Geoffrey de Chester, brother of Sir Roger de Lacy, Constable of Chester

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Below is a history of Geoffrey de Chester (died 1206), younger brother
of Sir Roger de Lacy (otherwise Roger de Chester), hereditary Constable
of Chester (died 1211). As we can see, Geoffrey, while married, left
no surviving issue. His wife, Isabel de Rye, was the younger sister of
Aline de Rye, wife of John Marshal, which couple are ancestral to the
Lords Morley.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

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I. GEOFFREY OF CHESTER, 4th son. Sometime prior to 1190, he witnessed
a charter of his father's to Lenton Priory, Nottinghamshire, and a
charter of his father's dated 1175-1190 to Watton Priory. He married
before Easter term 1201 ISABEL DE RYE, younger daughter and co-heiress
of Hubert de Rye, by Margaret, daughter of William Fitz Rocelin. They
had no issue. He witnessed a charter of his brother, Roger de Lacy,
dated 1200-1211. He also witnessed an agreement made in the court of
his brother, Roger, in 1201. In Easter term 1201 he and John Marshal
(husband of his wife's elder sister, Aline) entered into a judicial
agreement with the Tenplars whereby the latter acknowledged their
hereditary rght to Aslackby, Lincolnshire. GEOFFREY DE CHESTER died in
1206. His widow, Isabel, married (2nd) before Michaelmas 1207 Roger de
Cressy. They had two sons, Hugh and Stephen. She died without
surviving issue in 1263.

References:

W.A. Hulton ed., The Coucher Book or Chartulary of Whalley Abbey 1
(Chetham Soc. 10) (1847): 182-187; 2 (Chetham Soc. 11) (1847): 393; 3
(Chetham Soc. 16) (1848): 403, 801-802. William Farrer ed., Early
Yorkshire Charters 3 (1916): 199 (chart), 213-214. Complete Peerage 8
(1932): 527, footnote a (sub Marshal). A. Mary Kirkus ed., The Great
Roll of the Pipe for the Ninth Year of the Reign of King John,
Michaelmas 1207 (Pipe Roll Soc. n.s. 22) (1946): 178. Hatton, Book of
Seals (1950): 216-217, 358. Geoffrey Barraclough ed., Facsimiles of
Early Cheshire Charters (1957): 18-20.

[mj...@btinternet.com]

Douglas

Thanks for this posting. It is not clear to me, looking at it, that
"we can that Geoffrey left no surviving issue". I can see that is
asserted that Geoffrey's wife Isabel died without surviving issue,
although I cannot tell which is the reference for this.

The problem with a mass of references is that they tend to obscure
singular facts. The most useful secondary sources - such as CP or VCH
- attempt to back up each statement they make by reference to a source.
This saves anyone who wishes to follow up the reference from having to
wade through a myriad of sources - most of which will be irrelevant.
This is, of course, essential if one is to confirm the trustworthiness
of a secondary source.

In any case, while the above sources may purport to show that Isabel
died without surviving issue, do we know that Geoffrey did not?

Regards

Michael

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Michael ~

Isabel de Rye's heir at her death was her sister, Aline de Rye, wife of
John Marshal. See Complete Peerage, 8(1932): 527, footnote a (sub
Marshal).

If Isabel died without surviving issue, it means she had no living
issue by either of her marriages, including her first marriage to
Geoffrey de Chester.

I trust that answers your question.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

[mj...@btinternet.com]

Douglas

Thanks for that; it part answers my point, by providing the specific
reference for Isabel's having died without surviving issue.

It doesn't show that Geoffrey died without issue.

Cheers

Michael

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Michael ~

Geoffrey de Chester's only known wife was Isabel de Rye. Isabel is
known to have died without surviving issue. I believe that means
Geoffrey also had no surviving issue, at least lawful issue. Unless,
of course, you know of another marriage for Geoffrey de Chester. Do
you? If so, please post your evidence for this marriage.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

[mj...@btinternet.com]

Thanks for the response, Douglas, No, I know of no other wife than
Isabel. But we can't conclude from a lack of knowledge to the contrary
that there wasn't one, nor can we state that because his one known wife
died without issue, that Geoffrey likewise died without lawful issue.

>From your notes above, it appears that Geoffrey and Isabel were married
by mid 1201, and that he died in 1206. However, he was witnessing
charters by 1190, so there may be plenty of scope for an earlier
marriage.

It seems to me that it would be better under the circumstances to state
that he "apparently died without issue". Stating likelihoods as facts
is a dangerous and slippery slope, and a trap that I am as likely to
fall into as anyone.

MAR