Mary, wife of Ralph de Tony (d. 1295) revisited

[John P. Ravilious]

Thursday, 3 December, 2008

Hello All,

Recently I had raised the issue of the parentage of
Mary, wife of Ralph de Tony (d. 1295), and had suggested
that she was very possibly of the family of Ros of
Helmsley. One intriguing piece of evidence to the
contrary, on which the argument for a Brus parentage is
largely based, is the statement in the Complete Peerage
account that Mary's son Robert was born at ' Thornby [sic],
in Scotland ', presumed by many if not most to mean
Turnberry Castle, stronghold of the Bruce Earls of
Carrick [1].

I was fortunate in a recent fossick at the LOC to
gain access to the correct volume of Placita coram
Domino Rege which includes the 1297 testimony
concerning Robert de Tony's claim to be 'of age'. The
testimony of William de la Sale describes in detail
the fact that Robert de Tony was born on 4 April 1276,
"apud Thornby in Scocia" ['at Thornby in Scotland'],
and that his mother Mary brought Robert to Norfolk and
caused the priory of Westacre to record the facts of
Robert's birth in their records [2].

I discussed this with Andrew MacEwen, who stated
that this is good evidence, but that greater certainty
would be provided by seeing the original Latin
text. The text given in Placita coram Domino Rege
is extended, so that no abbreviations need be hurdled
by the present reader. Unfortunately, as Andrew
pointed out, a number of scribal marks (including
apostrophes) are sometimes overlooked by individuals in
the transcription process. It is possible that the
actual word in the text was "Thornb'y" or similar,
which would presumably have been an abbreviated form of
the 13th century version of 'Turnberry', but it is
also possible that the word in the original text was
simply 'Thornby' refering to a location other than
Turnberry in Ayrshire.

Short of being able to follow through and obtain
the actual document from 1297, I am inclined to agree
that Mary was probably a sister of Robert de Brus, Earl
of Carrick and of Richard de Brus (grantee of the lands
and marriage of Ralph de Tony, father of Robert). This
still leaves uncertain the reason for William de Ros
and his brother Robert apparently representing the
de Tony interest in the 1293 marriage contract. They
were 3rd cousins (via d'Aubigny of Belvoir) to Malise,
Earl of Strathearn, but I believe they were more
closely allied with de Tony. Finding the surname
and ancestry of Isabel, wife of William d'Aubigny of
Belvoir (d. 1242) and maternal grandmother of William
and Robert de Ros, will likely solve this riddle.

Cheers,

John

NOTES

[1] CP XII/I:773, sub _Tony_.

[2] Placita coram Domino Rege (1898), p. 242.

* John P. Ravilious

[Jwc...@aol.com]

Dear John Ravilious and others,
It does seem most strange that
Robert Brus the Competitor and Robert Brus of Carrick should absent
themselves from this meeting if they were in fact Mary`s family. Then again.. given the
extreme rancor between them and Strathearn`s representative (John Comyn, Earl
of Buchan) aside from which , at least Brus of Carrick was probably away on
campaign with King Edward I in Flanders as was the younger Red Comyn.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont, Maine
USA

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[Doug McDonald]

John P. Ravilious wrote:
> Thursday, 3 December, 2008
>

Really?

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear James,

The little love lost between the Bruces and Comyns may well
account for the absence of a Brus in London at the time. The elder
Bruce, Lord of Annandale (presumably grandfather of Robert de Tony)
was aged about 80 at the time (born say 1210-1215, depending on whom
you talk to), and his son the Earl of Carrick (resigned the Earldom at
Berwick, 6 Nov 1292) may possibly still have been in Norway, re: the
marriage of his daughter Isabel to Eric, King of Norway.

As I said, I believe that the de Ros brothers were closely
related to the Brus family; hopefully some proof pro or con will be
found.

Cheers,

John

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Doug,

One of those scribal errors.

Must be sure to hire a better scribe next time.......

Cheers,

John

[Jwc...@aol.com]

Dear John Ravilious, Douglas and others,
In MCA (sub
Aubeney) Douglas gives William de Roos who married 2nd Isabel a first wife Aubrey
Bisset. could she have been of the same family? She was born say before 1219
as her daughter Isabel Aubeney of Belvoir was born abt 1233 (see Richardson
MCA (sub Roos)
There were in fact a couple of connections between the Roos and Brus
families.
1 Robert fitz Roger, 2nd Baron of Warkworth married Margaret, daughter
of William fitz Walter de Chesney
2 John fitz Robert, 3rd Baron of Warkworth married Ada de Baliol
2 Alice fitz Robert married Peter fitz Herbert
3 (daughter of John) Cecily fitz John married Patrick Dunbar, Earl of
Dunbar (son of Euphemia (Brus) Dunbar, sister of Robert de Brus who married
Isabel of Huntingdon)
3 Lucy fitz Peter married William de Roos of Hemsley (parents of Robert
, husband of Isabel Aubeney)

note: through Roger fitz Richard`s 1 Baron of Warkworth`s wife Alice de
Vere there is a distant kinship to Robert de Brus the Competitor`s wife
Isabel de Clare as Alice`s mother was Alice de Clare, daughter of Gilbert fitz
Richard and Adeliza de Clermont
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA.

[texa...@gmail.com]

Hello all- Wonderful work done on this subject. Was wondering if anything more has come of it?

-Sean