Comminges and Carcassonne

[keri CA]

I thought I should start a new entry as you suggested earlier.

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 12:40:14 PM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> On 14-May-21 7:29 PM, keri CA wrote:
> > On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 5:39:50 AM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> >> On 14-May-21 9:09 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> >>> On 14-May-21 1:03 AM, keri CA wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >>>> Volvestre is quite a big area south of Toulouse, this charter sounds
> >>>> like it was some kind of court judgement at an assembly, if both
> >>>> a bishop and a viscount were present. Was the Arnald representing
> >>>> Count Raymond, later Count of Carcassonne?
> >>>
> >>> Arnald was the paternal grandfather of the Raimond who was later count
> >>> of Carcassonne - he was more probably representing Raimond (IV) of
> >>> Toulouse, the father-in-law-to-be of Adelais of Anjou. Arnald occurs in
> >>> his own charters dated April 945 and April 949 with no title, and in an
> >>> undated notice ca 940/50 mentioned in his official capacity with the
> >>> title count. He is usually assumed to have been count of Comminges but
> >
> > Yes this is what i was trying to mean but i wrote it badly. I think one of the
> > theories about the Raymonds suggests that it was a dispute over
> > control of this area - Carcassonne and Comminges - tarditionally
> > under Toulouse, with Roger the old was central to the story of what
> > happened in these obscure years of the late 10th century. Arnald
> > appears as a man of the Count of Toulouse not even a count, but his son is
> > independant and all powerful in the region, controlling even the
> > bishops and sees. As Roger first appears I think with his mother
> > Countess Arsinde, I wonder if she might be the key to all this. Was
> > she perhaps a member of the Toulouse or Rouergue family? I
> > think one of theories [Stasser?] suggests this.
> Stasser speculated that Arsinde was daughter of Ermengaud of Rouergue,
> but his argument for this was far from convincing to me - it was based
> on chronology that is not at all compellingly specific and on a pattern
> of onomastics that (if it was as highly plausible as he supposed in the
> first place) he failed to illustrate from any real and proven precedent.
> His rationale for setting aside the conventional scheme with Arsinde as
> heiress of the first dynasty of counts of Carcassonne was feeble: just
> that maybe Carcassonne was granted to her husband Arnald because heirs
> were lacking rather than passing to an heiress (again, failing to
> provide a similar example in 10th-century Languedoc), or that perhaps he
> was himself related to the former counts (but offering no onomastic
> support whatever for this unappetising portion of his conjectural dish).
>
> Paul Ourliac in 1955 suggested more persuasively that Arnald obtained
> Carcassonne through Arsinde, as Devic and Vaissette proposed, and that
> he had risen to comital rank in Comminges, like others elsewhere in the
> region, at the expense of the over-extended Raimondines.
> >>> this is not directly evidenced. At any rate, his appearance in n° 223
> >>> with bishop Raimond Aton allows for a guess that this man may have been
> >>> bishop of Comminges, not far from Volvestre. No bishop there appears to
> >>> be recorded by name between 880 and 990, so that Comminges appears a
> >>> possible diocese where any stray bishop in the region may have belonged
> >>> (including also the Hugo killed hunting for that matter).
> >> It is worth adding that Volvestre in the late-10th century belonged half
> >> with the county of Comminges and half with Couserans, both held in part
> >> or whole by Arnald's son Roger le Vieux of Carcassonne - in his
> >> testament written ca 1002 he left the moieties of Volvestre along with
> >> his share of these counties respectively to his elder son Raimond and to
> >> his widow and younger son Bernard ("Ego Rogerius comes facio brevem
> >> divisionalem inter filios meos Raimundo et Bernardo ... Et ipsam
> >> medietatem de Bulbastreso, et ipsa tertia parte de comitatu Cominico,
> >> remaneat ad te filio meo Raimundo ... Dono ipsum comitatu de Cosoragno
> >> cum ipso episcopato, et cum ipsa medietate de Bolbastreso ... dono ad
> >> Adalais uxor mea et Bernardo filio meo insimul".)
> >>
> >> The bishopric of Couserans controlled by Roger, apparently by
> >> inheritance from his father Arnald, is another plausible diocese for
> >> Raimond Aton in the mid-10th century - Gams (1931 edition) listed no
> >> bishop there between Roger in 887 and Bernard in 973.
> >
> > Yes both Couserans and Comminges are both possible, especially if there
> > are big gaps in the lists of bishops. Comminges is now famous for
> > St.Bertrand built on a hill above the old city destroyed by Guntram
> > armys 585, and Bishop Bertrand was WTs grandson I think. Nice
> > connection.
> Comminges is approximately as far from both Lézat and Volvestre as they
> both are from Toulouse, and Volvestre is roughly half-way between
> Commings and Couserans so that a partition between these counties under
> the primacy of Toulouse when Arnald was still the viguier and missus of
> a count Raimond is plausible enough. His assumption of the title count
> evidently occurred fairly near the end of his life, as he was dead by
> November 957 and perhaps some years before then. The only document
> naming him as count was dated to ca 950 by the editors of the Lézat
> cartulary in their introduction, to ca 940-50 in their note on the
> charter itself (from memory Devic and Vaissette had placed it ca 945).
> He used no title for himself in April 945 (not 944 as in HGL) or in
> April 949, so ca 950 seems preferable on this uncertain basis.

yes that seems quite possible but what proof is there that Arsinde
was linked to the earlier counts of carcassonne? They used names like
Acfred and Oliba which never appear in Rogers family. In French and Catalan
historigraphy this family is called the Bellonids, but there doesnt seem much
foundation in the sources for this dynasty. I wondered what the proof was that this family descended unbroken from a Goth called Bello [yes really!] in the 8th century, but I could only find a few definite links of relationships for this earlier family:

Oliba [II] Count 870/77 had a brother Acfred [I] in 873 who is presumed to be the count who appears at Carcassonne in 883 and had died by February 906 when his widow Adalinde enacts his last testament. They may have been related to an earlier Oliba [I] 820-35/7 who had 2 wives but doesnt mention any children. Acfred and Adalinde had a son Acfred who signs her charter
for Montolieu in 906. Another Count Acfred [II] also donates to Montolieu in 934 if that date is correct. However historians have traditionally seen Acfred son of Adalinde and Acfred as Duke Acfred of Aquitaine who names his parents in his will of October 927 and apparently died soon after. Duke Acfred had 2 older brothers William and Bernard but they do not appear in the 906 charter.

So this other Acfred [II] is usually seen as the son of Oliba [II], and Arsinde is supposed to be his daughter. At least I think this is how Settipani sees it.

kerica

[Peter Stewart]

On 16-May-21 7:46 PM, keri CA wrote:
> I thought I should start a new entry as you suggested earlier.
>
> On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 12:40:14 PM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

<snip>

>> Comminges is approximately as far from both Lézat and Volvestre as they
>> both are from Toulouse, and Volvestre is roughly half-way between
>> Commings and Couserans so that a partition between these counties under
>> the primacy of Toulouse when Arnald was still the viguier and missus of
>> a count Raimond is plausible enough. His assumption of the title count
>> evidently occurred fairly near the end of his life, as he was dead by
>> November 957 and perhaps some years before then. The only document
>> naming him as count was dated to ca 950 by the editors of the Lézat
>> cartulary in their introduction, to ca 940-50 in their note on the
>> charter itself (from memory Devic and Vaissette had placed it ca 945).
>> He used no title for himself in April 945 (not 944 as in HGL) or in
>> April 949, so ca 950 seems preferable on this uncertain basis.
>
> yes that seems quite possible but what proof is there that Arsinde
> was linked to the earlier counts of carcassonne? They used names like
> Acfred and Oliba which never appear in Rogers family.

There is no proof for the parentage of Arsinde, or for her inheritance
of Carcassonne, only conjecture.

I don't have time to spare at the moment for the further points raised
in your post, but to respond briefly to this one:

Hotshot historians of the onomastics school tend to suffer from the
delusion that naming rules, or at least firm patterns, held sway over
centuries and that by clever manipulation of these supposed rules they
can pinpoint new permutations in genealogy that will set up their
careers. They are mistaken. The follies this has led some of them into
are an embarrassment to scholarship.

Fashions in names, as in every other cultural phenomenon, change. The
counts of Barcelona, for instance, used the names Sunifred, Guifred and
Sunyer until the mid-10th century when these disappear from the agnatic
lineage in favour of Borrell, Ramon and Berenguer in various
combinations. They are not unique, not even unusual, in following
different trends and expressing new preferences in different times. The
Raimondines adopted Pons, the Capetians Philippe, with no ancestral
rhyme or reason.

A bigger and better-sourced book could be written about changing
practice in naming than about continuous customs.

The onomastics zealots suffer from a kind of tunnel-vision, studying a
few families in a region and imagining they know that the frequency or
rarity of names within them at any particular time have general
application beyond them - and that since they were somehow impervious to
fashions developing around them, also after them.

One example of the wrong-headedness of this, among very many, is the
short-lived craze for the name Humbeline, especially in the area around
Troyes and supposedly from a sister of St Bernard, in the 12th century.
Ditto, and on a much larger and longer scale, the sudden and lasting
popularity of Guillaume in parts of France from St Guilhem and later in
the Anglo-Norman world from William the Conqueror. Left to their own
devices, the onomasticists would no doubt try connecting all these men
named Guillaume into one unholy family. If they were presented with all
the individuals in any perfectly-proved lineage but deprived of all the
probative evidence, they would unfailingly come up with a speculative mess.

Peter Stewart

[taf]

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 3:50:32 AM UTC-7, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

> One example of the wrong-headedness of this, among very many,

At the risk of beating a caballo muerto, another flavor of this onomastic absurdity is the cherry-picking of desirable relationships based on all-too-common names. Example: Peterson when writing about the 11th century Basque nobleman Fortún Ochoiz concluded, in part, that since Ochoa is Basque for wolf, and hence is the same name as Lope, this man may have descended from the Banu Qasi, who used names Furtun and Lubb. The problem is that the Basques had a very limited pool of male names, Sancho, Garcia, Inigo, Jimeno, Aznar, and yes, Fortun and Lope, that probably accounted for more than 90% of Basque males. It would have been surprising if any random Basque family did not use the names Lope and Fortun at some point, and as such, these names are absolutely valueless in determining family origin.

For what its worth, the other two pillars of Peterson's hypothesis are equally misplaced - he suggests that since the place controlled by Fortún Ochoiz overlapped with the earlier Banu Qasi homeland and the Kingdom of Viguera, and since we know that some of the Banu Qasi converted, there may have been continuity with the converted retaining their lands. Except given the actual history of the Banu Qasi downfall, there is no reason to think they were converted in situ. Rather, there is every reason to think they would have fled the area to escape the intra- an inter-family struggles (and the ire of the Caliph), and further, given that the daughter of Sancho Ramirez of Viguera married a Fortún, even were one to argue for continuity, there is no reason it should be continuity with the Banu Qasi and not their geographical successors, the junior branch of the house of Abarca. This is all just wishful thinking dressed up as scholarship.

taf

[Peter Stewart]

On 17-May-21 7:14 AM, taf wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 3:50:32 AM UTC-7, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
>
>> One example of the wrong-headedness of this, among very many,
>
> At the risk of beating a caballo muerto, another flavor of this onomastic absurdity is the cherry-picking of desirable relationships based on all-too-common names. Example: Peterson when writing about the 11th century Basque nobleman Fortún Ochoiz concluded, in part, that since Ochoa is Basque for wolf, and hence is the same name as Lope, this man may have descended from the Banu Qasi, who used names Furtun and Lubb. The problem is that the Basques had a very limited pool of male names, Sancho, Garcia, Inigo, Jimeno, Aznar, and yes, Fortun and Lope, that probably accounted for more than 90% of Basque males. It would have been surprising if any random Basque family did not use the names Lope and Fortun at some point, and as such, these names are absolutely valueless in determining family origin.

I'm afraid the onomastics nag isn't quite dead yet - in French
feudal-era genealogy especially, the misguiding influence of Joseph
Depoin and Maurice Chaume is still in deleterious effect. These men were
highly knowledgeable but at least equally silly, and on the matter of
naming practice their many followers have been fooled by their knowledge
into trusting their (mis)judgement.

The limited pool of names is of course one aspect to which they haven't
given sufficient thought. Any male had only one name behind him in each
generation of his agnatic ancestry, and in order to be certain of
perpetuating a particular name it would need to be re-used within a few
generations at most. There was not a very common practice of repeating
the father's name for the eldest son at most times in most places -
otherwise, for instance, the Anglo-Norman sphere would have been filled
with men called William fitz William, Robert fitz Robert, Richard fitz
Richard, etc, which occur but are actually far from the anglo-norm.

We know - and even the most determined fanatics acknowledge - that names
were taken from distaff lines as well. Since we often have no idea how
many sisters anyone's mother may have had we can have no clue as to how
many other agnatic lineages were perhaps adopting the name-stock of her
family around the same time. Consequently all bets are void for
identifying exactly where a name came from that is not found in the
male-line before: this could be from a maternal grandparent, or from the
mother's maternal ancestry and so on. Yet onomastics buffs insist on
going straight to the most proximate and well-known relatives they can
postulate, every time.

Assuming that given names were usually derived from an ancestor within
the past three generations (i.e. no further back than a
great-grandparent), for any child there would be at most (i.e. with no
duplicates) four names of the same gender to choose from. But many
people of course had more than four sons or daughters. If all families
were bent on perpetuating names there would probably be no extra ones to
gain from great-great-grandparents or more remote known ancestors and
collaterals. What to do then? Names might be - and demonstrably were -
borrowed from saints, prelates, godparents, overlords or friends and
neighbours. They were also coined, even from anagrams as for instance
with twins named Nithard and Hartnid.

To take a modern example, one of my great-grandmothers had eight
daughters who had children. She was much loved, lived to her mid-90s
with nearly 100 living descendants and was always known by a childhood
nickname rather than one of her two given names. Of these, only the
second was ever used again in her family, for one of her daughters and
again for a great-great-granddaughter - but the latter was taken
coincidentally from a closer ancestor in another line. To insist that
this could not have happened in a medieval family is obtuse to the point
of absurdity: we have plenty of cases where names appeared out of the
blue and disappeared again into it within a generation or two, with no
hint of disrespect to the holder.

What would happen if, say, a family's leading name in dynastic terms was
Henry but the father of a new-born son had hated his paternal uncle of
that name: would he necessarily always feel obliged to forget a nasty
brute who had blighted his own childhood and yet honour his name by
passing it on? Would he feel compelled to go to the nearest monastery
and ask for his story to be recorded for future genealogists? Or might
he instead just break with custom and use an extraneous name that would
incidentally come to fox an onomastics whizz in centuries to come?

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 16-May-21 7:46 PM, keri CA wrote:

<snip>

> yes that seems quite possible but what proof is there that Arsinde
> was linked to the earlier counts of carcassonne? They used names like
> Acfred and Oliba which never appear in Rogers family. In French and Catalan
> historigraphy this family is called the Bellonids, but there doesnt seem much
> foundation in the sources for this dynasty. I wondered what the proof was that this family descended unbroken from a Goth called Bello [yes really!] in the 8th century, but I could only find a few definite links of relationships for this earlier family:
>
> Oliba [II] Count 870/77 had a brother Acfred [I] in 873 who is presumed to be the count who appears at Carcassonne in 883 and had died by February 906 when his widow Adalinde enacts his last testament. They may have been related to an earlier Oliba [I] 820-35/7 who had 2 wives but doesnt mention any children. Acfred and Adalinde had a son Acfred who signs her charter
> for Montolieu in 906. Another Count Acfred [II] also donates to Montolieu in 934 if that date is correct. However historians have traditionally seen Acfred son of Adalinde and Acfred as Duke Acfred of Aquitaine who names his parents in his will of October 927 and apparently died soon after. Duke Acfred had 2 older brothers William and Bernard but they do not appear in the 906 charter.
>
> So this other Acfred [II] is usually seen as the son of Oliba [II], and Arsinde is supposed to be his daughter. At least I think this is how Settipani sees it.

Yes, this Acfred II of Carcassonne was thought by Devic and Vaissette
(plausibly, but not definitely, in my view) to be the father of countess
Arsende the wife of Arnald I of Comminges.

We know from a charter of Peppin I of Aquitaine that Bello had been
count of Carcassonne with a son named Gisclafred. By 820, within a short
time after them, the count was named Oliba (I) and the -fred name
element recurs in his presumed descendants; a probable grandson of his
was named Bencio, perhaps a hypocorism from Bello (or vice versa, or
possibly both from a lost name form). Oliba I's wives were named
Emeltrude (Himiltrude) and Richilde and since we don't know their origin
(except that this was most probably Frankish) we can't know what names
either one may have brought into his family.

It is not certain from the charter of Adelinde in February 906 that her
deceased husband Acfred had been count or co-count of Carcassonne - she
mentioned the territory of Carcassonne and the county of Razès.

Acfred son of Adalinde was certainly the duke of Aquitaine following her
brother William the Pious, who named her son William as his nephew in
the foundation charter of Cluny in September 910, by when the younger
namesake was a count. Acfred named William the Pious as his uncle and
this younger William and Bernard as his brothers. Their relationships
are not just a tradition of historians.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 16-May-21 7:46 PM, keri CA wrote:

<snip>

> In French and Catalan
> historigraphy this family is called the Bellonids, but there doesnt seem much
> foundation in the sources for this dynasty. I wondered what the proof was that this family descended unbroken from a Goth called Bello [yes really!] in the 8th century

I overlooked this before - where are you finding Bello described as a
"Goth"? He is thought to have been a native magnate from Conflent, in
the north of the Pyrenees, within the region called Gothia. However,
that alternative name for Septimania was a holdover from the 5th century
and doesn't make its 8th-/9th-century inhabitants into ethnic Goths.

Peter Stewart

[keri CA]

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 12:23:17 AM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> On 16-May-21 7:46 PM, keri CA wrote:
> <snip>
> > yes that seems quite possible but what proof is there that Arsinde
> > was linked to the earlier counts of carcassonne? They used names like
> > Acfred and Oliba which never appear in Rogers family. In French and Catalan
> > historigraphy this family is called the Bellonids, but there doesnt seem much
> > foundation in the sources for this dynasty. I wondered what the proof was that this family descended unbroken from a Goth called Bello [yes really!] in the 8th century, but I could only find a few definite links of relationships for this earlier family:
> >
> > Oliba [II] Count 870/77 had a brother Acfred [I] in 873 who is presumed to be the count who appears at Carcassonne in 883 and had died by February 906 when his widow Adalinde enacts his last testament. They may have been related to an earlier Oliba [I] 820-35/7 who had 2 wives but doesnt mention any children. Acfred and Adalinde had a son Acfred who signs her charter
> > for Montolieu in 906. Another Count Acfred [II] also donates to Montolieu in 934 if that date is correct. However historians have traditionally seen Acfred son of Adalinde and Acfred as Duke Acfred of Aquitaine who names his parents in his will of October 927 and apparently died soon after. Duke Acfred had 2 older brothers William and Bernard but they do not appear in the 906 charter.
> >
> > So this other Acfred [II] is usually seen as the son of Oliba [II], and Arsinde is supposed to be his daughter. At least I think this is how Settipani sees it.
> Yes, this Acfred II of Carcassonne was thought by Devic and Vaissette
> (plausibly, but not definitely, in my view) to be the father of countess
> Arsende the wife of Arnald I of Comminges.
>
> We know from a charter of Peppin I of Aquitaine that Bello had been
> count of Carcassonne with a son named Gisclafred. By 820, within a short
> time after them, the count was named Oliba (I) and the -fred name
> element recurs in his presumed descendants; a probable grandson of his
> was named Bencio, perhaps a hypocorism from Bello (or vice versa, or
> possibly both from a lost name form). Oliba I's wives were named
> Emeltrude (Himiltrude) and Richilde and since we don't know their origin
> (except that this was most probably Frankish) we can't know what names
> either one may have brought into his family.

I notice that a Count Dello who appears in a charter of Pippin I 3-9-838 is
listed as count of Carcassonne on the net, and he had a son called Gisclafred,
which might suggest a relationship. The names Bencio and Dela also appear
in the counts of Empuries.

>
> It is not certain from the charter of Adelinde in February 906 that her
> deceased husband Acfred had been count or co-count of Carcassonne - she
> mentioned the territory of Carcassonne and the county of Razès.
>
> Acfred son of Adalinde was certainly the duke of Aquitaine following her
> brother William the Pious, who named her son William as his nephew in
> the foundation charter of Cluny in September 910, by when the younger
> namesake was a count. Acfred named William the Pious as his uncle and
> this younger William and Bernard as his brothers. Their relationships
> are not just a tradition of historians.
>

Yes indeed. I was not questioning Duke Acfreds relationship to William the Pious,
but my query was whether the Acfred and Adalinde in the Montolieu
charter 906 were the same as the parents of Duke Acfred and whether he was
the Acfred son of Acfred who signs the 906 charter. Does Duke Acfred
in his will leave anything to Montolieu or list any property in the area
south of Toulouse for example, which would establish a connection between
the duke and that area.

I took the liberty to paste this here to avoid posting twice

>I overlooked this before - where are you finding Bello described as a
>"Goth"? He is thought to have been a native magnate from Conflent, in
>the north of the Pyrenees, within the region called Gothia. However,
>that alternative name for Septimania was a holdover from the 5th century
>and doesn't make its 8th-/9th-century inhabitants into ethnic Goths.

Bello is called a goth many places on the net probably because wiki calls
him so;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellonids

as the refs list Martin Aurell, "Les noces du comte: Mariage et
pouvoir en Catalogne (785-1213), does he not call him a Goth?

Surely some of the population in Gothia were Goths? I believe Benedict
of Aniane [d821] was said to be originally a visigoth called Witiza son
of the count of Maguelonne, who was sent to be brought up at the
Frankish court. There must have been other visigoth noble families
who survived into the 9th century and perhaps beyond.

kerica

[Peter Stewart]

I don't know where you have come across "Dello" - Pippin I's original
charter can be viewed here

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b525108711/f64.item.r=8837

The name appears as "bellone", on the 8th line about two thirds across
the folio just before the white mark in the parchment.

I suspect that the name Bencio may be a hypocorism for Bencelin, and
perhaps Bello is as well though this is far from certain in both cases.

The name Oliba, of Bello's next successor after his son Gisclafred, and
probable younger son, occurs in the family of the counts of Barcelona -
one theory is that their ancestor Sunifred was a third son of Bello,
another that Sunifred's wife Ermessenda was Bello's daughter. One way or
the other, Sunifred's son Miro named a Bello as his grandfather and this
man is the only apparent candidate.

By the way, Martin Aurell misstated details for two records of
Ermessenda - first, the date of a charter of her children evidently
written soon after her death and dated in April or May of the year
emperor Charles died. Devic and Vaissette in their original edition
ascribed this to Charles the Fat who died in January 888, but it more
probably refers to Charles the Bald who died in October 877 as
interpreted in the new edition of HGL, dating the charter to May 878,
which Aurell actually cited. I suppose his rationale for silently
changing it was that he supposed Ermessenda had been still living in
885, but this too is due to a misdating and her last occurrence was
actually on 1 December 877 (not 885 or 898 as variously proposed until
corrected by Bénoni Colomer in the early 1920s, overlooked until
repeated by Pierre Ponsich in the 1990s and in his and Ramon Ordeig's
*Catalunya carolíngia* vol VI (2006). On this evidence, Ermessenda died
between 1 December 877 and May 878.

>> It is not certain from the charter of Adelinde in February 906 that her
>> deceased husband Acfred had been count or co-count of Carcassonne - she
>> mentioned the territory of Carcassonne and the county of Razès.
>>
>> Acfred son of Adalinde was certainly the duke of Aquitaine following her
>> brother William the Pious, who named her son William as his nephew in
>> the foundation charter of Cluny in September 910, by when the younger
>> namesake was a count. Acfred named William the Pious as his uncle and
>> this younger William and Bernard as his brothers. Their relationships
>> are not just a tradition of historians.
>>
>
> Yes indeed. I was not questioning Duke Acfreds relationship to William the Pious,
> but my query was whether the Acfred and Adalinde in the Montolieu
> charter 906 were the same as the parents of Duke Acfred and whether he was
> the Acfred son of Acfred who signs the 906 charter. Does Duke Acfred
> in his will leave anything to Montolieu or list any property in the area
> south of Toulouse for example, which would establish a connection between
> the duke and that area.

I don't recall - it's in *Grand cartulaire du chapitre Saint-Julien de
Brioude* (1935) but I can't get hold of this until tomorrow. Presumably
it is also in *Cartulaire de Brioude* (1863) that could be found online.

> I took the liberty to paste this here to avoid posting twice
>
>> I overlooked this before - where are you finding Bello described as a
>> "Goth"? He is thought to have been a native magnate from Conflent, in
>> the north of the Pyrenees, within the region called Gothia. However,
>> that alternative name for Septimania was a holdover from the 5th century
>> and doesn't make its 8th-/9th-century inhabitants into ethnic Goths.
>
> Bello is called a goth many places on the net probably because wiki calls
> him so;
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellonids
>
> as the refs list Martin Aurell, "Les noces du comte: Mariage et > pouvoir en Catalogne (785-1213), does he not call him a Goth?

I doubt it, but I'm not energetic enough to look up all 12 occurrences
in the index. There is no particular reason I can see to suppose that
Bello was a Goth - Pippin the Short left some ethnic Visigoths in
authority, but Charlemagne replaced most of them with Franks. Bello was
a count under him.

> Surely some of the population in Gothia were Goths? I believe Benedict
> of Aniane [d821] was said to be originally a visigoth called Witiza son
> of the count of Maguelonne, who was sent to be brought up at the
> Frankish court. There must have been other visigoth noble families
> who survived into the 9th century and perhaps beyond.

Borrell of Osona, another candidate for the father of Sunifred, is said
to have been a Visigoth, but Bello has been more prominent in the
literature because many historians over the past century have followed
Ramon d'Abadal in making him the agnatic ancestor of the counts of
Barcelona. Abadal wrote a paean about Spanish kings from the houses of
Aragon, Hapsburg and Borbon all having been Bello's descendants. I
expect we would hear more about it than scattered internet references if
he was generally considered a Visigoth.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 17-May-21 11:58 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 17-May-21 10:42 PM, keri CA wrote:

<snip>

> I suspect that the name Bencio may be a hypocorism for Bencelin, and
> perhaps Bello is as well though this is far from certain in both cases.

I should have written that I suspect Bencio, and perhaps also Bello, may
have been derived from the same proper name as the diminutive Bencelin.

> By the way, Martin Aurell misstated details for two records of
> Ermessenda - first, the date of a charter of her children evidently
> written soon after her death and dated in April or May of the year
> emperor Charles died. Devic and Vaissette in their original edition
> ascribed this to Charles the Fat who died in January 888, but it more
> probably refers to Charles the Bald who died in October 877 as
> interpreted in the new edition of HGL, dating the charter to May 878,
> which Aurell actually cited. I suppose his rationale for silently
> changing it was that he supposed Ermessenda had been still living in
> 885, but this too is due to a misdating and her last occurrence was
> actually on 1 December 877 (not 885 or 898 as variously proposed until
> corrected by Bénoni Colomer in the early 1920s, overlooked until
> repeated by Pierre Ponsich in the 1990s and in his and Ramon Ordeig's
> *Catalunya carolíngia* vol VI (2006). On this evidence, Ermessenda died
> between 1 December 877 and May 878.

On reflection I think Aurell was right to change the year back to 888 as
originally given by Devic and Vaissette, though not so much in doing
this silently - perhaps he meant to cite only the text of the charter in
the revised edition while ignoring the editorial gloss on its dating.

Anyway, the interpretation that the deceased emperor Charles was
probably Charles the Bald (died October 877) rather than Charles the Fat
(overthrown November 887, died January 888) does not withstand the
context in the document. This says (as edited in *Recueil des chartes de
l'abbaye de La Grasse* vol i (1996), also ascribing it to 878): "Facta
haec [carta ...] oppositionis nostrae [...] madii, anno quod obiit
Karolus imperator, [Christo?] regnante, rege expectante". There is no
apparent basis for "oppositionis nostrae" and "rege expectante" after
the death of Charles the Bald, when he was succeeded hereditarily by his
son Louis the Stammerer who had already been king of Aquitaine for a
decade. However, after the deposition and death of Charles the Fat the
non-Carolingian Eudes was crowned in February 888. Loyalty to the old
dynasty was persistent in Languedoc, as evidenced by similar dating
clauses in later "usurpations" - for example, when Raoul of Burgundy was
displacing Charles the Simple ("anno V quo Franci deinhonestaverunt
regem suum Carolum et contra legem elegerunt Radulfum sibi in regem" in
the testament of Acfred discussed below) and after the coronation of
Hugo Capet ("Deo regnante, regeque sperante").

On the evidence it is safer to place the death of Ermessenda after 1
December 877 (that revised dating is bomb-proof) and May 888.

<snip>

>> Does Duke Acfred
>> in his will leave anything to Montolieu or list any property in the area
>> south of Toulouse for example, which would establish a connection between
>> the duke and that area.
>
> I don't recall - it's in *Grand cartulaire du chapitre Saint-Julien de
> Brioude* (1935) but I can't get hold of this until tomorrow. Presumably
> it is also in *Cartulaire de Brioude* (1863) that could be found online.

Definitely nothing south of Toulouse - all the localities specified in
Acfred's testament (dated 11 October 927, shortly after he became duke
of Aquitaine) are now in the south-central departments of Puy-de-Dôme,
Cantal, Lozère and Haute-Loire. There is no bequest to Montolieu - the
only loose connection I can see is that Acfred was lay abbot of
Saint-Julien de Brioude, in the 930s Dalmace was abbot there, and an
abbot named Dalmace interceded for Montolieu in June 932. I don't think
much can be determined from any of this regarding the ancestry of
Acfred's father.

By the way, Antoni Rovira in 1925 had the odd idea that the name Acfred
was a form of Guifred, linking him onomastically to Wifred of Barcelona.
The citation he gave for this was to the index of a book by Ferdinand
Lot, referencing under Acfred the entry for Effroy. Such are the trials
of reading secondary literature ...

<snip>

>> Bello is called a goth many places on the net probably because wiki calls
>> him so;
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellonids
>>
>> as the refs list Martin Aurell, "Les noces du comte: Mariage et >
>> pouvoir en Catalogne (785-1213), does he not call him a Goth?
>
> I doubt it, but I'm not energetic enough to look up all 12 occurrences
> in the index.

Aurell does not explicitly describe Bello as a Goth as far as I have
looked, but seems to imply this when he calls him "un magnat autochone"
from Conflent and speculates that he was closely related to Bera I whose
son Guillemó was "le responsable de la révolte gothiciste de 826".

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 18-May-21 12:03 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

> On the evidence it is safer to place the death of Ermessenda after 1
> December 877 (that revised dating is bomb-proof) and May 888.

My fingers forgot to type "and _before_ May 888" as intended.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 17-May-21 11:58 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

> On 17-May-21 10:42 PM, keri CA wrote:

<snip>

>> I notice that a Count Dello who appears in a charter of Pippin I
>> 3-9-838 is
>> listed as count of Carcassonne on the net, and he had a son called
>> Gisclafred,
>> which might suggest a relationship. The names Bencio and Dela also appear
>> in the counts of Empuries.
>
> I don't know where you have come across "Dello" - Pippin I's original
> charter can be viewed here
>
> https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b525108711/f64.item.r=8837
>
> The name appears as "bellone", on the 8th line about two thirds across
> the folio just before the white mark in the parchment.

The misreading of his name as Dello goes back to the original edition of
Devic and Vaissette's HGL, if not further - a footnote by Auguste
Molinier in the revised edition, vol II (1875) preuves col. 208
corrected this: "Le texte porte certaimement Bellone; D. Vaissete & la
plupart des anciens éditeurs avaient lu Dellone; c'est la seule fois que
le mom de ce comte paraît dams les textes."

I don't know how Vaissette managed to transcribe "omnibus" on the same
line before "bellone" without realising that b is written identically in
both words.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 18-May-21 12:03 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 17-May-21 11:58 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > On 17-May-21 10:42 PM, keri CA wrote:

<snip>

>>> Bello is called a goth many places on the net probably because wiki
>>> calls
>>> him so;
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellonids
>>>
>>> as the refs list Martin Aurell, "Les noces du comte: Mariage et >
>>> pouvoir en Catalogne (785-1213), does he not call him a Goth?
>>
>> I doubt it, but I'm not energetic enough to look up all 12 occurrences
>> in the index.
>
> Aurell does not explicitly describe Bello as a Goth as far as I have
> looked, but seems to imply this when he calls him "un magnat autochone"
> from Conflent and speculates that he was closely related to Bera I whose
> son Guillemó was "le responsable de la révolte gothiciste de 826".

Aurell did explicitly describe the Bellonids as "une famille de
l'aristocratie gothique pyrénéenne" in a 1998 article, (Pouvoir et
parenté des comtes de la marche hispanique in *La royauté et les élites
dans l'Europe carolingienne*, edited by Régine Le Jan). He cited for
this a short article by Ramon d'Abadal published in 1957 that I haven't
seen, but elsewhere Abadal wrote that not enough is known to be sure if
Bello was a Visigothic magnate retaining his family's position in
Conflent under Muslim domination and left in authority after the
conquest of Septimania by Peppin the Short in 759 or if he was appointed
in one of Charlemagne’s reorganistions of government in Aquitaine.

This doubt seems more judicious to me, whether or not Abadal meant that
his ancestry was Visigothic either way. For all we know Bello may have
regarded himself as a Gaul or a Frank - this French wiki page
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bello_de_Carcassonne bizarrely suggests
that he may have been a son of Leuthard of Fezensac, a Frank from the
highest aristocracy, whose wife was named Grimhild. Goodness knows (and
maybe doesn't care) where this came from, or the name "Nimilde" for his
supposed wife.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 19-May-21 2:08 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

> The misreading of his name as Dello goes back to the original edition of
> Devic and Vaissette's HGL, if not further - a footnote by Auguste
> Molinier in the revised edition, vol II (1875) preuves col. 208
> corrected this: "Le texte porte certaimement Bellone; D. Vaissete & la
> plupart des anciens éditeurs avaient lu Dellone; c'est la seule fois que
> le mom de ce comte paraît dams les textes."
>
> I don't know how Vaissette managed to transcribe "omnibus" on the same
> line before "bellone" without realising that b is written identically in
> both words.

Perhaps it was from the same degree of inattention that led me to
copy-paste "dams les texts" without fixing it to "dans ...". Aberrant
letters are a harmless curse, but no doubt a gremlin rejoices every time
nonetheless.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 18-May-21 12:03 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 17-May-21 11:58 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

<snip>

With the correction that Ermessenda was dead by May 888, there can be
little doubt that this was indeed the correct year for the charter
ascribed to 878 in several editions that I - unlike Martin Aurell - had
unwisely followed.

In 'La datation des documents catalans du IXe au XIIe siècle', *Annales
du Midi* 93 (1981) p. 351, Michel Zimmermann cited (in reverse order)
two contemporary documents with very similar dating clauses:

1. A charter of Servus Dei, bishop of Girona, dated 15 December 888
("anno ab incarnatione Domini DCCCLXXXVIII. in mense Decembrio die
decimo quinto, Christo regnante, dono ejusdem Regem expectante"), and

2. The consecration of the abbey church of Saint Esteve de Banyoles
dated 1 March 889 ("Anno incarnationis dominicæ DCCCLXXXVIIII.
Indictione quinta ... Facta hæc carta confirmationis Kalendas Martias
anno secundo quo mortuus est Karolus imperator, regnante Domino nostro
Iesu Christo, nobis autem expectante Rege ab ipso largitore").

Peter Stewart

[keri CA]

I was wondering about this, because the only solid fact i've found is that he
was listed in a letter [without what city he governed] along with all the other
counts of the region from Charlemagne in 778 when he invaded Spain, and
Pippins charter of 838 when he confirms the ownerships of some properties
belonging to Lagrasse near Carcassonne whose bounderies had been
determined by Count Bello and his son Gisclafred. Gisclafred is also mentioned
in another charter of Pippin I of Aquitaine in 829 for St.Hilaire sur Lauquet
also near Carcassonne. I'm not sure if he gave the properties to the emperor
and the king gave them to the abbey, or some other way round. However
I assume that both were dead by 838 and probably 829 as well as Oliba [I]
seems in control then.

I should have guessed Dello was a misread, but although I can see this
writing is an improvement on merovingian script, i still can barely make out anything.
I can see why its called carolingian miniscule but as theres plenty of space on
the page, they really should have written bigger and cut out all the stylised
squiggles.

> This doubt seems more judicious to me, whether or not Abadal meant that
> his ancestry was Visigothic either way. For all we know Bello may have
> regarded himself as a Gaul or a Frank - this French wiki page
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bello_de_Carcassonne bizarrely suggests
> that he may have been a son of Leuthard of Fezensac, a Frank from the
> highest aristocracy, whose wife was named Grimhild. Goodness knows (and
> maybe doesn't care) where this came from, or the name "Nimilde" for his
> supposed wife.
>
> Peter Stewart

When you say a Gaul, do you mean a gallo roman?

Is a better guide of identity what law code they used? I've read they used
the visigothic code in the Spanish march across the pyrenees, now
catalonia, and the two marches Spain and Gothia were sometimes
joined together under 1 chief like Bernard of Septimania. If they
used visigoth law north of the pyrenees as well, it was presumably
because there were still important landowners who claimed a gothic
heritage but after Pippin the Shorts conquest, they may have
gradually assimilated like Benedict. However many christians seem
to have fled from islamic spain north to the Franksih kingdom, who
called them hispani and they seemed to have been granted the right
to use their own law.

I think Bernards predecessor, Bera is also described as a goth, but i dont
know in what source, and he was [i've read on the net!] also the founder of another
family, the counts of Razes [supposedly]. The thing is when i look
for the references, in secondary works, those who the authors call goths
or visigoths, often appear as _hispani_ in the texts. There is the assumption
that anyone fleeing from spain in the 8th and 9th is therefore a visigoth,
even though that regime finished in 711. I dont know it this is a reasonable
inference but they often reference d'Abadels works [i dont read spanish],
and the fact that the Visigoth law code continued to be used.

Acfred appears in the docs written also as Aifred, Aquifred, Agfred; is this the
same name as Egfrid just spelt different due to local accents?

A lot of the net mentions of Comminges in the 10-11th reference a book or
an article on the Counts of Comminges by Charles Higounet [in french]. I havnt found
it so far, but as it was 1949, it might have been superceded, but I was wondering
if he had a theory about the identities of Arnald and Arsinde and the formation
of an independant principality under Roger the Old.

kerica

[keri CA]

or catalan, although it looks a bit like french

kerica

[Peter Stewart]

On 20-May-21 4:23 AM, keri CA wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 19, 2021 at 3:20:28 PM UTC+1, keri CA wrote:

<snip>

>> When you say a Gaul, do you mean a gallo roman?

Yes, sorry - endless hours as a schoolboy plodding through Caesar's
account of conquering Gaul has fixed this anachronistic term in my brain.

>> Is a better guide of identity what law code they used? I've read they used
>> the visigothic code in the Spanish march across the pyrenees, now
>> catalonia, and the two marches Spain and Gothia were sometimes
>> joined together under 1 chief like Bernard of Septimania. If they
>> used visigoth law north of the pyrenees as well, it was presumably
>> because there were still important landowners who claimed a gothic
>> heritage but after Pippin the Shorts conquest, they may have
>> gradually assimilated like Benedict. However many christians seem
>> to have fled from islamic spain north to the Franksih kingdom, who
>> called them hispani and they seemed to have been granted the right
>> to use their own law.

The Visigothic legal code was based on Roman law, not very different
from the system in Occitanian Carcassonne before the Muslim incursion
ther. We have no idea whether Bello adhered to it or not. His successors
were loyal to Frankish rule when Visigoths rebelled against it. The fact
that he held possessions in Conflent, south of Carcassonne, does not
necessarily mean that he was from a family native to the region, as he
became count under Charlemagne with the same opportunity as other
appointees to acquire property from the royal fisc or by purchase or
direct confiscation.

>> I think Bernards predecessor, Bera is also described as a goth, but i dont
>> know in what source, and he was [i've read on the net!] also the founder of another
>> family, the counts of Razes [supposedly]. The thing is when i look
>> for the references, in secondary works, those who the authors call goths
>> or visigoths, often appear as _hispani_ in the texts. There is the assumption
>> that anyone fleeing from spain in the 8th and 9th is therefore a visigoth,
>> even though that regime finished in 711. I dont know it this is a reasonable
>> inference but they often reference d'Abadels works [i dont read spanish],
>> and the fact that the Visigoth law code continued to be used.

Bera held Razès, between Carcassonne and Conflent, and he was described
as a Goth ("Gothus") and as prince of the Goths ("Bero princeps ille
Gothorum") by Ermold le Noir writing in 826. His son was the man
described by Aurell (upthread) as leading the Visigothic revolt in that
year.

> or catalan, although it looks a bit like french

Ramon d'Abadal wrote mostly in Catalan, with a few publications in
French and Spanish. He was a very influential historian, but not quite
immune himself to the influence of Antoni Rovira who was a journalist
writing history with a political agenda. Catalan pride and a
determination to make the comital dynasty of Barcelona into agnatic
descendants of Bello (that is plausible but not definite) coloured their
view of Bello's origin to some extent.

The name Bello is a mystery. It may be a hypocorism derived, like that
of his younger contemporary Bego who was count in Toulouse from 806,
from an undetermined proper name. Bego, which may be the same name as
Bico, was perhaps derived from Berenger but this is very far from
certain. Bello was possibly a nickname from Bencelin, which in turn may
have been a diminutive of Bencio that was the name of Bello's presumed
great-grandson, also count of Carcassonne.

What we don't know should never be substituted with what we would like
to believe, or we could all end up wearing MAGA hats and bashing each
other with assorted Trump paraphernalia.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 20-May-21 12:20 AM, keri CA wrote:

<snip>

> I should have guessed Dello was a misread, but although I can see this
> writing is an improvement on merovingian script, i still can barely make out anything.
> I can see why its called carolingian miniscule but as theres plenty of space on
> the page, they really should have written bigger and cut out all the stylised
> squiggles.

Like other medieval scripts, it's not as hard as it first seems once you
get used to it. This charter is a fairly extreme version, and not
perfectly clear in the Gallica scan, but still clear enough to see that
the name starts with b. I wonder if Vaissette just miswrote Dello when
he intended Bello, and then forgot to correct it.

<snip>

> Acfred appears in the docs written also as Aifred, Aquifred, Agfred; is this the
> same name as Egfrid just spelt different due to local accents?

Ferdinand Lot and other French historians preferred Effroy for Acfred,
but only Antoni Rovira inanely thought this meant the name was the same
as Wifred.

> A lot of the net mentions of Comminges in the 10-11th reference a book or
> an article on the Counts of Comminges by Charles Higounet [in french]. I havnt found
> it so far, but as it was 1949, it might have been superceded, but I was wondering
> if he had a theory about the identities of Arnald and Arsinde and the formation
> of an independant principality under Roger the Old.

Higounet's work is still valuable. He wrote that nothing was known about
the origin of Arnald, except that it was not possible to attach him
definitely to the Gascon family of the Aznars and that it was pure
conjecture to make him a descendant of Oliba II of Carcassonne. In his
view Arsinde was probably daughter of Oliba II's son Acfred II.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 20-May-21 8:24 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:

<snip>

> The Visigothic legal code was based on Roman law, not very different
> from the system in Occitanian Carcassonne before the Muslim incursion
> ther. We have no idea whether Bello adhered to it or not. His successors
> were loyal to Frankish rule when Visigoths rebelled against it. The fact
> that he held possessions in Conflent, south of Carcassonne, does not
> necessarily mean that he was from a family native to the region, as he
> became count under Charlemagne with the same opportunity as other
> appointees to acquire property from the royal fisc or by purchase or
> direct confiscation.

The start of this came out badly - I meant that the legal system in
Carcassonne before the Muslim incursion was not very different from
Roman law, not from the Visigothic code.

It seems to me implausible - not impossible though - that Bello was a
Visigothic count in Carcassonne with possessions in Conflent, bordering
on two sides with Razès held by Bera the "prince of the Goths" with
Borrell, another Visigoth, holding Cerdagne and Osona, as in that case
Charlemagne would have been leaving in place a contiguous bloc of
Visigoth-ruled countships close to Toulouse and forming a territorial
wedge between it and Barcelona.

A more likely scenario to me is that Bello was appointed as a Frankish
check on his less reliable neighbours, who perhaps married a relative of
Bera and whose child (Sunifred or Ermessenda) was married to a child
(one or other of the same couple) of Borrell.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 20-May-21 12:20 AM, keri CA wrote:

> On Wednesday, May 19, 2021 at 5:29:35 AM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

<snip>

>> Aurell did explicitly describe the Bellonids as "une famille de
>> l'aristocratie gothique pyrénéenne" in a 1998 article, (Pouvoir et
>> parenté des comtes de la marche hispanique in *La royauté et les élites
>> dans l'Europe carolingienne*, edited by Régine Le Jan). He cited for
>> this a short article by Ramon d'Abadal published in 1957 that I haven't
>> seen, but elsewhere Abadal wrote that not enough is known to be sure if
>> Bello was a Visigothic magnate retaining his family's position in
>> Conflent under Muslim domination and left in authority after the
>> conquest of Septimania by Peppin the Short in 759 or if he was appointed
>> in one of Charlemagne’s reorganistions of government in Aquitaine.
>>
>
> I was wondering about this, because the only solid fact i've found is that he
> was listed in a letter [without what city he governed] along with all the other
> counts of the region from Charlemagne in 778 when he invaded Spain

I overlooked this before - where did you find a letter from Charlemagne
written in 778?

Peter Stewart

[keri CA]

I read this on a french website that Bello was one of the counts who was
addressed by Charlemagne and ordered to furnish contingents for the army
which they assume was for the invasion of spain in 778, so I thought it must
be a letter but the reference was Cros Meyreveille 1846. But when I looked
him up on gallica all I got was a piece by him in the carcassonne paper sayin
how much he was affected by peoples condolences after his wife died ):
Bello seems a very rare name, unique maybe.

kerica

[Peter Stewart]

This is apparently an onion formed by rings of misunderstanding -

Cros-Mayrevieille published the first volume of his *Histoire du comté
et de la vicomté de Carcassonne* in 1846, in which he described Bello as
the first Frankish count of Carcassonne appointed by Charlemagne after
778, p. 130 "Bellon est le premier comte frank qui a gouverné
Carcassonne" and ibid note 3: "Bellon ... paraît dans les diplômes
postérieurement à l'année 778, et antérieurement à l'année 812", see here:

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_LszsLGLr-fQC/page/n137/mode/1up.

The first of the documents Cros-Mayrevieille printed in an appendix was
a charter of Charlemagne he ascribed to 778. This has nothing to do with
mustering an army - it is a confirmation of the gifts made to La Grasse
abbey, of which the original is still extant, probably correctly dated
19 January 779, see here:

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_LszsLGLr-fQC/page/n260/mode/1up

and (better, with a facsimile) here:

http://telma.irht.cnrs.fr/outils/originaux/charte3769/.

The first document referenced Cros-Mayrevieille for Bello as count of
Carcassonne was addressed by Charlemagne to the counts of the Spanish
march on 2 April 812, about providing for refugees from Spain under
their authority in Septimania. Bello is not named - the eight counts
addressed, without territorial designations, were headed by Bera (of
Razès) and the third was Gisclafred (of Carcassonne, i.e. the son and
successor of Bello). Cros-Mayrevieille meant this as proof that Bello
had been count after 778 and before 812, see here:

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_LszsLGLr-fQC/page/n266/mode/1up

and (better) here:

https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_karol_i/index.htm#page/289/mode/1up.

There is no letter I can find from Charlemagne written in 778 or at any
other time summoning contingents for an invasion of Spain. He wrote to
the pope about it in advance of the 778 campaign, but his letter is lost
and the reply does not substantiate the claim that counts may have been
listed, with or without Bello among them. There is nothing at all in
*Regesta imperii* to account for this idea.

I found a peculiar reference in Jonathan Jarrett's 'Settling the kings'
lands: aprisio in Catalonia in perspective', *Early Medieval Europe* 18
(2010) p. 323 note 9: "Charlemagne apparently sent letters to
Muslim-held cities of the March encouraging sedition prior to his 778
campaign", citing 'Einharti Epistolae' in *Epistolae Karolini Aevi* III
(1899; repr. 1995), no. 12, which is actually a letter from Louis I to
the people of Mérida written 828/32, probably at the beginning of 830,
see here:

https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_epp_5/index.htm#page/114/mode/1up

and for more recent citations here:

https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_ldf_2/index.htm#page/1224/mode/1up.

I can only guess that Jarrett had read something similar to whatever
appears on the French webpage you found, but preferred not to cite it
and imagined he had supplied its basis in a letter written by Einhard
for Charlemagne's successor that he did cannot have studied with even
minimal care.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 20-May-21 8:24 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:

> On 20-May-21 4:23 AM, keri CA wrote:

<snip>

>>> I think Bernards predecessor, Bera is also described as a goth, but i
>>> dont
>>> know in what source, and he was [i've read on the net!] also the
>>> founder of another
>>> family, the counts of Razes [supposedly]. The thing is when i look
>>> for the references, in secondary works, those who the authors call goths
>>> or visigoths, often appear as _hispani_ in the texts. There is the
>>> assumption
>>> that anyone fleeing from spain in the 8th and 9th is therefore a
>>> visigoth,
>>> even though that regime finished in 711. I dont know it this is a
>>> reasonable
>>> inference but they often reference d'Abadels works [i dont read
>>> spanish],
>>> and the fact that the Visigoth law code continued to be used.
>
> Bera held Razès, between Carcassonne and Conflent, and he was described
> as a Goth ("Gothus") and as prince of the Goths ("Bero princeps ille
> Gothorum") by Ermold le Noir writing in 826.

There can be no doubt that he was a Visigoth, as Astronomer in his life
of Louis the Pious recounted that when Bera was denounced by Sunila in
January 820 they were required to fight a dual on horseback (armed with
javelin and sword) according to their own law, since they were both
Goths ("utpote quia uterque Gothus erat"). Bera was beaten and should
have been sentenced to death but was spared by Louis and exiled to
Rouen. This episode, at Aachen, is also narrated, with less detail, in
the royal annals.

Peter Stewart

[keri CA]

So none of these mention Bello. If the 779 for Lagrasse is original where
is it in the German edition MGH version of Charlemagnes charters? Did they
have a different date for it? I notice that CR says the dating clause is gone and
comes from an earlier work.

> There is no letter I can find from Charlemagne written in 778 or at any
> other time summoning contingents for an invasion of Spain. He wrote to
> the pope about it in advance of the 778 campaign, but his letter is lost
> and the reply does not substantiate the claim that counts may have been
> listed, with or without Bello among them. There is nothing at all in
> *Regesta imperii* to account for this idea.
>
> I found a peculiar reference in Jonathan Jarrett's 'Settling the kings'
> lands: aprisio in Catalonia in perspective', *Early Medieval Europe* 18
> (2010) p. 323 note 9: "Charlemagne apparently sent letters to
> Muslim-held cities of the March encouraging sedition prior to his 778
> campaign", citing 'Einharti Epistolae' in *Epistolae Karolini Aevi* III
> (1899; repr. 1995), no. 12, which is actually a letter from Louis I to
> the people of Mérida written 828/32, probably at the beginning of 830,
> see here:
>
> https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_epp_5/index.htm#page/114/mode/1up
>
> and for more recent citations here:
>
> https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_ldf_2/index.htm#page/1224/mode/1up.
>
> I can only guess that Jarrett had read something similar to whatever
> appears on the French webpage you found, but preferred not to cite it
> and imagined he had supplied its basis in a letter written by Einhard
> for Charlemagne's successor that he did cannot have studied with even
> minimal care.
>
> Peter Stewart

At least I'm not the only person so misled by the stuff on the net!
It looks as if someone misunderstood Cros-Meyreveille and ascribed
the evidence from 812 to Bello in 778. But this means that there is
no solid date for Bello, only before 812. Supposedly he is the ancestor
of at least 3 comital dynasties, but there doesnt seem any documented
link between him, Gisclafred and the Olibas.

Was it Abadal who first linked all these families into the Bellonids?
Is it based on what you said earlier that Miro son of
Sunifred said his grandfather was Bello? And as Oliba occurs in the
Barcelona comital dynasty therefore the Olibas of Carcassonne must
also be Bello's descendants?

kerica

[keri CA]

I read this on the net too but it sounded so hollywood I thought it might
not be authentic. What a marvelous story.

kerica

[Peter Stewart]

The MGH edition ascribed it to June 799, here (no. 189):

https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_karol_i/index.htm#page/252/mode/1up

There is a solid link between Bello and his son Gisclafred in the 838
charter of Pippin I of Aquitaine. Nothing is known of any offspring of
Gisclafred, and it is assumed that the next count of Carcassonne
recorded after him, Oliba I who occurs as count from 21 September 820,
was most probably his younger brother.

> Was it Abadal who first linked all these families into the Bellonids?
> Is it based on what you said earlier that Miro son of
> Sunifred said his grandfather was Bello? And as Oliba occurs in the
> Barcelona comital dynasty therefore the Olibas of Carcassonne must
> also be Bello's descendants?

That sums up the rationale - the debate is not over whether Bello of
Carcassonne was the grandfather in question, as there is no other
candidate on record, but only over whether he was the paternal or
maternal grandfather of Miro and consequently of the latter's brother
Wifred. Abadal was not the first to argue for an agnatic line stemming
from Bello to the counts of Barcelona, though I'm not sure when the term
Bellonids was first used (the slightly creepy and unduly simplistic use
of the -id suffix for lineages became common from the mid-19th century).

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

Hollywood discredits itself with unnecessary hyping of true stories as
well as by fabricating untrue ones. It's a wonder Charlton Heston didn't
play Bera and make him into the national hero of a nation he and his
chauvinistic audience would have looked down on in any non-celluloid
context.

There was a theory that Bera may have been a Frank, son of St William of
Gellone, but this has been debunked mainly because of the judicial dual
with his accuser Sanila that (for whatever reason it was enacted) would
never have been required of a Frank. Also because the name Bera occurs
among Visigoths in the life of Wamba written by Julian of Toledo in the
late-7th century.

The Bera who was exiled to Rouen in 820 had been a count (probably of
Razès and/or Conflent, both south of Carcassonne) before 801 when he was
appointed count of Barcelona. He was trusted enough to be a witness to
Charlemagne's testament in 811, but I doubt that this trust extended to
placing (or leaving) other Visigoths in authority around him in the
Spanish march, much less in command of the almost-impregnable fortress
of Carcassonne.

Peter Stewart

[keri CA]

Unfortunatley Aurell follows this Bera son of William line and says he was son of william
of Gellone by his 1st wife Kunegunde who was a visigoth [Noces p35]. I dont believe this as it comes
from the Alet charter which you said or I read was a later forgery plus contemporary
evidence seems against it.

Moreover he has Bello death anchored in 812 and this has spread all over the net, whereas
the only thing it seems we can say is that he was dead by then. A number of sites give
him the life span 778-812.

I think you mentioned that Borel of Ausona was also possibly the father of Count Sunifred.
Therefore Bello might have been the maternal grandfather of Miro I. Does the text allow
that interpretation? At least this is what Lewis suggests [Development of Southern French etc
chap6 n9];

"It seems probable that this Sunifred is the same Sunifred who in 829 is called a fidelis by Louis the
Pious and who was a son of Count Borell of Urgell-Cerdanya-Ausona (Catalunya Carolingia, II, 324).
According to a charter of 873 he was the father of Counts Guifred and Miró of Cerdanya (P. de Marca,
Marca hispanica sive limes hispanicus, I, appendix 27 [hereafter cited as Marca hispanica]). Abadal in
his "Un diplôme inconnu de Louis le Pieux," pp. 53-57, advances the connection between Counts
Guifred and Miró and the earlier Count Bellon of Carcassonne was through the distaff side, since
Count Sunifred married Ermissende, a daughter of Count Bellon. This would make Guifred and Miró
of Cerdanya and Oliba II and Acfred of Carcassonne first cousins. In later writings he has preferred to
regard Count Sunifred as descended only from Count Bellon, and do away with any identification of
him as that fidelis of Louis the Pious who is called the son of Count Borell (see Abadal "La Catalogne
sous l'empire de Louis le Pieux," pp. 83-91, and Els Primers Comtes Catalans, pp. 222-225). On the
whole Abadal's first solution of the problem seems the more reasonable one, and it is probably wiser to
accept his original identification of this Sunifred with Sunifred the fidelis of 829 and so make him
grandson of both Count Borell and Count Bellon."

If as you said earlier Ermesinda wife of Sunifred died 877/88 she would have outlived her husband
by at least 30 years, and as Wifred and Miro outlived by nearly 50, its likely they were children when
he died. If Ermesinda was a daughter of Bello she would have been very old when she died having
outlived him by maybe 60 years. I just wonder what term miro I uses to describe Bello, could it
be more general and just mean ancestor?

On the Gothic duel, I thought the merovingian franks also had trial by combat
at least I think it was in one of their law codes, maybe the Ripurians or Rhenish
merovings.

kerica

[Peter Stewart]

This rather absurd filiation was argued by Pierre Ponsich and
surprisingly taken up by several historians despite the explicit
statements by Ermold and Astronomer that Bera was a Visigoth. It also
falls to pieces because Dhuoda did not mention any such brother of her
husband when naming their son's relatives. The authenticity of
information in the Alet charter may be debatable but Dhuoda's memory and
family piety are not. The rationalisation that she did not choose to
mention someone convicted of treason 20+ years earlier is feeble - if
Louis I had thought Bera guilty he would surely not have spared his
life, and the family of St Guilhem is hardly likely to have renounced
one of its own if the emperor had unjustifiably humiliated a Frankish
aristocrat on the basis of a Visigoth's denunciation by making him fight
a dual according to the accuser's custom.

> Moreover he has Bello death anchored in 812 and this has spread all over the net, whereas
> the only thing it seems we can say is that he was dead by then. A number of sites give
> him the life span 778-812.
>
> I think you mentioned that Borel of Ausona was also possibly the father of Count Sunifred.
> Therefore Bello might have been the maternal grandfather of Miro I. Does the text allow
> that interpretation? At least this is what Lewis suggests [Development of Southern French etc
> chap6 n9];

Yes, this is the point that has caused so much dispute over a long
period - Bello was called Miro's grandfather and some historians
maintain that this indicates an agnatic connection whereas others
consider it could be through Miro's mother.

> "It seems probable that this Sunifred is the same Sunifred who in 829 is called a fidelis by Louis the
> Pious and who was a son of Count Borell of Urgell-Cerdanya-Ausona (Catalunya Carolingia, II, 324).
> According to a charter of 873 he was the father of Counts Guifred and Miró of Cerdanya (P. de Marca,
> Marca hispanica sive limes hispanicus, I, appendix 27 [hereafter cited as Marca hispanica]). Abadal in
> his "Un diplôme inconnu de Louis le Pieux," pp. 53-57, advances the connection between Counts
> Guifred and Miró and the earlier Count Bellon of Carcassonne was through the distaff side, since
> Count Sunifred married Ermissende, a daughter of Count Bellon. This would make Guifred and Miró
> of Cerdanya and Oliba II and Acfred of Carcassonne first cousins. In later writings he has preferred to
> regard Count Sunifred as descended only from Count Bellon, and do away with any identification of
> him as that fidelis of Louis the Pious who is called the son of Count Borell (see Abadal "La Catalogne
> sous l'empire de Louis le Pieux," pp. 83-91, and Els Primers Comtes Catalans, pp. 222-225). On the
> whole Abadal's first solution of the problem seems the more reasonable one, and it is probably wiser to
> accept his original identification of this Sunifred with Sunifred the fidelis of 829 and so make him
> grandson of both Count Borell and Count Bellon."
>
> If as you said earlier Ermesinda wife of Sunifred died 877/88 she would have outlived her husband
> by at least 30 years, and as Wifred and Miro outlived by nearly 50, its likely they were children when
> he died. If Ermesinda was a daughter of Bello she would have been very old when she died having
> outlived him by maybe 60 years. I just wonder what term miro I uses to describe Bello, could it
> be more general and just mean ancestor?

The term used is 'avus', in the idiosyncratic form 'abius' ("hereditas
esse debet per successionem abii sui Bellone").

> On the Gothic duel, I thought the merovingian franks also had trial by combat
> at least I think it was in one of their law codes, maybe the Ripurians or Rhenish
> merovings.

Trial by combat on horseback, with javelin and sword, was supposed to be
the Visigothic practice. It was remarkable enough to Franks for Ermold
and Astronomer to specify the reason, that both parties were Visigoths.

By the way, Philippe Depreux in *Prosopographie de l'entourage de Louis
le Pieux* (1997) questioned whether Bello was count of Carcassonne,
stating that nothing in the text of Pippin I's 838 charter makes this
definite ("Rien dans le texte ne permet cependant d'affirmer avec
certitude que Bellon fut comte de Carcassonne"). This is strange, since
the text states that count Bello and his son Gisclafred had determined
boundaries for cells of La Grasse abbey at Binozouls and Saint-Couat at
Flexus on the Aude, approximately 25 kms south-east and 30 kms east of
Carcassonne respectively. It's mysterious to me why a count and his son
from elsewhere would have done so. Cawley in Medieval Lands predictably
gets this wrong, claiming that Bello (in his invented scheme misnamed
Dela) and his son had "finished" (presumably the construction of) La
Grasse abbey itself.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 25-May-21 10:34 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:

> This rather absurd filiation was argued by Pierre Ponsich and
> surprisingly taken up by several historians despite the explicit
> statements by Ermold and Astronomer that Bera was a Visigoth. It also
> falls to pieces because Dhuoda did not mention any such brother of her
> husband when naming their son's relatives. The authenticity of
> information in the Alet charter may be debatable but Dhuoda's memory and
> family piety are not. The rationalisation that she did not choose to
> mention someone convicted of treason 20+ years earlier is feeble - if
> Louis I had thought Bera guilty he would surely not have spared his
> life, and the family of St Guilhem is hardly likely to have renounced
> one of its own if the emperor had unjustifiably humiliated a Frankish
> aristocrat on the basis of a Visigoth's denunciation by making him fight
> a dual according to the accuser's custom.

Finally I've twigged that I was misspelling duel as "dual" - although
there were of course two parties in the combat, there is no excuse for
such substandard spelling.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

The identification of Bera as a son of William of Gellone was first put
forward by Devic and Vaissette in vol. I of the original edition of
*Histoire générale de Languedoc* (1740), and agreed by Emile Mabille in
a work published in 1870 that was reprinted in vol II of the revised HGL
edition (1875). Joseph Calmette rejected this in 1906, considering that
Bera's supposed father must have been a namesake of William of Gellone
as otherwise Bera would not have been omitted from the family by Dhuoda.

The Alet charter (but not the connection to William of Gellone) was
still considered genuine in 1933 by Elie Griffe in *Histoire religieuse
des anciens pays de l'Aude*, but it was knocked out of consensus opinion
by Elisabeth Magnou-Nortier in 1974. Apart from the plainly-attested
fact that Bera was a Visigoth she gave four reasons discrediting the
charter's authenticity: 1. that a count would not have used the formula
"gratia Dei comes" ca 813, 2. that submitting Alet (in Razès) inherited
from his father along with Bera's foundation there of Notre-Dame abbey
to the direct authority of Rome contradicts all that is known of
imperial politics at the time, 3. that it would be very odd for the
papal 'Liber censuum' to ignore receipt of a pound of silver triannually
as stated in the charter, and 4. that the vocabulary indicated it was
written in the 11th century rather than the 9th.

According to Amy Remensnyder in *Remembering Kings Past: Monastic
Foundation Legends in Medieval Southern France* (1995) Magnou-Nortier
had "recently adduced further such irregularities and now believes the
document is entirely forged, as she was kind enough to inform me" - I
don't know if these extra reasons have been detailed in print. In 2007
Hélène Débax questioned whether there was even a count Bera in Razès at
the beginning of the 9th century, or that he was the same man as the
Visigoth appointed count of Barcelona in 801 and disgraced in 820.

It seems likely to me that the charter is a forgery from the 11th
century, but this does not mean that every detail in it was necessarily
fabricated at the time of writing. We know that Bera was already a count
somewhere before 801 when he was rewarded with Barcelona, and there is
no specific evidence to reject that he was count in Razès, founder of
Notre-Dame d'Alet and married to a lady named Romilla. An authentic
foundation document may have been falsified by a forger with a different
agenda two centuries or so after his lifetime. Bera of Barcelona had a
son named Willemund, and his father may have had the same name mistaken
for William (Guillelmus).

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 26-May-21 6:01 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

<snip>

> The Alet charter (but not the connection to William of Gellone) was
> still considered genuine in 1933 by Elie Griffe in *Histoire religieuse
> des anciens pays de l'Aude*, but it was knocked out of consensus opinion
> by Elisabeth Magnou-Nortier in 1974.

This is not right - Magnou-Nortier's work (her doctoral thesis)
apparently has been more influential in France than in Catalonia. As
mentioned upthread, Ponsich in 1980 argued for William of Gellone as
father of Bera and this was deferentially followed (though without
absolute certainty) by Josep Salrach in *Els comtes sobirans de la casa
de Barcelona*, edited by Josep Sans (2002).

Salrach suggested that William's first wife Cunegonde was perhaps a
Visigothic noblewoman, explaining the description of Bera as a Visigoth
by Ermold le Noir, assumed that William had associated him as count in
Razès and Conflent under his paternal authority before he became count
of Barcelona in 801, and stated that Bera must have been his firstborn
son whose younger half-brothers became his political rivals (however,
Bernard and Gaucelm are usually thought to have been half-brothers to
each other).

Peter Stewart

[keri CA]

So it seems that Carcassonne [Bello] and Barcelona [Wifred] families are
definitely connected. There is an assumption that the Olibas and Acfreds are
also descendants of Bello but if they wernt ,perhaps the name Oliba
which appears among the grandchildren of Wifred arrived via another
marriage. Is Oliba a version of the name Oliver as in the Song of Roland?

Wifred the Hairy of Barcelona had a wife called Winidilda which has been rendered as
Guinedilde [I] by French historians. I dont know if this is the first appearance of this name
but Aurell in the article you cited [Du Nouveau sur les comtesses catalanes p359-60]
suggests that she was the ancestor of 2 more.

In 926 Countess Widinilda signs a charter with viscountess Richilde for the cathedral of
Narbonne. Stasser Autour de Roger le Vieux p173, says this Guinedilda [II] was widow of
Raymond II of Toulouse dc924, as does Aurell p359, and agrees with Settipani that she
was the older sister of Richilde viscountess of Narbonne, daughter of Wifred II Borrel,
grandaughter of Wifred I and Guinedilde [I], Vajay said she was daughter of Wifred I.

In her will Garsende 972 gave 2 places cotnag and valedias to her nepos Raymond son of
Gundidilde [III] identified by Aurell as a different Raymond of Toulouse and therefore nepos
would mean her own grandson. This Guinidilde [III] would be therefore the wife of her own son.
He suggests that she was a daughter of Miro II [d927] of Cerdanya, Wifreds son although a
daughter of this name isnt listed in his will. If Aurells identifications are correct that would mean
Garsende married the son of Guinedilde [II], that is Raymond Pons , and their son married
Guinedilde [III]. If correct this suggests a dangerous level of consanguinity and inbreeding.

The official history of the counts of barcelona claim Wifreds wife Gunhild was a daughter of
Baldwin of Flanders given to him by Charles the bald but this seems unlikely to historians.
Guinedilde [I] names her own father as Seniofred in her own charters, which is the same as
her husbands Wifred. Does the name Guinedilde/Widonilda appear again?

kerica

[keri CA]

the name is also written Widonilda sometimes in documents.

kerica

[Peter Stewart]

On 01-Jun-21 8:52 AM, keri CA wrote:

> So it seems that Carcassonne [Bello] and Barcelona [Wifred] families are
> definitely connected. There is an assumption that the Olibas and Acfreds are
> also descendants of Bello but if they wernt ,perhaps the name Oliba
> which appears among the grandchildren of Wifred arrived via another
> marriage. Is Oliba a version of the name Oliver as in the Song of Roland?

Other way round, probably - the name Oliver is thought to derive from
the Chanson de Roland whereas Oliba/Oliva can be found in Septimania
before this came into fashion.

> Wifred the Hairy of Barcelona had a wife called Winidilda which has been rendered as
> Guinedilde [I] by French historians. I dont know if this is the first appearance of this name
> but Aurell in the article you cited [Du Nouveau sur les comtesses catalanes p359-60]
> suggests that she was the ancestor of 2 more.

The name of Wifred's occurs in forms such as Winidildes (including in
charters of her husband and herself), Winidilde, Winidillis, Guinedilda.
The element Winid- is thought to derive from the same source as the name
of the Wends, a Germanic tribe living on the Baltic. The combination
Wind+hild is not unique to Septimania. Winidrude is also found in the
same timeframe. "Widinild" is not a variant I can recall seeing for the
countess of Barcelona.

> In 926 Countess Widinilda signs a charter with viscountess Richilde for the cathedral of
> Narbonne. Stasser Autour de Roger le Vieux p173, says this Guinedilda [II] was widow of
> Raymond II of Toulouse dc924, as does Aurell p359, and agrees with Settipani that she
> was the older sister of Richilde viscountess of Narbonne, daughter of Wifred II Borrel,
> grandaughter of Wifred I and Guinedilde [I], Vajay said she was daughter of Wifred I.
>
> In her will Garsende 972 gave 2 places cotnag and valedias to her nepos Raymond son of
> Gundidilde [III] identified by Aurell as a different Raymond of Toulouse and therefore nepos
> would mean her own grandson. This Guinidilde [III] would be therefore the wife of her own son.
> He suggests that she was a daughter of Miro II [d927] of Cerdanya, Wifreds son although a
> daughter of this name isnt listed in his will. If Aurells identifications are correct that would mean
> Garsende married the son of Guinedilde [II], that is Raymond Pons , and their son married
> Guinedilde [III]. If correct this suggests a dangerous level of consanguinity and inbreeding.

And if proven correct I will eat Aurell's hat for him. Opinions are
ten-a-penny when specific evidence is lacking. The paternal grandmother
of Raimond IV of Toulouse (Adelais of Anjou's father-in-law) was named
Guinedilda and she was possibly a niece of Miró II. It appears more
plausible to me that his daughter Guilindo who occurs in his testament
(assuming she was named after his mother Guinedilda) may have been the
mother of the Raimond occurring in Garsende's testament of ca 972 by a
different husband, who was either a brother of Garsende or otherwise
closely related to her. But this is just another opinion.

> The official history of the counts of barcelona claim Wifreds wife Gunhild was a daughter of
> Baldwin of Flanders given to him by Charles the bald but this seems unlikely to historians.
> Guinedilde [I] names her own father as Seniofred in her own charters, which is the same as
> her husbands Wifred. Does the name Guinedilde/Widonilda appear again?

The "official" history you mention was set down in the second half of
the 12th century, by when the counts of Flanders must have seemed a
desirable connection to invent. Wifred is supposed to have come home
from the north grown so hairy that his mother was astonished. Monks
could fantasise ad lib, just like pulp fiction writers today.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 01-Jun-21 9:03 AM, keri CA wrote:

>> Wifred the Hairy of Barcelona had a wife called Winidilda which has been rendered as
>> Guinedilde [I] by French historians. I dont know if this is the first appearance of this name
>> but Aurell in the article you cited [Du Nouveau sur les comtesses catalanes p359-60]
>> suggests that she was the ancestor of 2 more.
>
> the name is also written Widonilda sometimes in documents.

Can you provide citations for these documents?

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

The only place I can find "Widinilda" for her is a misprint in the index
to vol. IV of HGL, revised edition (1872) - but on the page indicated,
906, her name is spelled "Winidilda".

Needless to say "Widinilda" does occur on the internet, though even
there a Google search doesn't turn up any instance of "Widonilda".

Peter Stewart

[keri CA]

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 2:03:25 AM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> On 01-Jun-21 8:52 AM, keri CA wrote:
>
> > So it seems that Carcassonne [Bello] and Barcelona [Wifred] families are
> > definitely connected. There is an assumption that the Olibas and Acfreds are
> > also descendants of Bello but if they wernt ,perhaps the name Oliba
> > which appears among the grandchildren of Wifred arrived via another
> > marriage. Is Oliba a version of the name Oliver as in the Song of Roland?
> Other way round, probably - the name Oliver is thought to derive from
> the Chanson de Roland whereas Oliba/Oliva can be found in Septimania
> before this came into fashion.

Is Oliver derived from Oliba is what i should have asked.

> > Wifred the Hairy of Barcelona had a wife called Winidilda which has been rendered as
> > Guinedilde [I] by French historians. I dont know if this is the first appearance of this name
> > but Aurell in the article you cited [Du Nouveau sur les comtesses catalanes p359-60]
> > suggests that she was the ancestor of 2 more.
> The name of Wifred's occurs in forms such as Winidildes (including in
> charters of her husband and herself), Winidilde, Winidillis, Guinedilda.
> The element Winid- is thought to derive from the same source as the name
> of the Wends, a Germanic tribe living on the Baltic. The combination
> Wind+hild is not unique to Septimania. Winidrude is also found in the
> same timeframe. "Widinild" is not a variant I can recall seeing for the
> countess of Barcelona.

I miswrote Widonilda for Widinilda. I read that a charter for Ripoll st.Pere in the collection
marca hispanica, Wifreds wife appears as Widinilda. Guinedilda [II] or Countess Widinilda
signs the charter for Narbonne in 926. Are the spellings of Widinilda all misprints or
misreadings by editors? But whatever the spelling I dont recall seeing this name before or
after in the Midi.

> > In 926 Countess Widinilda signs a charter with viscountess Richilde for the cathedral of
> > Narbonne. Stasser Autour de Roger le Vieux p173, says this Guinedilda [II] was widow of
> > Raymond II of Toulouse dc924, as does Aurell p359, and agrees with Settipani that she
> > was the older sister of Richilde viscountess of Narbonne, daughter of Wifred II Borrel,
> > grandaughter of Wifred I and Guinedilde [I], Vajay said she was daughter of Wifred I.
> >
> > In her will Garsende 972 gave 2 places cotnag and valedias to her nepos Raymond son of
> > Gundidilde [III] identified by Aurell as a different Raymond of Toulouse and therefore nepos
> > would mean her own grandson. This Guinidilde [III] would be therefore the wife of her own son.
> > He suggests that she was a daughter of Miro II [d927] of Cerdanya, Wifreds son although a
> > daughter of this name isnt listed in his will. If Aurells identifications are correct that would mean
> > Garsende married the son of Guinedilde [II], that is Raymond Pons , and their son married
> > Guinedilde [III]. If correct this suggests a dangerous level of consanguinity and inbreeding.
> And if proven correct I will eat Aurell's hat for him. Opinions are
> ten-a-penny when specific evidence is lacking. The paternal grandmother
> of Raimond IV of Toulouse (Adelais of Anjou's father-in-law) was named
> Guinedilda and she was possibly a niece of Miró II. It appears more
> plausible to me that his daughter Guilindo who occurs in his testament
> (assuming she was named after his mother Guinedilda) may have been the
> mother of the Raimond occurring in Garsende's testament of ca 972 by a
> different husband, who was either a brother of Garsende or otherwise
> closely related to her. But this is just another opinion.

I think this is the tree that Aurells version would produce. Maybe I totally misread him, but it
seems he is suggesting that Raymond IV married the cousin of his grandmother. In his will
Miro II [d927] the brother of Wifred II [d911], he seems to suggest that Guilinda was illegitimate.
But I havnt checked which version of the line of count Raymonds Aurell follows. But whether
the later Guinedildas stem from Wifred II or Miro II doesnt make much difference in consanguinity.
And the same could be said if they are attached to the Viscounts of Narbonne. Clearly this
wasnt an issue in the 10th century although nobles could always apply for dispensation.

Wifred m Guinedilda [I]
|
Wifred II m Garsende
|
Guinedilda [II] m Raymond II of Toulouse
|
Raymond Pons m Garsende
|
Raymond IV of Toulouse m Guinedilda [III] [=?Guilinda?]
|
Raymond V of Toulouse m Adelaide-Blanche of Anjou

kerica

[Peter Stewart]

In Marca hispanica the charter in question, dated 25 June 890, is
summarised by the author. On p 372 he had given her names as "Widinilde
seu Guinilde" and on the following page in the summary referred to he
gave "Widinildes". In the text of this charter in the appendix, p. 922.
her name appears as "Vvidinildis" and "Vvidinildes". I assume this is
from a scribal error with an unfamiliar name.

In charters printed by Frederic Udina in 1951 from the comital archive
of Barcelona she occurs as "Winidildes" (27 June 885), "Winidede" (24
April 889), "Winidilde" (19 February 904) and "Winidillis" (1 Decmeber
987), i.e. always with the first syllable as "Win-" not "Wid-". I
wouldn't trouble further over this peculiarity, it is just the internet
perpetuating an odd and uninformative variant.

> Guinedilda [II] or Countess Widinilda
> signs the charter for Narbonne in 926. Are the spellings of Widinilda all misprints or
> misreadings by editors? But whatever the spelling I dont recall seeing this name before or
> after in the Midi.

Evidently some scribes hadn't seen it written before either, and made
various rough stabs at it. The elements of the name are give by Morlet
as "Winid-, Wind-" and "-hild", both probably more common in the north
than in Septimania.

>>> In 926 Countess Widinilda signs a charter with viscountess Richilde for the cathedral of
>>> Narbonne.

The name occurs there as "Widinildis", again evidently a scribal
aberration for Winidildis.

Aurell made this connection from Wifred II to Guinedilda [II] with a
broken line, indicating uncertainty.

> |
> Raymond Pons m Garsende
> |
> Raymond IV of Toulouse m Guinedilda [III] [=?Guilinda?]
> |
> Raymond V of Toulouse m Adelaide-Blanche of Anjou

I can't recall, and don't have the energy or will to check, exactly what
Aurell said about the mother-in-law of Adelais of Anjou, but if he
called her Guinedilda he was guessing since the lady's name is unknown.

Peter Stewart

[taf]

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 4:16:19 AM UTC-7, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

> > Guinedilda [II] m Raymond II of Toulouse
> Aurell made this connection from Wifred II to Guinedilda [II] with a
> broken line, indicating uncertainty.
> > |
> > Raymond Pons m Garsende
> > |
> > Raymond IV of Toulouse m Guinedilda [III] [=?Guilinda?]
> > |
> > Raymond V of Toulouse m Adelaide-Blanche of Anjou
> I can't recall, and don't have the energy or will to check, exactly what
> Aurell said about the mother-in-law of Adelais of Anjou, but if he
> called her Guinedilda he was guessing since the lady's name is unknown.

As you say, not worth digging out because it is all speculation anyhow, but I think Aurell was the one who, in one of his two reconstructions, suggested that Adelaise was second wife of Raymond (IV), that William III was half-brother of the Raymond and Bishop Hugh of the Roda genealogy (the other reconstruction making the line end and Toulouse go to the Rouergue branch). I am getting a bit muddled in my head between Aurell, Stasser and Settipani reconstructions, but I recall that naming the wife of Raymond (IV) as Guidinilda comes from interpreting the legacy in Garsende's testament to her nepotes Hugh and Raymond, children of Guidinilda, as referring to the same two as end the Roda pedigree, hence making their mother the (first) wife of Raymond (IV). As to who she was, that is just lame onomastic 'pin-the-tail-in-the-donkey' guesswork when all we have is a name.

taf

[Peter Stewart]

Yes, that rings some memory bells. The approach of revising genealogies
by serial conjecture is a compulsion to some, but even if the result
convinces others it will eventually run into a contradictory revision
when another OCD researcher becomes entranced with different permutations.

Aurell allowed closely consanguineous marriages in his Catalonian
schemes partly because he had followed a rudimentary error of Bofarull
in making Sunifred II's wife Adelaida into the same woman as his niece
of that name who identified herself as daughter of Sunyer and Richilde
in a charter. However, it is patently unsafe to presume that because
Bofarull knew of only one countess named Adelaida around the mid-930s
there must have been only one, as that there must have been only one
Adelaida with the common byname Bonafilia. Apart from these problems,
Bofarull's discussion of the point is largely a refutation of the claim
in the late-13th century chronicle of Sant Pere de les Puelles that the
house was founded by Louis I - Bofarull established that the foundation
was made by Sunyer and his wife Richilde, but he then conflated Adelaida
the abbess of Sant Joan de les Abasesses from 950 with the Adelaida who
was abbess of Sant Pere in the late 980s/early 990s: clearly this is
inadmissible, since it would involve her ceding office at Sant Joan by
November 955 (when Ranló was abbess) and then disappearing for more than
30 years until she was appointed abbess of Sant Pere after its
destruction by al-Mansur in 985. There were plainly several different
women of the same name belonging to separate generations, as Sunifred
was already married to Adelaida in November 907, whereas Richilde does
not occur as Sunyer's wife until ca 920/25 and their son Borrell II was
married for the first time apparently in 967 - even supposing his elder
full-sister had been a bride as a girl of 12 in 907 and he was 25 years
her junior, this would place his birth at the latest in 920 rendering it
highly unlikey that he waited until ca 47 years of age before marrying
(and that he subsequently married for a second time in his late 60s, to
Aimeruda by whom he had at least two daughters). Sunyer's elder brother
Guifred II Borrell was married by November 898, so it is quite plausible
that Sunyer was married by November 907 and highly unlikely that this
did not happen until the mid 930s as proposed by Aurell on the ground
that there is no other occurrence of Adelaida with Sunifred until 21
July 935, suggesting that the 13th-century copyist had misdated the
document and that the purported marriage of Adelaida to her uncle
actually took place around the latter date. This is pinning a donkey's
tail on himself.

Regarding Guinidilda the wife of Wifred, he suggested that her father
Sunifred may have been either the abbot of La Grasse between 870 and 890
or another namesake who was abbot of Notre-Dame d'Arles in 881 - this is
almost literally pinning tails on donkeys. Guinidilda acquired property
in the county of Ampurias from her father Sunifred and inherited
property in Cerdagne. On this basis some have assumed that the latter
must also have come to her from Sunifred, as if she had no mother, and
therefore that he must have been count of Cerdagne. Vajay instead
proposed that when she called Sunifred her father ("patrem meum nomine
Suniofredo") she meant father-in-law, because he had a donkey's
posterior in view which he could not resist in the shape of Wifred's
father of the same name who had been count of Cerdagne. Needless to say,
Guinidilda did not refer to her father as either abbot or count.

Peter Stewart