William Gardiner and Helen Tudor
Lockehead
Who was the husband of Helen Tudor, the illegitimate daughter of
Jasper Tudor? Was it William Gardiner or John Gardiner? I see sources
that say Helen Tudor and William Gardiner were the parents of Cardinal
Stephen Gardiner and others that say John Gardiner and Helen Tudor
were his parents.
d_se...@verizon.net
> O.K.- I am on a roll: two questions in one day.
>
> that say HelenTudorand William Gardiner were the parents of Cardinal
> Stephen Gardiner and others that say John Gardiner and HelenTudor
> were his parents.
I'm sorry not to be able to answer your question, but I have seen a
number of references to the fact that Jasper Tudor had TWO
illegitimate daughters - Helen and JOAN. Are you or the Group familiar
with this at all?
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 8/23/2007 10:10:26 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
d_se...@verizon.net writes:
I'm sorry not to be able to answer your question, but I have seen a
number of references to the fact that Jasper Tudor had TWO
illegitimate daughters - Helen and JOAN. Are you or the Group familiar
with this at all?
---------------
Here is some background
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasper_Tudor,_1st_Duke_of_Bedford_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasper_Tudor,_1st_Duke_of_Bedford)
Note that this article is *unsourced* and should be treated that way.
Will Johnson
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
WJhonson
That is why it's always safest to approach Wikipedia with skepticism and ask for sources where none are apparent. Wanton belief in those articles is no different from wanton belief in any unsourced statements. Historians who cannot back up their statements should be discarded by the wayside.
Internet sites have the added disability that they are easy to make and change. Probably few people read a site on Jasper Tudor and fewer still have the apparatus to spot errors. But we all can tag a "fact" with the {{fact}} tag thereby forcing the editors to justify their statements. When they aren't justified after a sufficient space of time, we, as editor, can remove the offending statement entirely.
That's what I did to the Wikipedia article on Godiva which had stated died 1067, (died 1067 indeed....)
Will
In a message dated 08/23/07 13:10:49 Pacific Standard Time, d_se...@verizon.net writes:
In the case of the reference to Joan Tudor, you can see that the contributor who made that entry also made numerous other entries mainly of an historical nature. The contributor would appear to be an historian.
Lockehead
> In a message dated 8/23/2007 10:10:26 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>
>
> I'm sorry not to be able to answer your question, but I have seen a
> number of references to the fact that Jasper Tudor had TWO
> illegitimate daughters - Helen and JOAN. Are you or the Group familiar
> with this at all?
>
> ---------------
> Here is some background
> _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasper_Tudor,_1st_Duke_of_Bedford_
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasper_Tudor,_1st_Duke_of_Bedford)
>
> Note that this article is *unsourced* and should be treated that way.
>
> Will Johnson
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL athttp://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Thank you for responding. We descend through the Gardiners. I am
really trying to find out whether it is William or John Gardiner who
married Helen Tudor.Working backward, I had never uncovered any other
link in my line to Jasper Tudor, except through his daughter, Helen.
Is your thought that William Gardiner married Helen and John Gardiner
married Joan?
WJhonson
Is your thought that William Gardiner married Helen and John Gardiner
married Joan? >>
It would be best if you uncovered some source, cited and quoted it.
Then we'd have a basis from which to work.
Will
Lockehead
> <<In a message dated 08/27/07 19:00:16 Pacific Standard Time, franklo...@mris.com writes:
> Is your thought that William Gardiner married Helen and John Gardiner
> married Joan? >>
> ------------------------------------------
> It would be best if you uncovered some source, cited and quoted it.
>
> Then we'd have a basis from which to work.
>
> Will
yes, it would be best, wouldn't it? :
All of my information (for the most part) comes from "Gardiner:
Generations and Relations" by Thomas Richard Gardiner, self-published
1991. Here is what he has to say:
"Wyllyam Gardynyr, son of (father unknown) and of (mother unknown),
born in 1450 in Midlands, Oxfordshire, England; died 1495 in The Bank,
Surrey, England. He married in 1485, in London, England to Helen
Tudor, daughter of Jasper Tudor. William Gardiner, who was born circa
1450, married Helen Tudor, first cousin to Henry VII, as found on
Betham's Genealogical Table DCX in Guildhall Library, London, England.
William Gardiner and his wife, Helen Tudor, resided on the south bank
of the Thames River just accross from the walled city of London, prior
to the establishment of any town, in an area that was then known
simply as "The Bank". His magnificent home was located somewhere
between the more recent towns of Bermondey and Southwalk in the county
of Surrey. He also retained many of his holdings in the Midlands near
Oxon Ford, now known as Oxford.
Children of Wyllyam and Heln (Tudor) Gardynyr were as follows:
2. i. Richard Gardiner, born 1486 in London, England; died 1548 in
London, England. This Richard Gardiner may have been the eldest son of
William Gardiner and Helen Tudor. There is no document to prove this
assumption. He may have also been the father of Germain Gardiner (b.
1505) and also of Richard (b. 1507) Sargeant at Arms to Henry VIII,
who was reported to have been executed for alloegedly witholding
testimony in the trial of Anne Bolyn. Since I am unable to identifyn
this person more fully, I have not included him and his two sons to
definitely be in the line of descent from William Gardiner and Helen
Tudor, although in the book, STEPHEN GARDINER AND THE TUDOR REACTION,
the author mentions Germain as the nephew of Stephen. In another bit
of information on Germain, he was spoken of as a cousin of Stephen, so
the exact identity of these three individuals are not clear.
+3. ii. William Gardiner, born 1488
4. iii. Steven Gardiner, born 1490 in Holborn, London, England; died
12 Nov 1555 in Whitehall, Southwark, Surrey, England. See a special
section on this Steven Gardiner. Steven has sometimes been named as
the son of John Gardiner of Bury St. Edmunds, England but there are
several things that do not fit into place on this Stephen. First of
all his first name is spelled differently. The Letters and Papers of
Henry VIII, in the manuscript section of the British Museum use the
spelling "Steven Gardynyr" just the way Steven signed his name. The
man who spelled his name Stephen was almost out of the time frame in
which "Steven" was estimated by historians to have been born. But, the
greatest bit of evidence supporting "Steven" vs. "Stephen" as the
Bishop of Winchester, is James Betham's Genealogical Table, DCX (610)
in the Guildhall Library, London, which gives Steven's parents as
William Gardiner and Helen Tudor. Although the Gardiner family name
has undergone a number of changes down through the ages, as have all
other families, the name is being carried in the computer as Gardiner,
to reduce the possibility of error in the programing of an ancestral
line.
3. WIlliam Gardiner, (Wyllyam), born 1488 in London, Live awhile in
Hertfordshire, England; died 1549 in The Grange, Bermondsey, Surrey,
England. He married 1520, in England to Elizabeth Mitchell. There
seems to be onlya alinited amount of information available on this
William Gardiner, brother of Steven, Bishop of Winchester. It is
believed that he may have been the presbyter at Canterbury whom Steven
Gardiner stopped by to visit on one of his trips back from France
which is mentioned under Steven Gardiner in this book. It was also
brought to the attention of those sitting in judgement at the
Excommunication trial of Steven Gardiner, that he had a brother
William, and this William lived for a while in Herefordshire. William
married Elizabeth Mitchell, of Yorkshire, and died in Bermondsey,
Surrey. It is quite probable that William had an older brother since
it is an Old English custom to name the second son after his father
and the eldest son after the grandfather, which this Gardiner family
has followed with remarkable consistancy down through the generations.
The grandfather could come from either side of the family, as this
was not followed quite as closely as in the use of the father's name.
The was a Richard Gardiner, born about 1486 who was quite prominent in
the London area, who may have been an older member of this family,
which I have listed as a probability since I cna find no other who
would more easily fit the situation. He was listed in the service of
Henry VIII as "Seargent at Arms"."
Lockehead
Another source is a wildly wonderful little book, "Blood Royal from
thr time of Alexander the Great to Queen Elizabeth II" A Golden
Jubilee memoir, 2952-2002 by Charles Mosley published by Smith's
Peerage Limited 2002
page 208:
"2 Jasper Tudor or "of Hatfield" 1st and last Earl of Pembroke 23 Nov
1452X20 Jan 1452/3-8 Sep 1468, 1470-71 and 1485-95 and 1st and last
Duke of Bedford, so cr 27 Oct 1485, KG 1459, PC 1485; b. Hatfield,
herts, c. 1431; ktd 1449; Lancastrian First Battle St. Albans 22 May
1455; defeated by Edward IV Mortimer's Cross 2 or 3 Feb 1460/1 but
escaped; attainted by Edward IV's parl 29 Dec 1461 and again on
Edward's restoration 1471; briefly invaded Wales July 1468 in
Lancastrian's cause, landing with three ships and 50 men near Harlech
Castle but after sacking Denbigh was beaten off and returned to
France; Ch Justice S Wales 1485; Lt Calais and Ld Lt Ireland
(absentee) 1486-94; Earl Marshal 1492; took leading part inb victory
of Stoke 16 Jun 1487 and invasion of France 1492; m 2 Nov 1483x7 Nov
1485 Catherine (m 3rd Sir Richard Wingfield), yst dau of 1st Earl
Rivers and sis of Edward IV's w, also widow of 2nd Duke of Buckingham,
and dsp by her 21 or 26 Dec 1495, when his titles expired, leaving
illegitimately by an unknown woman:
1(a) Helen; m William Gardiner, a Londoner and had:
1b Stephen Gardiner; b c 1483; sec to his cousin Henry VIII 1528-33;
Bp Winchester 1531-51 and 1553-22; Amb France 1535-38; promoted Henry
VIII's marriage to Catherine Howard; incarcerated FLeet Prison 1547-48
and Tower London 1548-53; Ld Chllr 1553-55 (as which called by foreign
diplomats 'prime minister', perhaps the earliest use of the term and
one which by his ascendancy he more or less earned) and Chllr Oxford
and Cambridge Us; author De Vera Obedientia ('On True Obedience')
(1535) and translation of Greek New Testament; d 12 Nov 1555"
