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Sir William Kingston and his wives
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Leo
Sep 8, 2012, 6:56:03 PM9/8/12
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Sir William Kingston ca.1476-1540 married _Anne_ according to HOP, widow of Sir John Guise.
Many years ago John Steele Gordon gave me as her parents William Berkeley, of Stoke Gifford and Anne Stafford.
Douglas Richardson in PA 2004 page 261 has the same parents but shows only one husband Sir John Gyse
Douglas Richardson in PA 2004 page 389 gives Sir John Gyse married to Anne Berkeley with the same parents and as widow she marries before 1502 William Kingston.
Anne Berkely and John Guise/Gyse have a son John who is born about 1485 and who marries in 1510. This makes Sir William KIngston about nine years older than his stepson.
If Anne Berkeley was born about 1470 (giving birth age about 15 ?) my guess is that the unnamed daughter of Sir William Kingston could be by Elizabeth and that Anne Berkeley is the first wife.
Sir William Kingston---x----Anne Berkeley born guess 1470
c.1476-1540
|
NN Kingston
|
Frances Baynham -x-Sir Henry Jerningham born ca.1510
|
Jeronyma Jerningham
born 1550
To me it seems Sir Henry Jerningham (34 years younger than his grand-father-in-law) married a younger wife Frances Baynham born ca.1530 and her mother born guess 1515. If this latter mother was a child of Anne Berkeley then Anne would be about 45 giving birth to this daughter.
Possible? Of course.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
p
Many years ago John Steele Gordon gave me as her parents William Berkeley, of Stoke Gifford and Anne Stafford.
Douglas Richardson in PA 2004 page 261 has the same parents but shows only one husband Sir John Gyse
Douglas Richardson in PA 2004 page 389 gives Sir John Gyse married to Anne Berkeley with the same parents and as widow she marries before 1502 William Kingston.
Anne Berkely and John Guise/Gyse have a son John who is born about 1485 and who marries in 1510. This makes Sir William KIngston about nine years older than his stepson.
If Anne Berkeley was born about 1470 (giving birth age about 15 ?) my guess is that the unnamed daughter of Sir William Kingston could be by Elizabeth and that Anne Berkeley is the first wife.
Sir William Kingston---x----Anne Berkeley born guess 1470
c.1476-1540
|
NN Kingston
|
Frances Baynham -x-Sir Henry Jerningham born ca.1510
|
Jeronyma Jerningham
born 1550
To me it seems Sir Henry Jerningham (34 years younger than his grand-father-in-law) married a younger wife Frances Baynham born ca.1530 and her mother born guess 1515. If this latter mother was a child of Anne Berkeley then Anne would be about 45 giving birth to this daughter.
Possible? Of course.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
p
John Higgins
Sep 8, 2012, 7:31:26 PM9/8/12
to
Thanks for this identification of at least one of the wives of Sir
William Kingston. As to the unnamed daughter of Sir William Kingston
who mar. Sir George Baynham, she is named Bridget in a pedigree of the
Baynham family in Transactions of the Bristol and Gloucestershire
Archaeological Society, 6:185 (1881-2). She is one of two wives of
Sir George, but the pedigree is unspecific as to the order of the
marriages and gives no date for the marriage to Bridget, saying only
that Sir George married his other wife (Cecilia, dau. of Sir John
Gage) based on a settlement dated 15 Nov 1527. I'd guess that Bridget
was the 1st wife, but I can't confirm this.
Sir William Kingston, by one of his two wives, had another daughter
Margaret, who married (by 1518) Sir John St. Loe, whose HOP bio is
here:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/st-loe-sir-john-15001-59
I think Margaret's mother is equally uncertain at this point.
Brad Verity
Sep 8, 2012, 8:46:59 PM9/8/12
to
On Sep 8, 3:19 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Brad:
>
> The HOP bio of Sir William Kingston is uncertain with respect to the
> order of his first two wives and unspecific with regard to the
> maternity (although it seems clear that, for chronological reasons,
> the 3rd wife Mary Scrope cannot be the mother of any of the children).
>
> http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/king...
>
> Do you have any information beyond HOP as to the order of the first
> two wives and which was the mother of his children?
John,
The following National Archives document proves the identity of Anne
Berkeley Guise Kingston:
C1/249/52 Short title: Kyngeston v Honkes. Plaintiffs: William
Kyngeston and Anne, his wife, late the wife of John Gyes, knight,
daughter of William Berkeley, knight. Defendants: Robert Honkes and
Thomas Stafford. Subject: Jointure out of the manor of Aspeleygyse.
Bedfordshire. 1501-1502.
The following A2A document shows Sir William as a feoffee to the
Baynhams in 1528, probably indicating his daughter was married to
George Baynham by that date:
SAS/G21/7 20 May 1528 Christopher Baynham, kt (son and heir of Alice
Denys, late the wife of Thomas Baynham, kt and daughter of William
Walwyn, esq) and his son and heir George Baynham to Henry Guldeford,
kt, John Gage, kt, William Kyngeston, kt, Antony Poyntz, kt, John
Baker, gent, recorder of London, Henry Browne, esq (son and heir of
Matthew Browne, kt), John Guldefrod, esq (son and heir of George
Guldeford, esq), Nicholas Poyntz, esq (son and heir of AP), and Edward
Gage and James Gage (sons of JG). The manors of Abinghall,
Gloucestershire and the capital messuage or site of the manor of
Bickerton in Bickerton, Herefordshire [East Sussex Record Office/
Archive of the Gage family of Firle].
Sir William's bio in HOP says he was married to 3rd wife Mary Scrope
by 1534, but the following National Archives shows he was married to
her earlier, by 1531:
E 328/66 Inddenture of Lease. (1) Sir William Kyngeston kt½, and Dame
Mary, his wife, late wife of Edward Jernegan esq., and John, Earl of
Oxford, Roger Wentworth kt., and Anthony Wyngfeld kt., feoffees to use
of Dame Mary and (2) John Jernegan esq., son and heirof said Edward,
Thomas Lestraunge, Giles Alyngton, Philip Butler kt. and Thomas Jermyn
esq. The Earl, Roger and Anthony demise to parties in (2) the manors
of Somerleyton, and Wathehall, for term of life, in Somerleyton,
Wathehall, Blundeston, Lounde, Heryngflete, Asshby, Olton, Bradwell,
Mutforde, Myche Cove, Lyttyll Cove, Carleton, Hopton and Barneby, co.
Suff., advowsons of chunches of Somerleyton and Bradwell, and the
patronage of the Priory of St. Olaue, manors of Leystofte, Gorleston
and Mutforthe, with the hundreds of Lothynglond and Mutforthe, £54
p.a. 5 tags. 31 March 1531.
This is important because Sir Henry Jerningham's HOP bio says he was
married to Frances Baynham in about 1536, and obviously Sir William
Kingston was the one who arranged the marriage. Also, Tudor Place has
Sir Henry & Frances's eldest son Henry Jerningham born about 1533,
which this earlier marriage date of Sir William & Mary Scrope now
allows for.
It may be possible to get an idea of a birthdate for Frances Baynham.
Per the HOP bio of her uncle Anthony Kingston, "His niece Frances,
wife of Sir Henry Jerningham, was found to be his heir at an
inquisition held on 10 Oct. 1556 and she inherited most of his
estates." I imagine the jurors would've returned an age for her in
that IPM.
Finally, the following A2A document shows Sir William Kingston as
party to a fine involving Lucy Neville Browne in 1528. I wonder if
the Gage, Guildford and/or Browne families are the clue to the
identity of Sir William's wife Elizabeth?
Fine SAS-BA/278 1528 Between WILLIAM KYNGESTON, knt., HENRY
GULDEFORD, knt. and JOHN GAGE, knt., querents, and LUCY BROWNE, widow,
one of the daughters of John, Viscount Mountague, deforciant, of 1/5th
part of 500 marks annual rent in Westminster. Trinity term, 20 Hen.
VIII. [West Sussex Record Office]
Sorry, I don't know which of Sir William's previous wives was the
grandmother of Frances Baynham. Hopefully the above will be of some
help to you.
Cheers, ------Brad
> Brad:
>
> The HOP bio of Sir William Kingston is uncertain with respect to the
> order of his first two wives and unspecific with regard to the
> maternity (although it seems clear that, for chronological reasons,
> the 3rd wife Mary Scrope cannot be the mother of any of the children).
>
> http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/king...
>
> Do you have any information beyond HOP as to the order of the first
> two wives and which was the mother of his children?
John,
The following National Archives document proves the identity of Anne
Berkeley Guise Kingston:
C1/249/52 Short title: Kyngeston v Honkes. Plaintiffs: William
Kyngeston and Anne, his wife, late the wife of John Gyes, knight,
daughter of William Berkeley, knight. Defendants: Robert Honkes and
Thomas Stafford. Subject: Jointure out of the manor of Aspeleygyse.
Bedfordshire. 1501-1502.
The following A2A document shows Sir William as a feoffee to the
Baynhams in 1528, probably indicating his daughter was married to
George Baynham by that date:
SAS/G21/7 20 May 1528 Christopher Baynham, kt (son and heir of Alice
Denys, late the wife of Thomas Baynham, kt and daughter of William
Walwyn, esq) and his son and heir George Baynham to Henry Guldeford,
kt, John Gage, kt, William Kyngeston, kt, Antony Poyntz, kt, John
Baker, gent, recorder of London, Henry Browne, esq (son and heir of
Matthew Browne, kt), John Guldefrod, esq (son and heir of George
Guldeford, esq), Nicholas Poyntz, esq (son and heir of AP), and Edward
Gage and James Gage (sons of JG). The manors of Abinghall,
Gloucestershire and the capital messuage or site of the manor of
Bickerton in Bickerton, Herefordshire [East Sussex Record Office/
Archive of the Gage family of Firle].
Sir William's bio in HOP says he was married to 3rd wife Mary Scrope
by 1534, but the following National Archives shows he was married to
her earlier, by 1531:
E 328/66 Inddenture of Lease. (1) Sir William Kyngeston kt½, and Dame
Mary, his wife, late wife of Edward Jernegan esq., and John, Earl of
Oxford, Roger Wentworth kt., and Anthony Wyngfeld kt., feoffees to use
of Dame Mary and (2) John Jernegan esq., son and heirof said Edward,
Thomas Lestraunge, Giles Alyngton, Philip Butler kt. and Thomas Jermyn
esq. The Earl, Roger and Anthony demise to parties in (2) the manors
of Somerleyton, and Wathehall, for term of life, in Somerleyton,
Wathehall, Blundeston, Lounde, Heryngflete, Asshby, Olton, Bradwell,
Mutforde, Myche Cove, Lyttyll Cove, Carleton, Hopton and Barneby, co.
Suff., advowsons of chunches of Somerleyton and Bradwell, and the
patronage of the Priory of St. Olaue, manors of Leystofte, Gorleston
and Mutforthe, with the hundreds of Lothynglond and Mutforthe, £54
p.a. 5 tags. 31 March 1531.
This is important because Sir Henry Jerningham's HOP bio says he was
married to Frances Baynham in about 1536, and obviously Sir William
Kingston was the one who arranged the marriage. Also, Tudor Place has
Sir Henry & Frances's eldest son Henry Jerningham born about 1533,
which this earlier marriage date of Sir William & Mary Scrope now
allows for.
It may be possible to get an idea of a birthdate for Frances Baynham.
Per the HOP bio of her uncle Anthony Kingston, "His niece Frances,
wife of Sir Henry Jerningham, was found to be his heir at an
inquisition held on 10 Oct. 1556 and she inherited most of his
estates." I imagine the jurors would've returned an age for her in
that IPM.
Finally, the following A2A document shows Sir William Kingston as
party to a fine involving Lucy Neville Browne in 1528. I wonder if
the Gage, Guildford and/or Browne families are the clue to the
identity of Sir William's wife Elizabeth?
Fine SAS-BA/278 1528 Between WILLIAM KYNGESTON, knt., HENRY
GULDEFORD, knt. and JOHN GAGE, knt., querents, and LUCY BROWNE, widow,
one of the daughters of John, Viscount Mountague, deforciant, of 1/5th
part of 500 marks annual rent in Westminster. Trinity term, 20 Hen.
VIII. [West Sussex Record Office]
Sorry, I don't know which of Sir William's previous wives was the
grandmother of Frances Baynham. Hopefully the above will be of some
help to you.
Cheers, ------Brad
Wjhonson
Sep 8, 2012, 8:54:36 PM9/8/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
the William /Kingston/ of co Glouc; Knt 1513; comptroller of the King's household; D
who married Elizabeth Unknown and had the daughter Bridget (Kingston) Baynham
(thank you for this identification I had not had)
In 1520 Sir Richard Wingfield refers to him as "*young* Kingston" (emphasis mine)
His second wife Elizabeth by whom his son Anthony knighted in 1537, she was dead by 1540 when he was on his third wife Mary le Scrope
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who married Elizabeth Unknown and had the daughter Bridget (Kingston) Baynham
(thank you for this identification I had not had)
In 1520 Sir Richard Wingfield refers to him as "*young* Kingston" (emphasis mine)
His second wife Elizabeth by whom his son Anthony knighted in 1537, she was dead by 1540 when he was on his third wife Mary le Scrope
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
Wjhonson
Sep 8, 2012, 8:59:37 PM9/8/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
George was onto his *second* wife by this time, perhaps this is related to that marriage, Cecilia Gage daughter of John Gage of West Firle, by his wife Philippa Guldeford
So the first one of whom you speak below was married, had issue and was buried already.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Sep 8, 2012 5:50 pm
Subject: Re: Sir William Kingston and his wives
So the first one of whom you speak below was married, had issue and was buried already.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Sep 8, 2012 5:50 pm
Subject: Re: Sir William Kingston and his wives
John Higgins
Sep 8, 2012, 11:09:44 PM9/8/12
to
to the Baynhams probably indicates that his daughter's marriage with
Sir George Baynham had occurred by then - but not necessarily that she
was still living. In fact, the date of the settlement of the Baynham/
Gage marriage (15 Nov 1527) suggests that she was dead by 1528.
The families of Gage, Guildford and Browne occur with Sir William
Kingston in both of the 1528 items you've cited. Gage and Guildford
can be explained by Sir George Baynham's 2nd marriage to Cecilia
Gage. I don't immediately know how the Brownes fit into this picture.
Wjhonson
Sep 8, 2012, 11:34:10 PM9/8/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Anthony Browne was married to Alice Gage earlier than this settlement.
John Higgins
Sep 8, 2012, 11:35:25 PM9/8/12
to
>
> I think Margaret's mother is equally uncertain at this point.
>
> -------------------------------
How do you know that Elizabeth, rather than Anne Gyse, was the mother
> I think Margaret's mother is equally uncertain at this point.
>
> -------------------------------
of Bridget and Sir Anthony? (not to mention the 3rd daughter
Margaret) And that she was the 2nd and not the 1st wife of Sir William
Kingston?
Brad has already shown that Sir William Kingston was married to the
third wife Mary Scrope by 1531, so we know that both earlier wives, in
whatever order they occurred, were out of the picture by that time.
We also know, from Sir William's HOP bio, that Anne was probably his
wife in 1517 (without knowing when that marriage occurred).
Wjhonson
Sep 8, 2012, 11:55:56 PM9/8/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On the contrary we do not know that Anne *was* his wife in 1517, only that she was or had been his wife sometime before that 1517 deed. She might have been long dead and he Of Elmore by courtesey as her widower
We know they were married *by* 1502 from the A2A document previously posted in this thread
His DNB biography states that his son Anthony was by his wife Elizabeth
It also states he had a daughter Bridget and we know from the Vis Glouc 1623 that this Bridget as his FIRST wife had seven children off George Baynham BEFORE the 1527 settlement by which he married Cecily Gage. So she could not be likely by any wife other than Anne, and Anne was his first, Anthony is known to have been born in 1519.
We know they were married *by* 1502 from the A2A document previously posted in this thread
His DNB biography states that his son Anthony was by his wife Elizabeth
It also states he had a daughter Bridget and we know from the Vis Glouc 1623 that this Bridget as his FIRST wife had seven children off George Baynham BEFORE the 1527 settlement by which he married Cecily Gage. So she could not be likely by any wife other than Anne, and Anne was his first, Anthony is known to have been born in 1519.
John Higgins
Sep 9, 2012, 12:17:33 AM9/9/12
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> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> the message
The biography of Sir William Kingston is unreliable as it fails to
> the message
even mention (and is apparently unaware of) his wife Anne Gyse and
thus has no reason to assign children to any other wife than
Elizabeth. The new ODNB mentions all three wives and does not attempt
to assign the maternity of any of the children.
The Gloucs. visitation is also unreliable as it omits at least one
child - specifically Frances, wife of Sir Henry Jerningham, who has
occasioned this discussion. And there is another, more detailed
Baynham pedigree in vol. 6 of the BGAS Transactions which distributes
the children of Sir george baynham quite different between his two
marriages.
Wjhonson
Sep 9, 2012, 12:24:24 AM9/9/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
By the way it was pointed out that when Frances Baynham and Henry Jerningham married, that William Kingston was both the grandfather of Frances and the stepfather of Henry.
I'm not sure that it was pointed out that William *arranged* this marriage, it is said to have occurred "about 1536"
Curiously Frances does *not* appear in the Vis Glouc at the right place, even though her sisters do.
Brad Verity
Sep 9, 2012, 10:40:36 AM9/9/12
to
On Sep 8, 9:24 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> By the way it was pointed out that when Frances Baynham and Henry Jerningham married, that William Kingston was both the grandfather of Frances and the stepfather of Henry.
>
> I'm not sure that it was pointed out that William *arranged* this marriage, it is said to have occurred "about 1536"
Per Sir Henry Jerningham's bio in HOP, "he seems to have owed his
> By the way it was pointed out that when Frances Baynham and Henry Jerningham married, that William Kingston was both the grandfather of Frances and the stepfather of Henry.
>
> I'm not sure that it was pointed out that William *arranged* this marriage, it is said to have occurred "about 1536"
early advancement, first in the service of Princess Mary and then at
court, to his stepfather, Sir William Kingston, who married Jerningham
to one of his granddaughters." If the marriage occurred after Henry
was age 21 (which he reached by the year 1531), then the young man can
be viewed as an adult participant in the matter. If before that year,
he was at the mercy of his mother & stepfather and their choices for
him.
Cheers, -------Brad
John Higgins
Sep 9, 2012, 11:21:16 AM9/9/12
to
On Sep 8, 9:24 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
in the Gloucs visitation? What other sources confirm this?
Wjhonson
Sep 9, 2012, 2:20:06 PM9/9/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
If the requirement of reliability of a Vis is that it omits *no* children, then they must all be tossed.
Why are you posting citations that a person has to not only unravel but then find when you know perfectly well the article is online?
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
Why are you posting citations that a person has to not only unravel but then find when you know perfectly well the article is online?
Douglas Richardson
Sep 9, 2012, 2:35:45 PM9/9/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
The marriages and children of Sir William Kingston, of Elmore and Painswick, Gloucestershire (born by 1476, died 1540) are certainly a bit of a tangle.
Sir William Kingston had three known marriages: (1st) c. 1501-2 Anne Berkeley, widow of John Gyse, Knt. (died 1501), of Elmore, Gloucestershire; (2nd) allegedly Elizabeth ____; and (3rd) before 1531 Mary Scrope, widow of Edward Jernegan (or Jerningham) (died 1515), of Somerleyton, Suffolk. His last wife, Mary, survived him and died in 1548.
Sir William Kingston's only son and heir, Sir Anthony Kingston, was born about 1519 (he being aged 21 in 1540). Previously I assumed that Sir Anthony's mother was Mary Scrope, but this could be a faulty assumption.
Besides his son and heir, Sir William Kingston also had two daughters, Margaret (married by 1518 Sir John St. Loe) and Bridget (married before 1526 George Baynham).
The approximate marriage dates of Margaret and Bridget suggest that they were a lot older than their brother, Sir Anthony Kingston.
At Sir Anthony Kingston's death in 1556, his heir was found to be his sister, Bridget's daughter, Frances Baynham, born about 1526 (aged 30 in 1556), wife of Henry Jerningham.
There is a transcript of the will of Frances (Baynham) Jerningham dated 1582, proved 1584 available online at the following weblink:
http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-66_ff_206-8.pdf
The will was transcribed by a favored correspondant of mine, Nina Green. In the will, Frances Baynham refers to various children and grandchildren, as well as the following relatives:
Her sister Sturley; her sister, Anne; her cousin, Mr. Edmund Audley; her cousins, Mr. Edward Sulyard and Mr. Thomas Sulyard, and her cousin Andrews.
Edmund Audley is surely the son of Richard Audley, Esq., by his wife, Katherine Scrope. As such he would have been a first cousin of Frances Baynham's husband, Henry Jerningham, who was a son of Mary (Scrope) (Jerningham) Kingston. As for Edward and Thomas Sulyard, they appear to be the sons of John Sulyard, by a Jerningham wife.
That Frances Baynham was not the granddaughter of Mary (Scrope) (Jerningham) Kingston is suggested by another will cited by Nina Green. That will is the 1537 will of Elizabeth (Scrope) Vere, Countess of Oxford. Elizabeth (Scrope) Vere was the sister of Mary (Scrope) (Jerninham) Kingston. In the Countess' will she refers to Sir William Kingston as "brother" and William's wife, Mary, as "sister." She also leaves a bequest to Frances Baynham who she refers to as one of her maidens. Had Frances Baynham been the granddaughter of Mary Scrope, surely the Countess would have referred to Frances Baynham as her niece in the will, not just her maiden.
I get the impression that Sir Anthony Kingston's sister, Margaret St. Loe, and her children were excluded from being his heirs. That may be due to Margaret and Anthony being half-siblings. But if so, that would mean that Anthony and Bridget were full-siblings. That's not impossible but there would be at least 11 years difference in their ages.
If so, then I would tentatively assign Margaret St. Loe as the daughter of Sir William Kingston's wife, Anne Berkeley. That would presumably place Bridget and Anthony as the children of Sir William Kingston's alleged second wife, Elizabeth. However, Margaret St. Loe and her issue may have been excluded from being heirs to Sir Anthony Kingston's lands by another route. Nina Green includes a statement that Sir Anthony Kingston settled his lands in Gloucestershire on his niece, Frances Baynham. Such a settlement would make Frances Baynham the sole heir to Sir Anthony Kingston's lands in that county, but not necessarily to his lands elsewhere in England.
There are transcripts of three interesting letters of Sir William Kingston published in Byrne, Lisle Letters: An Abridgement (1983): 143–146 (two letters of Sir William Kingston to Lord Lisle dated 1533), 147 (facsimile), 152 (letter of Sir William Kingston to Lord Lisle dated 1536).
This source is available at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=t3PK2aUBOvcC&pg=PA427&lpg=PA143
Lastly I might point out Sir William Kingston is presumed to be the "Cousin Kyngeston" who is addressed in a letter dated 1533 written by Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop of Canterbury [Reference: Jenkyns, Remains of Thomas Cranmer, D.D., Archbishop of Canterbury 1 (1833): 39–40]. A transcript of this letter may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7TEJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA39
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
The marriages and children of Sir William Kingston, of Elmore and Painswick, Gloucestershire (born by 1476, died 1540) are certainly a bit of a tangle.
Sir William Kingston had three known marriages: (1st) c. 1501-2 Anne Berkeley, widow of John Gyse, Knt. (died 1501), of Elmore, Gloucestershire; (2nd) allegedly Elizabeth ____; and (3rd) before 1531 Mary Scrope, widow of Edward Jernegan (or Jerningham) (died 1515), of Somerleyton, Suffolk. His last wife, Mary, survived him and died in 1548.
Sir William Kingston's only son and heir, Sir Anthony Kingston, was born about 1519 (he being aged 21 in 1540). Previously I assumed that Sir Anthony's mother was Mary Scrope, but this could be a faulty assumption.
Besides his son and heir, Sir William Kingston also had two daughters, Margaret (married by 1518 Sir John St. Loe) and Bridget (married before 1526 George Baynham).
The approximate marriage dates of Margaret and Bridget suggest that they were a lot older than their brother, Sir Anthony Kingston.
At Sir Anthony Kingston's death in 1556, his heir was found to be his sister, Bridget's daughter, Frances Baynham, born about 1526 (aged 30 in 1556), wife of Henry Jerningham.
There is a transcript of the will of Frances (Baynham) Jerningham dated 1582, proved 1584 available online at the following weblink:
http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-66_ff_206-8.pdf
The will was transcribed by a favored correspondant of mine, Nina Green. In the will, Frances Baynham refers to various children and grandchildren, as well as the following relatives:
Her sister Sturley; her sister, Anne; her cousin, Mr. Edmund Audley; her cousins, Mr. Edward Sulyard and Mr. Thomas Sulyard, and her cousin Andrews.
Edmund Audley is surely the son of Richard Audley, Esq., by his wife, Katherine Scrope. As such he would have been a first cousin of Frances Baynham's husband, Henry Jerningham, who was a son of Mary (Scrope) (Jerningham) Kingston. As for Edward and Thomas Sulyard, they appear to be the sons of John Sulyard, by a Jerningham wife.
That Frances Baynham was not the granddaughter of Mary (Scrope) (Jerningham) Kingston is suggested by another will cited by Nina Green. That will is the 1537 will of Elizabeth (Scrope) Vere, Countess of Oxford. Elizabeth (Scrope) Vere was the sister of Mary (Scrope) (Jerninham) Kingston. In the Countess' will she refers to Sir William Kingston as "brother" and William's wife, Mary, as "sister." She also leaves a bequest to Frances Baynham who she refers to as one of her maidens. Had Frances Baynham been the granddaughter of Mary Scrope, surely the Countess would have referred to Frances Baynham as her niece in the will, not just her maiden.
I get the impression that Sir Anthony Kingston's sister, Margaret St. Loe, and her children were excluded from being his heirs. That may be due to Margaret and Anthony being half-siblings. But if so, that would mean that Anthony and Bridget were full-siblings. That's not impossible but there would be at least 11 years difference in their ages.
If so, then I would tentatively assign Margaret St. Loe as the daughter of Sir William Kingston's wife, Anne Berkeley. That would presumably place Bridget and Anthony as the children of Sir William Kingston's alleged second wife, Elizabeth. However, Margaret St. Loe and her issue may have been excluded from being heirs to Sir Anthony Kingston's lands by another route. Nina Green includes a statement that Sir Anthony Kingston settled his lands in Gloucestershire on his niece, Frances Baynham. Such a settlement would make Frances Baynham the sole heir to Sir Anthony Kingston's lands in that county, but not necessarily to his lands elsewhere in England.
There are transcripts of three interesting letters of Sir William Kingston published in Byrne, Lisle Letters: An Abridgement (1983): 143–146 (two letters of Sir William Kingston to Lord Lisle dated 1533), 147 (facsimile), 152 (letter of Sir William Kingston to Lord Lisle dated 1536).
This source is available at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=t3PK2aUBOvcC&pg=PA427&lpg=PA143
Lastly I might point out Sir William Kingston is presumed to be the "Cousin Kyngeston" who is addressed in a letter dated 1533 written by Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop of Canterbury [Reference: Jenkyns, Remains of Thomas Cranmer, D.D., Archbishop of Canterbury 1 (1833): 39–40]. A transcript of this letter may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7TEJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA39
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Wjhonson
Sep 9, 2012, 3:00:49 PM9/9/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I didn't say that the sisters "are in the right place".
I said that Frances was "not" in the right place
Quite a different matter entirely.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
I said that Frances was "not" in the right place
Quite a different matter entirely.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:25 am
Subject: Re: Sir William Kingston and his wives
Subject: Re: Sir William Kingston and his wives
Wjhonson
Sep 9, 2012, 3:03:45 PM9/9/12
to royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Douglas consider that Bridget listed as "first wife" had SEVEN children before her death *by* 1527 and I think, provided you accept that source, see that she was married long "before 1526"
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:43 am
Subject: Re: Sir William Kingston and his wives
Subject: Re: Sir William Kingston and his wives
Wjhonson
Sep 9, 2012, 3:18:20 PM9/9/12
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Sir Edward Sulyard was buried 21 May 1605 at Wetherden, co Suff
He is ancestral to actress Audrey Hepburn
He is also of royal blood in ten steps to Edward I
His mother Elizabeth Jerningham died at Wetherden 19 Jan 1548
This one's grandfather was that Sir Edward (d 1515) who by his last marriage was father of
Henry husband of Frances Baynham
Elizabeth however was his granddaughter by his first marriage Margaret Bedingfield
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:43 am
He is ancestral to actress Audrey Hepburn
He is also of royal blood in ten steps to Edward I
His mother Elizabeth Jerningham died at Wetherden 19 Jan 1548
This one's grandfather was that Sir Edward (d 1515) who by his last marriage was father of
Henry husband of Frances Baynham
Elizabeth however was his granddaughter by his first marriage Margaret Bedingfield
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:43 am
Subject: Re: Sir William Kingston and his wives
Brad Verity
Sep 9, 2012, 3:57:40 PM9/9/12
to
On Sep 9, 11:35 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Sir William Kingston's only son and heir, Sir Anthony Kingston, was born about 1519 (he being aged 21 in 1540). Previously I assumed that Sir Anthony's mother was Mary Scrope, but this could be a faulty assumption.
I wonder if the following A2A document favours Sir Anthony Kingston &
> Sir William Kingston's only son and heir, Sir Anthony Kingston, was born about 1519 (he being aged 21 in 1540). Previously I assumed that Sir Anthony's mother was Mary Scrope, but this could be a faulty assumption.
John Guise being half-brothers, or if it could also be explained by
them being step-brothers and friends:
D326/T16/2 18 Nov. 23 Hen. VIII (1531) "Grant: (i) Anthony Kyngeston
son and heir of Will. Kingeston kt. Thos. ap Harry (ii) John Gyes esq.
- Manor of Elmore, of which (i) were seised by common recovery of
Michs. 23 Hen. VIII. Ralph Norwoode appointed attorney to deliver
seisin. 2 seals on tags, square, red, conv." [Gloucestershire
Archives/The Guise Family and its Gloucestershire Properties]
> At Sir Anthony Kingston's death in 1556, his heir was found to be his sister, Bridget's daughter, Frances Baynham, born about 1526 (aged 30 in 1556), wife of Henry Jerningham.
Green in the link you provided (again, thank you), Frances was "aged
30 and more" in 1556, so born "by" 1526. I think she may have been a
couple (but not many) years older than 30 in 1556, as she was a
"maiden" in the Countess of Oxford's 1537 will, and that suggests to
me a girl older than age 11. But no matter, the birthdate of "about
1533" that Tudor Place assigns to Frances and Sir Henry's son and
heir, Henry Jerningham, is clearly too early. That makes sense
chronologically, as the son Henry Jerningham did not die until 1619,
and he would have been age 86 if he was born in 1533. I'm going to
adjust his birthdate in my database.
> That Frances Baynham was not the granddaughter of Mary (Scrope) (Jerningham) Kingston is suggested by another will cited by Nina Green. That will is the 1537 will of Elizabeth (Scrope) Vere, Countess of Oxford. Elizabeth (Scrope) Vere was the sister of Mary (Scrope) (Jerninham) Kingston. In the Countess' will she refers to Sir William Kingston as "brother" and William's wife, Mary, as "sister." She also leaves a bequest to Frances Baynham who she refers to as one of her maidens. Had Frances Baynham been the granddaughter of Mary Scrope, surely the Countess would have referred to Frances Baynham as her niece in the will, not just her maiden.
could have been the daughter of Sir William Kingston by Mary Scrope,
for that would have Sir Henry Jerningham married to his own niece, his
half-sister's daughter, and this would not have been sanctioned, even
after Henry VIII broke the Church away from Rome.
Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad
Wjhonson
Sep 9, 2012, 4:59:48 PM9/9/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Thank you for the reference to the Countess 1537 which would indicate that Frances was perhaps not then married. She must have married *by 1540* if her grandfather truly arranged it, as he died that year.
D326/T16/2 18 Nov. 23 Hen. VIII (1531) "Grant: (i) Anthony Kyngeston
son and heir of Will. Kingeston kt. Thos. ap Harry (ii) John Gyes esq.
- Manor of Elmore, of which (i) were seised by common recovery of
Michs. 23 Hen. VIII. Ralph Norwoode appointed attorney to deliver
seisin. 2 seals on tags, square, red, conv." [Gloucestershire
Archives/The Guise Family and its Gloucestershire Properties]
D326/T16/2 18 Nov. 23 Hen. VIII (1531) "Grant: (i) Anthony Kyngeston
son and heir of Will. Kingeston kt. Thos. ap Harry (ii) John Gyes esq.
- Manor of Elmore, of which (i) were seised by common recovery of
Michs. 23 Hen. VIII. Ralph Norwoode appointed attorney to deliver
seisin. 2 seals on tags, square, red, conv." [Gloucestershire
Archives/The Guise Family and its Gloucestershire Properties]
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 9, 2012 1:00 pm
Subject: Re: Sir William Kingston and his wives
Sent: Sun, Sep 9, 2012 1:00 pm
Subject: Re: Sir William Kingston and his wives
John Higgins
Sep 9, 2012, 5:52:41 PM9/9/12
to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> the message
Your statement was "Curiously Frances does *not* appear in the Vis
> the message
Glouc at the right place, even though her sisters do." I read this as
if you were saying "her sisters do appear in the Vis Glouc in the
right place", but I guess you were saying only that they "do appear in
the Vis Glouc" - but not necessarily in the right place. We agree
that the vis. pedigree is inaccurate with respect to Frances, and now
you're saying that it may also be inaccurate with respect to her
sisters (as I suggested), so there's even less reason to rely on its
count of the children of Bridget Kingston.
John Higgins
Sep 9, 2012, 6:09:39 PM9/9/12
to
On Sep 9, 11:35 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
A couple of questions and/or issues:
1) What is the evidence and/or argument in favor of the position that
Anne (berkeley) Gyse was the 1st wife and Elizabeth the 2nd? I agree
that it's possible (and perhaps even probable), but I don't see that
we be definitive on this point at the moment. Also, the repeated
mentions of a wife Elizabeth for Sir William Kingston would seem to
make her more than just an "alleged wife - unless the references can
be explained away somehow. It's also interesting that the old DNB
failed to take note of Anne Berkeley Gyse, whose connections were such
that she certainly shouldn't have been overlooked.
2) At least two references to the 1540 IPM of Sir William Kingston
(his HOP bio and Trans. BGAS 6:285) say that his son Anthony was aged
21 "and more" at that date - not specifically 21. But Anthony must
certainly have been born before 1519 (possibly even before the 1512
date that his HOP bio suggests), as he was sheriff of Gloucestershire
in 1533-4 and held other posts of some significance before then (per
the HOP bio). In addition, he is said to have been married to his 1st
wife "by 1524" and he certainly was divorced from her ca. 1533 (the
correspondence between his father and Archbishop Cranmer that you
cited is in regard to the son's divorce). I suppose it's possible
that it was a child marriage (it certainly was arranged by his
father), but it seems unlikely that it was also a child divorce.
Douglas Richardson
Sep 9, 2012, 6:17:07 PM9/9/12
to royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Dear Newsgroup ~
The records appear to suggest that Frances (Baynham) Jerningham was the only child of Bridget (Kingston) Baynham.
As for the difference in age between Bridget (Kingston) Baynham and her brother, Sir Anthony Kingston, it appears that Sir Anthony was actually born in or before 1512 (not 1519), as he was first Sheriff of Gloucestershire in 1533. Anthony Kingston is similarly mentioned in the 1533 letter of Thomas Cranmer. There is no indication that Anthony was an underaged youth in that letter.
This means that Bridget Kingston and Sir Anthony Kingston were much closer in age to each other than what I stated in my previous post.
There is a biography of Sir Anthony Kingston available in the HOP series at the following weblink:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/kingston-anthony-1512-56
The following information is given there regarding Sir Anthony Kingston's "heirs."
"While being taken to London for trial, he died on 14 Apr. at Cirencester. Apparently he had made no will. His niece Frances, wife of Sir Henry Jerningham, was found to be his heir at an inquisition held on 10 Oct. 1556 and she inherited most of his estates. Kingston’s two illegitimate sons, Anthony and Edmund, received several small properties in Gloucestershire." END OF QUOTE
Sir Anthony Kingston's illegitimate sons, Anthony and Edmund Kingston, is mentioned in VCH Gloucester 10 (1972): 7–8; 11 (1976): 49–52 available at the following weblinks:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=15735&strquery=%22William%20Kingston%22
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=19034&strquery=%22William%20Kingston%22
There are other references to these illegitimate sons in other volumes of VCH Gloucester.
Lastly, there is an account in VCH Gloucester 5 (1996): 247-271 which indicates that Sir Anthony Kingston was involved in another Gloucestershire property with the Gyse family. This points to his mother possibly being Anne Berkeley, widow of John Gyse, Esq., who was the 1st wife of Sir William Kingston.
"In 1490 the Crown leased the St. Briavels castle estate to Thomas Baynham, and the lease was renewed to him and his son Christopher for 30 years in 1498. (fn. 38) The Baynhams remained in possession to the end of their term in 1528 (fn. 39) when a lease was granted to Sir William Kingston (fn. 40) (d. 1540). Sir William's son, Sir Anthony Kingston, had a 21-year lease from 1547, (fn. 41) which he immediately assigned to William Guise of Elmore. Guise renewed the lease, (fn. 42) and at his death in 1574 was succeeded by his son John (d. 1588), (fn. 43) who secured an assignment of a 30-year lease granted in 1583 to the Lord Chancellor, Sir Thomas Bromley. (fn. 44) In 1591 the estate was held by John Guise's eldest son William during the minority of a younger son John." END OF QUOTE.
William Gyse of Elmore named here was a younger son of Anne (Berkeley) (Gyse) Kingston. He was conceivably the half-brother of Sir Anthony Kingston.
The records appear to suggest that Frances (Baynham) Jerningham was the only child of Bridget (Kingston) Baynham.
As for the difference in age between Bridget (Kingston) Baynham and her brother, Sir Anthony Kingston, it appears that Sir Anthony was actually born in or before 1512 (not 1519), as he was first Sheriff of Gloucestershire in 1533. Anthony Kingston is similarly mentioned in the 1533 letter of Thomas Cranmer. There is no indication that Anthony was an underaged youth in that letter.
This means that Bridget Kingston and Sir Anthony Kingston were much closer in age to each other than what I stated in my previous post.
There is a biography of Sir Anthony Kingston available in the HOP series at the following weblink:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/kingston-anthony-1512-56
The following information is given there regarding Sir Anthony Kingston's "heirs."
"While being taken to London for trial, he died on 14 Apr. at Cirencester. Apparently he had made no will. His niece Frances, wife of Sir Henry Jerningham, was found to be his heir at an inquisition held on 10 Oct. 1556 and she inherited most of his estates. Kingston’s two illegitimate sons, Anthony and Edmund, received several small properties in Gloucestershire." END OF QUOTE
Sir Anthony Kingston's illegitimate sons, Anthony and Edmund Kingston, is mentioned in VCH Gloucester 10 (1972): 7–8; 11 (1976): 49–52 available at the following weblinks:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=15735&strquery=%22William%20Kingston%22
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=19034&strquery=%22William%20Kingston%22
There are other references to these illegitimate sons in other volumes of VCH Gloucester.
Lastly, there is an account in VCH Gloucester 5 (1996): 247-271 which indicates that Sir Anthony Kingston was involved in another Gloucestershire property with the Gyse family. This points to his mother possibly being Anne Berkeley, widow of John Gyse, Esq., who was the 1st wife of Sir William Kingston.
"In 1490 the Crown leased the St. Briavels castle estate to Thomas Baynham, and the lease was renewed to him and his son Christopher for 30 years in 1498. (fn. 38) The Baynhams remained in possession to the end of their term in 1528 (fn. 39) when a lease was granted to Sir William Kingston (fn. 40) (d. 1540). Sir William's son, Sir Anthony Kingston, had a 21-year lease from 1547, (fn. 41) which he immediately assigned to William Guise of Elmore. Guise renewed the lease, (fn. 42) and at his death in 1574 was succeeded by his son John (d. 1588), (fn. 43) who secured an assignment of a 30-year lease granted in 1583 to the Lord Chancellor, Sir Thomas Bromley. (fn. 44) In 1591 the estate was held by John Guise's eldest son William during the minority of a younger son John." END OF QUOTE.
William Gyse of Elmore named here was a younger son of Anne (Berkeley) (Gyse) Kingston. He was conceivably the half-brother of Sir Anthony Kingston.
Wjhonson
Sep 9, 2012, 8:51:23 PM9/9/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
John, I'm not saying that.
I'm saying nothing about his sisters, fictional or not, correctly placed or not.
I'm only stating that it's curious that it GIVES several sisters *at this place* whether correct or not, but fails to give Frances.
To me that could also imply a serious error in the reconstruction that even tries to *place* frances at this place. Or it could imply that the giver of this ped simply couldn't remember all the people in the right place, or it could even imply that the transcriber of *this* printed work got tired of writing or skipped a line at 11 at night and went right over Frances even though she is present in the folio.
All sorts of things. I just think it's curious and so demands extra effort to find the sources which do place her here and correlate them.
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
I'm saying nothing about his sisters, fictional or not, correctly placed or not.
I'm only stating that it's curious that it GIVES several sisters *at this place* whether correct or not, but fails to give Frances.
To me that could also imply a serious error in the reconstruction that even tries to *place* frances at this place. Or it could imply that the giver of this ped simply couldn't remember all the people in the right place, or it could even imply that the transcriber of *this* printed work got tired of writing or skipped a line at 11 at night and went right over Frances even though she is present in the folio.
All sorts of things. I just think it's curious and so demands extra effort to find the sources which do place her here and correlate them.
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