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Lascelles, Pickering and Burgh
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Saba Risaluddin via
Oct 9, 2015, 6:42:42 AM10/9/15
to GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Trying to find out more about Maud (-12 Nov 1432), daughter of Lascelles of
Sowerby and wife of William Burgh (d. 4 Nov 1442), I was struck by the
recurrence of the surname Lascelles in the Pickering and Burgh families:
James Pickering of Killington (d. before 1476/7), married Margaret
Lascelles of Escrick. (The Pickerings were covered by Brad Verity in 2007
[1], who identifies three successive James, Margaret’s husband being the
second of that name, John’s grandson).
William Burgh (d. 31 Dec 1465), son of William Burgh & Maud Lascelles,
married Helen (-20 Jun 1446), daughter of John Pickering of Killington and
Ellerton & his wife Helena, perhaps a Harrington
The descent of Lascelles of Sowerby in VCH Yorkshire North Riding vol II,
Thirsk, sub Sowerby [2], gives the descent from a Thomas Lascelles living
in the 12th century. This refers to a William, son of William, whose widow
Joan died in 1418, when their son, another William, was in possession.
Chronologically, William & his wife Joan could well be Maud’s parents; but
I have found no evidence to support this supposition.
VCH Yorkshire North Riding vol I, Kirkby Wiske [3], covers Breckenbrough,
with a mention of Sowerby, and tells us that the Lascelles of Sowerby were
distinct from those of Kirkby Wiske: “The branch of the Lascelles who held
Sowerby (q.v.), near Thirsk, of the Mowbrays, and who may have been cognate
to, but were not the same as, the line at Kirkby Wiske, held Breckenbrough
from its first mention in 1228
<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/yorks/north/vol1/pp176-183#fnn51> until
1623–4. They were usually described as of Sowerby until the 16th century,
but Breckenbrough seems to have then become their most important seat."
It could, of course, be pure coincidence that William Burgh, son of William
Burgh & his wife Maud Lascelles of Sowerby, married Helen, daughter of John
Pickering; and about a generation later James Pickering, John’s grandson
married Margaret Lascelles of Escrick. On the other hand, in the absence
of any primary evidence that William Burgh’s wife Maud was indeed of
Sowerby, is it not at least possible that the two marriages,
Burgh-Lascelles and Pickering-Lascelles are not unconnected, and that she
was in fact a descendant of Tiffany’s, and not a Lascelles of Sowerby?
Margaret, wife of James Pickering, was a daughter of Roger Lascelles, who
appears to be a descendant of Theophania/Tiffany, daughter of Roger de
Lascelles (d. c.1300). Tiffany married Ralph fitz Ranulf, and had a son of
the same name (d. after 1343), who is known variously as Ralph de Lascelles
or Ranulf fitz Ralph; their son John married Maud de Campaign, by whom he
had a son, also Ranulf or Ralph, (d. after 1388). The descent of Lascelles
to this point has been fully covered by John Ravilious, complete with
sources, on at least two occasions (2002 and 2004) [4].
*Records Relating to the Barony of Kendale*, 1294, vol II, sub Barbon [5],
provides further details, including a pedigree that gives a different
descent from Theophania/Tiffany: “Barbon, part of Escrick, and various
estates in the cos. of York and Lincoln, afterwards descended in the line
of Lascels which descended from Theophania, eldest (?) daughter of Roger,
baron de Lascels, and were held in 1323 by her son, Ralph de Lascels. After
the 4th step from Ralph the pedigree is defective, but Margaret, daughter
and heir of [Roger] Lascels of Escrick carried the manor of Barbon and
other property in marriage to James Pykeryng of Killington and, dying 17
November, 1499. . .”
The accompanying pedigree shows Theophania’s son Ralph de Lascelles & his
wife, ? Isabel, with a son Roger who m. Eleanor (and possibly a second son
John); Roger & his wife Eleanor with a son Ralph, dead in 1381, who was
father of Ralph (-1411), who m. Ann by whom he had a son Roger, father of
yet another Roger (-1461) who m Eleanor by whom he had Margaret, wife of
James Pickering of Killington, whose date of death is given as 1461.
Another mysterious figure who occurs in the Lascelles family is Maud de
Campaign (d. after 1368), who married Tiffany’s great-grandson John de
Lascelles of Escrick (d. before 1369), and was the mother of the Ranulf or
Ralph de Lascelles of Spennithorne. Maud is such a common name that it
would be absurd to suggest that Maud Lascelles of Sowerby was named after
Maud de Campaign, but the presence of two mysterious Mauds in the Lascelles
family poses an intriguing challenge.
I should be most grateful for any information that might help to shed
further light on Maud Lascelles, wife of William Burgh.
Sources:
[1]
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2007-02/1170999344
[2] 'Parishes: Thirsk', in A History of the County of York North Riding:
Volume 2, ed. William Page (London, 1923), pp. 58-70
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/yorks/north/vol2/pp58-70 [accessed 9
October 2015].
[3] 'Parishes: Kirkby Wiske', in A History of the County of York North
Riding: Volume 1, ed. William Page (London, 1914), pp. 176-183
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/yorks/north/vol1/pp176-183 [accessed 8
October 2015].
[4]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/Lascelles$20/soc.genealogy.medieval/iy5KoiL-Do4/qjVMsoHUJDcJ
and
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/Lascelles$20/soc.genealogy.medieval/zitglS_sWNg/JUTAhGIDUQsJ
[5] 'Barbon', in Records Relating To the Barony of Kendale: Volume 2, ed.
William Farrer and John F Curwen (Kendal, 1924), pp. 364-373
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/kendale-barony/vol2/pp364-373 [accessed 9
October 2015].
Sowerby and wife of William Burgh (d. 4 Nov 1442), I was struck by the
recurrence of the surname Lascelles in the Pickering and Burgh families:
James Pickering of Killington (d. before 1476/7), married Margaret
Lascelles of Escrick. (The Pickerings were covered by Brad Verity in 2007
[1], who identifies three successive James, Margaret’s husband being the
second of that name, John’s grandson).
William Burgh (d. 31 Dec 1465), son of William Burgh & Maud Lascelles,
married Helen (-20 Jun 1446), daughter of John Pickering of Killington and
Ellerton & his wife Helena, perhaps a Harrington
The descent of Lascelles of Sowerby in VCH Yorkshire North Riding vol II,
Thirsk, sub Sowerby [2], gives the descent from a Thomas Lascelles living
in the 12th century. This refers to a William, son of William, whose widow
Joan died in 1418, when their son, another William, was in possession.
Chronologically, William & his wife Joan could well be Maud’s parents; but
I have found no evidence to support this supposition.
VCH Yorkshire North Riding vol I, Kirkby Wiske [3], covers Breckenbrough,
with a mention of Sowerby, and tells us that the Lascelles of Sowerby were
distinct from those of Kirkby Wiske: “The branch of the Lascelles who held
Sowerby (q.v.), near Thirsk, of the Mowbrays, and who may have been cognate
to, but were not the same as, the line at Kirkby Wiske, held Breckenbrough
from its first mention in 1228
<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/yorks/north/vol1/pp176-183#fnn51> until
1623–4. They were usually described as of Sowerby until the 16th century,
but Breckenbrough seems to have then become their most important seat."
It could, of course, be pure coincidence that William Burgh, son of William
Burgh & his wife Maud Lascelles of Sowerby, married Helen, daughter of John
Pickering; and about a generation later James Pickering, John’s grandson
married Margaret Lascelles of Escrick. On the other hand, in the absence
of any primary evidence that William Burgh’s wife Maud was indeed of
Sowerby, is it not at least possible that the two marriages,
Burgh-Lascelles and Pickering-Lascelles are not unconnected, and that she
was in fact a descendant of Tiffany’s, and not a Lascelles of Sowerby?
Margaret, wife of James Pickering, was a daughter of Roger Lascelles, who
appears to be a descendant of Theophania/Tiffany, daughter of Roger de
Lascelles (d. c.1300). Tiffany married Ralph fitz Ranulf, and had a son of
the same name (d. after 1343), who is known variously as Ralph de Lascelles
or Ranulf fitz Ralph; their son John married Maud de Campaign, by whom he
had a son, also Ranulf or Ralph, (d. after 1388). The descent of Lascelles
to this point has been fully covered by John Ravilious, complete with
sources, on at least two occasions (2002 and 2004) [4].
*Records Relating to the Barony of Kendale*, 1294, vol II, sub Barbon [5],
provides further details, including a pedigree that gives a different
descent from Theophania/Tiffany: “Barbon, part of Escrick, and various
estates in the cos. of York and Lincoln, afterwards descended in the line
of Lascels which descended from Theophania, eldest (?) daughter of Roger,
baron de Lascels, and were held in 1323 by her son, Ralph de Lascels. After
the 4th step from Ralph the pedigree is defective, but Margaret, daughter
and heir of [Roger] Lascels of Escrick carried the manor of Barbon and
other property in marriage to James Pykeryng of Killington and, dying 17
November, 1499. . .”
The accompanying pedigree shows Theophania’s son Ralph de Lascelles & his
wife, ? Isabel, with a son Roger who m. Eleanor (and possibly a second son
John); Roger & his wife Eleanor with a son Ralph, dead in 1381, who was
father of Ralph (-1411), who m. Ann by whom he had a son Roger, father of
yet another Roger (-1461) who m Eleanor by whom he had Margaret, wife of
James Pickering of Killington, whose date of death is given as 1461.
Another mysterious figure who occurs in the Lascelles family is Maud de
Campaign (d. after 1368), who married Tiffany’s great-grandson John de
Lascelles of Escrick (d. before 1369), and was the mother of the Ranulf or
Ralph de Lascelles of Spennithorne. Maud is such a common name that it
would be absurd to suggest that Maud Lascelles of Sowerby was named after
Maud de Campaign, but the presence of two mysterious Mauds in the Lascelles
family poses an intriguing challenge.
I should be most grateful for any information that might help to shed
further light on Maud Lascelles, wife of William Burgh.
Sources:
[1]
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2007-02/1170999344
[2] 'Parishes: Thirsk', in A History of the County of York North Riding:
Volume 2, ed. William Page (London, 1923), pp. 58-70
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/yorks/north/vol2/pp58-70 [accessed 9
October 2015].
[3] 'Parishes: Kirkby Wiske', in A History of the County of York North
Riding: Volume 1, ed. William Page (London, 1914), pp. 176-183
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/yorks/north/vol1/pp176-183 [accessed 8
October 2015].
[4]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/Lascelles$20/soc.genealogy.medieval/iy5KoiL-Do4/qjVMsoHUJDcJ
and
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/Lascelles$20/soc.genealogy.medieval/zitglS_sWNg/JUTAhGIDUQsJ
[5] 'Barbon', in Records Relating To the Barony of Kendale: Volume 2, ed.
William Farrer and John F Curwen (Kendal, 1924), pp. 364-373
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/kendale-barony/vol2/pp364-373 [accessed 9
October 2015].
Bargiel via
Oct 11, 2015, 6:05:17 AM10/11/15
to GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Hello Saba,
Although I can't help you with information relating directly to Maud Lascelles, I am the owner of www.pickeringsofyorkshire.com and am currently trying to establish a link between (at least some of) the Pickerings and the Bruses (see sections on Origins, Name & Arms and the very first Family Tree). My reading so far has led me to Ruth Margaret Blakely's superb thesis on "The Brus family in England and Scotland 1100-c1290" available at http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/1594. She mentions the Lascelles and you might be able to find further information in her copious sources.
Why the interest, may I ask?
Regards,
Hazel (Bargiel, nee Pickering)
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Saba Risaluddin
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 12:41 PM
To: GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Lascelles, Pickering and Burgh
Although I can't help you with information relating directly to Maud Lascelles, I am the owner of www.pickeringsofyorkshire.com and am currently trying to establish a link between (at least some of) the Pickerings and the Bruses (see sections on Origins, Name & Arms and the very first Family Tree). My reading so far has led me to Ruth Margaret Blakely's superb thesis on "The Brus family in England and Scotland 1100-c1290" available at http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/1594. She mentions the Lascelles and you might be able to find further information in her copious sources.
Why the interest, may I ask?
Regards,
Hazel (Bargiel, nee Pickering)
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Saba Risaluddin
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 12:41 PM
To: GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Lascelles, Pickering and Burgh
John Watson
Oct 11, 2015, 7:11:19 AM10/11/15
to
As I have previously pointed out, there is no real evidence of any family connection between the families of Pickering of Killngton and Brus of Pickering to back up Ruth Blakey's statement.
The progenitor of the Pickering family of Killington was William de Pickering, who was appointed about 1260 as steward of the Brus manor of Killington in Westmorland by Peter de Brus III of Skelton, but there is no evidence of any family relationship.
Two members of the Brus family of Pickering adopted the name of Pickering. These were both clergymen; Master William de Pickering, Doctor of Canon Law, dean of York, and Master Robert de Pickering, Doctor of Civil Law, archdeacon of Nottingham, and dean of York, both sons of Adam de Brus I of Pickering. Although I have no real evidence of this, I believe that they both received their early education in Guisborough priory and it was a custom for young novices to drop their family name and adopt instead the name of their birthplace. Another example is Robert de Scardeburgh (Scarborough), Archdeacon of the East Riding, who was from the family of Ughtred of Scarborough.
For more information on the Brus family of Pickering see my blog:
http://johnmwatson.blogspot.com/2014/06/brus-of-pickering.html
Regards,
John
sabaris...@gmail.com
Oct 12, 2015, 1:06:22 AM10/12/15
to
On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 12:05:17 PM UTC+2, Bargiel via wrote:
> Hello Saba,
>
>
>
> Although I can't help you with information relating directly to Maud Lascelles, I am the owner of www.pickeringsofyorkshire.com and am currently trying to establish a link between (at least some of) the Pickerings and the Bruses (see sections on Origins, Name & Arms and the very first Family Tree). My reading so far has led me to Ruth Margaret Blakely's superb thesis on "The Brus family in England and Scotland 1100-c1290" available at http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/1594. She mentions the Lascelles and you might be able to find further information in her copious sources.
>
>
>
> Why the interest, may I ask?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Hazel (Bargiel, nee Pickering)
>
>
>
>
Hello Hazel
> Hello Saba,
>
>
>
> Although I can't help you with information relating directly to Maud Lascelles, I am the owner of www.pickeringsofyorkshire.com and am currently trying to establish a link between (at least some of) the Pickerings and the Bruses (see sections on Origins, Name & Arms and the very first Family Tree). My reading so far has led me to Ruth Margaret Blakely's superb thesis on "The Brus family in England and Scotland 1100-c1290" available at http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/1594. She mentions the Lascelles and you might be able to find further information in her copious sources.
>
>
>
> Why the interest, may I ask?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Hazel (Bargiel, nee Pickering)
>
>
>
>
thank you for this - I look forward to studying your site.
My great-grandmother was a Dalrymple, so I have scores of Scots ancestors including, of course, Brus, Stewart, etc etc.
I have another Pickering connections in addition to the Burgh-Pickering marriage noted: through Joan, daughter of Sir William Pickering, who m. Henry de Greystock.
As for my interest, it's simply the attempt to fill gaps in my ancestor list (currently at generation 25, and beyond in some lines) - and the thrill of the detective work.
Good luck in your work on the Pickerings.
regards, Saba
sabaris...@gmail.com
Oct 12, 2015, 1:30:26 AM10/12/15
to
Bargiel via
Oct 12, 2015, 6:49:18 AM10/12/15
to GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Hi John,
"there is no real evidence of any family connection between the families of
Pickering of Killngton and Brus of Pickering"
Even if I found evidence of the connection, I can't unfortunately claim
descent from the Killington Pickerings. My name is at the very bottom of
the tree I call the Pickerings of Holderness:
http://www.pickeringsofyorkshire.com/family-trees/1500-1599/pickerings-of-holderness.
The straws I'm clutching at in Ruth Blakely's book at are:
- footnote no. 51 on page 153 "There was in Pickering a family known
variously as de Brus, de Brus of Pickering, or simply of Pickering"
- pages 211 and 212 and footnote no. 32 where RMB states "The names William,
Adam, Robert and Richard appear with as much regularity among the families
of Pickering and Brus of Pickering as they do in the two main lines of the
Bruses of Skelton and of Annandale" and "While there is undoubtedly some
link between these Bruses and the senior line, there is no clear evidence as
to when they first arose from it".
- The connection between the Bruses and William d'Aumale, founder of Hedon,
where my first known Pickerings appear.
"it was a custom for young novices to drop their family name and adopt
instead the name of their birthplace"
As a newcomer to medieval genealogy, I didn't know that. Presumably not all
persons bearing the name "of Pickering" were clergymen, otherwise the name
would have died out?
Regards,
Hazel
-----Message d'origine-----
From: John Watson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 1:11 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lascelles, Pickering and Burgh
"there is no real evidence of any family connection between the families of
Pickering of Killngton and Brus of Pickering"
descent from the Killington Pickerings. My name is at the very bottom of
the tree I call the Pickerings of Holderness:
http://www.pickeringsofyorkshire.com/family-trees/1500-1599/pickerings-of-holderness.
The straws I'm clutching at in Ruth Blakely's book at are:
- footnote no. 51 on page 153 "There was in Pickering a family known
variously as de Brus, de Brus of Pickering, or simply of Pickering"
- pages 211 and 212 and footnote no. 32 where RMB states "The names William,
Adam, Robert and Richard appear with as much regularity among the families
of Pickering and Brus of Pickering as they do in the two main lines of the
Bruses of Skelton and of Annandale" and "While there is undoubtedly some
link between these Bruses and the senior line, there is no clear evidence as
to when they first arose from it".
- The connection between the Bruses and William d'Aumale, founder of Hedon,
where my first known Pickerings appear.
"it was a custom for young novices to drop their family name and adopt
instead the name of their birthplace"
persons bearing the name "of Pickering" were clergymen, otherwise the name
would have died out?
Regards,
Hazel
-----Message d'origine-----
From: John Watson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 1:11 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lascelles, Pickering and Burgh
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