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C.P. Addition: Walter Devereux, K.G., Lord Ferrers of Chartley (died 1485) and his 2nd wife Jane
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Douglas Richardson
Apr 17, 2012, 10:41:18 AM4/17/12
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Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage 5 (1926): 321-325 (sub Ferrers) has a good account of
the life history of Sir Walter Devereux, K.G., Lord Ferrers of
Chartley (died 1485). Regarding his second marriage and death, the
following information is provided:
"He married, 2ndly, Jane. He was slain at the battle of Bosworth ,
22 Aug. 1485, and was attainted of high treason in the Partiament
which met 7 Nov. (1485) 1 Hen. VII, and was adjudged to have forfeited
all that he possessed on the preceding 21 Aug., whether held in fee
simple, fee tail, or for life." END OF QUOTE.
We are not told when or where Sir Walter Devereux married his 2nd
wife, Jane. Jane, however, is known to have previously been the wife
of Thomas Ilam, mercer, of London, Alderman of London, 1478–81,
Sheriff of London, 1479–80, Master of the Mercers’ Company, 1481 [see
S.L. Thrupp, Merchant Class of Medieval London, 1300–1500 (1948):
350]. Inasmuch as Thomas Ilam was living in 1481 and Sir Walter
Devereux died in 1485, the marriage of Thomas Ilam's widow, Jane, to
Walter Devereux must have been quite brief.
Recently I came across two records which indicate that Sir Walter
Devereux and his 2nd wife, Jane, were married in or before Michaelmas
term 1483:
Source: Biancalana Fee Tail & the Common Recovery in Medieval England
(2001): 428–429.
a. CP40/886, m.64 (Mich. 1483). P. Thomas Eglove and Richard Moton.
D. Humphrey Starkey, Robert Draper, citizen and alderman of London,
William Herriot, citizen and alderman of London, Peter Peckham, John
Broun, Thomas Champeneys, Thomas Sherwood, and Thomas Forster, citizen
and mercer of London. First vouchee: Walter Devereux. Land: Manors
of Webbley, Bodenham, Lionshall, and Morecote and 500 acres land, 60
acres meadow, 300 acres pasture, 100 acres woods in Webbley, Bodenham,
Lionshall, Morecote, Kingespewn, and Dilwyn, Herefordshire.
b. C.P.40/886, m.66 (Michaelmas 1483). P: P. Eglove and Morton. D:
As in (a). First vouchee: Walter Devereux. Land. [Roll damaged].
Plaintiffs of the recovery conveyed to feoffees for the life of Joan,
wife of Walter Devereux, for her use for her life, remainder as to
Webbley to the heirs of the body of John Crophull and Margery his
wife, deceased, remainder to the right heirs of Margery; as to
Bodenham, to the heirs of the bodies of Walter Devereux, Walter's
father, and Elizabeth his wife, remainder to the right heirs of
Walter, Walter's father; and as to the remaining manors, to Walter
Devereux the son and his heirs. 3 IPM, Henry VII, No. 945; 2 IPM,
Henry VII, No. 549.
The above records are available at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=gTSURuIVXwEC&pg=PA428
Following the death of Sir Walter Devereux, Lord Ferrers, in 1485, his
widow, Jane, married three more husbands: Thomas Vaughan, Knt., of
Tretower, Breconshire; Edward Blount, Knt., of Sodington,
Worcestershire; and Thomas Poyntz, Esq., of Alderley,
Gloucestershire. Jane, Lady Ferrers, and her 5th husband were both
living in 1522. See Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd edition,
2011, and Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd edition, 2011, for
further details.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Complete Peerage 5 (1926): 321-325 (sub Ferrers) has a good account of
the life history of Sir Walter Devereux, K.G., Lord Ferrers of
Chartley (died 1485). Regarding his second marriage and death, the
following information is provided:
"He married, 2ndly, Jane. He was slain at the battle of Bosworth ,
22 Aug. 1485, and was attainted of high treason in the Partiament
which met 7 Nov. (1485) 1 Hen. VII, and was adjudged to have forfeited
all that he possessed on the preceding 21 Aug., whether held in fee
simple, fee tail, or for life." END OF QUOTE.
We are not told when or where Sir Walter Devereux married his 2nd
wife, Jane. Jane, however, is known to have previously been the wife
of Thomas Ilam, mercer, of London, Alderman of London, 1478–81,
Sheriff of London, 1479–80, Master of the Mercers’ Company, 1481 [see
S.L. Thrupp, Merchant Class of Medieval London, 1300–1500 (1948):
350]. Inasmuch as Thomas Ilam was living in 1481 and Sir Walter
Devereux died in 1485, the marriage of Thomas Ilam's widow, Jane, to
Walter Devereux must have been quite brief.
Recently I came across two records which indicate that Sir Walter
Devereux and his 2nd wife, Jane, were married in or before Michaelmas
term 1483:
Source: Biancalana Fee Tail & the Common Recovery in Medieval England
(2001): 428–429.
a. CP40/886, m.64 (Mich. 1483). P. Thomas Eglove and Richard Moton.
D. Humphrey Starkey, Robert Draper, citizen and alderman of London,
William Herriot, citizen and alderman of London, Peter Peckham, John
Broun, Thomas Champeneys, Thomas Sherwood, and Thomas Forster, citizen
and mercer of London. First vouchee: Walter Devereux. Land: Manors
of Webbley, Bodenham, Lionshall, and Morecote and 500 acres land, 60
acres meadow, 300 acres pasture, 100 acres woods in Webbley, Bodenham,
Lionshall, Morecote, Kingespewn, and Dilwyn, Herefordshire.
b. C.P.40/886, m.66 (Michaelmas 1483). P: P. Eglove and Morton. D:
As in (a). First vouchee: Walter Devereux. Land. [Roll damaged].
Plaintiffs of the recovery conveyed to feoffees for the life of Joan,
wife of Walter Devereux, for her use for her life, remainder as to
Webbley to the heirs of the body of John Crophull and Margery his
wife, deceased, remainder to the right heirs of Margery; as to
Bodenham, to the heirs of the bodies of Walter Devereux, Walter's
father, and Elizabeth his wife, remainder to the right heirs of
Walter, Walter's father; and as to the remaining manors, to Walter
Devereux the son and his heirs. 3 IPM, Henry VII, No. 945; 2 IPM,
Henry VII, No. 549.
The above records are available at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=gTSURuIVXwEC&pg=PA428
Following the death of Sir Walter Devereux, Lord Ferrers, in 1485, his
widow, Jane, married three more husbands: Thomas Vaughan, Knt., of
Tretower, Breconshire; Edward Blount, Knt., of Sodington,
Worcestershire; and Thomas Poyntz, Esq., of Alderley,
Gloucestershire. Jane, Lady Ferrers, and her 5th husband were both
living in 1522. See Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd edition,
2011, and Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd edition, 2011, for
further details.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Brad Verity
Apr 18, 2012, 11:10:52 AM4/18/12
to
On Apr 17, 7:41 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Recently I came across two records which indicate that Sir Walter
> Devereux and his 2nd wife, Jane, were married in or before Michaelmas
> term 1483:
Per the bio of Walter Devereux by Ralph A. Griffiths in ODNB (2004),
> Recently I came across two records which indicate that Sir Walter
> Devereux and his 2nd wife, Jane, were married in or before Michaelmas
> term 1483:
Walter was married to his second wife in 1482:
"Ferrers himself, having been widowed in 1469, married in 1482 Joan,
widow of Thomas Ilam, who outlived him."
Cheers, -------Brad
Wjhonson
Apr 22, 2012, 10:58:43 AM4/22/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Instead of Thomas Poyntz yet living in 1522, we have a citation that this one who married Joan the widow of Ilom and devereux, had actually died 16 Feb 1499/1500 evidently s.p.
Douglas Richardson
Apr 22, 2012, 3:05:36 PM4/22/12
to
The correct Thomas Poyntz was of Alderley, Gloucestershire. He was a
younger son of John Poyntz, Esq., of Iron Acton, Gloucestershire, by
Alice, daughter and heiress of John Cookes.
In the period, 1499–1500, Thomas Poyntz and his wife, Jane, previously
the wife of Edward Blount, Knt., sued John Middelmor and Edward
Knyght, feoffees to uses, in Chancery regarding the manor of Blount’s
Hall and land in Blount’s Hall, Staffordshire, and two messuages and
land in Wyndley and Hazlewood, Derbyshire {see List of Early Chancery
Procs. 3 (PRO Lists and Indexes 20) (1906): 459}. In the period, 1500–
1, Thomas and his wife, Jane, sued the same parties in Chancery
regarding the manor of Blontishall and lands in Blontishall, Wyndley,
and Hesilwode, late of Edward Blount, knight, and the said Jane, late
his wife. In the same time period, Thomas and his wife, Jane, sued
Thomas Fyssher, of London, mercer in Chancery regarding an action on a
recognisance of Sir Edward Blount, deceased, and execution in lands
now of the said Dame Jane. Thomas and his wife, Jane, Lady Ferrers,
were legatees in the 1520 will of his brother, Robert Poyntz, Knt.[see
Brown, Abs. of Somersetshire Wills 6 (1890): 30–31 (will of Sir Robert
Poyntz, Knt.)]. In 1521 Anthony Poyntz, Knt. leased Thomas Poyntz,
Esq., of Alderley, the manor of Alderley, together with lands in
Alderley, Tresham, Hillesleyt, and Kilcote, Gloucestershire for a term
of four years at an annual rent of £20; the rent is not payable after
the first year if Lady Ferrers, wife of the said Thomas, dies within
that time [see Gloucestershire Archives: Hale Family of Alderley,
D1086/T2/25 (available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)]. Jane,
Lady Ferrers, and her 5th husband, Thomas Poyntz, were both living in
1522.
The 1520 will of Sir Robert Poyntz, Knt. may be viewed at the
following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RktFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA30
For further detaiils on Thomas Poyntz and his wife, Jane, Lady
Ferrers, see Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2011, 2nd edition ) and
Magna Carta Ancestry (2011, 2nd edition).
John
Apr 22, 2012, 3:37:05 PM4/22/12
to
On Apr 22, 7:58 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> Instead of Thomas Poyntz yet living in 1522, we have a citation that this one who married Joan the widow of Ilom and devereux, had actually died 16 Feb 1499/1500 evidently s.p.
Something is amiss here - probably a confusion of two men named Thomas
> Instead of Thomas Poyntz yet living in 1522, we have a citation that this one who married Joan the widow of Ilom and devereux, had actually died 16 Feb 1499/1500 evidently s.p.
Poyntz.
The will of Sir Robert Poyntz, dated 19 Oct 1520 (he died about 2
weeks later) mentions a couple of times his brother Thomas, to whom he
gave lands at Alderley, and also specifically mentions "my Lady
Ferrers, wife to my said brother" [Thomas]. So Thomas Poyntz of
Alderley and his wife Jane, widow of Lord Ferrers, were certainly
living in 1520 when Sir Robert died.
Pedigrees of the Poyntz family (including Sir John Maclean's work on
the family) do say that Sir Robert's brother Thomas d. 1501 (not
1499/1500), but they appear to have overlooked the will of Sir
Robert. In addition, the pedigrees also show another Thomas Poyntz, a
younger half-brother of the father of Sir Robert and Thomas, for whom
no death date is given. It makes sense chronologically that this is
the Thomas Poyntz who died in 1499/1500 or 1501.
John
Apr 22, 2012, 3:49:29 PM4/22/12
to
On Apr 22, 7:58 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> Instead of Thomas Poyntz yet living in 1522, we have a citation that this one who married Joan the widow of Ilom and devereux, had actually died 16 Feb 1499/1500 evidently s.p.
The mystery is solved....
I think you misread whatever source you think said that Thomas Poyntz
died 16 Feb 1499/1500. It was actually Thomas Baynham, not Thomas
Poyntz, who died that day. Thomas Poyntz and his wife Jane, lady
Ferrers are mentioned in the IPM for Thomas Baynham because Baynham
and his wife held property of Poyntz and his wife. See Trans. Bristol
& Gloucs. Arch. Society, 6;148-9 (1881-2).
Wjhonson
Apr 22, 2012, 4:10:31 PM4/22/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I did not misread my source, and I don't think it said this.
It absolutely said this. The way in which it states this is not able to be misread
It's very clear that the IPM of Thomas Baynham was used, and it's also clear that it states that Thomas POYNTZ the husband of Joan had himself died 16 Feb 1499/1500
So while it's possible that this is a mistake, it's not my mistake.
I stated exactly what the source states.
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
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the message
John
Apr 22, 2012, 4:20:16 PM4/22/12
to
On Apr 22, 1:10 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> I did not misread my source, and I don't think it said this.
> It absolutely said this. The way in which it states this is not able to be misread
> It's very clear that the IPM of Thomas Baynham was used, and it's also clear that it states that Thomas POYNTZ the husband of Joan had himself died 16 Feb 1499/1500
>
> So while it's possible that this is a mistake, it's not my mistake.
> I stated exactly what the source states.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sun, Apr 22, 2012 12:51 pm
> Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: Walter Devereux, K.G., Lord Ferrers of Chartley (died 1485) and his 2nd wife Jane
>
> On Apr 22, 7:58 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Instead of Thomas Poyntz yet living in 1522, we have a citation that this one
> who married Joan the widow of Ilom and devereux, had actually died 16 Feb
> 1499/1500 evidently s.p.
>
> The mystery is solved....
>
> I think you misread whatever source you think said that Thomas Poyntz
> died 16 Feb 1499/1500. It was actually Thomas Baynham, not Thomas
> Poyntz, who died that day. Thomas Poyntz and his wife Jane, lady
> Ferrers are mentioned in the IPM for Thomas Baynham because Baynham
> and his wife held property of Poyntz and his wife. See Trans. Bristol
> & Gloucs. Arch. Society, 6;148-9 (1881-2).
>
What IS the source that says this? Compare it with the source that I
> I did not misread my source, and I don't think it said this.
> It absolutely said this. The way in which it states this is not able to be misread
> It's very clear that the IPM of Thomas Baynham was used, and it's also clear that it states that Thomas POYNTZ the husband of Joan had himself died 16 Feb 1499/1500
>
> So while it's possible that this is a mistake, it's not my mistake.
> I stated exactly what the source states.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sun, Apr 22, 2012 12:51 pm
> Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: Walter Devereux, K.G., Lord Ferrers of Chartley (died 1485) and his 2nd wife Jane
>
> On Apr 22, 7:58 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Instead of Thomas Poyntz yet living in 1522, we have a citation that this one
> who married Joan the widow of Ilom and devereux, had actually died 16 Feb
> 1499/1500 evidently s.p.
>
> The mystery is solved....
>
> I think you misread whatever source you think said that Thomas Poyntz
> died 16 Feb 1499/1500. It was actually Thomas Baynham, not Thomas
> Poyntz, who died that day. Thomas Poyntz and his wife Jane, lady
> Ferrers are mentioned in the IPM for Thomas Baynham because Baynham
> and his wife held property of Poyntz and his wife. See Trans. Bristol
> & Gloucs. Arch. Society, 6;148-9 (1881-2).
>
cited, which is available on-line at the Internet Archive and
elsewhere.
Wjhonson
Apr 22, 2012, 4:48:50 PM4/22/12
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
http://books.google.com/books?id=nMQBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA151#v=onepage&q&f=true
The Transactions entry does not state that Thomas Baynham died on this date.
It clearly states that Thomas Poyntz died on this date.
While that might be wrong, it's their mistake, not mine.
That was my point.
John
Apr 22, 2012, 5:13:14 PM4/22/12
to
On Apr 22, 1:48 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=nMQBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA151#v=onepage&q&f=...
by Sir John Maclean. But Maclean was apparently confused (more than
once), as he later (in his history of The Poyntz family) said that
Thomas Poyntz d. 1501, not 1499/1500.
More importantly, in an earlier article also by Maclean in vol. 6 of
the BGAS Transactions, he quotes extensively from the IPM 11 June 1500
following the death of Thomas Baynham. In particular he says that
"Alce Walewen [Walwyn]...took to her husband the said Thomas Beynam
[Baynham], and that after the marriage was celebrated, ...the said
Thomas died 16 February 1499-50 [sic], and that Alexander Beynam was
his son and nearest heir."
For other evidence that Thomas Poyntz and his wife Jane, Lady Ferrers,
were living as late as 9 Nov 1512, see CP 5:325 sub Ferrers. And, as
mentioned previously, the will of Sir Robert Poyntz makes it clear
that they were also living in 1520.
BTW the BGAS Transactions can be viewed on-line at the website of that
society.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=nMQBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA151#v=onepage&q&f=...
>
> The Transactions entry does not state that Thomas Baynham died on this date.
> It clearly states that Thomas Poyntz died on this date.
> While that might be wrong, it's their mistake, not mine.
>
> That was my point.
This citation is from vol. 12 of the BGAS Transactions, in an article
> The Transactions entry does not state that Thomas Baynham died on this date.
> It clearly states that Thomas Poyntz died on this date.
> While that might be wrong, it's their mistake, not mine.
>
> That was my point.
by Sir John Maclean. But Maclean was apparently confused (more than
once), as he later (in his history of The Poyntz family) said that
Thomas Poyntz d. 1501, not 1499/1500.
More importantly, in an earlier article also by Maclean in vol. 6 of
the BGAS Transactions, he quotes extensively from the IPM 11 June 1500
following the death of Thomas Baynham. In particular he says that
"Alce Walewen [Walwyn]...took to her husband the said Thomas Beynam
[Baynham], and that after the marriage was celebrated, ...the said
Thomas died 16 February 1499-50 [sic], and that Alexander Beynam was
his son and nearest heir."
For other evidence that Thomas Poyntz and his wife Jane, Lady Ferrers,
were living as late as 9 Nov 1512, see CP 5:325 sub Ferrers. And, as
mentioned previously, the will of Sir Robert Poyntz makes it clear
that they were also living in 1520.
BTW the BGAS Transactions can be viewed on-line at the website of that
society.
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