF QUOTE.
[Reference: Katharine A. Hanna, ed., The Cartularies of Southwick
Priory, 1 (Hampshire Record Series, 9) (1988): 209].

The next occurence that I've found of the Camoys family's involvement
with the forestership bailiwick is in 1399, when King Henry IV granted
the bailiwick of the forestership of Alice Holt and Wolmer in Hampshire
to Thomas Camoys, "as Ralph de Camoys his grandfather had in the time
of Edward III." [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1399-1401
(1903): 173].

This document may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h4v1/body/Henry4vol1page0046.pdf

This grant is important for two reasons. First, since Elizabeth, wife
of Sir Ralph de Camoys, is not named in the 1399 grant, it may be
safely presumed that she was dead before the date of its granting, 3
November 1399. Second, since Thomas Camoys living in 1399 is
specifically called the grandson of Sir Ralph de Camoys who earlier
held the bailwick, it confirms that Thomas Camoys' known father, Sir
John de Camoys, was the son of the earlier Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord
Camoys, who died in 1336. Thus, the chain of evidence confirms and
establishes Complete Peerage's arrangement of the Camoys family
pedigree.

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 12:02:22 AM1/2/07
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

In the search for additional evidence that Elizabeth, 2nd wife of Sir
Ralph de Camoys, was a daughter of Sir Hugh le Despenser, Earl of
Winchester, I've encountered several interesting items.

First, there is an interesting article by Fane Lambarde, F.S.A.,
regarding an ancient Lewknor family tapestry called the "Lewknor
Carpet" in Sussex Archaeological Collections, 70 (1929): 1-7.
According to the article, the tapestry dates from about the 1560's, as
indicated by a quote from a letter written in 1662 by Sir John Lewknor,
of West Dean:

"Remember to keep safe ye Carpet of Armes, now aged about 100 yeares
wch in ye failure the elder house totally consuming itselfe by
daughters and heires and passing into other names, was sent hither by
Constance Glemham of Trotton, who was one of those heires, for record
to the younger house and whole name." END OF QUOTE.

The tapestry features the coats of arms which involve the important
ancestral marriages of the Lewknor family. Among the coats of arms
depicted are the arms of Camoys impaling Despenser. The author, Mr.
Lambarde, writes:

"This records the marriage of Ralph, Lord Camoys, to the daughter of
Hugh De Spencer, Earl of Winchester. This is according to the Pedigree
recorded in the Visitations of Sussex, 1634, Harl. Soc., LIII, 29.
This descent is not confirmed in the Complete Peerage, II, 507." END
OF QUOTE.

It is important to note that the Lewknor family firmly believed that
their ancestry included a match between a male member of the Camoys
family and a female Despenser, which marriage was memorialized in the
Lewknor Carpet of Arms. The Lewknor family who created the tapestry
were the lineal heirs of Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys (died 1336),
and his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Despenser.

As for Sir Ralph de Camoys himself, various items have surfaced which
show that he was closely connected throughout his life with the
Despenser family. The first record I have found of him is dated 1299,
when he, Sir Hugh le Despenser, and Robert de Keynes, Knt., witnessed a
release to John de Haudlo, of Boarstall, Buckinghamshire. The
following weblink displays a snippet view of that document:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC01695310&id=9DQSAAAAIAAJ&q=Bailiwick+forestership+Camoys&dq=Bailiwick+forestership+Camoys&pgis=1

Like Ralph de Camoys, John de Haudlo was a life long follower of the
Despenser family. John de Haudlo was almost certainly near kin to Sir
Hugh le Despenser, as I find that a William de Haudlo, clerk, who
served as a trustee for John de Haudlo, was styled "kinsman" of
Hugh le Despenser [Reference: Cal. Entries Papal Regs.: Letters 2
(1895): 4]. I have elsewhere found a record in which Robert, son of
Sir Robert de Keynes, styled himself kinsman of Sir Hugh le Despenser
the elder [Reference: Ancient Deeds-Series A 1 (List & Index Soc.
151) (1978): 166]. In the case of the Keynes family, I suspect the
connection to the Despensers came through Hawise, wife of Sir Robert de
Keynes.

John de Haudlo is important for another reason, in that his second
wife, Maud Burnell, was the sister and heiress of Edward Burnell, Knt.,
Lord Burnell (died 1315), whose wife, Aline le Despenser, was yet
another of the daughters of Sir Hugh le Despenser, Earl of Winchester.
Sir Ralph de Camoys witnessed a release to Sir John de Haudlo and his
2nd wife, Maud Burnell, in 1320 [Reference: Calendar of Close Rolls,
1318-1323 (1895): 221].

Next, I find that in 1305 Hugh le Despenser was granted letters of
protection by the king, he going beyond seas in the king's service.
Included in his entourage were Ralph de Camoys and John de Haudlo
[Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1301-1307 (1898): 382. See the
following weblink for a copy of this item:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e1v4/body/Edward1vol4page0382.pdf

Similarly, I find that in 1313 Sir Hugh le Despenser the elder was
granted letters of protection by the king, he going beyond seas in the
king's service. Included in his entourage again were Ralph de Camoys
and John de Haudlo [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1307-1313
(1894): 582. See the following weblink for a copy of this item:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=0N5rOsJecI-EABE0y9&id=gQsKAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA5-PA582&lpg=RA5-PA582&dq=camoys+despenser

Next, in 1318, I find that Sir Ralph de Camoys was granted free warren
in his various lands in Northamptonshire, Hampshire, and
Huntingdonshire [Reference: Calendar of Charter Rolls, 3 (1914): 397].
The grant was made by the king "on the information of Hugh le Despenser
the younger," who was Ralph de Camoys' brother-in-law. For a
discussion of this grant and Hugh le Despenser's influence at court,
see James Conway Davies, Baronial Opposition of Edward II: Its
Character and Policy (1918): 93-94.

Finally, there appears to be a discussion of the Camoys Pedigree in
Notes and Queries, 6th Ser., volume 1, 1880, pp. 234-235, 298, 341; and
7th Ser., volume 10 (No. 183) (1907), pp. 509-510. There is only a
snippet view of the first of these articles online, but it appears to
discuss various children of Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys (died
1336) and his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Despenser, which Elizabeth is
specifically named. There is also an article in print which mentions
Sir John de Camoys, father-in-law of Edward Courtenay, Earl of Devon,
in the article, "Aspects of Cultural Diffusion in Medieval England," by
P.R. Coss, which appeared in Past & Present, Vol. 108, No. 1, pp.
35-79. If anyone has access to these articles, I'd appreciate it if
they would post particulars here on the newsgroup.

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 12:48:24 AM1/2/07
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
In a message dated 1/1/2007 9:18:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:

> Next, in 1318, I find that Sir Ralph de Camoys was granted free warren
> in his various lands in Northamptonshire, Hampshire, and
> Huntingdonshire [Reference: Calendar of Charter Rolls, 3 (1914): 397].
> The grant was made by the king "on the information of Hugh le Despenser
> the younger," who was Ralph de Camoys' brother-in-law.

This remark "who was Ralph de Camoys' brother-in-law is most likely your
Douglas, right? It's not in the original underlying grant. Identifying which Hugh
was Elizabeth le Despencer's father is part of the problem. If her father
was Hugh the younger than she is put into an extremely narrow birth range,
perhaps too narrow.
Will Johnson

Merilyn Pedrick

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 12:50:11 AM1/2/07
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, Douglas Richardson
Wow Douglas - you have been busy! That's an amazing amount of information
and it certainly seems fairly conclusive that Elizabeth le Despenser has to
be the wife of Ralph de Camoys.
But it still doesn't change my point of several days ago when this thread
started, that James Cudworth is the 9th great grandson of Ralph and
Elizabeth.
Best wishes
Merilyn



-------Original Message-------

From: Douglas Richardson
com/books?vid=OCLC01695310&id=9DQSAAAAIAAJ&q=Bailiwick+forestership+Camoys&dq
Bailiwick+forestership+Camoys&pgis=1
com/books?vid=0N5rOsJecI-EABE0y9&id=gQsKAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA5-PA582&lpg=RA5-PA582&d
=camoys+despenser

Next, in 1318, I find that Sir Ralph de Camoys was granted free warren
in his various lands in Northamptonshire, Hampshire, and
Huntingdonshire [Reference: Calendar of Charter Rolls, 3 (1914): 397].
The grant was made by the king "on the information of Hugh le Despenser
the younger," who was Ralph de Camoys' brother-in-law. For a
discussion of this grant and Hugh le Despenser's influence at court,
see James Conway Davies, Baronial Opposition of Edward II: Its
Character and Policy (1918): 93-94.

Finally, there appears to be a discussion of the Camoys Pedigree in
Notes and Queries, 6th Ser., volume 1, 1880, pp. 234-235, 298, 341; and
7th Ser., volume 10 (No. 183) (1907), pp. 509-510. There is only a
snippet view of the first of these articles online, but it appears to
discuss various children of Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys (died
1336) and his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Despenser, which Elizabeth is
specifically named. There is also an article in print which mentions
Sir John de Camoys, father-in-law of Edward Courtenay, Earl of Devon,
in the article, "Aspects of Cultural Diffusion in Medieval England," by
P.R. Coss, which appeared in Past & Present, Vol. 108, No. 1, pp.
35-79. If anyone has access to these articles, I'd appreciate it if
they would post particulars here on the newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


Douglas Richardson

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 1:20:55 AM1/2/07
to
Dear Will ~

It's not a narrow shoe at all. In fact, the shoe fits very well
indeed!

Elizabeth le Despenser's parents, Hugh le Despenser (usually styled
Hugh the elder), Earl of Winchester, and his wife, Isabel de Beauchamp,
were married between between 10 Sept. 1285 (record of Highworth Hundred
Rolls) and 1286. They had two sons, Hugh, Knt. [2nd Lord Despenser],
and Philip, Knt., and four daughters, Aline, Isabel, Margaret, and
Elizabeth.

The various children of Earl Hugh and his wife, Isabel, listed above
were married in 1306, before 1312, after 1302, before 1307, before 1315
(contract dated 1313), and before 1316 respectively. These marriage
dates are very consistent for children of a couple married c. 1286.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


WJho...@aol.com wrote:

< Marilyn, I hope you take the various dates with a grain of salt.
Until we
< actually have some documentation on who Elizabeth's father was, we
can all
< speculate.
<
< The problem with making Hugh the younger her father is in giving her
enough
< time to have a slew of kids before her husband died and also allowing
one of
< those William to be elder then John who we know was born probably by
1320.
<
< It's a very narrow shoe to fit into.
< Will Johnson

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 11:16:04 AM1/2/07
to royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com

In a message dated 1/1/2007 11:10:13 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:

The various children of Earl Hugh and his wife, Isabel, listed above
were married in 1306, before 1312, after 1302, before 1307, before 1315
(contract dated 1313), and before 1316 respectively. These marriage
dates are very consistent for children of a couple married c. 1286.


You have to read my original message to understand.
Elizabeth married again after her first husband died and had several more
children.

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 3:47:27 PM1/2/07
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
In a message dated 1/1/07 9:18:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:

<< The Lewknor family who created the tapestry
were the lineal heirs of Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys (died 1336),
and his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Despenser. >>

I can provide the line so far, but then my sources go silent.
If anyone can complete this line all the way to Sir John Lewknor of West Dean
(living 1662) that would be appreciated.

Roger Lewknor of West Dean b abt 1447
wife Mary West da. of Reynold West, Baron de la Warre (from 1427) by his wife
Elizabeth Greyndour

son of
Sir Roger Lewknor of Broadhurst b 1419/20 "aged 30 in 1450, 50 in 1471"
wife Eleanor Camoys

dau of
Sir Richard Camoys d.v.p. 1416
wife Joan (Jean) Poynings

Son of
Thomas, 1st Baron Camoys (from 1372) d 28 Mar 1421
wife Elizabeth Louches "heiress of her father"

son of
John, Baron Camoys of Berkerton "second son, aged 40 at IPM taken 30 Sep 1360"
wife Margaret Foliot

son of
Sir Ralph de Camoys d 1336 "before 24 June"
wife Elizabeth le Despencer

This shows the linkage from Despencer to the "West Dean" Lewknors but doesn't
come all the way forward to this alleged Constance Glemhan nor to Sir John
Lewknor living 1662.

Will Johnson

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 4:30:05 PM1/2/07
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Because I (or some evil gnome) had combined Aunt and Niece into one person :)

A nice trick when you can figure it out.

Hugh Despencer, Earl of Winchester executed in 1326
had a daughter Elizabeth

and also his *son* Hugh Despencer, also Earl of Winchester and ALSO executed
in 1326, himself also had a daughter also named Elizabeth

The first Elizabeth married Ralph de Camoys and was said-to-be yet living in
1370

The second Elizabeth, her niece, married Maurice, 4th Lord Berkeley in Aug
1338 and she died 13 Jul 1389 and is buried at St Botolph's, London.

So now I have it straight.

Will Johnson

CE Wood

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 5:22:53 PM1/2/07
to
"son of
John, Baron Camoys of Berkerton "second son, aged 40 at IPM taken 30
Sep 1360"
wife Margaret Foliot"

I thought that it was doubtful that Margaret was the mother of Thomas.


Jim Weber
(http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I17499),
notes:

"(j) Sir John had m. Margaret, sister and coheir of Richard Foliot, 3rd
Lord Foliot, but it is very doubtful whether she was the mother of
Thomas, as the whole of the Foliot inheritance seems to have passed to
her sister Margery, who m. Sir Hugh Hastings. [CP XIV:138 states that
Margaret dsp.]"

CE Wood

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 8:04:19 PM1/2/07
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
In a message dated 1/2/07 2:26:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, woo...@msn.com
writes:

<< "son of
John, Baron Camoys of Berkerton "second son, aged 40 at IPM taken 30
Sep 1360"
wife Margaret Foliot"

I thought that it was doubtful that Margaret was the mother of Thomas. >>

I don't have a second wife for John Baron Camoys of Bekerton.
What do you have?

Right now I'm showing that Margaret Foliot and John were married bef 8 Nov
1330 and that she was still alive in 1346 but dead by 1360

While he was still alive in 1360 but dead by 1371
Those are my boundaries.

Now into those boundaries, I show three children
1) Thomas the eldest son
2) John (later of Linford) the not eldest son
3) Maud de Camoys who m bef 31 May 1383 Edward Courtenay, 3rd Earl of Devon


We know that Thomas the eldest was born by 1353 since he was granted a
license for a market in 1374, and *possibly* succeeded his father by 1372.

So he could be the son of Margaret Foliot from all of that.

Will Johnson

mhol...@mac.com

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 8:18:03 PM1/2/07
to
Right from a strict chronological viewpoint, but if you assimilate all
the information and that the Foliot property went to the Hastings, then
it seems that Thomas was the son of John and his wife Elizabeth (---).

On Jan 2, 8:04 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/2/07 2:26:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, wood...@msn.com

mhol...@mac.com

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 8:28:19 PM1/2/07
to
Starting with Roger Lewkenor who may/possibly married Mary West (apply
your famous chronology her and see what happens)

2. Edmund Lewkenor d. 11 March 1544 m. Jane Tyrrell
3. Richard Lewkenor, Chief Justice of Wales, living 1588/9 m. Margaret
(---)
4. Sir Richard Lewkenor, Chief Justice of Chester, d. 6 April 1616,
aged 76 m. Eleanor Broome
5. Richard Lewkenor, d. 9 March 1602, aged 34
6. Richard Lewkenor, Esquire, d. 27 May 1635, m. Mary Bennett
7. John Lewkenor, d. 3 December 1669, aged 43 m. mary Lee, wnd Ann
Denham.

See John Comber, Sussex Genealogies, Lewes Center, pp. 148-156.

I belived the Sussex Visitations of 1530 and 1633-4 gives the same line
except to get rid of generaiton #5 and go from 4 directly to 6.


On Jan 2, 3:47 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/1/07 9:18:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>

> royalances...@msn.com writes:<< The Lewknor family who created the tapestry

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 9:15:34 PM1/2/07
to mhol...@mac.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
In a message dated 1/2/07 5:20:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, mhol...@mac.com
writes:

<< Right from a strict chronological viewpoint, but if you assimilate all
the information and that the Foliot property went to the Hastings, then
it seems that Thomas was the son of John and his wife Elizabeth (---). >>

I don't have that the Foliot property went to the Hastings.
And how sure are we that all the Foliot property went to the Hastings?
Is there a list of what Richard had at his death ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Jan 2, 2007, 10:51:07 PM1/2/07
to
Tuesday, 2 January, 2007


Dear Will, Martin, CE, et al.,

A very happy New Year to you all!

Will, concerning the matter of possible Foliot ancestry of the
Lords Camoys you queried concerning the Foliot properties ca. 1325,
and whether these went (entirely or otherwise) to the Hastings
family.

CP V:541-2, sub Foliot, indicates that Margery Foliot (wife of
Hugh de Hastings) had purparty of 1/2 of the estate of Richard
Foliot, her brother, consisting of Elsing and Weasenham, Norfolk;
Norton and Fenwick, co. Yorks; and Grimston, co. Notts., with four
advowsons [Elsing, Norton, Smitheton and 'Brusellee']. Margaret
Foliot, wife of John de Camoys, had purparty of 1/2 of the estate,
included Gressenhall, Norfolk and its advowson, Lexham (or East
Lexham), Norfolk, and certain other lands and fragments [not in my
notes].

I understand there was a release by John de Camoys and his wife
Margaret Foliot of many of their lands to Margery Foliot and her
husband Hugh de Hastings, but that does not prove Margaret had no
issue. John de Camoys evidently continued to control the advowson
of Gressenhall, presenting to the living as late as 1348. We know
that Gressenhall in fact passed to the Hastings of Elsing, incl. the
advowson: there is no evidence of any Foliot lands being inherited
in the Camoys family, and we would certainly expect some trace (or
evidence of sale) to prove such a descent.

~ Even the advowson of Gressenhall was held by John de Hastings
(eldest son of Margery Foliot) at his death:

' Inquisition taken at Est derham 21 June 3 Hen IV 1402 before
Kings eschaetors for Norfolk relating to descent of manors of
Gressenhale and Estlexham and advowson of churches belonging
and other estates to John Hastyng dec'd. 17 Ric II 1393 and
value of estate.' - A2A, Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family
of Gressenhall [ MR 81 241 x 3 ]


Hope this is helpful in resolving the issue.

Cheers,

John

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Jan 3, 2007, 11:07:12 AM1/3/07
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Actually there is evidence that Margaret Foliot, wife of Sir John de
Camoys, died without surviving issue. According to an inquisition
taken 30 September 1360, Sir John de Camoys, then aged 40, was holding
the manor of Grimston, Norfolk jointly with Hugh de Hastings, aged 25,
as co-heirs of Richard Foliot. Sir John de Camoys was holding his
share "for life by the law of England after the death of Margaret, late
his wife." [Reference: Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, 10
(1921): 502].

In other words, Sir John de Camoys was holding his share of Grimston by
curtesy of England, which means that he and his late wife had had issue
but that none were living in 1360. At Sir John de Camoys' death, all
of his wife Margaret's properties passed to her sister, Margery
(Foliot) Hastings' son and heir, Hugh de Hastings.

As for evidence that Sir John de Camoys remarried and had further issue
by another wife, it is known that Sir John's son and heir, Sir Thomas
Camoys, was near related to Sir William le Latimer, 4th Lord Latimer.
The kinship between the two must have been quite close. In 1375, the
king granted Lord Latimer various tenements and houses in Calais by the
king formerly held by John Dayre, with remainder in male tail to Thomas
Camoys. Likewise, Lord Latimer bequeathed his "cousin" Thomas Camoys
the manor of Wotton, Surrey in his 1381 will. Dugdale also states that
Sir Thomas Camoys did military service during the early years of King
Richard II under Lord Latimer.

These arrangements create the impression that Lord Latimer treated
Thomas Camoys as a near male kinsman, Lord Latimer having only one
living daughter and heiress. If the term "cousin" can be extended to
mean nephew, then Sir Thomas Camoys' mother may well have been a sister
of Lord Latimer. If so, this would make Sir Thomas Camoys' mother the
daughter of William le Latimer, 3rd Lord Latimer (born c.1301, died
1335), and his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of John Botetourt, Knt., 1st
Lord Botetourt. Certainly the chronology is acceptable for Sir Thomas
Camoys to be the grandson of this couple. If correct, this would mean
that Sir Thomas Camoys was named for his uncle, Thomas le Latimer, who
in turn was named for his uncle, Sir Thomas Botetourt (died 1322), of
Upton, Norfolk and Great Bradley, Suffolk.

This matter deserves further study.

Douglas Richardson

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Jan 3, 2007, 12:07:52 PM1/3/07
to
WJho...@aol.com wrote:

< I don't have a second wife for John Baron Camoys of Bekerton.
< What do you have?
<

< Will Johnson

Dear Will ~

Sir John de Camoys, living 1362, may have held Bekerton, Norfolk (a
Camoys family property), but he was never known as John Baron Camoys.

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Jan 3, 2007, 12:57:23 PM1/3/07
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

This is Part I of a two-part post.

The item "Camoys Pedigree" published in 1880 in Notes and Queries, 6th
series, Volume 1, pg. 341 contains some helpful information regarding
Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, which
was submitted by a certain W.D. Macray and Hermentrude. This material
contains several errors. However, for the purpose of discussion, I'm
copying it below as it was published. The only adjustment I have made
is to set the tabular pedigree provided by W.D. Macray in another
format. The source "Rot. Pat." cited by Hermentrude is better known
today as the Patent Rolls.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: "Camoys Pedigree" in Notes and Queries, 6th series, Volume 1
(1880), pg. 341.

The author "W.D. Macray" writes:

"The following short descent, which I have put together from two
seventeenth century MSS. in the Bodleian (Rawlinson, B. 74 and 314),
may, I hope, be of some service to Hermentrude with regard to her
questions. There is mention also of one earlier Thomas Camoys, who is
said to have died 26 Edward II.: -

A. Thomas Camoys, Kt. = Margaret, da. of Peter Roscelin, Kt., sister
and co-h. of Thomas Roscelin, Kt.

They had issue:

B. Ralph [Camoys] = Da. of Hugh Le Despenser, Earl of Winchester.

They had issue:

1. Thomas Lord Camoys, of Broadward, or Broadwater, 1421, 10 Hen. V. =
Elizabeth, da. and h. of Will. Louches.

They had issue:
a. Alice [Camoys], wife of Leonard Hastings, mother of William,
Lord Hastings
b. Richard [Camoys].

2. Hugh [Camoys], second son.

3. Elizabeth [Camoys], wife of Edw. Courtenay, Earl of Devon [or sister
to Ralph and wife of Hugh Courtenay. Rawl., B. 74].

[Signed] W.D. Macray." END OF QUOTE.

The writer "Hermentrude" responds:

"I am greatly obliged to your correspondents who have kindly helped to
clear up my difficulties. Permit me to observe in comment that the
Lady Camoys who was a daughter of Hugh Le Despenser, Earl of
Winchester, was, according to Dugdale, named Elizabeth (not Joan),
which receives confirmation from a notice of "Ralph de Camoys and
Elizabeth his wife" on the Patent Roll for 15 Ed. II. We also find
that in 1370, under date of Feb. 12, "Elizabeth, widow of Ralph Camoys,
holds of Thomas Camoys" (Rot. Pat., 44 Ed. III, part 1), but it is in
question whether this was the same Elizabeth. If it was, she must have
been an extremely old woman in 1370.

I also venture to submit (apart from the vexed question of the identity
of Elizabeth and Isabel, on which point I am heterodox) that the Isabel
wife of Sir Thomas Camoys, who was buried in the Friars Minors' Church,
London, in 1444, cannot be identical with Elizabeth Mortimer, wife of
Thomas, Lord Camoys, whose Inq. was taken 5 Hen. V., and who is buried
at Trotton.

With respect to the second Thomas, Lord Camoys (whose Inq. is 1 Hen.
VI, 70), I am still a little puzzled. He was "grandson of Ralph" (Rot.
Pat., 1 Hen. IV, part 4); but of which Ralph, and by what channel? Was
he son of the first Thomas (Inq. 46 Ed. III, i, 15)?

Lastly, did Ralph and Hugh, brothers of the first Thomas, marry and
leave issue? Was the second Thomas the son of either of them?
[Signed] Hermentrude." END OF QUOTE.

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Jan 3, 2007, 7:44:03 PM1/3/07
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

This was originally intended to be Part II of a two-part post.
However, due to its length, I have chosen to split this message into
two separate posts. Hence, this is now Part II of a three part post.

In the Part I of this post, I presented a copy of an item entitled


"Camoys Pedigree" published in 1880 in Notes and Queries, 6th series,

Volume 1, pg. 341. In that item, W.D. Macray gave a short descent of
the Camoys family, which he put together from two seventeenth century
MSS. in the Bodleian (Rawlinson, B. 74 and 314). The descent, which is
quite similar to the one found published in the Visitations of Sussex,
gives a jumble of generations. Among other things, it includes
reference to a certain Ralph [de] Camoys, who married a daughter of Sir
Hugh le Despenser, Earl of Winchester. The only Ralph de Camoys who
would chronologically fit this description would be Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lord Camoys, died 1336, who was a life long follower of Earl
Hugh le Despenser, and whose second wife, Elizabeth, was evidently the
daughter of Earl Hugh. This couple is assigned three children in the
descent provided by Mr. Macray. The first child, Thomas Camoys, was
actually their grandson. The second child, Hugh, was one of their
children. The third child, Elizabeth, wife of Edward Courtenay, was
actually Maud Camoys, wife of Edward Courtenay, 11th Earl of Devon.
She was another of their grandchildren.

Hermentrude replied back to W.D. Macray asserting that the given name
of Sir Ralph de Camoys' Despenser wife was Elizabeth, who she said
occurs as his wife in the Patent Rolls in 15 Edward II. That is
correct. She then questioned if the Elizabeth, widow of Ralph Camoys,
living in 1370, was the same person as the Elizabeth, wife of Sir Ralph
de Camoys, which earlier Ralph died in 1336. According to Complete
Peerage, the Elizabeth Camoys living in 1370 was the widow of Sir Ralph
de Camoys (he died 1336).

On the second part, Hermentrude was quite right to question if the
later Elizabeth, widow of Ralph Camoys, living in 1370 was the same
person as the earlier Elizabeth de Camoys, wife of Sir Ralph de Camoys.
In point of fact, the evidence proves that the two Elizabeth's were
entirely separate and distinct people. As it turns out, the Elizabeth
Camoys, living in 1370, was actually the widow of a much younger Sir
Ralph Camoys, he being the son and heir apparent of Sir Thomas Camoys,
Lord Camoys (died 1372), who in turn was the son of the earlier Sir
Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys (died 1336), not by Elizabeth le
Despenser, but by his 1st wife, Margaret de Brewes.

Evidence that the Elizabeth Camoys living in 1370 was the widow of the
younger Sir Ralph Camoys is provided by the following two records, both
of which appear to have been was overlooked by Complete Peerage. The
first record shows that the manor of Flockthorpe (in Hardingham),
Norfolk was settled in 1365-1366 on Ralph Camoys (son of Thomas) and
his wife, Elizabeth. The second records shows that in 1370 Elizabeth,
then widow of Sir Ralph Camoys, was holding the manor of Flockthorpe,
Norfolk in 1370 of Sir Thomas Camoys [her father-in-law]. Of the
younger Sir Ralph Camoys, Complete Peerage says only that he
predeceased his father sometime in or before his father's death in 1372
[Reference: Complete Peerage, 2 (1907): 507 (sub Camoys)]. The second
record below shows that the younger Sir Ralph Camoys had died before 12
February 1370.

Item #1: PRO Document, C 143/356/22

Date: 39 EDWARD III [1365-1366].

William, son and heir of John de Holveston of Norwich to grant the
manor of Flockthorpe [in Hardingham], with the advowson of the church
of Hardingham, Norfolk, to Ralph son of Thomas de Camoys, knight, and
Elizabeth his wife, and the heirs of their bodies, with remainder to
the said Thomas and his heirs, retaining land in Hellesdon. Norfolk.
END OF QUOTE.

Item #2: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1367-1370 (1913): 386.

Date: 12 Feb. 1370.

Licence for Thomas Camoys, 'chivaler,' to grant the reversion of the
manor of Flokethorp and the advowson of the church of Hardyngham, co.
Norfolk, held in chief, expectant on the demise of Elizabeth, late the
wife of Ralph Camoys, 'chivaler,' to John de Arundel, 'chivaler,' in
tail, with remainder to Richard, brother of the said John." END OF
QUOTE.

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
It is still uncertain as to when Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of the
earlier Sir Ralph de Camoys, died. I find that she occurs in records
as Sir Ralph's wife from 1316 to 1326, when she passes from view.
Quite possibly she predeceased her husband. I find no assignment of
dower to her when Sir Ralph de Camoys died in 1336, and no mention of
her in records after 1336, in spite of the fact that Ralph settled at
least three manors and other property on her during their marriage.
Whatever the situation, she appears to have been dead before 6 November
1367, when her step-son, Sir Thomas Camoys, conveyed land and tenements
called Doscomb in the demesne of Priors Dean, Hampshire to Southwick
Priory [Reference: Katharine A. Hanna, ed., The Cartularies of
Southwick Priory, 2 (Hampshire Record Series 10) (1989): 349]. This
property was almost certainly connected to the bailiwick of the
forestership of Alice Holt and Wolmer in Hampshire, which office was
acquired back in 1319 by Elizabeth and her husband, Ralph de Camoys,
and Hugh le Despenser, with reversion to the heirs of Ralph. Had
Elizabeth outlived Hugh le Despenser and Ralph de Camoys, she would
have been the surviving tenant of the forestership bailiwick, but, on
her death, it would have passed to Ralph's son and heir, Sir Thomas
Camoys, who was Ralph's child by a previous marriage. Since Sir Thomas
Camoys was in possession in 1367, the inference is that his
step-mother, Elizabeth le Despenser, was dead before that date.

TO BE CONTINUED

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Jan 4, 2007, 11:42:40 AM1/4/07
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

To date, we've seen a variety of sources which refer to Sir Ralph de
Camoys' second wife, Elizabeth, as the daughter of Sir Hugh le
Despenser, Earl of Winchester. They include published visitations, the
Sussex historian Dallaway, the historian Liveing, an item in Notes &
Queries, and the Lewknor Carpet of Arms.

There is also an account of baronial Despenser family in the standard
reference work, Collins's Peerage of England, 6 (1812): 496-511. On
page 501, Collins lists the children of Earl Hugh le Despenser as
follows:

"His Lordship married Isabel, daughter of William de Beauchamp, Earl of
Warwick, and widow of Sir Patrick Chaworth, and by her had one son, Sir
Hugh, his heir, and five daughters, first, Ada, married to Sir Ralph
Camois, Knt.; second, Joane, to John de St. Amand; third Oliva, to
Edward Lord Burnel; fourth, Eleanor, a nun at Sempingham in
Lincolnshire; and fifth Isabel, first wedded to John Hastings, Lord
Bergavenny, and secondly, to Richard Mounthermer." END OF QUOTE

Sadly Collins doesn't supply us his sources for the Despenser children,
so we are left in the dark as to where he obtained this information.
Regardless, I note that Collins states that Earl Hugh le Despenser had
a daughter who married Sir Ralph de Camoys, which certainly concurs
with other sources.

Collins' list of children is essentially correct, although a few
changes are necessary. Earl Hugh le Despenser and his wife, Isabel de
Beauchamp, actually had two sons, Sir Hugh and Sir Philip, and four
daughters, Aline (wife of Edward Burnel, Lord Burnell), Isabel (wife
successively of Gilbert de Clare, John de Hastings, Knt., 1st Lord
Hastings, and Ralph de Monthermer, Knt., 1st Lord Monthermer), Margaret
(wife of John de Saint Amand, Knt.), and Elizabeth (wife of Ralph de
Camoys, Knt., Lord Camoys). The daughter Eleanor listed by Collins who
was a nun at Sempringham was actually a granddaughter of Earl Hugh.

As the available accounts of the Camoys family written in the past are
reviewed, it is clear that the pedigree of the Camoys family posed
variious problems for earlier historians and genealogists. Chief among
them was determining how Sir Thomas Camoys, Lord Camoys (died 1421) was
related to the earlier Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys (died 1335).
We know now that Sir Thomas Camoys was the son of Sir Ralph de Camoys'
third son, Sir John de Camoys, of Norfolk. However, as Hermentrude
indicated in her initial query in Notes and Queries back in 1880, it
wasn't always that clear. And, although the authoritative Complete
Peerage attempted to put the Camoys pedigree on a firm scholarly
foundation, even it managed to slip up in at least three places in its
account of the Camoys family. Even more curious, Complete Peerage made
no mention of the Camoys-Despenser marriage, yet standard sources long
in print such as Collins and Dallaway refer to it, albeit in slightly
garbled form.

As for other evidence of the Camoys-Despenser tie, I find that years
after Sir Ralph de Camoys and his father-in-law, Earl Hugh le
Despenser, were dead, Earl Hugh's great-grandson and heir, Sir Edward
le Despenser, lord of Glamorgan and Morgannwg, issued a charter in 1364
regarding his property at Upper Somborne, Hampshire [Reference: Lewis
C. Loyd and Doris Mary Stenton, eds., Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of
Seals (1950): 334]. The first person listed as a witness to Edward le
Despenser's charter was Edward's kinsman, Sir Hugh de Camoys, eldest
son of his great-aunt, Elizabeth (le Despenser) de Camoys. So once
again, we find the Despenser and Camoys together in a record. No
surprise there.

wils...@paradise.net

unread,
Jan 5, 2007, 4:05:45 PM1/5/07
to
On 29 Dec 2006 10:55:18 -0800, "Douglas Richardson"
<royala...@msn.com> wrote:


>1. Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, died 1336.
>2. Sir John de Camoys, of Norfolk, younger son, living 1362, married
>(2nd) ?Elizabeth ____ (doubtless a near kinswoman of William le
>Latimer, K.G., 4th Lord Latimer).
>3. Sir Thomas Camoys, Lord Camoys, died 1421, married (1st) Elizabeth
>Louches.
>4. Alice Camoys, married Sir Leonard Hastings.
>
The Book / CD "A Genealogical & Heraldic History of Commoners of GB &
Ireland" by John Burke 1836
states
"Adam Repington, JP and custos rotulorum for the hundreds of Caston
and Holland, in the County of Lincoln and also standard-bearer to
Richard II. Obtained by gift from his royal master the wardship of
Marian, dau and heiress of Henry Lambard, he espoused that lady, and
with her aquired certain lands in Long Sutton, in the County of
Lincoln. By the heiress of Lambard, who died in 1399, he left,with 2
daughters, the elder married Sir JOHN CAMOYS knt and the younger
Albrida, to Adam Resbie, of Ashover, in Derbyshire "


Could this John Camoys have married an Elizabeth Repington??????
sister of the Albrida mentioned in the text

It is a long shot!

Brendan Wilson
NZ


To Reply: remove Bkts and word DOT and put a dot. Stops Spam

Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Jan 6, 2007, 2:26:54 PM1/6/07
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

I had the opportunity yesterday to check the interesting work, History
and Antiquities of Rutland, by Thomas Blore, published in 1811. Mr.
Blore is one of the better 19th Century English historians.
Fortunately for us, he included an extensive pedigree of the baronial
Despenser family in Volume 1, Part II, page 19 of his work. Mr.
Blore's pedigrees are some of the more reliable ones in print.

Blore's pedigree shows the following children for Sir Hugh le
Despenser, Earl of Winchester, and his wife, Isabel de Beauchamp:

1. Hugh de Despenser "called junior."
2. Elizabeth, "mar. Ralph de Camoys, Baron Camoys, & had issue."
3. Johanna, "mar. John de St. Amand, Baron St. Amand, & had issue."
4. Aliva, "mar. Edward Burnell, Baron Burnell, without issue."
5. Eleanor, "a nun at Sempringham, co. Linc."

As I indicated earlier this week, Earl Hugh le Despenser and his wife,


Isabel de Beauchamp, actually had two sons, Sir Hugh and Sir Philip,
and four daughters, Aline (wife of Edward Burnel, Lord Burnell), Isabel
(wife successively of Gilbert de Clare, John de Hastings, Knt., 1st
Lord Hastings, and Ralph de Monthermer, Knt., 1st Lord Monthermer),
Margaret (wife of John de Saint Amand, Knt.), and Elizabeth (wife of

Ralph de Camoys, Knt., Lord Camoys). Blore was aware of the son,
Philip, but he moved him back a generation in the Despenser family.
The daughter Eleanor listed by Blore was actually a granddaughter of
Earl Hugh.

The list of the Despenser children is remarkably similar to the list of
the same family which was published the following year in Brydges,
Collins' Peerage of England 6 (1812): 496-511, with the exception
that Brydges shows Elizabeth, wife of Ralph de Camoys, as Ada, wife of
Ralph de Camoys; also, he correctly added another daughter, Isabel le
Despenser, who he showed married (1st) Hastings and (2nd) Monthermer.
Brydges was unaware of Isabel's first Clare marriage. My guess is that
Blore and Brydges relied on a similar manuscript source for their list
of the children of Earl Hugh le Despenser.

In 1912, one hundred years after Blore published his Despenser
pedigree, Complete Peerage inexpicably identified Elizabeth le
Despenser, wife of Sir Ralph de Camoys, as "probably a daughter or
sister of William de Rogate." [Reference: Complete Peerage, 2 (1912):
507]. The Rogate identification was made without reference to any
evidence whatsoever. And, thus, the correct parentage of Elizabeth le
Despenser, second wife of Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, was all but
forgotten. This is in spite of the fact that Elizabeth de Camoys had
already been correctly identified in several published works as the


daughter of Sir Hugh le Despenser, Earl of Winchester.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Jan 7, 2007, 9:18:19 AM1/7/07
to
Dear Brendan ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

VCH Bedfordshire, 3 (1912): 189-202 (sub Eaton Socon) yields yet
another possibility regarding the identity of Sir Thomas Camoys'
mother. According to this account, Sir Thomas Camoys (died 1421) made
a settlement of the manor of Honydon or Camoy's in Eaton Socon,
Bedfordshire in 1389. VCH Bedfordshire alleges that this manor was
earlier passed by inheritance to a certain Margaret, wife of John [de]
Camoys. However, the only known John de Camoys with a wife Margaret
who seems to fit this description was Sir John de Camoys, died in 1298,
whose wife was definitely Margaret de Gatesden, daughter of Sir John de
Gatesden. I don't believe Margaret de Gatesden was the sister of
William de Kirkeby.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +
Source:: VCH Bedfordshire, 3 (1912): 189-202 (sub Eaton Socon)

An estate in this parish known as HONYDON or CAMOYS MANOR was held of
the barony of Eaton by knight service and suit of court. (fn. 119) The
first tenant of whom mention has been found was William de Kirkeby,
whose widow Christine held here in 1302-3. (fn. 120) His sister and
co-heir Margaret, to whom this manor passed, married John Camoys,
member of a well-known Sussex family, (fn. 121) whose descendant Sir
Thomas Camoys, kt., in 1389 made a settlement of this manor on Robert
Braybrook, Bishop of London, and others. (fn. 122) Sir Thomas died in
1421, when his grandson Hugh, son of Richard Camoys, succeeded to
Honydon Manor, then worth £6, with 4s. 8d. rent of free tenants and
tenants at will. (fn. 123) Hugh died in 1426, whilst a minor, and his
sisters-Margaret wife of Ralph Rademilde and Eleanor wife of Roger
Lewknor-became his heirs. (fn. 124) The manor thus became divided
into moieties. Dealing first with that portion which passed to Margaret
Rademilde, her husband Ralph, who outlived her, is found in possession
of her share at his death in 1443. (fn. 125) No mention of Honydon is
found in the inquisition taken as to the property of Robert son of
Ralph Rademilde, who died in 1456, leaving a son William. (fn. 126)
William Rademilde's name occurs as a commissioner of the peace for
Sussex between the years 1476 and 1485 (fn. 127) ; but there is no
evidence that he held the Honydon property, whose history at this date
becomes confused. In 1476 Robert and John Spence were farming
Honydon-then apparently in the hands of the Crown-for 106s. 8d.,
(fn. 128) and in 1483 a commission was sent to the 'tenaunts of the
manoir' to accept J. Whitloke as their lord and to content unto him
their dues. (fn. 129) Camoys or Honydon Manor next appears as the
property of Avery Michell, who in 1557 leased it for twenty-one years
at a rent of £12 to Nicholas Fitz Hugh, who in 1570 brought an action
against William Morgan, representing Avery. Nicholas complained that
owing to his sickness whilst in Warwickshire there had been some delay
in the payments of the rent, and his lease had been transferred to
William Gery. (fn. 130) In 1577 John Michell alienated Honydon to
Oliver Lord St. John, (fn. 131) who in the same year received the other
moiety of the manor, whose history may here be conveniently traced.
Eleanor Lewknor's moiety passed to her son Roger, whose two daughters
each inherited one-fourth of the manor. Of these daughters one married
Sir Arthur Poole. (fn. 132) Lady Joanna Poole suffered a recovery of
Honydon in 1557, (fn. 133) and her fourth share appears to have passed
to Thomas Foster and others, who in 1576 alienated it to Lord St. John.
(fn. 134) Catherine second daughter of Roger Lewknor married John Mill,
and her son Lewknor Mill (fn. 135) in 1577 also alienated her share to
Oliver Lord St. John, (fn. 136) who had now acquired the complete
manor. He did not long retain it, however, but alienated it in 1580 to
Thomas Anscell. (fn. 137) About this time the manor was again broken
up.

Footnotes:

119 Feud. Aids, i, 15; Chan. Inq. p.m. 5 Hen. V, no. 25.
120 Feud. Aids, i, 15.
121 Roberts, Cal. Gen. ii, 622.
122 Close, 13 Ric. II, pt. ii, m. 12.
123 Chan. Inq. p.m. 5 Hen. V, no. 25, 26.
124 Ibid.
125 Ibid. 21 Hen. VI, no. 34.
126 Ibid. 35 Hen. VI, no. 15.
127 Cal. Pat. 1476-85, passim.
128 Mins. Accts. bdle. 1120, no. 4.
129 Harl. MS. 433.
130 Ct. of Req. bdle. 96, no. 43.
131 Com. Pleas D. Enr. Trin. 19 Eliz.; Recov. R. Trin. 1577.
132 Berry, Sussex Gen. 130. Her name is given here as Eleanor.
133 Recov. R. East. 1557.
134 Feet of F. Beds. East. 18 Eliz.
135 Berry, op. cit.
136 Feet of F. Beds. Trin. 19 Eliz.
137 Ibid. East. 22 Eliz.

mwelc...@yahoo.com

unread,
Jan 7, 2007, 11:37:30 PM1/7/07
to
Douglas,

Thank You for the interesting post on this. As I am related to Margaret
Goushill and Philip le Despenser it is very interesting to find more
names of children lost in time.

Best Wishes
Michael Welch
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
> World colonists who descend from Elizabeth le Despenser and her
> husband, Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys:
>
> Samuel Argall, Charles Barham, Joseph Bickley, William Bladen, Charles
> & Leonard Calvert, St. Leger Codd, Henry Filmer, Henry Fleete, Warham
> Horsmanden, Anne Lovelace, Katherine Saint Leger, Rose Stoughton,
> Samuel & William Torrey.

jmb...@albion.edu

unread,
Dec 20, 2014, 1:21:59 PM12/20/14
to
Resurrecting an old posting here, but I am trying to ascertain if any new evidence has come to light regarding the parentage of Elizabeth Meverell, wife of William Basset of Blore (d.1506). The reason I am connecting to this Camoys-Despenser posting is that Elizabeth may be a descendant of this couple, as follows:

1. Elizabeth le Despenser, m. Sir Ralph de Camoys
2. Margaret Camoys, m. John de Shelvestrode
3. Joan de Shelvestrode, m. John Aske (d.1396)
4. Elizabeth Aske (d.1403) m. Thomas FitzWilliam
5. Thomas FitzWilliam of Maplethorpe (d.1479), m. Margaret Dymoke
6. Elizabeth FitzWilliam, m. Robert Eyre of Padley
7. Jane Eyre, m. Thomas Meverell of Throwley (c.1485-)
8. Elizabeth Meverell, m. William Basset of Blore

Further, William and Elizabeth's daughter Anne (m. Thomas Alsop) was a great-grandmother of John Alsop, husband of immigrant Temperance Gilbert (of proven royal descent) and parents of Elizabeth (Alsop) Baldwin of Milford, Connecticut.

Generations 2-4 are provided in vol. 6 of the Transactions of the East Riding Antiquarian Society, though by their own admission they were working mainly with heraldry issues rather than strict genealogy:

https://books.google.com/books?id=DmAJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=camoys+shelvestrode&source=bl&ots=_b4PccN_bI&sig=FbjQMpMqJBLtCRnDiSjaV9Jecuc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jryVVPiLH5PQgwTMsIKoCA&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=camoys%20shelvestrode&f=false

Also, I noticed that Burke's Commoners mentioned Robert Eyre of Padley (generation 6) as being the father of Ann Eyre, wife of Thomas Meverell of Throwley.
Is anyone available to point me in the direction of some confirming/disproving sources, especially for generations 7-8?
Cheers,
Jim+
Message has been deleted

jmb...@albion.edu

unread,
Dec 20, 2014, 8:07:26 PM12/20/14
to
My apologies. I forgot a critical word:

"Further, William and Elizabeth's *alleged* daughter Anne (m. Thomas Alsop) was a great-grandmother of John Alsop, husband of immigrant Temperance Gilbert (of proven royal descent) and parents of Elizabeth (Alsop) Baldwin of Milford, Connecticut."

Incidentally, I have not seen any recent work on this connection since Roberts' RD500, but I note he did not include an Alsop line in his RD600, nor even a mention of its probability or lack thereof. Is the line definitely disproven then? Or simply lacking evidence?
Cheers,
Jim+

John Watson

unread,
Dec 21, 2014, 6:50:55 AM12/21/14
to
Dear Jim,

I know nothing of the later generations, but the earlier ones interest me.

2. Margaret Camoys, m. John de Shelvestrode
There is no direct evidence that I'm aware of, that Margaret wife of John de Shelvestrode was a daughter of Ralph Camoys.

In 1329, Margaret, the wife of John de Shelvestrode was a minor in charge of a guardian, as shown by the Sussex fine below. This means that Margaret was born in or after 1315. CP says that Ralph Camoys married his second wife Elizabeth, before 1319. Which means that IF Margaret was a daughter of Ralph Camoys, she could possibly have been by his first wife Margaret Brewes.

1329 (4 Edw. III): John de Sheluestrode and Margaret his wife (by John de Aulton, guardian of Margaret) v. Peter de Goushull, rector of the church of Bradwater, and John de Hampton, rector of the church of Petteworth; a messuage and two-thirds of a carucate in Petteworth, Tolynton and Dunketon; to John and Margaret and heirs of their bodies, contingent remainder to right heirs of John. Similar fine for manors of Sheluestrode and Bestenore.
An abstract of Feet of Fines for the County of Sussex: vol. 3: 1308-1509 (1916), pp. 63-78

She probably had some connection with the family of Camoys, since Thomas de Camoys of Broadwater was one of the godparents of her son Roger de Shelvestrode in June 1334.
Sussex Archaeological Collections, Vol. 12 (London, 1860) p. 29.

3. Joan de Shelvestrode, m. John Aske (d.1396)
John de Aske died before 29 July 1395, which was the date of his Durham inquisition post mortem. Joan survived him and was living in August 1398.

4. Elizabeth Aske (d.1403) m. Thomas FitzWilliam [also died 1403]
I have seen no primary evidence that John Aske and Joan Shelvestrode had a daughter called Elizabeth. The children of John and Joan were probably born between 1360 and 1380. At a guess if Elizabeth Aske was born about 1370, and had a son Thomas, when she was 20 years old, in 1390, then he must have been about 90 years old when he died. I think that this is highly unlikely.

Regards,
John

jmb...@albion.edu

unread,
Dec 22, 2014, 11:11:03 AM12/22/14
to
Dear John,
Thanks for the reply. At this point it seems that generations 2-4 are inconclusive, but at least possible. As for the hypothetical about Elizabeth Aske, I would submit that, at a guess, Elizabeth (b.1360-1380?) could have had her son Thomas FitzWilliam around 1400, shortly before she died (1403), making him under 80 when he died (1479). Still speculation, but I don't think I can call it unlikely. As for Elizabeth's parentage, the only evidence I have at this time is p.50 of the Transactions (referenced in my first post):

"In Maplethorpe Church was a memorial for Thomas Fitzwilliam, esq. (ob. 1 Nov., 1403), and Elizabeth (Aske) his wife (ob. 17 June, the same year), with the arms of Fitzwilliam alone, impaling Aske, quartering Dawtrey (Add. MS. 17,506, f.38)."

It appears that Elizabeth had some connection with the Askes, but what filiation it was remains unproven.
Cheers,
Jim+
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