Gwion ap Jonas, 2nd husband of Margaret ferch Madog
John P. Ravilious
Hello All,
Recently, Doug Richardson provided documentary evidence
concerning Wyone ap Ione, the second husband of Margaret ferch
Madog (the mother of Llywelyn Fawr, prince of Aberffraw and lord of
Snowdon) [1]. In addition to proving the second marriage, these
documents also proved that Margaret was the daughter of Madog ap
Maredudd, prince of Powys (d. 1160).
In an article by Dr. Frederick Suppe of Ball State University,
concerning Roger ap Goronwy of Powys, I noted that he was best
known as an adherent to King Henry II of England ca. 1155-1186,
together with his brother Jonas ap Goronwy. The eldest son of
Jonas was Gwion, concerning whose career Dr. Suppe wrote,
' Gwion, the son of Roger's brother Jonas, started receiving
annual revenues worth £7 from Wellington (which is adjacent to
Wrockwardine) in 1194, payments which continued until at least
1206. Gwion assisted his cousin Meurig in guarding the Denbigh
castle in 1196-7, receiving 20s. in compensation. ' [2]
' Sometime between 1205 and 1210 Gwion also witnessed two
charters by Llywelyn ab Iorwerth, one granting land in Ellesmere
to Haughmond Abbey and the second confirming an earlier and
similar grant made by Dafydd ab Owain Gwynedd. ' [3]
In addition to the connections readily drawn above, Dr. Suppe
also documented the connection of Gwion's father Jonas ap Goronwy,
and cousin Meurig ap Roger Powys, to Overton, part of which we have
seen charter evidence for gifts by 'Wyone ap Ione' to Combermere
priory in Doug's research [4].
Further, in addition to the name Gwion ap Jonas being identical
(latitude for pronunciation and clerical spelling) to 'Wyone ap
Ione', there is also the evidence of social rank. Gwion's marriage
to Margaret ferch Madog, Llywelyn Fawr's widowed mother, is not
exceptional: his first cousin was Meurig ap Roger Powys, who was
married to Llywelyn's cousin Gwenhwyfar ferch Dafydd - who also
happened to be a cousin of King John of England [see pedigree,
below].
We can readily identify Gwion ap Jonas as being identical to
'Wyone ap Ione'. I have not found evidence of any issue of the
marriage of Gwion ap Jonas and Margaret ferch Madog: any such
discovery may result from a detailed review of Bartrum's Welsh
pedigrees.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES (to post):
[1] Douglas Richardson, <Llywelyn ap Iorwerth's step-father,
Wion ap Ione>, SGM, 7 October 2005.
[2] Frederick Suppe, Roger of Powys, Henry II's Anglo-Welsh
Middleman," The Welsh History Review, Volume 21, Number 1,
1 June 2002, p. 18 [cites Pipe Roll 6 Ric I p. 140, Pipe
Roll 6 John p. 158; also Pipe Roll 8 Ric I p. 42]
[3] Ibid., pp. 19-20 [cites Rees, Haughmond Chartulary
pp. 137, No. 657 and 216, No. 1172]
[4] D. Richardson, as above.
===============================================
1 Rhys Sais ap Ednyfed
----------------------------------------
Death: 1070[1]
of Chirk, Nanheudwy, Whittington, Oswestry, Maelor Isaf and
Ellesmere[2]
(said to have held same at the time of Domesday Book, 1086[2] -
evidently this was his son Tudur was the tenant[1])
"Rhys Sais = Efa f. Gruffudd Hir"[Bartrum IV:870,
Tudur Trefor 1][3]
cf. Suppe, pp. 2, [1]
Spouse: Efa[2]
Children: Tudur
Elidir (->1080)
Iddon
Generys
Angharad
1.1 Tudur ap Rhys Sais
----------------------------------------
of Nanheudwy
' Tudur, was probably the Tudor named in Domesday Book as holding
from the earl of Shrewsbury an unnamed border district, probably
Nanheudwy, the region between the rivers Dees and Ceiriog ' [Suppe
p. 3[1], cites Domesday Book f. 253c]
Children: Goronwy
1.1.1 Goronwy ap Tudur
----------------------------------------
cf. Suppe, pp. 2, [1]
Children: Roger (-ca1186)
Jonas
1.1.1.1 Roger ap Goronwy ' of Powys '
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1186[1]
of Whittington, co. Salop.
witness to a charter of William fitz Alan granting the advowson of
Wroxeter to Haughmond Abbey, 25 Jul 1155 [Suppe p. 3[1], cites
Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey p. 244, No.1370]
custodian of the castle of St. Briavels, co. Glocs., 1157-1164
also custodian of Overton and 'Dernio' castles, 1159/60
had grant of Whittington castle, 1170 [Suppe p. 14[1]]
cf. Suppe, "Roger of Powys, Henry II's Anglo-Welsh Middleman"[1]
Children: Meurig
Maredudd
Goronwy
Owain
Roger
Thomas
1.1.1.1.1 Meurig ap Roger
----------------------------------------
cf. Suppe p. 17[1]
Richardson p. 2[4]
Spouse: Gwenhwyfar ferch Dafydd
Father: Dafydd ap Owain, prince of Gwynedd (-1203)
Mother: Emma de Anjou, (illeg.) daughter of Geoffrey 'Plantagenet'
1.1.1.1.2 Owain ap Roger
----------------------------------------
cf. Suppe p. 17[1]
Spouse: Angharad ferch Rhys
Death: bef Sep 1226[5]
Father: Rhys ap Gruffydd, prince of Deheubarth
"the Lord Rhys" (1132-1197)
Mother: NN
1.1.1.2 Jonas ap Goronwy
----------------------------------------
of Llannerch Banna
received payment of 10s. 4d. in wages, 'presumably payment for some
soldiers', 1159/60 [Suppe p. 7[1], cites Pipe Roll 6 Hen II, p. 7]
received payment of 40s. from the sheriff of Worcestershire, and
100s. from the sheriff of Shropshire, for custody of one or more
locations, 1160/1 [Suppe p. 8[1], cites Pipe Roll 7 Hen II,
pp. 55, 39]
received £ 14 annually from Wrockwardine, co. Salop. together
with his brother Roger, from 1172 until his death (1174/5)
[Suppe p. 15[1], cites Pipe Roll 18 Hen II p. 110, Pipe Roll
19 Hen II, p. 107]
cf. Suppe, pp. 2, 12 et seq.[1]
Children: Gwion
Llywelyn
Dafydd
Gwilym
Ynyr
1.1.1.2.1 Gwion ap Jonas
----------------------------------------
of his career, Suppe wrote:
' Gwion, the son of Roger's brother Jonas, started receiving annual
revenues worth £7 from Wellington (which is adjacent to
Wrockwardine) in 1194, payments which continued until at least
1206. Gwion assisted his cousin Meurig in guarding the Denbigh
castle in 1196-7, receiving 20s. in compensation. ' [Suppe
p. 18[1], cites Pipe Roll 6 Ric I p. 140, Pipe Roll 6 John
p. 158; also Pipe Roll 8 Ric I p. 42]
' Sometime between 1205 and 1210 Gwion also witnessed two charters
by Llywelyn ab Iorwerth, one granting land in Ellesmere to
Haughmond Abbey and the second confirming an earlier and similar
grant made by Dafydd ab Owain Gwynedd. ' [Suppe pp. 19-20[1],
cites Rees, Haughmond Chartulary pp. 137, No. 657 and 216,
No. 1172]
2nd husband of Margaret ferch Madog[1]
cf. Suppe, pp. 18-20[1]
VCH Shropshire, XI:215[6]
Spouse: Margaret ferch Madog, widow of Iorwerth Drwyndwn
Father: Madog ap Maredudd of Powys (-~1160)
Mother: NN
1. Frederick Suppe, "Roger of Powys, Henry II's Anglo-Welsh
Middleman," The Welsh History Review, Volume 21, Number 1,
1 June 2002, pp. 1-23, University of Wales Press,
URL
http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/deliver/cw/uwp/0083792x/v21n1/s1/p1.pdf?fmt=dirpdf&tt=6311&cl=66&ini=connect&bini=&wis=connect&ac=0&acs=32629,75000325&expires=1131981296&checksum=CE2804C3A62039CD0A9AEA65261B4C5F&cookie=920203392
2. Pedigree of Wales, Descent from Rhodri Mawr, comp. by Robert
O'Connor
email roco...@es.co.nz
3. Peter C. Bartrum, "Welsh Genealogies, AD 300 - 1400," University
of Wales Press, 1974, re: Dafydd Llwyd of Crewe, cites MS
Peniarth 135:118, and MS Peniarth 128:170a (Vol. IV p. 889,
Tudur Trefor 20).
4. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in Colonial
and Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing
Company, 2004.
5. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
6. G. C. Baugh, ed., "A History of the County of Shropshire,"
Volume 11: Telford (1985), Oxford: published for the Institute
of Historical Research, Oxford Univ. Press, 1985, Volume
11: Telford (1985), pp. 215-21, online available, courtesy
British History Online, URL
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=18141
* John P. Ravilious
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <The...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 7:20 AM
Subject: Gwion ap Jonas, 2nd husband of Margaret ferch Madog
> Monday, 14 November, 2005
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> Recently, Doug Richardson provided documentary evidence
> concerning Wyone ap Ione, the second husband of Margaret ferch
> Madog (the mother of Llywelyn Fawr, prince of Aberffraw and lord of
> Snowdon) [1]. In addition to proving the second marriage, these
> documents also proved that Margaret was the daughter of Madog ap
> Maredudd, prince of Powys (d. 1160).
>
Dear John,
Do you mean it provided_ additional_ proof that Margred (also Marared) ferch
Madog was the daughter of Madog ap Maredudd, prince of Powys (d.1160).?
In 1973 Burke's Guide to the Royal Family (pages 322 and 325) also gives
this link.
What they do not have is this second marriage of Marared/Margred.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
John P. Ravilious
Actually, my read until of late was one of uncertainty. Margaret
was widely _accepted_ as being dau. of Madog ap Maredudd (d. 1160),
but Stewart Baldwin had written:
" 3. Margred ferch Madog [JC.29] [Note: It has been suggested, on
the basis of a statement in Dugdale's Monasticon Anglicanum
(6:497), in which Llywelyn refers to a certain Walter Corbet as
"frater Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei", that Llywelyn's mother
was a Corbet. (See, for example, Meisel's Barons of the Welsh
Frontier, which, however, does not even mention the Welsh
version of Llywelyn's maternity in JC.) However, as the source
of JC.29 appears to have been written during Llywelyn's lifetime,
and there are others ways in which an uncle-nephew relationship
between William Corbet (an obscure individual) and Llywelyn
could be explained, there seems to be no good reason to reject
the statement of JC.29 regarding the identity of Llywelyn's
mother.]
URL http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/llywelyn.htm
The identification was there, but not corroborated. The
documentation provided by Douglas (Richardson) show that "M.
matrem Lewelini Principis Norwallie " was the same individual
as " Margeriae filiae Madoci", which provides the proof lacking
until now.
Now, if we can find out the details on the Corbet connection to
Llywelyn......
Cheers,
John
"Leo" wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <The...@aol.com>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 7:20 AM
> Subject: Gwion ap Jonas, 2nd husband of Margaret ferch Madog
>
<<<<<<<<<<<<< SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>Dear Leo,
>
> Actually, my read until of late was one of uncertainty. Margaret
> was widely _accepted_ as being dau. of Madog ap Maredudd (d. 1160),
> but Stewart Baldwin had written:
>
> " 3. Margred ferch Madog [JC.29] [Note: It has been suggested, on
> the basis of a statement in Dugdale's Monasticon Anglicanum
> (6:497), in which Llywelyn refers to a certain Walter Corbet as
> "frater Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei", that Llywelyn's mother
> was a Corbet. (See, for example, Meisel's Barons of the Welsh
> Frontier, which, however, does not even mention the Welsh
> version of Llywelyn's maternity in JC.) However, as the source
> of JC.29 appears to have been written during Llywelyn's lifetime,
> and there are others ways in which an uncle-nephew relationship
> between William Corbet (an obscure individual) and Llywelyn
> could be explained, there seems to be no good reason to reject
> the statement of JC.29 regarding the identity of Llywelyn's
> mother.]
> URL http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/llywelyn.htm
>
> The identification was there, but not corroborated. The
> documentation provided by Douglas (Richardson) show that "M.
> matrem Lewelini Principis Norwallie " was the same individual
> as " Margeriae filiae Madoci", which provides the proof lacking
> until now.
This is not true. The source which I cited, "JC.29" (which was an
abbreviation for "Jesus College MS 20, section 29", from Bartrum's
"Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts") quite clearly documents the
maternal descent of Llywelyn ("Llewelyn m. Marereda merch Madawc m.
Maredud."), as I had stated (and as was already well known for a long
time before I wrote the above). [Note: Meisel's carelessness in one
work does not mean that the error was widely accepted.]
> Now, if we can find out the details on the Corbet connection to
> Llywelyn......
That would be nice.
Stewart Baldwin
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post.
You have correctly identified the parentage of "Wion ap Ione," the
step-father of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales. Eyton's
Antiquities of Shropshire has several references to this individual.
In Vol. 10, pg. 252, footnote 3, he specifically states that Wion ap
Ione who witnessed one of Prince Llywelyn's charters dated 1205/10 to
Haughmond Abbey is the same person as Wion, son of Jonas de Powis. In
Vol. 9, pp. 41-42, Eyton states that "Wian, son of Jonas de Powis," had
the King's mandate for 7 librates of land in Wellington, Shropshire.
Wion received an annual payment in connection to Wellington, Shropshire
from 1194 through May 1210. In 1203, "as Wianus Wallensis," he was
assessed 6 merks to the fifth Scutage of King John. Eyton adds the
following comment: "His liability doubtless arose from his
tenure-in-capite at Wellington. Of him, as sometime Lord of Overton
(Flintshire), I shall have more to say when I come to the history of
the Borders." About Mid-summer 1210 Thomas de Erdington appears to
have obtained a fee-farm grant of Wellington from King John. Thus, it
seems likely that Wion ap Jonas de Powis died sometime in 1210. In
Vol. 11, pg. 33, he states that Wian, son of Jonas de Powis, and his
cousin, Meurich de Powis, were deputed in 1196 to take custody of
Denbigh Castle by King Richard I of England. In the same vol., pg. 32,
he states that in 1172, Wion's father, Jonas de Powis, and Jonas'
brother, Roger de Powis, "were endowed with considerable charges`on the
Royal Manor of Wrockwardine." Elsewhere in Vol. 3, pg. 105, he states
that Jonas de Powis, and his brother, Roger de Powis, "had held
Whittington (Shropshire) and Overton (Flintshire) by authority and
grant of King Henry II, and by the Serjeantry or the service of 'beaing
the King's Mandates throughout Wales'."
Peter Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies 300-1400 (1980), charts Tudor
Trefor 2, 7, and 8 cover this family. He refers to Wion ap Ione as
"Gwion," and states that he was living in 1196, citing Eyton, xi:
31-33, as his source. Bartrum shows no marriage or children for Wion
ap Jonas de Powis. Presumably both Bartrum and the historian Suppe
modernized his name Wion as "Gwion," as Eyton repeatedly calls him Wion
or Wian (citing contemporary records), never as Gwion. Bartrum and
Supp both confirm that Wion ap Jonas de Powis had a brother, Dafydd,
which fact agrees with Wion's charter which I previously posted.
Regarding Wion ap Jonas' father, Bartrum calls him "Ionas ap Gronwy,"
"of Llannerch Banna," and states he was living in 1161. Bartrum
likewise cites Eyton as a source, xi: 31-33, for "Ionas ap Gronwy."
Yet, Eyton refers to him as Jonas de Powis, and shows that Jonas was
living as late as 1172, not 1161. Eyton makes no mention of the
locality, Llannerch Banna. Bartrum confirms that "Ionas ap Gronwy" was
brother to "Sir Roger Powys." lord of Whittington. However, we have
another apparent error here on Bartrum's part, as Roger should be
correctly called Roger de Powys (or Roger of Powys), not Roger Powys.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Todd A. Farmerie
> Peter Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies 300-1400 (1980), charts Tudor
> Trefor 2, 7, and 8 cover this family. He refers to Wion ap Ione as
> "Gwion," and states that he was living in 1196, citing Eyton, xi:
> 31-33, as his source. Bartrum shows no marriage or children for Wion
> ap Jonas de Powis. Presumably both Bartrum and the historian Suppe
> modernized his name Wion as "Gwion," as Eyton repeatedly calls him Wion
> or Wian (citing contemporary records), never as Gwion.
Given that Latin, the language of Eyton's charters, was not the native
language of the man, I don't know that a Welsh spelling must necessarily
be considered "modernized", rather than simply better reflecting the
name in the vernacular of the time (particularly when one takes the
different alphabets into account).
In fact, last time I gwas in Gwales, I recall no indication that such
gwords or names gwould be represented this gway only in 'modernized' Gwelsh.
taf
Douglas Richardson
and female, taken from a tax roll called The Merioneth Lay Subsidy Roll
of 1292-3. The names are those of Welsh people living in north-western
Wales, in an area that had experienced relatively little influx of
English people at that point. The tax roll was written by people
familiar with English and Latin, but not necessarily with Welsh, so
names do not necessarily appear in "classic" Welsh spellings. For
reference, the website has provided the "standard" form of name
elements in square brackets. The names are arranged in order of
frequency, from most popular to less popular.
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/welsh13.html#merioneth
"Men's Names
[Gwion] Wion, Wyon, Gwion, Gwyon
If the website is correct, it appears that Wion and Wyon were more
frequent spellings on the tax list than Gwion or Gwyon. Gwion,
however, is evidently deemed to be the "standard" form of this name,
as it is in square brackets.
The...@aol.com
Douglas Richardson
As a followup to my original post, I thought I would share the
information which Eyton gives in Vol. 11, pg. 50 regarding the early
tenure of Overton, Flintshire:
"OVERTON, held, with its Castle, by the Peverels, in the reigns of
Henry I. and Stephen, and subsequently held by Roger de Powis, not
under the Lords of Powis Vadoc, but under Henry II. And though in
Richard I.'s time, a Cadet of the House of Powis Vadoc asserted and
exercised a certain power in Overton, that same power was at a later
period reasserted and re-exercised by the nephew of Roger de Powis;
while King John actually confirmed Overton to the Grandsons of Roger de
Powis, as an English fief." END OF QUOTE.
As we can see above, Eyton makes no mention of Gwion ap Jonas de Powis
in his account of Overton, but he does refer to an unnnamed nephew of
Roger de Powis who "reasserted and re-exercised" a certain power there
sometime before 1216. I take it this nephew was Gwion ap Jonas. Roger
de Powis had only one known brother, Jonas de Powis, so Roger's unnamed
nephew would presumably be a son of Jonas de Powis.. Elsewhere (Vol.
9, pp. 41-42), Eyton specifically states that Gwion ap Jonas de Powis
was "sometime Lord of Overton (Flintshire)." So, Eyton was clearly
aware of Gwion's connection to Overton.
Regarding Overton itself, Eyton (Vol. 11, pg. 48-50) states that it was
part of the district (or reputed commote) known by the Welsh as Maelor
Saesneg. Eyton indicates that the fee-simple of Maelor Saesneg "was in
the descendants of Bleddyn ap Tudor." He further indicates that "Roger
de Powis and other descendants of the Tudor Walensis, so far as their
tenancy in Maelor Saesneg can be traced by authentic records, held
under the English crown."
Finally, Eyton states (Vol. 11, pg. 49) that "Bleddyn, the elder son of
Tudor, is further stated to have inherited Maelor Saesneg, and from him
many Welsh families derive their descent. We have seen that Wronou, a
younger son of Tudor, is alleged to have been the father of Roger and
Jonas de Powis."
Peter Bartrum in Welsh Genealogies 300-1400 (1980), chart Tudor Trefor
2 shows that Gronwy (i.e., Wronou), father of Jonas and Roger de Powis,
was the younger brother of Bleddyn ap Tudor. Gronwy and Bleddyn are in
turn shown to have been the sons of Tudur ap Rhys Sais.
Eyton gives no source for his statement that Wronou was the father of
Jonas and Roger de Powis. As with Wion vs. Gwion, I assume that
Bartrum has standardized the given name, Wronou, given by Eyton as the
name of the father of Jonas and Roger de Powis, to be spelled Gronwy.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson
For further confirmation that Gwion ap Jonas' father was known as Jonas
de Powis, Eyton (Vol. 10, pg. 323, footnote 3) gives a list of various
charges taken from the 1165 Pipe-Roll. He includes the following two
charges, one being a payment to Jonas de Powis, by writ of the king,
and one being a payment to Jonas' brother, Roger de Powis.
"Et Jone de Powis, 20s. per breve Regis."
"Et Roger de Powis, 13s. 4d."
Eyton takes these charges to be an indication of a state of Border
warfare. Presumably Jonas and Roger de Powis were on the side of the
English. Eyton (Vol. 10, pg. 323) adds the following gruesome
information about the Welsh activities of King Henry II of England in
1165:
"It was in July of this very year that Henry encamped near Oswestry,
prepared to encounter the princes of North and South Wales, now allied
with Owen Cyvelioc, Prince of Higher Powis. The result was a check to
the English arms on the River Ceireoc, and a boot-less encampment on
the bleak heights of the Berwyn. The King, retiring at length to
Chester, is said in his wrath to have put out the eyes of the Welsh
hostages who had been in his custody since 1157."
Douglas Richardson
Those interested in the ongoing discussion regarding the identity of
Gwion ap Jonas de Powis, the step-father of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth,
Prince of North Wales, may wish to read the interesting article on
Gwion's uncle, Roger de Powis, written by Frederick Suppe, which
article was cited by John Ravilious in his post this week. Happily,
the Suppe article is available for reading online at the following
weblink:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/uwp/whis/2002/00000021/00000001/art00001
I note that Suppe discusses the 1165 campaign of King Henry II, which
one historian has called a "total failure." As I noted in my post
earlier today, Eyton records payments to Gwion ap Jonas' father and
uncle as part of this campaign.
Kudos to the Welsh History Review for making the Suppe article
available for online reading.