Peter (George) Talbott, Immigrant
Adam Hunley
I am interested in the ancestry of late 18th century immigrant Peter
(George) Talbot (1654-1704), of Carr Hall, Lancashire, and Massachusetts.
RD600 gives a descent from Aethelred II, however I have pieced together from
secondary sources the following Carolingian descent. I am seeking comments
and corrections to the following ahnentafel. Thanks!
1. Peter (George) Talbott
2. George Talbott
4. Edward Talbott
17. Dorothy Braddyll
34. Edward Braddyll
68. John Braddyll
136. Edward Braddyll
272. John Braddyll
544. Margaret Harington
1088. Sir William Harington (d.1440)
2176. Sir Nicholas Harington (d.1403)
4352. Sir John Harington
8704. Sir John Harington (d.1347)
17408. Agnes Cansfield (d.1293)
34816. Eleanor le Fleming
79632. William le Fleming
159265. Agatha FitzHervey
318530. Henry FitzHervey, of Ravenswath
637060. Hervey FitzAkaris
1274120. Akaris FitzBardolph
2548240. Bardolph, Lord of Ravenswath
5096480. Eudes, Comte de Penthievre, Co-regent of Bretagne
10192960. Geoffrey I, Duc de Bretagne
20385921. Ermengarde d'Anjou
40771843. Adelais de Vermandois
81543686. Robert de Vermandois, Comte de Meaux et Troyes, 4th great-grandson
in the direct male line from Charlemagne.
Sources:
Generations 1-16: RD600, Gary Boyd Roberts
Generations 17-26: Genealogics.org (cites the following:
Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who came to America bef.1700,
7th Edition, 1992, Weis, Frederick Lewis
A Genealogical History of the dormant, abeyant, forfeited and extinct
peerages of the British Empire, London, 1866, Burke, Sir Bernard)
M.Sjostrom
an excerpt from fictional literature:
".... I showed her the Swedish bible in the cupboard, and she wanted to copy a few example passages. Saying she will use them in her coming essay project.
However, before she started make her notes, she inquired about a handsome-looking document she had seen next to the book.
I took the decorative paper for a look and remembered what Gramma had told. It was in transparent folio, with a note in Gramma's sharp handwriting: ”my membership in the Pure-Bred Pompous Arses of America”.
- My grandmother occasionally joked that she is a pedigreed member of The Pompous Asses, I replied with a snigger.
- It was some part of her genealogical work. We have still lots of her notes and papers about those researches.
Barbro started to read:
- ”Order of the Crown of Charlemagne in the United States of America
be it known that
Josephine Christine Seward Kitt
has rendered satisfactory proof of her unbroken lineage of descent from Charlemagne, Emperor of the West ...”
- It is dated in 1984, there are two signatures. Registrar General and President General, I read.
- I don't catch what reads in the first signature though it seems genuine and original, but isn't the latter signature something like Howard Laverne Hamilton, is it?
- Yep, looks as it is the name of the Prez of theirs.
Barbro took a long look at me. And asked if the /Karl den store/ descendant in the certificate really was my grandmother. I just nodded, after which she mumbled something about noble blood. I think she was watching me with a yet more possessive way..."
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 7/15/2008 8:25:27 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
yelnu...@gmail.com writes:
272. John Braddyll
544. Margaret Harington
1088. Sir William Harington (d.1440)>>
--------------------------------------------------------------
What is the source that goes from here... to here? And does that source
cite it's own sources?
Thanks
Will Johnson
**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
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Matthew Connolly
[snip]
> 17. Dorothy Braddyll
> 34. Edward Braddyll
> 68. John Braddyll
> 136. Edward Braddyll
> 272. John Braddyll
> 544. Margaret Harington
> 1088. Sir William Harington (d.1440)
Some pedigrees give Margaret Harrington as mother of John Braddyll,
but others say she d.s.p. and John's mother was Richard Braddyll's
second wife, Joan. I think that might be based on visitations, it
looks like some primary evidence would be welcome here.
I can see a possible bypass between the same points in the above line,
which might obviate the problem; it's only from secondary sources, so
will require further investigation to support or refute it:
Sir William Harrington of Hornby KG d.1440=Margaret Nevill
Agnes Harrington=Sir Alexander Radcliffe of Ordsall d.1475
Isabella Radcliffe=James Harrington of Old Hall
Katherine Harrington=Roger Hulton of Hulton dcd.1501
Adam Hulton of Hulton fl.1530=Alice Hulton of Farnworth (disp. 1489)
Eleanor Hulton=Ralph Ashton (Assheton)
Ralph Ashton fl.1553=Margaret Orrell
Anne Ashton d.1586=Edward Braddyll d.1607
Dorothy Braddyll=John Talbot of Carr
[The Harrington/Hulton marriage is given in Hulton pedigrees, but I
don't know if Harrington sources agree.]
wjhonson
wrote:
> Sir William Harrington of Hornby KG d.1440=Margaret Nevill
> Agnes Harrington=Sir Alexander Radcliffe of Ordsall d.1475
> Isabella Radcliffe=James Harrington of Old Hall
> Katherine Harrington=Roger Hulton of Hulton dcd.1501
> Adam Hulton of Hulton fl.1530=Alice Hulton of Farnworth (disp. 1489)
> Eleanor Hulton=Ralph Ashton (Assheton)
> Ralph Ashton fl.1553=Margaret Orrell
> Anne Ashton d.1586=Edward Braddyll d.1607
>
> [The Harrington/Hulton marriage is given in Hulton pedigrees, but I
> don't know if Harrington sources agree.]
The placement of Katherine (Harrington) Hulton is I believe just one
guess trying to put her somewhere. Her father is usually called
"James of Wolfedge" and she his heiress. So those details need to be
ironed out before she can be put here.
Will Johnson
TJ Booth
Sir James Harrington's will is dated 30 Apr 1493, his bequests including 'To Robert Hulton a mess' [messuage] in Brixleworth aforesaid, in the holding of Richard Skynner.' Sir James' IPM in 1498/99 identifies his daus by first name, and that all were age 20 and more. It was apparently Margaret (not Katherine) who m. Robert Hulton, and she is indicated to have later m. Thomas Pilkington, the source for this being 'Vincent's MSS' in the College of Arms - apparently a Harrington pedigree.
The IPM of Isabella Radclyffe Harrington, who d. 29 Jun 1518, lists her daus if then alive or next of kin if not. No Margaret is shown, nor is any Hulton mentioned, indicating Margaret had d. by that date and there were no male heirs or a surviving spouse for Margaret. Katherine is identified as 'wife of William Mirfield' in her mother's will, as is also shown by Vincent.
Since it was apparently Margaret (not Katherine) who m. Robert (not Roger) Hulton per these sources, there is reason to doubt the details in the quoted Hulton pedigree. It is also troubling there was no Hulton shown as next of kin in the Isabella Harrington IPM since the Hulton pedigree indicates Adam Hulton was living in 1530.
A summary of the above documents is found in 'A History of the Chantries Within the County Palatine of Lancaster'; Francis Robert Raines, Chetham Society; 1862; Vol. I pages 127-128 (section on Chantry of Blackrode). The link (inactive in deference to Will's preference) is books.google.com/books?id=WAEsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA127.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Will Johnson
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TJ Booth
Roger Ashawe m. Jane Hulton, dau & sole heir of Christopher Hulton of Farnworth. As noted previously, Christopher Hulton's wife was Margaret Harington, one of Sir James' numerous daus. Langton's accompanying discussion to the pedigree indicates the following relationships and chronology :
Christopher Hulton of Farnworth m. Margaret Harington. Christopher d. before his wife, who then m (2) Thomas Pilkington. Margaret Pilkington d. bef 19 Jan 1517, thus preceding her mother and explaining why she is not mentioned in her mother's IPM (instead, Margaret's heir 'Johane wife of Roger Ashawe' is identified - in agreement with the Ashawe pedigree). Since a later Margaret Harington (dau of Sir Richard and Eliz Bradshaw) also m. a Thomas Pilkington, the 2 Margarets are sometimes confused.
Roger (or Robert) Hulton of Hulton m. Katherine Harrington, he dying by 1501, with Adam identified by Langton (source unclear) as the oldest son of Roger (Robert). Katherine then m (2). William Mirfield, and is identified as Mirfield's wife in her mother's 1519 IPM. William Mirfield dsp 20 Dec 1520, and his widow remarried Sir Thomas Borough, was widowed again in 1537 and fl 1550 (see Joseph H Turner's 'Yorkshire Notes and Queries' @ books.google.com/books?id=8PQvAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA9-PA115).
The prior post noted that Sir James Harington made a bequest to 'Robert' (not 'Roger') Hulton in his will. Given the difficulties in deciphering/transcribing wills, it is not inconceivable Sir James had written 'Roger' but it was later deciphered as 'Robert'.
Terry Booth
Chicago, IL
Adam Hunley
>From TJ Booth's latest post, it would seem that Katherine Harrington was the
daughter of James & Isabel (Radcliffe) Harrington. I have discovered some
further secondary evidence online. It's fairly lengthy, but I am including
it below.
The reference for the following information is:
'Townships: Little, Middle and Over Hulton', A History of the County of
Lancaster: Volume 5 (1911), pp. 25-34. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=52994.
I am including the pertinent text, as well as the accompanying footnotes.
<<<start>>>
Adam's son and heir Roger married Ellen daughter of John Hulton of
Farnworth. (fn.
35<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=52994#n35>)
Their son Roger (fn.
36<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=52994#n36>)
had a son and successor, also Roger, who married Katherine, a daughter and
co-heir of Sir James Harrington of Wolfage, (fn.
37<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=52994#n37>)
and had a son Adam, who married Alice, the daughter and heir of John Hulton
of Farnworth. (fn.
38<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=52994#n38>)
>From this time, and perhaps partly in consequence of the marriages named,
the Hultons of the Park became more prominent, and soon outstripped their
namesakes of Farnworth. Adam Hulton was in 1523 summoned to take part in the
Scottish expedition led by the Earl of Surrey. (fn.
39<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=52994#n39>)
Ten years later a short pedigree was recorded at the herald's visitation. (fn.
40 <http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=52994#n40>)
Footnotes:
35 Ellen daughter of John Hulton and 'lately wife' of Roger Hulton of the
Park, had lands in Nether Darwen, Bolton, and Rivington in 1459 (3 June 37
Hen. VI); ibid. 12. In 1432 a settlement of boundaries was made between the
lands of Sir Geoffrey Massey and those of Roger Hulton in Hulton and James
Hulton in Rumworth; *Dep. Keeper's Rep*. xxiii, App. 33. In 1437 Roger
Hulton of the Park agreed with Thomas Tyldesley for the marriage of his
daughter Alice with James son and heir apparent of Thomas; and in 1459 (17
Aug. 37 Hen. VI) Alice widow of James Tyldesley granted certain lands to
Roger Hulton her father, Roger Hulton her brother, and Thurstan
Tyldesley; *Hulton
Ped*. 11–12. The last deed is perhaps dated 37 Hen. VI instead of 36 in
error; in which case Roger Hulton, senior, died between 17 Aug. 1458 and 3
June 1459.
36 From a deed quoted in the last note it is clear that Roger Hulton had a
son Roger, perhaps the Roger Hulton who in 1458–9 arranged for the marriage
of his daughter Agnes to Richard son of William Heaton; ibid. 14. Roger son
and heir apparent of Roger Hulton of the Park was a trustee for Thomas
Tyldesley in 1465; Yates Evidences.
37 *Hulton Ped*. 14. A dispensation for the marriage of Roger Hulton and
Katherine Harrington, related in the fourth degree, was granted by Paul II,
and issued by the Bishop of Lichfield in Aug. 1469; Lich. Epis. Reg. xii,
fol. 149*b*. In 1500 Katherine, widow of Roger Hulton, had her dower in
Denton.
In 1473 Roger Hulton held the manor of Middlewood in Hulton of the lord of
Manchester by the twentieth part of a knight's fee and puture, a rent of 4*d
*. and castleward 7*d.; Mamecestre*, 497.
38 *Hulton Ped*. 15. The contract of marriage, made 20 Oct. 1485, shows that
Roger, Adam's grandfather, was still living; the father is described as
Roger Hulton the younger of Hulton Park, and the mother Katherine is named.
Adam was to be ready to wed Alice within ten years from the date of the
contract; Roger promised to make an estate of 10 marks a year clear value in
favour of Alice, and John Hulton would pay 80 marks to the parents of Adam.
The parties being related in the fourth degree through the marriage of Roger
and Ellen Hulton above recorded, a dispensation was obtained from John de
Giglis, papal commissary in England, in 1489, a competent donation being
made to the crusade; ibid. 16.
39 Ibid. 16; Adam Hulton had engaged to provide forty able men for the
expedition.
40 *Visit*, of 1533 (Chet. Soc), 209; three descents are recorded—Adam, his
son William, and his grandson Adam, with a record of the marriages and the
younger children.
Adam Hulton, squire, contributed to the subsidy of 1541 as for '£30 in
lands'; *Misc*. (Rec. Soc. Lancs. and Ches.), i, 141.
<<<<end>>>>
I would appreciate any information anyone might have on the ancestry of
these Hultons and Harringtons, including royal lines.
Thanks again,
Adam
Matthew Connolly
[snip]
> I would appreciate any information anyone might have on the ancestry of
> these Hultons and Harringtons, including royal lines.
Hello Adam,
I can throw another possibility at you, although again it will need
careful examination at particular links:
King Henry I d.1135
Robert, Earl of Gloucester d.1147
Maud d.1189=Ranulf, Earl of Chester d.1153
Hugh, Earl of Chester d.1181
Amice=Ralph de Mainwaring
Bertrade=Henry de Audley d.1246
Emma=Gruffudd Maelor II of North Powys d.1269
Margery=Sir John de Arderne d.1308
Sir John de Arderne d.1349
Maud=Robert de Legh d.1382
Agnes=Roger de Hulton dcd. 1411
Adam Hulton fl.1417
Roger (m. Ellen Hulton, you have the pedigree from here)
Whether the given Hulton pedigree is reliable is again the big
question here; followed by the placement of Agnes as daughter of that
Robert de Legh.