Mary Browne, widow of Lord John Grey, of Pirgo, Essex and her alleged 2nd marriage to Henry Capel
Douglas Richardson
A new book, Catholicism and Community in Early Modern England, by
Michael Questier, published in 2006, states on page 93 that Mary
Browne, widow of Lord John Grey, of Pirgo (in Havering-atte-Bower) ,
Essex, married (2ndly) Sir Henry Capel, of Hadham, Hertfordshire. See
the following weblink for that information:
My research confirms that Mary Browne did in fact survive her husband,
Sir John Grey's death in 1564. I find she was living as late as 1573,
being then styled Mary Grey, widow, when she and her son, Henry Grey,
Esquire, conveyed the manor of Hoo Hall (in Rivenhall), Essex to John
Wood and James Morres [Reference: Ancient Deeds—Series B 3 (List &
Index Soc. 113) (1975): B.12716]. She is likewise styled "Lady Mary
Grey, late the wife of Sir John Grey" in another contemporary record
dated 12 Elizabeth [1569–1570] [Reference: PRO Document, DL 25/3359].
Elsewhere, Collins' Peerage of England, 2 (1756): 273, echoes Questier
in syaing that Henry Capel "married Mary, daughter of Anthony Browne,
Viscount Montagu; and after her decease, Catherine fourth daughter of
Thomas Manners, Earl of Rutland." Yet Clutterbuck's History of
Hertford 1:243-244 indicates that Henry Capel's wife, Catherine
Manners, died 9 March 1572. Collins attributes nine children to Henry
Capel's marriage to Catherine Manners. If Clutterbuck has his dates
correctly stated, it would simply not be possible chronologically for
Henry Capel to have married (1st) Mary Browne, widow of Lord John
Grey, of Pirgo, Essex.
Below is the weblink for Collins:
http://books.google.com/books?id=QIkUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA372&dq=Mary+Browne+Capel&lr=#PPA373,M1
While there may be a better explanation for the strange mix-up by
Questier, the most likely solution to this problem is found in
Collins' account of the Capel family in his work, Peerage of England,
2 (1756): 273. He indicates there that Arthur Capel, son of Sir Henry
Capel and Catherine Manners, married "Mary, daughter of John Grey,
Lord Grey of Pergo." Arthur Capel and his wife, Mary Grey,
reportedly had no less than nineteen children. If so, then it would
seem that Arthur Capel was married to a daughter of this same Sir John
Grey of Pirgo. Whatever the case, it is not possible for Arthur
Capel's father, Henry Capel, to have married this lady's mother,
unless of course it was after 1573.
Any comments would be appreciated. When replying, please cite your
sources and provide weblinks if you have them.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
wjhonson
she was then holding the Manor of Rayne in dower.
I think it is just possible that this is Mary Browne, and then she and
Henry Capell of Hadham, did not marry before his marriage to
Katherine Manners, but rather after it.
This then would allow her to be styled "widow of John Grey" on the
documents you cite, but yet still marry, sometime before 1588 to Henry
Capell.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
In his will, Sir Henry Capell of Hadham mentions that there was an
agreement between himself and "Lord Montagu" regarding how Henry's
second wife was to receive the Manor of Rayne.
I can imagine an agreement of this sort if, in fact, as I surmise,
Mary, Henry's second wife, was the "Lord Montagu's" sister.
Will Johnson
SolomonW
94a7e5...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, royala...@msn.com
says...
> A new book, Catholicism and Community in Early Modern England, by
> Michael Questier, published in 2006,
>
What surprises me is how quickly Catholicism which had been in England
for over a 1000 years became anti-British in Early Modern England.
Douglas Richardson
As a followup to my original post, I note that there is a lengthy
article on the Capell family in Trans. Essex Arch. Soc. n.s. 9 (1906):
243–272. This article is available online and may be viewed at the
following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6_IGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA251&dq=Mary+Capell+1614#PPA243-IA6,M1
On page 249 of this article, the following is stated:
"On the death of his first wife in 1572, Henry [Capell] married Mary
Browne, widow of John Grey, ...." END OF QUOTE.
On page 250, the following is stated:
"Mary survived her husband Henry [Capell]; and, though the deed is not
extant, it is clear that Rayne [Essex] must have been settled on her
for life. This appears from a later settlement made in 1600 by Arthur
[Henry's son] on his own wife Margaret, by which inter alia, his
reversion to the Rayne property expectant on the death of his step-
mother is conveyed to trustees, in truth for himself for life,
remainder to his wife for life; and, after her death, to his own
heirs." END OF QUOTE.
Further, on page 250:
"It is evidence from the wording of this deed that Hadham
[Hertfordshire] had now become the central seat of the family, while
Rayne [Essex] was regarded as the dower house; as such it was occupied
by Mary, Henry's widow, up to the time of her death, which must have
taken place in 1614, after which date we find Henry, Arthur's son,
living there." END OF QUOTE.
Fortunately, there is a copy of the 1600 settlement of Rayne, Essex
made by Sir Arthur Capell on pages 266-267. In the settlement, I note
that Sir Arthur Capell specifically refers to his step-mother, Mary,
widow of Henry Capell, as "the Right Honourable Mary Lady Grey, late
the wife of Henry Capell, esq.
So there can be no question that Henry Capell's second wife was Lady
Mary Grey.
As to Lady Mary Grey's alleged death in 1614, this date seems to rest
solely on the date that her grandson, Henry Capell, took up residence
at Rayne, Essex, which property was Lady Mary's dower property. This
assumes that Lady Mary was living at Rayne, Essex at the time of her
death, which assumption is not based on any evidence that I can see.
Certainly the burial of Lady Mary Grey is not recorded in the parish
registers of Rayne, Essex.
Elsewhere, I note that there is a transcript of the monumental
inscription in print for Lady Mary's first husband, Sir John Grey,
which is found in Brydges, Collins's Peerage of England, 3 (1812):
352. This record may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=sIkUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA352&dq=Pirgo+Essex&lr=#PPA352,M1
This ancient monumental inscription was located in a chapel of the
mansion house of Sir John Grey at Pirgo (in Havering-atte-Bower),
Essex. The inscription states that Sir John Grey died 19 November
1564. And, although there is a space allotted for the death date of
his wife, Mary, the date of her death is left blank.
Thus, it would appear that Lady Mary Grey was last known to be living
10 April 1600, which is the date of the settlement made by her step-
son, Sir Arthur Capell. Sir Arthur Capell was also her son-in-law, as
his wife, Margaret, was Lady Mary Grey's own daughter.
In conclusion, the historian Michael Questier is correct in stating
that Mary Browne [also known as Lady Mary Grey] married Henry Capel,
of Hadham, Hertfordshire, but he was her second husband, not her
first. Also, he was an esquire, not a knight.
Comments are invited. When replying, please cite your sources and
provide your weblinks if you have them. Thank you.
Douglas Richardson
In my post just now, I implied that the historian Questier had stated
that Mary Browne was the first wife of Henry Capell, of Hadham,
Hertfordshire. Actually Questier correctly identified Henry Capell
as Mary Browne's second husband, but, as stated, he was an esquire,
not a knight.
It was Collins, not Questier, who identified Mary Browne as the first
wife of Henry Capell. Mary Browne was actually Henry Capell's second
wife and his surviving widow, which fact is established by evidence
provided in the article on the Capell family published in Trans. Essex
Arch. Soc. n.s. 9 (1906): 243–272.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
I've found that there is an interesting discussion of Mary Browne, and
her two husbands, Lord John Grey and Henry Capell, Esq., in the recent
book, An Elizabethan Progress: The Queen’s Journey Into East Anglia,
1578, by Zillah Dovey, published in 1996, pages 131–132. This
discussion may be viewed at the following weblink:
By the terms of her second husband, Henry Capell's will, Lady Mary was
to keep her coach and the two horses 'that doe usually draw the
same."
Ms. Dovey errs in stating that Henry Capell was knighted in 1587, the
year before his death. His son, Arthur's settlement dated 1601
clearly refers to him as Henry Capell, Esq., not Knt.
Likewise the author makes no comment as to Mary Browne's exact date of
death. Surely this good lady's death date must be of record
someplace. Perhaps Adrian Channing might have an idea how to find it.
Douglas Richardson
There is an account of the family of Lord John Grey and his wife, Mary
Browne, in the book, Leicestershire Pedigrees and Royal Descents
(1887), by Fletcher, pg. 70-71. This material may be found at the
following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=VpnC3wgof6gC&pg=PA71&dq=Mary+Grey+Hadham&lr=#PPA70,M1
No mention is made of Mary Browne's second husband, Henry Capell,
Esq., yet we now have evidence to prove this marriage took place.
Stranger still, Mary Browne's daughter, Margaret Grey, is stated to
have married "Sir Henry Capel," rather than Sir Arthur Capel as she
did. Thus, the second marriage of the mother has here been confused
with the only marriage of the daughter, they having married Capell
father and son.
I note that Mary Browne and Lord John Grey are stated to have had a
daughter, Anne Grey, who died young. Yet Notes & Queries 7 (1853):
607–608 indicates that Anne Grey married Henry Denny.
Likewise, no daughter named Jane Grey is mentioned, which Jane
allegedly married an Edward Greville. Yet, a daughter Elizabeth is
mentioned. Elsewhere, I see that Brydges in Collins’ Peerage of
England 4 (1812): 330–361 confuses things further by stating that
Edward Greville "married Elizabeth, daughter of Lord John Grey… widow
of Henry Denny, Esq.” Yikes.
So which daughter married Henry Denny, and which daughter married
Edward Greville? Was it Anne, Jane, or Elizabeth Grey? Same woman,
or two women? What a tangled mess.
Simon Fairthorne
Ms. Dovey errs in stating that Henry Capell was knighted in 1587, the
year before his death. His son, Arthur's settlement dated 1601
clearly refers to him as Henry Capell, Esq., not Knt.
Likewise the author makes no comment as to Mary Browne's exact date of
death. Surely this good lady's death date must be of record
someplace. Perhaps Adrian Channing might have an idea how to find it.
Durrand - Hertfordshire Families says 4 Feb 1616/7
this is from notes that I made over 30 years ago and I didn't record where
Durrand got this from
Looking at the Visitation of Herts it is easy to see how the muddling of the
two Henry Capells arose -
Sir Henry Capell = Anne sister to Thomas Manners, Earle of Rutland
and
Katherine da to Thomas Manners, Earle of Rutland = Henry Capell
it also has Mary Brown marrying the wrong Henry Capell
cheers
Simon
Douglas Richardson
wrote:
<
< > So which daughter married Henry Denny, and which daughter married
< > Edward Greville? Was it Anne, Jane, or Elizabeth Grey? Same
woman,
< > or two women? What a tangled mess.
<
< > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
The correct answer to this question is found in the book, Our Parish
Registers: Being ... Waltham Holy Cross, by W. Winters (1885), page
33. This source may be found at the following webink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=cWEXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA100&dq=Edward+Greville+Harold+Park&lr=#PPA33,M1
Mr. Winters begins by stating that marriages of persons of rank often
occurred in the [Waltham] Abbey Church [in Essex] in the 16th and
17th Centuries. He then relates that Edward Grevill, of Harold's Park
"married the widow of Henry Denny, son and heir of Sir Henry Denny,
November 13, 1575. 'Mayster Edward Grevill and Elizabeth Denye.' A
marble effigy of Lady Greville is still preserved in the south aisle
of the church of Waltham, but the monument inscription has been long
destroyted." END OF QUOTE.
Thus, it would appear that Edward Greville married Elizabeth Grey,
widow of Henry Denny, just as stated by Brydges. This corrects/amends
Fletcher, as well as Notes and Queries.
wjhonson
> < On Jul 18, 3:48 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com>
> wrote:
> <
> < > So which daughter married Henry Denny, and which daughter married
> < > Edward Greville? Was it Anne, Jane, or Elizabeth Grey? Same
> woman,
> < > or two women? What a tangled mess.
> <
> < > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> The correct answer to this question is found in the book, Our Parish
> Registers: Being ... Waltham Holy Cross, by W. Winters (1885), page
> 33. This source may be found at the following webink:
>
>
> Mr. Winters begins by stating that marriages of persons of rank often
> occurred in the [Waltham] Abbey Church [in Essex] in the 16th and
> 17th Centuries. He then relates that Edward Grevill, of Harold's Park
> "married the widow of Henry Denny, son and heir of Sir Henry Denny,
> November 13, 1575. 'Mayster Edward Grevill and Elizabeth Denye.' A
> marble effigy of Lady Greville is still preserved in the south aisle
> of the church of Waltham, but the monument inscription has been long
> destroyted." END OF QUOTE.
>
> Thus, it would appear that Edward Greville married Elizabeth Grey,
> widow of Henry Denny, just as stated by Brydges. This corrects/amends
> Fletcher, as well as Notes and Queries.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Vis Norfolk has a vague echo of this union
http://books.google.com/books?id=HS8EAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA102&dq=Sir+%22henry+denny%22&as_brr=3
but they don't agree with the reconstruction.
It would appear likely that this Henry Denny "heir" (but heir
apparent) of his father must be another son, and the eldest, for
Honora Grey. Which would then make Honora, Henry Denny's only wife.
And the fictitious "Anne Grey" would then be assigned as wife to his
son and heir apparent also named Henry Denny.
So that would make sense as to why it got confused in the Vis.
The true echo would most likely be a marriage agreement or settlement
somewhere in A2A between the Denny and Grey families making this
clear....
Anyone? anyone? Class?
Will Johnson
Douglas Richardson
There is a full account of the Denny family, including Henry Denny, in
East Herts Arch. Soc. Trans. 3(2) (1906): 197–216. Here is the
weblink for that article (more specifically the page for Henry Denny):
http://books.google.com/books?id=iuAMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA214&dq=Henry+Denny+Elizabeth+Grey#PPA214,M1
This article states that Henry Denny, of Waltham, Essex (died 1574),
married (1st) Honora Grey, daughter of William, Lord Grey of Wilton,
by whom he had at least four children, and (2nd) Elizabeth Grey,
daughter of John Lord Grey, by whom he had one son, Henry, born 1572.
wjhonson
> Will ~
>
> There is a full account of the Denny family, including Henry Denny, in
> East Herts Arch. Soc. Trans. 3(2) (1906): 197–216. Here is the
> weblink for that article (more specifically the page for Henry Denny):
>
>
> This article states that Henry Denny, of Waltham, Essex (died 1574),
> married (1st) Honora Grey, daughter of William, Lord Grey of Wilton,
> by whom he had at least four children, and (2nd) Elizabeth Grey,
> daughter of John Lord Grey, by whom he had one son, Henry, born 1572.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
--------------------------
But that contradicts the last source you cited, which stated that the
husband Henry Denny was heir of his father Sir Henry Denny. The man
who married Honora Grey was the eldest son of Sir Arthur Denny. So
unless they can cite some underlying authority, this new source
doesn't seem any better at solving the situation.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
However Leo here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00232887&tree=LEO
citing Burke's extinct and also CP IX 768
states that Edward Denny, Earl of Norwich, and her son
was born on 15 Aug 1569 at Waltham.
So you see, it's still confused :)
Will Johnson
Douglas Richardson
The book, History of the Ancient Parish of Waltham Abbey, or Holy
Cross, by W. Winters (published 1888), pages 118–119 includes a
partial transcript of the monumental inscription for Elizabeth Grey,
wife successively of Henry Denny and Sir Edward Greville. This
material may be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=XTlAAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA118&dq=Grevill+Harold%27s+Park
The inscription confirms that Lady Elizabeth Greville was the daughter
of John Lord Grey.
Elsewhere, I note thatr there is the brief abstract of a letter
written in 1612 by Lady Elizabeth Greville from Harold's Park, Essex
to the Countess of Shrewsbury, which abstract is found in the A2A
Catalogue. This letter may be seen at the following weblink:
Douglas Richardson
Henry Denny, Esq. (died 1574) was married twice: (1st) to Honora Grey,
and (2nd) Elizabeth Grey. Elizabeth Grey survived him and married
(2nd) in 1575 Edward Greville, Knt. She allegedly died in 1619.
Curiously, though, the order of Henry Denny's two marriages is
reversed in Chauncy, Historical Antiquities of Hertfordshire, 2
(1826): 390–391. This material may be seen at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TBUHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA390&dq=thomas+astley+groom&lr=
jhigg...@yahoo.com
> < On Jul 18, 3:48 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com>
> wrote:
> <
> < > So which daughter married Henry Denny, and which daughter married
> < > Edward Greville? Was it Anne, Jane, or Elizabeth Grey? Same
> woman,
> < > or two women? What a tangled mess.
> <
> < > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> The correct answer to this question is found in the book, Our Parish
> Registers: Being ... Waltham Holy Cross, by W. Winters (1885), page
> 33. This source may be found at the following webink:
>
>
> Mr. Winters begins by stating that marriages of persons of rank often
> occurred in the [Waltham] Abbey Church [in Essex] in the 16th and
> 17th Centuries. He then relates that Edward Grevill, of Harold's Park
> "married the widow of Henry Denny, son and heir of Sir Henry Denny,
> November 13, 1575. 'Mayster Edward Grevill and Elizabeth Denye.' A
> marble effigy of Lady Greville is still preserved in the south aisle
> of the church of Waltham, but the monument inscription has been long
> destroyted." END OF QUOTE.
>
> Thus, it would appear that Edward Greville married Elizabeth Grey,
> widow of Henry Denny, just as stated by Brydges. This corrects/amends
> Fletcher, as well as Notes and Queries.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
This note, like several others by the same author in this thread,
apparently feels the need to "correct/amend" previous publications
which have now been determined to be in error. In fairness,
therefore, the record should also show that at least two other
previous publications also need to be "corrected/amended":
Richardson's RPA and MCA. Both of these worthy publications show the
wife of Sir Edward Greville (whose knighthood is overlooked in the
post above - an error "corrected/amended" later in the thread) as Jane
(not Elizabeth) Grey and don't mention her previous marriage to Henry
Denny.
And RPA and MCA both also say that Margaret the daughter of Sir [or
Lord] John Grey of Pirgo by Mary Browne married SIR Henry Capell.
This apparently represents two errors, since Margaret actually married
Sir Arthur Capell, and it's asserted earlier in this thread that Sir
Arthur's father was not in fact a knight.
Also, Fletcher's "Leicestershire Pedigrees" includes an additional
daughter for Sir [or Lord] John Grey of Pirgo named Frances, said by
Fletcher to have mar. Sir Henry Cooke of Gidea Hall. In fact, the
1558 visitation of Essex (HSP 13) indicates that her husband was
actually Sir William Cooke, later of Highnam, Gloucs, a younger son of
Sir Anthony Cooke of Gidea Hall. [This one, at least, was properly
recorded in MCA and RPA.]
John Briggs
Most people kept out out doctrinal disputes, but the events of Mary's reign,
when the authorities burned 300 Protestants (including the Archbishop of
Canterbury and three bishops), lost a Rome-directed Catholicism any sympathy
which it might otherwise have enjoyed.
You might do better to wonder at the situation in Scotland, where - as far
as I can tell - nobody persecuted anyone else, but the whole country became
Protestant almost overnight in 1560. The was no Dissolution of the
Monasteries there, but they simply evaporated.
--
John Briggs
SolomonW
@ntlworld.com says...
> You might do better to wonder at the situation in Scotland, where - as far
> as I can tell - nobody persecuted anyone else, but the whole country became
> Protestant almost overnight in 1560.
Indeed
Am I the only one that thinks this is incredible?
The only reason I can think of it is that everyone identified with the
local church not the Catholic faith.
> The was no Dissolution of the
> Monasteries there, but they simply evaporated.
>
My understanding is that most of the income of the Catholic church were
transferred to the nobleman and the rest went to the new Church.
us...@domain.invalid
It's not that simple. I have not studied it carefully, but there
certainly were families, such as my ancestors the Grants
of Ballindalloch who remained Catholic, and had problems because
of this.
Doug McDonald
SolomonW
Oh it never is so simple.
Matthew Connolly
[snip]
> Also, Fletcher's "Leicestershire Pedigrees" includes an additional
> daughter for Sir [or Lord] John Grey of Pirgo named Frances, said by
> Fletcher to have mar. Sir Henry Cooke of Gidea Hall. In fact, the
> 1558 visitation of Essex (HSP 13) indicates that her husband was
> actually Sir William Cooke, later of Highnam, Gloucs, a younger son of
> Sir Anthony Cooke of Gidea Hall. [This one, at least, was properly
> recorded in MCA and RPA.]
There's a tiny bit of confusion in the Essex Visitation account;
Frances Grey married William Cooke (c.1533-1589) of St Martin-in-the-
Fields, Westminster, who was indeed Sir Anthony's younger surviving
son but was not a knight. It was their son and heir William
(1572-1619) who was knighted and was the first of Highnam, *jure
uxoris*. Also, the visitation puts the elder William's child 'Francis'
with his sons, but I believe this is actually another daughter, named
after the mother. Both Williams have HoP entries.
Douglas Richardson
Essex was his wife from at least 1561 to 1569, as proven by several
fines published in the book, Feet of Fines for Essex, 5 (1991): 81,
91, 135, 143.
Henry Denny, Esq. subsequently left a will dated 22 March 1574, proved
5 July 1576, in which he named his [2nd] wife, Elizabeth [Reference:
Emmison, Elizabethan Life: Wills of Essex Gentry & Merchants (Essex
Rec. Office Pubs. 71) (1978): 79 (will of Henry Denny, Esq.)].
As I stated earlier, there was only one Henry Denny in this time
frame. He married (1st) Honor Grey and (2nd) Elizabeth Grey.
Matthew Connolly
wrote:
I had a look at various Cooke family wills last week, and the will of
William (d.1589) confirms that Frances was his youngest daughter, with
the other children as given in the above-mentioned visitation (the
printed version of which clearly contains several decades' worth of
continuations, not always wholly accurate).
In case it's of interest to the Grey discussion, there are the
folowing mentions of that family:
-The 1576 will of Sir Anthony Cooke of Gidea Hall (d.1576) mentions a
covenant with "my Ladye Graye" on the marriage of his younger son
William.
-The 1587 will of William Cooke, esquire (d.1589), in which he
describes himself as son of Sir Anthony of Gidea Hall, names "my very
good brother in Lawe Sr Henry Graye of Pirgo knight" as an executor,
and also refers to a christening gift given to the daughter Frances by
"my sister Graye".
-The 1607 will of Frances Cooke (d.1608), widow of the above William,
mentions "my brother Mr Edward Graye", "the right honorable my good
Ladye and mother the Ladye Mary Grey widow", and "my Sister Elizabeth
Ladye Grivell".
Frances desired to be buried with her late husband in the crypt of St
Martin-in-the-Fields; the present church is a later rebuild, but about
ten years ago I sketched a carved stone achievement of arms on display
in the crypt, among various fragments of the earlier structure, which
evidently showed the arms of William and Frances impaled. On the left
are Cooke of Gidea Hall, a crescent for difference, with 7 other
quarterings (including Malpas, Belknap, Boteler and Sudeley); on the
right, 8 quarterings which I read as Grey, Hastings, Valence, Ferrers,
Quincy, Wydville, Bonvile and Harington, over the top four a label,
probably of four points although the end of the label was missing and
only three points remained. The crypt has recently been restored and
the arms are no longer on show there, unfortunately.