Gateway Ancestor Sir Humphrey Audley
RBodine996
1999 5: 15 P.M.
"As for Eleanor's son, Humphrey Tuchet (otherwise Audley), he is known to have
been survived by two children at his death. Ronnie Bodine claims Humphrey had
additional children, including a daughter who married a Sydenham of Somerset.
This may well be true. But, reviewing the evidence, neither Dr. Faris or I
believed it was sufficient at this time to warrant including the
Sydenham-Tuchet connection as set forth by Mr. Bodine. The Sydenham family of
Somerset clearly had a Tuchet marriage in their ancestry. This is proven by an
early Sydenham family
visitation pedigree. Likewise, the arms of the Tuchet and Audley families are
found on an early Sydenham tomb in Somerset. This is good evidence but more is
needed to prove the connection. I anticipate the Sydenham-Tuchet connection
will eventually be sorted out. My gut feeling is that Ronnie Bodine has the
right descent. Just more proof is needed. As for Humphrey Tuchet's claimed
Courtney
marriage, we found no primary evidence whatsoever to support this marriage. We
would like to see some."
The question has been raised as to whether there exists primary evidence to
support a series of marriages and descents that appear to be based upon
secondary evidence. The reluctance by Mr. Richardson and Dr. Faris to accept
this descent is understandable insofar as there is considerable disagreement
among various references. The relationships in question are:
1. Did Sir Philip Courtenay (1404-1463), of Powderham, Devonshire have a
daughter named Elizabeth?
2. If so, did this daughter, Elizabeth Courtenay, marry Sir Humphrey Audley
(c1430-1471)?
3. Was there a daughter of this marriage named Elizabeth?
4. If so, did this daughter, Elizabeth Audley, marry as his 1st wife, John
Sydenham (died 1543), of Brympton, Somerset?
At this time I can reply to the first two questions and provide what I hope is
satisfactory primary evidence to support these claims. I regret I must delay
my response to questions 3 and 4 for another two weeks or so while awaiting the
receipt of additional reference materials.
Sir PHILIP COURTENAY, of Powderham, Devonshire was born 18 Jan 1404 at Ashton
and died 16 Dec 1463 (IPM 3 Edward IV, No. 29). King's Knight, 1439-1445;
Knight of the Shire of Devon, 1455-1456. Married c1426 to Elizabeth, daughter
of Sir Walter Hungerford and Katherine Peverell, who brought her husband the
manor of Molland Botreaux. She died 14 Dec 1476 (IPM 16 Edward IV, No. 77.)
Although there appears to be a consensus as to the identification of the 7 sons
of Sir Philip Courtenay, information on his daughters, even the actual number,
seems contradictory among various accounts of the family. Even the names of
their husbands seem to be freely exchanged among them. None of the peerage
works (Collins, Burke, Paget, Dugdale, etc.) refer to his daughter Elizabeth.
But she certainly did exist. The primary evidence appears in The Register of
Edmund Lacy, Bishop of Exeter, 1420-1455. On 13 Jan 1450/1, at Chudleigh,
Bishop Lacy issued a license addressed to the rector of Powderham, for the
marriage of James Luttrell, esq. and Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Philip
Courtenay, knight, in the chapel of Powderham manor house. The Latin entry
reads "....Elizabetham filiam nobilis viri domini Philippi Courtenay militis
inoratorio sive calella infra manerium de Powderham..."
In so far as the existance of Elizabeth has been confirmed as is her marriage
in 1450/1 to Sir James Luttrell, did she also marry Sir Humphrey Audley? The
evidence for this appears in A History of Dunster and of the Families of Mohun
and Luttrell, by Sir H. C. Maxwell Lyte, K.C.B., The St. Catherine Press:
London, 1909. Sir James Luttrell, who was born 1426/7, died at the battle of
St. Albans 17 Feb 1461 fighting on the side of the Lancastrians for which he
was attainted. Elizabeth, Lady Luttrell, married 2ndly, Sir Humphrey Audley,
and following his death in 1471, married a third time, to Thomas Malet, or
Enmore, Somersetshire. Elizabeth died 1 Sep 1493 and was buried before the
high altar in Dunster Church. Lyte furnishes an illustration of her tomb slab
between pages 130 and 131 of his History of Dunster.
It bears noting here that pages 167-169 are concerned with the marriage of
Thomas Luttrell, a great-grandson of Sir James Luttrell and Elizabeth
Courtenay, to Margaret Hadley, a great-granddaughter of the same Elizabeth, but
by her second husband, Sir Humphrey Audley. Due to their relationship, a
document was issued 28 Nov 1558 by the Cardinal of St. Angelo, Papal
Penitentiary, at St. Peter's in Rome, permitting this marriage, which would
otherwise have been disallowed.
Ronny Bodine
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your thorough response to my post. It is clear from the
evidence you provide that Elizabeth Courtenay existed. But, so far,
you have only proven one of her marriages, that is, her first marriage
to James Luttrell. As far as I can tell, the evidence you cite for her
second and third marriages is based solely on secondary sources.
Unless, of course, her tomb confirms her subsequent marriages. Does
it? You don't say. I'm certainly curious about that.
As for any children Elizabeth Courtenay may have had by her Audley
marriage, you have provided no evidence that Elizabeth and Humphrey had
a daughter named Elizabeth who married a Sydenham. You're still short
on that. I've reviewed the available primary records and they reveal
Humphrey Audley was survived by two children, neither named Elizabeth.
My own opinion is that you are correct that Humphrey Audley had a
daughter named Elizabeth who married a Sydenham. But the challenge
now is finding evidence to prove it.
As far as the dispensation dated 1558 between Thomas Luttrell and
Margaret Hadley, that's a good piece of evidence. You state that
Margaret Hadley was a descendant of Elizabeth Courtenay's 2nd marriage
to Humphrey Audley. Can you tell us exactly what Margaret's descent
from Humphrey Audley and Elizabeth Courtenay was? And does the
dispensation state what the degree of kinship was between the two
parties? That would be helpful to know.
If Margaret Hadley is not descended from Elizabeth (Audley) Sydenham,
the dispensation can only be used to prove that Elizabeth Courtenay had
a second Audley marriage and issue by that marriage. If Margaret
Hadley was a Sydenham descendant, it can be used to prove that John
Sydenham's wife, Elizabeth Audley, was a daughter of Humphrey Audley.
Incidentally, I should mention that Wedgwood withstanding, this family
was known as Touchet, as Audley and also as Touchet otherwise Audley.
It's a bit confusing, needless to say. I found one record of Humphrey
as Touchet, the rest as Audley. Since descendants went back and forth
between which surname they employed, I've decided to use the form,
Touchet otherwise Audley, to avoid mass confusion. Humphrey Audley's
father, Sir James Touchet, Lord Audley, was sometimes known as Touchet,
and sometimes as Audley.
Incidentally, have you traced descendants of any of Humphrey Audley's
brothers? As I recall, he had two or three full brothers and one
half-brother. I'm interested in knowing if any of the brothers left
issue.
Do you know?
This is an interesting problem, Ronny. I believe it can be solved and
proven.
All for now. Best always, Douglas Richardson
In article <19991026211140...@ng-bj1.aol.com>,
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RBodine996
Responding to yours of Wed, 27 October 1999 08:48 AM EDT......
>>Thank you for your thorough response to my post. It is clear from the
evidence you provide that Elizabeth Courtenay existed. But, so far, you have
only proven one of her marriages, that is, her first marriage to James
Luttrell. As far as I can tell, the evidence you cite for her second and third
marriages is based solely on secondary sources. Unless, of course, her tomb
confirms her subsequent marriages. Does it? You don't say. I'm certainly
curious about that.
REPLY: Her tomb does not refer to any of her three husbands. The translated
Latin inscription, in Lyte's History of Dunster, p. 130, reads: "Pray, I
beseech you, for the soul of Dame Elizabeth Luttrell, who died on the first day
of the month of September in the year of our Lord 1493. Now, O Christ, we pray
thee have mercy, and do not condemn the redeemed whom thou camest to redeem
when lost."
With regard to her marriage to James Luttrell, I misstated the date of their
marriage license. Lyte gave the year as 1450 citing Oliver's Ecclesiastical
Antiquities (1: 28), however, the license date in The Register of Bishop Edmund
Lacy was 13 Jan 1440/1. And the edition I used was that issued by the Devon &
Cornwall Record Society, New Series, vols. 7, 10, 13, 16 and 18 [1963-1972],
the license of which appears in 2: 225. James Luttrell was born 1426-7, being
aged 3 or 4 at the death of his father Sir John Luttrell in July 1430. In July
1433, the King sold to Humphrey, Earl of Stafford, for 400 marks, the right of
tendering in marriage to James Luttrell, a lady of suitable rank (Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1429-36, p. 224). Lyte (p. 118-9) remarks there is reason to believe
that the Earl made over Luttrell's marriage to Philip Courtenay soon after, who
then became his guardian, and between 1437 and 1439 Courtenay obtained a demise
on the estates of the late Sir John Luttrell. When the marriage license was
issued, James Luttrell was 14-15 years old and his bride, Elizabeth, would have
been of about the same age or slightly younger. Elizabeth's brother William
Courtenay was aged 35 at the death of his father's IPM, thus born about 1428
and Elizabeth could well have been born a year or two before him.
Lady Luttrell, although married twice more, kept the Luttrell name throughout.
Lady Luttrell and her third husband, Thomas Malet, held the Luttrell manors of
Minehead and East Quantockshead in jointure and her son, Hugh Luttrell wanted
possession. An agreement was reached and Lady Luttrell and her husband Thomas
Malet retained East Quantockshead and Hugh got Minehead, and they delivered to
Hugh Luttrell a number of silver valuables, i.e. basins, chafing dishes, pots,
etc. With regard to her second marriage to Sir Humphrey Audley, I will remark
on that below.
>>As for any children Elizabeth Courtenay may have had by her Audley marriage,
you have provided no evidence that Elizabeth and Humphrey had a daughter named
Elizabeth who married a Sydenham. You're still short on that. I've reviewed
the available primary records and they reveal Humphrey Audley was survived by
two children, neither named Elizabeth. My own opinion is that you are correct
that Humphrey Audley had a daughter named Elizabeth who married a Sydenham.
But the challenge now is finding evidence to prove it.
REPLY. As I said in my first posting I do not have all references on hand yet
and will be in a better position to address this next week providing all that I
expect arrives.
>>As far as the dispensation dated 1558 between Thomas Luttrell and Margaret
Hadley, that's a good piece of evidence. You state that Margaret Hadley was a
descendant of Elizabeth Courtenay's 2nd marriage to Humphrey Audley. Can you
tell us exactly what Margaret's descent from Humphrey Audley and Elizabeth
Courtenay was? And does the dispensation state what the degree of kinship was
between the two parties? That would be helpful to know.
REPLY: The 1558 dispensation addresses their kindred in the third and third
degree and the third and fourth degrees. The relationships are shown to be:
THIRD-THIRD DEGREE
Robert Hill
______|_______
Sir Hugh Luttrell = Margaret Hill Giles Hill
| |
Sir Andrew Luttrell Anne Hill =
Christopher Hadley
| | Thomas
Luttrell Margaret Hadley
THIRD-FOURTH DEGREE
Sir James Luttrell=Elizabeth Courtenay=Sir
Humphrey Audley
| | Sir Hugh
Luttrell Philippa Audley
=Richard Hadley
| |
Sir Andrew Luttrell James Hadley
| |
Thomas Luttrell Christopher Hadley
|
Margaret Hadley
>>If Margaret Hadley is not descended from Elizabeth (Audley) Sydenham, the
dispensation can only be used to prove that Elizabeth Courtenay had a second
Audley marriage and issue by that marriage. If Margaret Hadley was a Sydenham
descendant, it can be used to prove that John Sydenham's wife, Elizabeth
Audley, was a daughter of Humphrey Audley.
REPLY: I present the foregoing to prove the second marriage to Sir Humphrey
Audley. Since the descent of Margaret was through Sir Humphrey Audley's
daughter Philippa, the evidence to show other issue will still be addressed.
>>Incidentally, I should mention that Wedgwood withstanding, this family was
known as Touchet, as Audley and also as Touchet otherwise Audley. It's a bit
confusing, needless to say. I found one record of Humphrey as Touchet, the
rest as Audley. Since descendants went back and forth between which surname
they employed, I've decided to use the form, Touchet otherwise Audley, to avoid
mass confusion. Humphrey Audley's father, Sir James Touchet, Lord Audley, was
sometimes known as Touchet, and sometimes as Audley.
>>Incidentally, have you traced descendants of any of Humphrey Audley's
brothers? As I recall, he had two or three full brothers and one
half-brother. I'm interested in knowing if any of the brothers left issue. Do
you know?
REPLY: The male members of Sir Humphrey Audley's immediate family were:
James Tuchet, 5th Lord Audley (c1398-1459), by his two wives had the following
sons.
By (1) Margaret, daughter of William Ros, Lord Roos, who was still living 15
Sep 1423:
1. John Tuchet, 6th Lord Audley. Lord Treasurer of England. He died 29 Sep
1490. By 1456 he was married to Anne, daughter of Sir Thomas Echingham, and
had at least 7 children. His wife died 7 May 1498 leaving a will proved 24
June 1498.
By (2) Eleanor, illeg. daughter of Edmund Holand, Earl of Kent:
2. Sir Humphrey Audley. He died 4 May 1471.
3. Edmund Audley. Bishop of Rochester 1480-1493, of Hereford 1493-1502, and
of Salisbury 1502-1524. He died 23 Aug 1524, leaving a will proved 3 Dec 1524
(PCC, 28 Bodfelde).
4. Thomas Audley, of Maiden Bradley, Wiltshire. Died June 1507 leaving a will
proved 5 July 1507 (PCC, Adeane 25). By his wife Katherine, he had one child,
a daughter named Anne.
Ronny Bodine
JOHN P. RAVILIOUS
>
> Hi Ronny:
>
> Thank you for your thorough response to my post. It is clear from the
> evidence you provide that Elizabeth Courtenay existed. But, so far,
> you have only proven one of her marriages, that is, her first marriage
> to James Luttrell. As far as I can tell, the evidence you cite for her
> second and third marriages is based solely on secondary sources.
> Unless, of course, her tomb confirms her subsequent marriages. Does
> it? You don't say. I'm certainly curious about that.
>
> marriage, you have provided no evidence that Elizabeth and Humphrey had
> a daughter named Elizabeth who married a Sydenham. You're still short
> on that. I've reviewed the available primary records and they reveal
> Humphrey Audley was survived by two children, neither named Elizabeth.
> My own opinion is that you are correct that Humphrey Audley had a
> daughter named Elizabeth who married a Sydenham. But the challenge
> now is finding evidence to prove it.
>
> Margaret Hadley, that's a good piece of evidence. You state that
> Margaret Hadley was a descendant of Elizabeth Courtenay's 2nd marriage
> to Humphrey Audley. Can you tell us exactly what Margaret's descent
> from Humphrey Audley and Elizabeth Courtenay was? And does the
> dispensation state what the degree of kinship was between the two
> parties? That would be helpful to know.
>
> the dispensation can only be used to prove that Elizabeth Courtenay had
> a second Audley marriage and issue by that marriage. If Margaret
> Hadley was a Sydenham descendant, it can be used to prove that John
> Sydenham's wife, Elizabeth Audley, was a daughter of Humphrey Audley.
>
> was known as Touchet, as Audley and also as Touchet otherwise Audley.
> It's a bit confusing, needless to say. I found one record of Humphrey
> as Touchet, the rest as Audley. Since descendants went back and forth
> between which surname they employed, I've decided to use the form,
> Touchet otherwise Audley, to avoid mass confusion. Humphrey Audley's
> father, Sir James Touchet, Lord Audley, was sometimes known as Touchet,
> and sometimes as Audley.
>
> Incidentally, have you traced descendants of any of Humphrey Audley's
> brothers? As I recall, he had two or three full brothers and one
> half-brother. I'm interested in knowing if any of the brothers left
> issue.
> Do you know?
>
> proven.
>
> All for now. Best always, Douglas Richardson
>
> In article <19991026211140...@ng-bj1.aol.com>,
> rbodi...@aol.com (RBodine996) wrote:
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Wednesday, November 3, 1999
Ms. Bodine, Mr. Richardson et al.:
After reviewing the recent messages above concerning the Audley-
Courtenay-Luttrell connection, I went through some recent information
I had gathered on a line I have back to the Malets of Enmore, co.
Somerset. This ancestral line is traced back to one William Malet or
Mallet, born "about 1472" and married to one Alice Yonge or Young. He
is shown as the son of Thomas Mallet and Elizabeth Courtenay (vide
supra).
This information was acquired from an on-line web site: I have not
yet attempted to contact the sponsor/author, and have so far found only
one source which seems to corroborate this information. _Orabile
dictu!_ This one 'source' is the LDS Ancestral Files.
Given Elizabeth Courtenay's age on this apparent third marriage to
Thomas Mallet (being one of several children born to parents, married
ca. 1426), it is certainly reasonable to assume additional children were
born of this marriage sometime between 1472 and 1493, the date of her
death. Suppositions aside, any information you may have in this matter
(or references outside of CP you might suggest to consult) would be
greatly appreciated.
John