Re: Mary Browne, widow of Lord John Grey, of Pirgo, Essex and her alleged 2n...
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
Dear Newsgroup ~
>>>>>
A new book, Catholicism and Community in Early Modern England, by
Michael Questier, published in 2006, states on page 93 that Mary
Browne, widow of Lord John Grey, of Pirgo (in Havering-atte-Bower) ,
Essex, married (2ndly) Sir Henry Capel, of Hadham, Hertfordshire. See
the following weblink for that information:
http://books.google.com/books?id=hjQHtU3OiisC&pg=RA1-PA93&vq=Pirgo&dq=Questier
+Mary+Grey+Capel&source=gbs_search_s&sig=ACfU3U0u4dtJp3xE3XnCz1X7_kfEjDfE-A
My research confirms that Mary Browne did in fact survive her husband,
Sir John Grey's death in 1564. I find she was living as late as 1573,
being then styled Mary Grey, widow, when she and her son, Henry Grey,
Esquire, conveyed the manor of Hoo Hall (in Rivenhall), Essex to John
Wood and James Morres [Reference: Ancient Deeds—Series B 3 (List &
Index Soc. 113) (1975): B.12716]. She is likewise styled "Lady Mary
Grey, late the wife of Sir John Grey" in another contemporary record
dated 12 Elizabeth [1569–1570] [Reference: PRO Document, DL 25/3359].
Elsewhere, Collins' Peerage of England, 2 (1756): 273, echoes Questier
in syaing that Henry Capel "married Mary, daughter of Anthony Browne,
Viscount Montagu; and after her decease, Catherine fourth daughter of
Thomas Manners, Earl of Rutland." Yet Clutterbuck's History of
Hertford 1:243-244 indicates that Henry Capel's wife, Catherine
Manners, died 9 March 1572. Collins attributes nine children to Henry
Capel's marriage to Catherine Manners. If Clutterbuck has his dates
correctly stated, it would simply not be possible chronologically for
Henry Capel to have married (1st) Mary Browne, widow of Lord John
Grey, of Pirgo, Essex.
Below is the weblink for Collins:
http://books.google.com/books?id=QIkUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA372&dq=Mary+Browne+Capel&lr
=#PPA373,M1
While there may be a better explanation for the strange mix-up by
Questier, the most likely solution to this problem is found in
Collins' account of the Capel family in his work, Peerage of England,
2 (1756): 273. He indicates there that Arthur Capel, son of Sir Henry
Capel and Catherine Manners, married "Mary, daughter of John Grey,
Lord Grey of Pergo." Arthur Capel and his wife, Mary Grey,
reportedly had no less than nineteen children. If so, then it would
seem that Arthur Capel was married to a daughter of this same Sir John
Grey of Pirgo. Whatever the case, it is not possible for Arthur
Capel's father, Henry Capel, to have married this lady's mother,
unless of course it was after 1573.
Any comments would be appreciated. When replying, please cite your
sources and provide weblinks if you have them.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
<<<<<
I have a note that in a previous discussion here it was decided that Mary
was probably married to Sir Henry Capel, uncle to the one in your post.
By the way Mary was sister, not daughter, of Anthony Browne, Viscount
Montague (note also the final "e" on Montague.)
Burke's calls Mary's second husband Henry Capel _Bart_, an obvious error.
Adrian
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
with the Viscounts Montague family
Adrian
In a message dated 18/07/2008 15:45:19 GMT Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:
>>>>
Dear SImon ~
Checking the National Archives catalogue just now, I didn't find the
lawsuit dated 1616, involving Lady Mary Grey, widow of Lord Joihn Grey
and Henry Capell, Esq., which you mentioned was cited in Warrand's
Hertfordshire Families (1907). The existence of the 1616 lawsuit,
however, proves my belief that Lady Grey did not die in 1614, as
stated without evidence in the article on the Capell family in Trans.
Essex Arch. Soc. n.s. 9 (1906): 243–272.
Regardless, I did find another lawsuit dated post-1588 which involves
a certain Anthony Browne, Esquire, and the Capell family. In the
lawsuit, Anthony Browne claimed a manor in Essex "by devise."
Possibly this lawsuit is of interest to you.
C 2/Eliz/B18/59
Record Summary
Scope and content
Anthony Browne esquire v Sir John Peter Henry Capell, Gamaliel Capell
and Nicholas Waldegrave. Claim by devise. The manor of South Weald
with a free warren or free chase; the parsonage of South Weald and the
manor of Costhall alias Costed Hall; the fair and markets of
Brentwood; the manor of Calcotts alias Caldecotts and a messuage in
Brook Street, which lately was the free chapel there, and certain
lands containing 100 acres, commonly called the Spittle Lands or
Chauntry Lands, and 36s. 3d. rent thereto belonging, and divers other
lands, late the possessions of Sir Anthony Browne, late one of the
justices of the common pleas; all which are situate in South Weald,
Shenfield, Duddinghurst, Brentwood, Brooke Street, Navestock, Keldon,
Gyngrave, Much Warley, Little Warley, Upminster and Clavering or
elsewhere. Essex.
Short title: Browne v Capell etc.
Covering dates Between 1558 and 1603
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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<<<<
wjhonson
Essex, his heir-male line would have descendend through his elder
brother John deceased to *his* elder son George deceased to *his*
elder son Sir Wistan "Wester" Browne of White Roding who probably died
in 1581 when that year his Will was proved 27 Apr (Prob 11/63)
Sir Wistan was buried there in South Weald.
Actually I'm not *quite* certain that his father George was dead so
possibly we'd have a "George Browne of South Weald" for a few years,
but he was certainly dead by 1573.
Sir Wistan had two daughters and co-heiresses of him
Catherine (Browne) Waldegrave wife of Nicholas and
Jane (Browne) Capell wife of Gameliel (he aet 4 in 1570)
Those details should help solve what this document is about.
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
john.b...@ntlworld.com writes:
You might do better to wonder at the situation in Scotland, where - as far
as I can tell - nobody persecuted anyone else, but the whole country became
Protestant almost overnight in 1560. The was no Dissolution of the
Monasteries there, but they simply evaporated.>>
-----------------------
I'm suspicious of the accuracy of your last sentence.
Do you have a source for that?
Will Johnson
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
>>>>>
SNIP
Likewise the author makes no comment as to Mary Browne's exact date of
death. Surely this good lady's death date must be of record
someplace. Perhaps Adrian Channing might have an idea how to find it.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
<<<<<
Mary Browne was still alive in 1592
Anthony Browne (c1527-1592) 1st Viscount will of 19 July 1592
...
To sister Marye, late wife of John Graye, sister Mabell, Countess of
Kyldare, and sister Lucie Roper, a piece of silver plate guilt to the value of £10,
each
To daughters, the Countess of Southampton, Elizabeth Dormer, and Jane Lacon,
to each a piece of plate of the like value [no Mabel Capel see below]
Reference: SAS-BA/67; Probate of the Will of this date of ANTHONYE VISCOUNTE
MOUNTAGUE, K.G; Creation dates: 19 Jul 1592
PRO; A2A; West Sussex Record Office: Montague family
It seems strange that the above does not mention her second husband Henry
Capel
Nor is she mentioned on the M.I., Rayne Church
Sir Henry Capel kt. ob. 1588 and Katherine (Manners) his wife, daughter of
Thomas, 1st Earl of Rutland K.G.
http://www.peterjoslin.btinternet.co.uk/rayne.htm
Burke's Extinct Peerage adds more problems showing two different marriages
between the Brownes (Vt Montague family) and the Capels:
Mary Browne [d of Sir Anthony Browne (1500-1548) by his m1 Alice (-1540) d
of Sir John Gage] m1 to John Grey 2nd son of Thomas Marques of Dorset; and
2ndly, to Sir Henry Capel, of Hadham, co. Herts, Bart [NB 1st Barts were 1611,
so this bit is wrong]
AND
Mabel d of Sir Anthony Browne 1st Viscount Montague by his m2 Magdalen d of
William, Lord Dacres m Sir Henry Capel, ancestor to the Earl of Essex.
This Mabel Browne was not in her father's will of 1592, as she had
predeceased him as is confirmed in the M.I. to the 1st Viscount. She was mentioned in
a settlement of 1569 (a settlement which included lands in Hoe, a place
previously mentioned in this thread) {See PRO; A2A; West Sussex Record Office:
Montague family Reference: SAS-BA/41] If BEP has given her the correct mother
than she was born after 1553 (date of the death of Viscount Montigue's first
wife). This Mable looks too young to have been the wife of the Henry Capell
who died in 1588, but too old to be wife of Sir Henry Capel, his grandson
Note this younger Henry m1 was to a Theodosia d of Sir Edward Montagu, a
possible cause for confusion
Adrian