A medley of Hoo, Bourchier, Boleyn, etc

Tim Powys-Lybbe

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Jul 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/26/99

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I have come across an entry in Miscellanea Genealogica and Heraldica
VIII, part V pp 133-5, March 1933. This was by J R Twisden about an
ornamental Pedigree of 1679 prepared for Sir Wm Twysden probably by
someone in the College of Arms (that usually reliable source :-) ).

I have found various reports that confirm some of this but I have not
seen confirmation of it all.

One real problem is that the author did not give the names of the wives,
just their coats of arms. (Wm Twysden was undoubtedly trying to show
connections with the Great and the Good and women, queens apart, were
not counted...)

I am presenting this diagramatically as that it how it was devised; I do
not think any listing would communicate the links. You'll need to put
it in a fixed font (e.g. Courier) to make sense of it.

All comments, as ever, gratefully received:

I have added some info in brackets that I have found from other sources,
particularly the Sander connection which lead to the Twysdens. While I
"know" from other sources that Eleanor Hoo married James Carew (of
Beddington), I do not know that she was the daughter of Thomas Lord Hoo.

I have absolutely no confirmation of the marriage of a Bourchier
daughter with Thomas Bryan the father of Elizabeth Bryan.

For those who are interested, the original document gave the blazons of
the arms of the various wives including those whose names were not given
at all.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@southfrm.demon.co.uk
For a patchwork of bygones: www.southfrm.demon.co.uk

Sutliff

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Jul 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/26/99

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Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

> I have come across an entry in Miscellanea Genealogica and Heraldica
> VIII, part V pp 133-5, March 1933. This was by J R Twisden about an
> ornamental Pedigree of 1679 prepared for Sir Wm Twysden probably by
> someone in the College of Arms (that usually reliable source :-) ).
>

> <snip>

>
> All comments, as ever, gratefully received:
>

> <snip>

I want to comment on just part of this. Thomas, Lord Hoo (d. 13 Feb 1454/55)
was married twice (1) Elizabeth Wychingham and (2) Eleanor Welles. From the
first marriage was the daughter Anne who married Geoffrey Boleyn and was
great-grandmother of the ill-fated queen. From the second marriage was
another Anne (wife of Sir Roger Copley), Eleanor (wife of Thomas Echingham
and James Carew) and Elizabeth (wife of Thomas Massingberd and Sir John
Devenish). CP VI:565 states that Eleanor was said to be married to Thomas
Echingham, so that marriage would seem uncertain.

As your email address suggests a UK origin, you might not have access to
_Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists_ by David Faris,
Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1996 (a second edition of this work
is due out anytime now). P. 158-61 [Launce] confirms the Bourchier descent:

Thomas of Woodstock
\
Anne of Gloucester - William Bourchier
\
John Bourchier - Margery Berners
\
Humphrey Bourchier - Elizabeth Tilney
\
Margaret Bourchier - Thomas Bryan
\
Elizabeth Bryan - Nicholas Carew

Hope this helps.

Henry Sutliff

ED MANN

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Jul 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/26/99

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Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
>
> I have come across an entry in Miscellanea Genealogica and Heraldica
> VIII, part V pp 133-5, March 1933. This was by J R Twisden about an
> ornamental Pedigree of 1679 prepared for Sir Wm Twysden probably by
> someone in the College of Arms (that usually reliable source :-) ).
>

> I have found various reports that confirm some of this but I have not
> seen confirmation of it all.
>
> One real problem is that the author did not give the names of the wives,
> just their coats of arms. (Wm Twysden was undoubtedly trying to show
> connections with the Great and the Good and women, queens apart, were
> not counted...)
>
> I am presenting this diagramatically as that it how it was devised; I do
> not think any listing would communicate the links. You'll need to put
> it in a fixed font (e.g. Courier) to make sense of it.
>

> All comments, as ever, gratefully received:
>

I'll tackle this in bits. First the descent from Edward III:

Descendants of Edward III of England

1 Edward III of England 1312 - 1377 ref #: F229:12
+Philippa de Hainault 1311 - 1369 ref #: Ä103-34
2 Thomas Plantagenet 1354/55 - 1397 aka: Duke of Gloucester ref #:
F158:9
+Alianore de Bohun 1366 - 1399 ref #: W18-8
3 Anne Plantagenet 1383 - 1438 aka: Countess of Buckingham ref #:
F159:8
+Thomas de Stafford 1368 - 1392 aka: 3d Earl of Stafford ref #:
BxP:499
*2nd Husband of Anne Plantagenet:
+Edmund de Stafford 1377/78 - 1403 aka: 5th Earl of Stafford ref #:
F7:10
4 Humphrey Stafford 1402 - 1460 aka: 6th Earl of Stafford / 1st Duke
of Buckingham ref #: F7:9
+Anne Neville 1411 - 1480 ref #: F15:11ivg
*3rd Husband of Anne Plantagenet:
+William Bourchier - 1420 aka: Earl of Ewe ref #: Ä155A-32
4 John Bourchier - 1474 aka: Lord Berners ref #: F159:7
+Margery Berners - 1475
5 Humphrey Bourchier - 1471 ref #: F159:6
+Elizabeth Tilney - 1497 ref #: Ä136-34
6 Margaret Bourchier 1468 - 1552 ref #: F160:5
+Thomas Bryan 1470 - aka: Knt. ref #: (F160:5)
7 Elizabeth Bryan ref #: F160:4
+Nicholas Carew - 1539/40 ref #: F50:5i
8 Mary Carew ref #: F160:3
+Arthur Darcy 1505 - 1561 ref #: F80:6i
8 Isabel Carew ref #: F21:3
+Nicholas Saunders

Note that only one daughter of Thomas of Woodstock married both William
Bourchier and Edmund Stafford.

Next, the Welles descent:

Descendants of John de Welles

1 John de Welles 1352 - 1421
+Alianor de Mowbray 1363/64 - 1417
2 Eudo de Welles - 1421
+Maud de Greystoke
3 Lionel de Welles 1406 - 1461
+Joan de Waterton - 1434
4 Alainor de Welles
+Thomas Hoo 1400 - 1454/55
5 Alianor Hoo 1449 -
+James Carew - 1493
6 Richard Carew 1469 - 1520
+Malyn Oxenbridge - 1544
7 Nicholas Carew - 1539/40
+Elizabeth Bryan
*2nd Husband of Alianor Hoo:
+Thomas Echingham
*2nd Wife of Lionel de Welles:
+Margaret de Beauchamp 1412 - 1482

Note that Alainor Hoo was the daughter who m. both James Carew and
Thomas Etchingham. Also, note no Welles line to Anne Boleyn, not this
way, at least.

Finally, the Hoo descent:

Descendants of Thomas Hoo

1 Thomas Hoo
+Eleanor de Felton ref #: W137A-7
2 Thomas Hoo 1400 - 1454/55 aka: 1st Baron Hoo ref #: W137A-8
+Elizabeth de Echingham aka: Elizabeth Echingham ref #: (BxP:283)
3 Anne Hoo 1424 - 1484 ref #: W137A-9
+Geoffrey Boleyn - 1463 aka: Lord Mayor of London, 1457 ref #:
BxP:58
4 William Boleyn - 1505 ref #: W137A-10
+Margaret Butler 1465 - 1539 ref #: F46:5
5 Thomas Boleyn 1477 - 1538/39 aka: Viscount Rochford ref #: F47:4
+Elizabeth Howard - 1538 ref #: F198:6ii
6 George Boleyn - 1536 aka: Viscount Rochford ref #: BxP:59
6 Mary Boleyn 1502 - 1543 ref #: F47:4i
+William Cary 1495 - 1528 ref #: F54:3
6 Anne Boleyn 1507 - 1536
+Henry VIII of England 1491 - 1546/47 ref #: BxP:541
7 Elizabeth I of England 1533 - 1602/03
*2nd Wife of Thomas Hoo:
+Alainor de Welles ref #: F278:6
3 Alianor Hoo 1449 - ref #: F50:6
+James Carew - 1493
4 Richard Carew 1469 - 1520 ref #: F50:5
+Malyn Oxenbridge - 1544
5 Nicholas Carew - 1539/40 ref #: F50:5i
+Elizabeth Bryan ref #: F160:4
*2nd Husband of Alianor Hoo:
+Thomas Echingham

Note that Anne Hoo who m. Geoffrey Boleyn was by the 1st wife, Elizabeth
de Echingham.

--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.

Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com

References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
FMS = Stewart, _Forgotten_Monarchy_of_Scotland_, [page].
NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
Œ = Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
[page].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]

Sutliff

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Jul 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/26/99

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ED MANN wrote:

> <snip>

>
> Finally, the Hoo descent:
>
> Descendants of Thomas Hoo
>
> 1 Thomas Hoo
> +Eleanor de Felton ref #: W137A-7
> 2 Thomas Hoo 1400 - 1454/55 aka: 1st Baron Hoo ref #: W137A-8
> +Elizabeth de Echingham aka: Elizabeth Echingham ref #: (BxP:283)
> 3 Anne Hoo 1424 - 1484 ref #: W137A-9
> +Geoffrey Boleyn - 1463 aka: Lord Mayor of London, 1457 ref #:
> BxP:58

<snip>

CP VI:564 states that the wife of Thomas Hoo and mother of Anne, wife of Geoffrey Boleyn was
Elizabeth, daughter of Nicholas Wychingham of Wychingham, Norfolk. Footnotes of confirmation on this
page include transferral of property. It would seem BXP is apparently mistaking the possible
marriage of Anne's half-sister Eleanor toThomas Echingham. CP VI:565 (note g) mentions a 1468 suit
brought by Anne Boleyn, Roger Copley and Anne his wife, James Carew and Eleanor his wife and
Elizabeth Hoo against Thomas Echingham for the manor of Ockley as heirs of Nicholas Malmayns and
Alice.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

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Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99

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In message <379C889F...@earthlink.net>
ss...@earthlink.net (Sutliff) wrote:

>
>
> Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
>
> > I have come across an entry in Miscellanea Genealogica and Heraldica
> > VIII, part V pp 133-5, March 1933. This was by J R Twisden about an
> > ornamental Pedigree of 1679 prepared for Sir Wm Twysden probably by
> > someone in the College of Arms (that usually reliable source :-) ).
> >

> > <snip>

> >
> > All comments, as ever, gratefully received:
> >

> > <snip>
>
> I want to comment on just part of this. Thomas, Lord Hoo (d. 13 Feb 1454/55)
> was married twice (1) Elizabeth Wychingham and (2) Eleanor Welles. From the
> first marriage was the daughter Anne who married Geoffrey Boleyn and was
> great-grandmother of the ill-fated queen. From the second marriage was
> another Anne (wife of Sir Roger Copley),

On the original report it lists a "Jane wife of Copely" that I left out
for unclarity. CP refers to her also as "Mary" so it sounds like the
Twysdens had it wrong, she wasn't Jane.

> Eleanor (wife of Thomas Echingham
> and James Carew) and Elizabeth (wife of Thomas Massingberd and Sir John
> Devenish). CP VI:565 states that Eleanor was said to be married to Thomas
> Echingham, so that marriage would seem uncertain.
>
> As your email address suggests a UK origin,

very true.

> you might not have access to
> _Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists_ by David Faris,
> Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1996 (a second edition of this work
> is due out anytime now). P. 158-61 [Launce] confirms the Bourchier descent:
>
> Thomas of Woodstock
> \
> Anne of Gloucester - William Bourchier
> \
> John Bourchier - Margery Berners
> \
> Humphrey Bourchier - Elizabeth Tilney
> \
> Margaret Bourchier - Thomas Bryan
> \
> Elizabeth Bryan - Nicholas Carew
>

> Hope this helps.
>
> Henry Sutliff
>

Many thanks for this clarification of this ancient document.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

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Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99

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In message <379D1733...@mail2.lcia.com>
EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM (ED MANN) wrote:

> Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> >
> > <Big Snip>

> >
>
> I'll tackle this in bits. First the descent from Edward III:
>
> Descendants of Edward III of England
>

> <Another snip>

>
> Next, the Welles descent:
>
> Descendants of John de Welles
>
> 1 John de Welles 1352 - 1421
> +Alianor de Mowbray 1363/64 - 1417
> 2 Eudo de Welles - 1421
> +Maud de Greystoke
> 3 Lionel de Welles 1406 - 1461
> +Joan de Waterton - 1434
> 4 Alainor de Welles
> +Thomas Hoo 1400 - 1454/55
> 5 Alianor Hoo 1449 -
> +James Carew - 1493
> 6 Richard Carew 1469 - 1520
> +Malyn Oxenbridge - 1544
> 7 Nicholas Carew - 1539/40
> +Elizabeth Bryan
> *2nd Husband of Alianor Hoo:
> +Thomas Echingham
> *2nd Wife of Lionel de Welles:
> +Margaret de Beauchamp 1412 - 1482

Presumably this is the same Margaret Beauchamp who also married Oliver
St John and John Beaufort and by the latter marriage became the
grandmother of H VII?

One report (Friends of Lydiard Tregoze) has it that Margaret Beauchamp
and Lionel de Wells had a son John who married Cecily Plantagenet. Did
John dsp? Sounds like he did as Lionel's daughters are referred to as
co-heirs.

>
> Note that Alainor Hoo was the daughter who m. both James Carew and
> Thomas Etchingham. Also, note no Welles line to Anne Boleyn, not this
> way, at least.
>
> Finally, the Hoo descent:
>
> Descendants of Thomas Hoo
>
> 1 Thomas Hoo
> +Eleanor de Felton ref #: W137A-7
> 2 Thomas Hoo 1400 - 1454/55 aka: 1st Baron Hoo ref #: W137A-8
> +Elizabeth de Echingham aka: Elizabeth Echingham ref #: (BxP:283)
> 3 Anne Hoo 1424 - 1484 ref #: W137A-9
> +Geoffrey Boleyn - 1463 aka: Lord Mayor of London, 1457 ref #:
> BxP:58
> 4 William Boleyn - 1505 ref #: W137A-10
> +Margaret Butler 1465 - 1539 ref #: F46:5
> 5 Thomas Boleyn 1477 - 1538/39 aka: Viscount Rochford ref #: F47:4
> +Elizabeth Howard - 1538 ref #: F198:6ii
> 6 George Boleyn - 1536 aka: Viscount Rochford ref #: BxP:59
> 6 Mary Boleyn 1502 - 1543 ref #: F47:4i
> +William Cary 1495 - 1528 ref #: F54:3

The original report had a "Henry Cary" written on it. I left him out
because I could not see where he came it. Now I know! But I have also
seen in CP a strong suggestion that H VIII was in fact Henry Cary's
father and so that he and Q Liz were half-siblings.

> 6 Anne Boleyn 1507 - 1536
> +Henry VIII of England 1491 - 1546/47 ref #: BxP:541
> 7 Elizabeth I of England 1533 - 1602/03
> *2nd Wife of Thomas Hoo:
> +Alainor de Welles ref #: F278:6
> 3 Alianor Hoo 1449 - ref #: F50:6
> +James Carew - 1493
> 4 Richard Carew 1469 - 1520 ref #: F50:5
> +Malyn Oxenbridge - 1544
> 5 Nicholas Carew - 1539/40 ref #: F50:5i
> +Elizabeth Bryan ref #: F160:4
> *2nd Husband of Alianor Hoo:
> +Thomas Echingham
>
> Note that Anne Hoo who m. Geoffrey Boleyn was by the 1st wife, Elizabeth
> de Echingham.
>

And many thanks for all this; it makes very good sense of this ancient
report.

ED MANN

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Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99

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Yes.

> One report (Friends of Lydiard Tregoze) has it that Margaret Beauchamp
> and Lionel de Wells had a son John who married Cecily Plantagenet. Did
> John dsp? Sounds like he did as Lionel's daughters are referred to as
> co-heirs.

Two daughters who d. young. See BxP:573 and BRF:138.

flc...@my-deja.com

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Aug 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/2/99

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In article <37A24A4E...@mail2.lcia.com>,

EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM (ED MANN) wrote:
> Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> >
> > In message <379D1733...@mail2.lcia.com>
> > EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM (ED MANN) wrote:
> >
> > > Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> > > >
> > > > <Big Snip>
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'll tackle this in bits. First the descent from Edward III:
> > >
> > > Descendants of Edward III of England
> > >
> > > <Another snip>
> > >
> > > Next, the Welles descent:
> > >
> > > Descendants of John de Welles
> > >
> > > 1 John de Welles 1352 - 1421
> > > +Alianor de Mowbray 1363/64 - 1417
> > > 2 Eudo de Welles - 1421
> > > +Maud de Greystoke
> > > 3 Lionel de Welles 1406 - 1461
> > > +Joan de Waterton - 1434
> > > 4 Alainor de Welles
> > > +Thomas Hoo 1400 - 1454/55
> > > 5 Alianor Hoo 1449 -
> > > +James Carew - 1493
> > >

Did Alainor de Welles m2nd Sir James Lawrence and m3rd Hugh Hastings as
some web sites show?

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

ED MANN

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Aug 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/2/99

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Faris says so. See F278:6.