George Liddell of Virginia? Related to Sir Robert Peake d. 1667

[Matthew Langley]

Anyone have information on a George Liddell (Lyddall) of Virginia, who had a daughter Anne who married an Edmund Bacon.

Most tree seem to connect him to Sir Thomas Liddell who married Isabel Anderson, either as a son (some sources seem to mention he had a son George, or as a son of that George)... though having a hard time finding a concrete tree. If anyone has any information would greatly appreciate it.

One of the primary reasons to connect him seems to be the will of Sir Robert Peake whose will that was created 1666 mentions:

"To my cousin and sometime servant, George Lyddall, in Virginia, gentleman, three hundred pounds in three years"

https://books.google.com/books?id=CaNCAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA11&ots=y_1d26zGoz&dq=robert%20peake%20%22sometime%20servant%22&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q=robert%20peake%20%22sometime%20servant%22&f=false

I'm having a hard time confirming his relation. It seems Robert Peake might have been married to a Martha Woodward, who had a sister Bridget Woodward married to a Thomas Liddell son of the mentioned Sir Thomas Liddell m Isabel.

If the initial correlation is correct would he call him "cousin" if his wife had a sister who was married to a cousin of George?

It seems Robert Peaks father was William Peake married to an Ann Acton son of Robert Peake (a painter) m. Elizabeth Beckwith.

[Matthew Langley]

Just wanted to follow up on this, if anyone has any additional info

[JBrand]

The Robert who married Martha Woodward was Rev. Robert Peck of Hingham, Norfolk, and Hingham, Massachusetts, an ancestor of some of us by his first wife, Anne Lawrence.

The second wife Martha was, I believe, married previously to a Bacon, and has some Bacon descendants in Virginia. I'm unsure about any Liddell connection.

[Matthew Langley]

On Saturday, June 11, 2016 at 6:25:48 AM UTC-7, JBrand wrote:
> The Robert who married Martha Woodward was Rev. Robert Peck of Hingham, Norfolk, and Hingham, Massachusetts, an ancestor of some of us by his first wife, Anne Lawrence.
>
> The second wife Martha was, I believe, married previously to a Bacon, and has some Bacon descendants in Virginia. I'm unsure about any Liddell connection.

Thanks for the response. Is Rev Robert Peck the same as the one in the will I mentioned?

On this site, which I have no clue if it is right since they cite no sources:
http://yuugi004.tripod.com/genealogy/Bacons_in_america.htm

It places George Lyddall of Virginia as son of Thomas Lyddall m. Bridget Woodward... it outlines the following

George Lyddal probably was the brother of Sir Thomas Lyddal, who died in' 1627. His father survived him. Sir Thomas Lydall married Bridget, daughter of George Woodward and Elizabeth Honiwood. Her sister Martha's first husband was Rev. James Bacon, father of Col. Nathaniel Bacon Sr., president of the Virginia Counsel, acting governor and member of the House of Burgesses. Her second husband was Sir Robert Peake, rector of Hingham in Norfolk County, England.

I'm unsure on the accuracy of this info. Assuming it was correct it could make George Lyddal a cousin of Robert Peake's wife? Would that be cause to call him "cousin" in his will.

It seems that site copied info from:
https://books.google.com/books?id=sCUjAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA268&lpg=PA268&dq=Sir+Robert+Peake+martha+woodward&source=bl&ots=q7Rv3wGlza&sig=HKngCalkNB3FvfDwfN80th5I0z8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwichb2pg6HNAhVU0WMKHYHWCR0Q6AEILTAD#v=onepage&q=Sir%20Robert%20Peake%20martha%20woodward&f=false

[Matthew Langley]

On Sunday, June 12, 2016 at 6:43:29 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Thanks for the response. Is Rev Robert Peck the same as the one in the will I mentioned?
>

> No, your person is a "Sir" Robert Peake, this was a Rev. Robert Peck. Robert Peck died in the mid-1650s, I believe.

Absolutely correct, had a brain fart.

I'm guessing those articles reference that correlation wondering if Sir Robert Peake is somehow related to that Robert Peck.

Here's a visitation record that some people assign to Sir Robert Peake:

https://books.google.com/books?id=bPBMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=robert+peake+elizabeth+beckwith&source=bl&ots=cR_OaN1mru&sig=bIpMpcwQ0F2EW_YAj1r0LBaTyHY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNqc7X2aXNAhUXQVIKHfMUARAQ6AEIXjAR#v=onepage&q=robert%20peake%20elizabeth%20beckwith&f=false

Does anyone know of any genealogies covering these Peake's our their spouses?

[Matthew Langley]

Here's an article about Robert Peake grandfather of Sir Robert Peake, it seems to assign Elizabeth Beckwith as his wife coinciding with that Harleian Society genealogy.

http://philipmould.com/browse-artists/robert-peake

[Matthew Langley]

So I see here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=p_k-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA399&dq=Thomas+Lyddall+OR+LIddell+Isabel+Anderson+george&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif-KjCh6LOAhUL6GMKHQGrB_wQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=Thomas%20Lyddall%20OR%20LIddell%20Isabel%20Anderson%20george&f=false

Thomas Liddell m. Isabel Anderson did have a son name George, though according to this he died unmarried.

[WJH]

Above it is suggested that Sir Robert Peake and the Rev'd Robert Peck can't be the same person. However there is nothing to stop an Anglican priest from being knighted or a baronet from becoming an Anglican priest in which cases they would be the Rev'd Sir xxxxxx xxxxxx. Since Sir Robert is described as rector i.e. parish priest, I'd suggest that a bit more investigation is needed...

James

[Matthew Langley]

On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 4:32:16 AM UTC-7, WJH wrote:
> Above it is suggested that Sir Robert Peake and the Rev'd Robert Peck can't be the same person. However there is nothing to stop an Anglican priest from being knighted or a baronet from becoming an Anglican priest in which cases they would be the Rev'd Sir xxxxxx xxxxxx. Since Sir Robert is described as rector i.e. parish priest, I'd suggest that a bit more investigation is needed...
>
> James

Very true, thanks.

So I found the most comprehensive document linking this Liddell family of England to the one of Virginia

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/42123275.pdf

It's quite long and an in-depth look at the connected families (Bacon, Liddell, etc) in England and in Virginia... an excerpt

"
While not directly associated with the Palatine model as employed in Maryland, it is important to address similar parallel systems in Virginia especially those in place during the period immediately preceding and following Bacon’s Rebellion (c.1676). This is also a crucial point for comparison between the Chesapeake and County Durham as a member of the Liddell family, being one George Liddell (baptised 30 September 1634 in Lamesley, the grandson of Sir Thomas Liddell 1st Bt Ravensworth; see Issue of Liddell Family at the beginning of this thesis), was directly involved with the incident as a recent immigrant to the Virginia Colony. This George Liddell (spelled as “Lyddall” or “Lydal” as it is recorded on a stone in the churchyard of Saint Peters Episcopal Church, Putneys Mill, New Kent County, VA; Blake 2010) emigrated to Virginia in approximately 1654 alongside members of the Woodward, Bacon, Honniwood, and Hammond families and settled in New Kent County (will proved there 28 January 1705) where he obtained seven hundred acres of land (marriage agreement in Clopton Papers, Duke University Archives; cited in Harris 1979:173). George’s older brother Sir Thomas Liddell, baptised 1603, had married the daughter of George Woodward and Elizabeth Honniwood (Harris 1979:172).

Along with members of the Bacon family with whom he had become close allies (Liddell’s daughter Ann married Edmund Bacon), Liddell established a plantation and became active in regional politics, serving as a captain in the local militia and commanding the fort at Mattaponi during the Rebellion.
"

It seems they are putting forward that George Liddell was born in 1634. I'm a bit confused since the first chart seems to suggest the George Liddell of Virginia was born 1615 son of Thomas Liddell 1st Baronet, though in the above excerpt it suggests he is probably the son of that George born 1634 and grandson of Thomas Liddell... Maybe I'm missing something though.

It's quite a length document and analysis still trying to dig through it, would love to have some other opinions.

[Matthew Langley]

I find a post here with some very specific dates though no sources cited

http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.northam.usa.states.virginia.counties.newkent/893.2.1.1/mb.ashx

The date of birth for George Lydall, father of Anne:
Lt. Col. George Lyddall(Liddell) of New Kent Co., VA
Born at: bapt. Lamesley, Durham on: Baptized 30 September 1634
Died at: New Kent Co., VA on: 19 January 1705, bur. St. Peter's, New Kent Co., VA
He was the son of:
George Lyddall/Liddell of Lamesley, Durham
Born at: Bapt.St. Nicholas, Newcastle, Durham on: Baptized 26 September 1615
Married on: _____ to: Suzanna
George b. 1634 was first married to Sarah. Second to Jane.

[Matthew Langley]

Ok finding a bit more

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/antiquities-durham/vol2/pp207-218#h3-0007

Specifically these two images

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/sites/default/files/publications/pubid-455/images/fig70.gif
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/sites/default/files/publications/pubid-455/images/fig71.gif

This shows the same dates


George Liddell (son of Thomas Liddell and Isabel Anderson) baptized 26 Sep 1615 m. Susanna. bur. Mar 1664

Shows a son (second image top right)

George Liddell bapt 30 Sep 1634. living 1666


Doesn't mention anything about him being Virginia however.

[Matthew Langley]

Found another interesting site that makes a lot of connections without proof

https://harrisandrelatedfamiliesofvirginia.wordpress.com/2014/04/26/10/

They list George Liddell of Virginia as a son of Thomas Liddell m. Isabel Anderson (which seems popular, though according to the previous genealogy he might fit better as the son of that George)

They then say this about him

"
Their son, George Lyddall, b. September 26, 1615 in Lamsley, Durham; d. January 10, 1704 in New Kent County, m. Jane Stangways; dau. of Sir John Strangeways of Melbury Sampford; her sister, Grace, m. Edward Chamberlayne, sheriff of Glouc. These Strangeways were desc. of a dau. of William Mordaunt and Margaret Peake. A possible sister of Isabel Anderson was Anne Anderson, who may have been the wife of Samuel Waters; their dau., Elizabeth Waters, m. William Overton; their dau., Temperance Overton, m William Harris.
"

Suggesting George was married to a Jane Strangways. I cannot find evidence of that though curious as to why they specifically tied to that.


They seem to speculate the connection between George Liddell and Robert Peak eas well

"
Henry’s cousin** and namesake, son of Bertram Anderson and Alice Carr, dau. of Ralph Carr, merchant of Newcastle, m. Isabel Morland, and had issue: (1) Isabel Anderson, who married Thomas Lyddall,*** whose sister was the probable grandmother of Robert Peake. (2) Anne Anderson, m. Samuel Waters. *Their son was Henry Garraway, father of John Garraway, father of his namesake who accompanied George Lyddall to Virginia).
"

That last * referring to

"Issue of Katherine Hopton and Thomas Anderson: (1) Sir Henry Anderson, Alderman of London. 1.1. Elizabeth Anderson, m. William Garraway,*"

Another connection to the Anderson family


Descendants of both the Strangways identified first and the Waters identified second seemingly came to Virginia so their may be something too it, though I haven't found evidence yet.

Robert Peake does list some Waters as his cousins as well in his will.

"To my cousin James Waters, the son of Joseph Waters, fifty pounds. To my cousin - Waters, relict of Samuel Waters, skinner, deceased, twenty pounds"

If the Strangways do descend from a Margaret Peck/Peak maybe that's the "cousin" connection as well? If George was married to a cousin of Robert Peake would he refer to George as a cousin in his will? The pedigree previously shared shows the theoretically potential George Liddell father of George Liddel of Virginia born 1615 and married to a Susanna, if she was a Strangways (or an earlier wife) then George of Virginia could theoretically be a cousin as well. All speculation of course in an attempt to try and find anything that would disprove this.

Looking up the Peake/Peck ancestries online leads to a lot of speculation it seems. I do indeed see some trees that show Margaret Peake wife of William Mordaunt as a daughter of a John Peake and Agnes Winter. Other speculative trees show Sir Robert Peake d. 1667 (cousin of George Liddell) also descended from them... Said line being:

John Peake m. Agnes Winter
William Peake m. Dorothy Jenkins
Robert Peake m. Elizabeth Beckwith
William Peake m. Anne Acton
Sir Robert Peake d. 1667

Again unverified... I see some records that suggest the last three generations and at least the father of Robert Peake being a William

https://books.google.com/books?id=bPBMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA147&dq=william+peake+elizabeth+beckwith+OR+beckwithe&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii_dCW29vQAhVY-mMKHaMVDeIQ6AEIITAB#v=onepage&q=william%20peake%20elizabeth%20beckwith%20OR%20beckwithe&f=false

[Matthew Langley]

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 6:34:48 PM UTC-7, Matthew Langley wrote:

This Visitation

https://books.google.com/books?id=BvFMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA301&lpg=PA301&dq=Sir+Giles+Strangways+OR+Strangeways+jane+mordaunt&source=bl&ots=YDee8xoZm8&sig=uWLCeLUIIwOulyJDF6T5kmDvQa0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM2bj34NvQAhVX3WMKHZTNBKU4ChDoAQgmMAM#v=onepage&q=Sir%20Giles%20Strangways%20OR%20Strangeways%20jane%20mordaunt&f=false

Shows Giles Strangways m. Jane Mordaunt as the ancestor of the line of John Strangways m. Dorothy Tyhnne.

Still have nothing to connect a George Liddell marrying a "Jane" Strangways but it seems that John Strangways *might* descend from Peakes that could *possibly* be the Peakes that Sir Robert Peak (cousin of George Liddell) descend from.

[Matthew Langley]

The speculative tree could look like

John Peake m. Agnes Winter

______________________________|______________________________
| |
William Peake m. Dorothy Jenkins Margaret Peake m. William Mordaunt
| |
| |
Robert Peake m. Elizabeth Beckwith Sir Henry Strangways m. Margaret Manners
| |
| |
William Peake m. Anne Acton Sir Giles Strangways m. Joan Wadham
| |
| |
Sir Robert Peake d. 1667 John Strangways m. Dorothy Thynne
|
|
Jane Strangways m. George Liddell


The years wouldn't really fit well for a daughter of John Strangways m. Dorothy Tyhnne marrying George Liddel who would either be born 1615 or 1634 and the youngest child I can seemingly find of those Strangways is 1585.

[Matthew Langley]

I will add that the Liddells George may come from do descend from a Strangeways... George Liddels theoretical 2nd Great Grandfather Thomas Liddell married a Barbara Strangeways daughter of a Richard Strangeways. Where this Richard fits into all the Strangeways is seemingly unknown. I'm not sure on the years yet though it's possible a connection might be there too.

[Matthew Langley]

My chart was off, missing one generation

John Peake m. Agnes Winter
______________________________|______________________________
| |
William Peake m. Dorothy Jenkins Margaret Peake m. William Mordaunt
| |
| |

Robert Peake m. Elizabeth Beckwith Jane Mourdant m. Giles Strangways
| |
| |
William Peake m. Anne Acton Sir Henry Strangways m. Margaret Manners
| |
| |
Sir Robert Peake d. 1667 Sir Giles Strangways m. Joan Wadham

|
|
John Strangways m. Dorothy Thynne
|
|
Jane Strangways m. George Liddell

Of course if Liddell Strangways ancestry above George fits into that right tree somewhere that would be another fit.


I can't seem to find anything more on Richard Strangways father of Barbra m. Thomas Liddell. All entries I find seem to reference him only in reference to the Liddells. Some say heir and others say Barbara was a co-heir, and they often list Richard Strangways as "Esq"... That's all I can find.

[Matthew Langley]

Btw would love any feedback from anyone, maybe someone here is familiar with any of these families involved?

I'm flounder, I'm not used to or any good at this type of genealogy.

[Matthew Langley]

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 5:17:30 PM UTC-8, Matthew Langley wrote:
> Btw would love any feedback from anyone, maybe someone here is familiar with any of these families involved?
>
> I'm flounder, I'm not used to or any good at this type of genealogy.

Another place confirming the Strangways ancestry of John Strangways m. Dorothy Tyhnne leads up to to Giles Strangways m. Jane Mourdant

This is the History of Parliament entry for Sir GIles Strangways
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/strangways-sir-giles-i-1486-1546

There it links to his grandson Giles Strangways m Joan Wadham

So looking at birth years to see if Richard Strangways father of Barbara m. Thomas Liddell, I can't find concrete numbers. Thomas Liddell who married Barbara purchased Ravensworth in 1607. Haven't found many other dates for reference.

Multiple trees seem to put Barbara's birth at 1532 (Thomas Liddell's at 1528) and her father Richard's at 1485. Not sure if that's right but it's potentially a reference to consider.

Giles Strangways who married Jane Mourdant was born 1528 so if that 1485 time frame is correct he's definitely too old to be a descendant of the Mourdant (and subsequently Peakes) via this line at least, though those dates might be off.

[Matthew Langley]

So looking at George LIddell's will
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Liddell-205

"
GEORGE LYDDALL
WILL
Made on 15 November 1703
Proved on 28 January 1705
In the name of God Amen: I, George Lyddall of ye Parish of St. Peter’s in ye County of New Kent in Virga, Gent: doe & imprimis,

I give and bequeath unto my well beloved son in law Capt. Joseph Harwood and his wife, my father and mother’s pictures in Little, they have in their possession

Item I give and bequeath unto my grandson George Wilkinson my mare Benny, ye first mare foul she brings maybe and remain to his sister Judith Wilkinson,

Item, I give and bequeath unto my grandson Thomas Harwood, son of Capt. Joseph Harwood my Black Rapier.

Item I give and bequeath unto my deare and loving wife Jane Lyddall my two negroes by name Harry & Hannah & all their future increase and I hereby ordain and appoint my Beloved wife Jane Lyddall Full & sole Executrix of this my last will and testament giving & bequeathing unto her all my whole Estate that Remains after ye payment of ye above Legacies. I say all my Estate that remaineth both Real & Personal whether here or in England, and in Witness whereof I have here (Revoking all other wills) sett my hand & Seale this fifteenth day of November 1703.

Proved January 28th 1705 by ye oaths of Thomas Hen(de)rson and James Melons.
Witnesses Thos. Henderson, Sarah Henderson, James Melons and Stephen Sunter.[2][3]
"

It seems he left some land in England to his wife Jane... Maybe some land record somewhere survives that contains some key info.

[Matthew Langley]

Something interesting

http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/wilkinson/4342/

"
"In a Richmond News article, dated February 16, 1901, honoring John Bacon Clopton, the grandson of William and Joyce, states: "William Clopton, Jr. married Joyce Wilkinson, one of the most beautiful and charming belles of the Colonial era of Virginia, the daughter of George Wilkinson and Sarah Lydall. Sarah Lydall was the daughter of Col. George Lydall, of the British Army, and of his wife Jane Churchill, aunt of John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough."Note: The Lyddall Pedigree Chart shows Sarah as George's first wife.
"

Now the last part about George's first wife being Sarah in the Lyddall Pedigree is wrong, I've linked the images above, Sarah is listed as a sister of George not his wife.

I haven't been able to verify the party about the article saying

"Sarah Lydall was the daughter of Col. George Lydall, of the British Army, and of his wife Jane Churchill, aunt of John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough"


I see a reference to that same 1901 article here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_Golden_Horseshoe_Expedition

"In a Richmond news article, dated February 16, 1901, honoring John Bacon Clopton, the grandson of William Clopton Jr.. The following is a copy of a handwritten statement, signed and sealed to be found among the John Bacon Clopton papers at Duke University Library, Durham, North Carolina:"

Apparently it's part of the "John Bacon Clopton papers" at Duke University Library

http://library.duke.edu/rubenstein/findingaids/cloptonfam/

I haven't found anything else to verify George's wife as Jane Churchill daughter of John Churchill of Mintern

[Matthew Langley]

Looking on family search I can find the baptism record of George's listed sister, Sarah, mentioned in the pedigree here

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/antiquities-durham/vol2/pp207-218#h3-0007

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N58V-CWL

at

GATESHEAD,DURHAM,ENGLAND

[Matthew Langley]

Stepping back I'm trying to establish why people seemingly have so convinced he belongs to the Liddell family of Ravensworth.



It seems at least as early as around 1908 people were tying him to that family

https://books.google.com/books?id=nk4SAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=George+Liddell+OR+Lyddal+OR+Lidel+OR+Lydal+OR+Lidle+OR+Lyddall+Virginia&source=bl&ots=atls56Fl9S&sig=Yg2-XtXwW-ViTO2bAcbnKRMdGQ0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEupul5uPQAhUO9GMKHSKbAdM4ChDoAQgkMAM#v=onepage&q=George%20Liddell%20OR%20Lyddal%20OR%20Lidel%20OR%20Lydal%20OR%20Lidle%20OR%20Lyddall%20Virginia&f=false

"
LYDDALL. New Kent county.
Arms: Argent, fretty gules on a chief of the last three leopards* faces or.

Col. George Lyddall of the above county was a son of Sir Thomas Lyddall of Ravenholm Castle, Durham, and his wife, Bridget, daughter of Edward Woodward of Lee. She was Maid of Honor to the Queen of Bohemia. She married, 2nd, Thomas Heneage of Greys Inn, Surrey (Le Neve's Knights). Col. George Lyddall died 19 Jan., 1705 (St. Peter's Parish Register, New Kent).
"

Here in 1902 they identify him as brother of the above specified Thomas Lyddall instead of son

https://books.google.com/books?id=sCUjAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA268&dq=George+Liddell+OR+Lyddal+OR+Lidel+OR+Lydal+OR+Lidle+OR+Lyddall+Virginia&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi10I3g6OPQAhVow1QKHSykCzYQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=George%20Liddell%20OR%20Lyddal%20OR%20Lidel%20OR%20Lydal%20OR%20Lidle%20OR%20Lyddall%20Virginia&f=false


In 1915

https://books.google.com/books?id=CWiel4PVkEkC&pg=PA281&dq=George+Liddell+OR+Lyddal+OR+Lidel+OR+Lydal+OR+Lidle+OR+Lyddall+Virginia&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi10I3g6OPQAhVow1QKHSykCzYQ6AEILDAD#v=onepage&q=George%20Liddell%20OR%20Lyddal%20OR%20Lidel%20OR%20Lydal%20OR%20Lidle%20OR%20Lyddall%20Virginia&f=false


So far this seems to be the earliest reference I can find in 1893
"The ancestry of Benjamin Harrison"

https://books.google.com/books?id=IeVDAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA26&dq=George+Liddell+OR+Lyddal+OR+Lidel+OR+Lydal+OR+Lidle+OR+Lyddall+Virginia&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAssWd7ePQAhVfImMKHZQQAKg4KBDoAQgjMAI#v=onepage&q=George%20Liddell%20OR%20Lyddal%20OR%20Lidel%20OR%20Lydal%20OR%20Lidle%20OR%20Lyddall%20Virginia&f=false

"
Sir Thomas Lyddal, Knt., called “Sr Tho Lydall” above, name now Liddell, was the eldest son of Thomas, and is said in Collins’s Peerage ofEngland to have died in 1627, “in his father’s lifetime, leaving issue by Bridget (who was maid of honour to the Queen of Bohemia), daughter of Edward (sic) \Voodward of Lee, near “'indsor, Esq., one son Sir Thomas.” Collins adds, “(She was secondly married to Thomas Heneage of Battersea in Surry, Esq., nephew of Sir Thomas Heneage, Knt.)” Thomas Lyddal, the father of Bridget’s first husband, had a fifth son, George: was not this the resident of York County, Virginia, who was co-exeeutor of Bassett’s will with Nathaniel Bacon, Esq.? Sir Robert Peake, KL, citizen and goldsmith of London, in his will dated May 15, 1666, abstracted in New England Ifist. and Geneal. Register, Vol. XXXVIL leaves 3001. to “my cousin and sometime servant George Lyddall, in Virginia, gentleman.”
"



It seems the only two things people use to connect George Lyddall of Virginia to the Liddells in Durham seems to be:


1)

Nathaniel Bacon, 1620-1692 who was Acting Governor of Virginia and a son of Rev James Bacon m. Martha Woodward (he was a cousin of Nathaniel Bacon rebel) is linked. Martha Woodwar d seems to be the sister of a Bridget Woodward who married Thomas Liddell son of Thomas Liddell m. Isabel Anderson (George Lyddall of Virginia is alleged to be a son of either Thomas, though seemingly he would fit better as a grandson of the elder Thomas).

George Lyddall connects to him via William Bassett of Virginia who apparently left a will in 1671:

https://books.google.com/books?id=IeVDAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=%22my+deare+Brother+Nathaniel+Bacon%22&source=bl&ots=Qp1cIAj-m_&sig=3AnE0lJ1Jd-KYDNtJtfF3FRtuns&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiYi8fe8-PQAhXBw1QKHYQ4BPcQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22my%20deare%20Brother%20Nathaniel%20Bacon%22&f=false

He lists in his will two executors. "my deare Brother Nathaniel Bacon, Esqr." and George Lyddall.

Because of that it is believed William Bassett was married to a sister of Nathaniel Bacon.


2)

This second connection is also tied to the Bacons. George Lyddall's daughter Ann married an Edmund Bacon of Virginia (was given 1700 acres by George Lyddall as part of the marriage). Edmund's ancestry is a mystery though it is believed he relates to the same Bacons as both Nathaniel Bacons



So far that seems to be all I can find possibly linking George Lyddall to the Liddells of Ravenholm. I certainly could be missing something though.

[Matthew Langley]

Following more of the trail of what is known of George, a good list of records are here

http://my-hakel-ancestry.net/aqwn28.htm

"
1657 Dec 27: Captn: George Lydall: New Kent Co: 2390 acres on the south side of York River: 1750 acres behind the land of Captn. John West called Chamockin rung by Black Creek: 640 acres the residue & c. on the south east side of Black Creek: Land Office Patents # 4, 1655-1664 pg 214 on reel 4: Library of Virginia Archives section

1662 Oct 12: Captn: George Lydall: New Kent Co: 3306 acres on both sides of Black Creek and the eastern branch aforesaid creek: Land Office Patents # 4 1655-1664 pg 444 on reel 4: Library of Virginia Archives section

By October 1662, Anthony Arnold was established in New Kent County and had land on the Black Creek with neighboring land owners, Capt. George Lydall and Col. John West. Black Creek is in the present day Hanover County and it empties into the Pamunkey River a little north and east of Tunstall.

Nov. 17, 1682 petition of George Lyddall to Henry Chicheley, Deputy Governor, asking to be reimbursed by the public for several sums expended by him at the Mattaponi Garrison. Includes account of expenditures. George is petitioning as Commander of garrison at Mattaponi for payment of his horse on 17 Nov 1682.
"

He got a sizable amount of land next to Captain John West. That John West seems to have been acting Governor of Virginia and the son of Thomas West, 2nd Baron De La Warr

[Matthew Langley]

According to this:
http://www.evmedia.com/virginia/

Captain John West was George Lyddall's sponsor for his arrival in 1654

[Matthew Langley]

I did find a reference to the two generations of George Liddells in Durham...

George Liddell 1615-1664
George Liddell 1634-?

https://books.google.com/books?id=2_UKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA586&lpg=PA586&dq=George+Lyddall+OR+liddell+OR+lydal+OR+lidel+OR+Lydall+OR+Lidell+OR+Lidle+OR+Ledell+OR+liddle+OR+lidlle+OR+ledil+Durham+1664+OR+1663&source=bl&ots=QUb_3Qhzpw&sig=CJeOgjmepf0SxCpfFU1xj-8qSYA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHqPLVw-XQAhUM_mMKHR2ACEAQ6AEIJzAC#v=onepage&q=George%20Lyddall%20OR%20liddell%20OR%20lydal%20OR%20lidel%20OR%20Lydall%20OR%20Lidell%20OR%20Lidle%20OR%20Ledell%20OR%20liddle%20OR%20lidlle%20OR%20ledil%20Durham%201664%20OR%201663&f=false

"
Liddell, G. (1661). There were two George Liddells living at at this period. George Liddell (born 1615, died 1664), son of Mr. Liddell, M.P. for this 164o(1); and another George Liddell (born 1634, and living in 1666), only son of the above named George. Mr. Liddell, the candi late, was probably one of these two.
"

No ties to Virginia George Lyddall though the second place to identify these two generations. Obviously if the younger one is the same as Virginia he would be in Virginia in 1661.

[Matthew Langley]

One thing somehow evaded my thought, but I see that the Liddell Pedigree linked shows George Liddell bapt 1634 was still "living 1666"

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/sites/default/files/publications/pubid-455/images/fig71.gif

Unfortunately it doesn't cite where they get this, though George Lyddall of Virginia was mentioned in the will of Sir Robert Peake in 1666, so certainly could be where they got reference he as alive at the point (obviously there could be plenty of other connections, but interesting the year matches).

I did find something additionally interesting for a George Liddell in 1666

https://books.google.com/books?id=iqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=george+liddell+OR+Lidel+OR+Lidell+OR+liddel+OR+Lyddal+OR+Lyddall+OR+Lydall+OR+Lydal+1666&source=bl&ots=zM9G2Z6hho&sig=RFVNICkd9VR9e8_rlk5S5nCewJg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjk74zJ2ujQAhXEMGMKHQN1DP44ChDoAQgsMAc#v=onepage&q=george%20liddell%20OR%20Lidel%20OR%20Lidell%20OR%20liddel%20OR%20Lyddal%20OR%20Lyddall%20OR%20Lydall%20OR%20Lydal%201666&f=false


"1666
June 29
George Liddell, of Newcastle on Tyne, Esq" Widr, about 26, & Mrs Rachell Izatt, of St Sepulchre's, London, Spr, abt 17; her father's consent; at St James, Clerkenwell."

I don't think this is the reference for "living 1666" since the Pedigree lists no wife for George Liddell, a marriage, just "living 1666".

What's interesting though is Izatt might be a variant of Izard?

http://forebears.io/surnames/izard

In this definition of the surname it even gives this specific marriage as an example:

"1661. Married — Richard Stack and Miriam Izard: Marriage Alleg. (Canterbury).
1666. — George Liddell and Rachael Izatt: ibid."

Izard run a bell when I saw it due to an unknown connection of a descendant of George Lyddall in New Kent, VA to an Izard.

George Lyddall
Ann Lyddall m. Edmund Bacon
John Bacon m. Sarah Langston and second Susannah Parke

https://books.google.com/books?id=wZS_LGEg7kAC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=Frances+OR+francis+Izard+OR+izzard+OR+izardd+OR+izarrd+john+bacon&source=bl&ots=0z5SF41m4s&sig=t97S2Xf68tUVaf8An5chN42cLs0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLscjK3ujQAhUG0WMKHfZGDnQQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&q=Frances%20OR%20francis%20Izard%20OR%20izzard%20OR%20izardd%20OR%20izarrd%20john%20bacon&f=false

" In a fragment of a docket of the General Court appears the title of a suit "William Clopton, the younger, and Joyce his wife vs. John Bacon and John Turner, executors of Frances Izard, deceased." William Clopton, of New Kent, married, on January 27, 1718, Joyce Wilkinson, who was doubtless a daughter of Thomas Wilkinson and granddaughter of Francis Izard.

In 1681 Mrs. Frances Izard patented "The Brook" estate in Henrico county (under the name of " Uppenum Brooke "), containing 1,030 acres. In 1735 John Bacon, of New Kent, petitioned the Council for a regrant of this land as having descended to him from the said Mrs. Izard. In 1727 a new grant was issued to him."


So John Bacon grandson of George Lyddall of Virginia said land "descended" to him from Mrs Frances Izard (wife of Francis Izard).

It seems the mystery of relation between John Bacon and Izard has remained a mystery for a very long time and Francis and Frances Izard of Virginia seem a mystery, not many records exist of them that I can find. They did have land on Black Creek which is where George Lyddall had land.

Obviously seeing that marriage between George Liddell of "Newcastle on Tyne, Esq" (where the Liddell's of Ravensworth were from) to a Rachel Izatt (possibly Izard) definitely is interesting.

Now that marriage record says George Liddell is "about 26" in 1666, which would make him born in 1640, not the best fit for a George Liddell born in 1634. It does say he was a widower so maybe they underestimated his age?

I'm also unsure of the time frame... if this is George Lyddall of Virginia then he was back in England in 1666. In his will in 1704 he did say he had lands still in England so it's entirely possibly he went back and forth. Also Sir Robert Peake made his will in London in 15 May, 1666, I guess it's possible George went back to visit his cousin who was making his will (and probably dying or considering he might die since he died a year later)?

I don't seem to find a record of George Lyddall in 1666 in Virginia specifically that year to conflict, though that doesn't mean anything of course. Still very interesting that a grandson of his seemed to have land from an Izard "descend" to him and here's a George Liddell marrying a Rachel Izard.

I guess the narrative might be Francis Izard is the father of Rachel. I need to find more about Francis Izard.

The marriage record for George Liddell says Rachel's father gave permission, though doesn't mention him, maybe a record exists somewhere.

[Matthew Langley]

I'll also add that John Bacon had multiple descendants use Izard as a first name.

[Matthew Langley]

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 8:21:06 PM UTC-8, Matthew Langley wrote:
> I'll also add that John Bacon had multiple descendants use Izard as a first name.

A list of the 19 people George Lyddall transported in 1662

"CAPT. GEORGE LYDDALL, 3306 acs. New Kent Co., 12 Oct. 1662, p. 324, (444). On both sides of Black Cr., running by land of Anthony Arnold &c. to Wanieoake (or Warrieoake) Sw, &c. over Maddicon path to the mountains & along Col. Jno. West back line. 2900 acs. granted to sd. Lyddall 27 Sept. 1657, 1750 acs. of which was granted to Joseph Croshall 8 Nov. 1653 & purchased of sd. Croshaw & patented in name of sd. Lyddall 25 Nov. 1654; 640 acs. by patent dated 27 Dec. 1657 & 916 acs. newly taken up & due for trans. of 19 pers: Charles Greene, Jno. Kippin, Wm. Sanders, Edward Frost, Will Jones, Thomas Core, Francis Jeffs (?), Edward Cooper, Francis Parker, Isaak Ball, Thomas Leonard, Wm. Addison, Wm. Leech, Alice Goodale, An Church, Charles Farthing, Richard White, Abram Iveson, Isaak Brumly."

http://www.frostandgilchrist.com/getperson.php?personID=I30270&tree=frostinaz01


Were the people someone transported typically connected to them somehow?

[Matthew Langley]

Regarding George Liddell m. Rachel Izatt " of St Sepulchre's, London"

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMQ5-N5V

Name George Liddall
Gender Male
Christening Date 09 Jan 1667
Christening Place ST SEPULCHRE,LONDON,LONDON,ENGLAND
Death Date 25 Oct 1668
Father's Name George Liddall
Mother's Name Rachell

Looks like they had a son George who died one year late.


In looking for any connections of George Lyddall of Virgina to St Sepulchre London

https://books.google.com/books?id=0cY9AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA305&lpg=PA305&dq=anne+waters+st+sepulchre+london&source=bl&ots=v4xJnFtpUt&sig=Uf44RwXVmbrN2y0Z8BodMNKraZY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjy_cbq7-jQAhUH9mMKHe2SAv4Q6AEIMDAF#v=onepage&q=anne%20waters%20st%20sepulchre%20london&f=false

"ANNE WATERS of St. Sepulchres, London, widow. Will 29 September 1697; proved 4 July 1700. Son John Waters, who for divers years past hath been gone to Virginia, 55 and no more. Son Samuel Waters, and Margaret his wife, Ios apiece. Daughter Elizabeth Overton, now in Virginia, IOS, and William ‘her husband, Ios. Son-in-law Mr. William Goodwin, 105. for a ring. Brother-in-law Caleb Millett, Ios. Son Thomas Waters, residuary legatee, and he the sole Executor."


I believe this is the Anne Waters wife of Samuel Waters and she is believed to be Anne Peake and mentioned in the will of Sir Robert Peake ... from his will

"To my cousin _____ Waters, relict of Samuel Waters, skinner, deceased, twenty pounds"


Further it seems George Lyddall's son patented land with or next to William Overton that is probably mentioned

"
In Virginia, George Lydall’s son John Lyddall patented land with William Overton, their properties adjoining in New Kent."

https://harrisandrelatedfamiliesofvirginia.wordpress.com/2014/04/26/10/

[Matthew Langley]

https://archive.org/stream/jstor-4242619/4242619_djvu.txt

"
Francis Nicholson, Lt.-Gov., to William Overton and John Lydall.

837 acres lying in St. Peter's Parish, New Kent Co. (now Hanover),
above main fork of Pamunkey, next above a dividend of land granted
Jonathan Norwood and Ambrose Clare, late in the tenure of Sam'l
Ousteen. Beginning at a white oak at Mouth of a small Pritt on ye
South side of Western Branch of the Pamunkey [South Anna] & then
down south side, &c.

(This is land on which Barbara (Overton) Winston resided at her
death in 1766.)
"

[Matthew Langley]

I previously showed

https://books.google.com/books?id=2_UKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA586&lpg=PA586&dq=george+liddell+1634&source=bl&ots=QUb_4ShEqv&sig=nlUceKIbGDrTbnAuJ-1WzkfQWKk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj295_NhOnQAhVW2WMKHT_qD5oQ6AEINzAJ#v=onepage&q=liddell&f=false

"
Liddell, G. (1661). There were two George Liddells living at at this period. George Liddell (born 1615, died 1664), son of Mr. Liddell, M.P. for this 164o(1); and another George Liddell (born 1634, and living in 1666), only son of the above named George. Mr. Liddell, the candi late, was probably one of these two.
"

Apparently either father or son were M.P. in 1661... in the same book it says

"
1661 Sir Francis Anderson, Kt., Sir John Marley, Kt., George Liddell.
Liddell petitioned (May 15th), against the return of Marley; and he was brought to the bar and justified his petition; but no report appears.
On the death of Sir J. Marley, new writ, October 27th.
"

I also find

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1660-1690/constituencies/newcastle-upon-tyne#footnote1_i5ucyt0

"
Anderson and Marlay were returned by ‘the greater part of the burgesses’, and when George Liddell, a royalist conspirator, petitioned on 15 May, he alleged no electoral irregularities but only Marlay’s betrayal in 1658. The Commons spent the whole morning on the affair, but eventually rejected the petition, and Liddell took no further action.
"

It refers to George Liddell being a "royalist conspirator"

I know the narrative of George Lyddall coming to Virginia was of being a royalist fleeing England alongside other royalists.

[Matthew Langley]

Found a will in the Canterbury wills for a George Liddell in 1672

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B98R41KyPFdycC14R1N1SlJ3cjA/view?usp=sharing

I'm having a very hard time making out any names in that, would appreciate any help.

It seems he names a wife and daughter though I can't make them out. I think I see

"to my father Edward Izatt" which of course catches my interest, if that indeed is the case.

[taf]

On Sunday, December 11, 2016 at 3:35:44 AM UTC-8, Matthew Langley wrote:
> Found a will in the Canterbury wills for a George Liddell in 1672
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B98R41KyPFdycC14R1N1SlJ3cjA/view?usp=sharing
>
> I'm having a very hard time making out any names in that, would appreciate any help.
>
> It seems he names a wife and daughter though I can't make them out.

Looks like Rachel to me - both of them. Note though that it is 'her' daughter, in the first instance where he names the two executors, but 'my' daughter later, and in the probate the latter is "Rachaeli filia et alter Execut'". He calls himself a Royal Navy Commander of H.M. frigate Roebuck.

> I think I see
>
> "to my father Edward Izatt" which of course catches my interest, if that indeed is the case.

Yes, that is how I read it.

You can find mention of Capt. (courtesy title for Commanders) George Liddell and the Roebuck in the Calendar of State Papers for 1666 and 1667. The latter includes a letter of complaint: "John Goodier to the Navy Com[missione]rs. Complains of the rude and insufferable carriage of Capt. Liddell, commander of the Roebuck; he never goes on board night or day, and if told of danger, he defies all the Navy Officers, and leaves the King's ship in danger of being lost, the French capers appearing daily upon the coast; he will observe no orders but his own pleasure, which he says shall be done; he carried an instrument of music by a boy up and down the town, and leads the gentlemen's sons to ill-houses. [Goodier] Does not wish the disgrace to reflect on them. It is a pity that a fellow has any command who cannot command himself."

The following would at first seem relevant, but proves puzzling:

Marriage allegation (Vicar General, Abp of Cant), 29 Mar 1666 Mr George Liddell of Newcastle upon Tyne, esq, widr, about 26, and Mrs Rachell Izatt, of St Sepulchre's London, spr, about 17, with father's consent

The problem is that there is no way a child of this marriage, or any child of this Rachel could be the old enough to be named executor in 1672.

taf

[John Higgins]

I think the supposed marriage of George "Lyddall" of VA and Jane Strangways is very doubtful, at least with the parents of Jane as suggested here. There is detailed pedigree of the family of Strangways of Melbury Sampford in the 1677 visitation of Devonshire (Harleian Society, Visitation Series, vol. 117 [1977] - not available online AFAIK). The info for John Strangways and Dorothy Thynne shows a family of 5 sons and 3 daughters, including Grace who married Edmund [not Edward] Chamberlayne - but NOT including any daughter named Jane.

More important, the entry for John Strangways says that his will was proved 23 Jan 1593/4. Obviously a daughter Jane would have to have been born before that (or at best shortly thereafter, if posthumous) - making her at least 20 years older than her supposed husband George Lyddall. Very unlikely.... And since you know that the George Liddell [not Lyddall] b. 1615 was married to a woman named Susannah, the marriage to Jane Strangways is even more unlikely.

You note that the book on the Harris family that you cite "makes a lot of connections without proof". Attaching Jane Strangways, whoever she may have been, to the family of Melbury Sampford is one of these unsupported connections. And I think the efforts of various VA genealogists to link George Lyddall of VA to the family of Liddell of Ravensworth is likely another case of "the name's the same" - at least so far.

[Matthew Langley]

Thanks!

> Looks like Rachel to me - both of them. Note though that it is 'her' daughter, in the first instance where he names the two executors, but 'my' daughter later, and in the probate the latter is "Rachaeli filia et alter Execut'". He calls himself a Royal Navy Commander of H.M. frigate Roebuck.
>
> > I think I see
> >
> > "to my father Edward Izatt" which of course catches my interest, if that indeed is the case.
>
> Yes, that is how I read it.
>
> You can find mention of Capt. (courtesy title for Commanders) George Liddell and the Roebuck in the Calendar of State Papers for 1666 and 1667. The latter includes a letter of complaint: "John Goodier to the Navy Com[missione]rs. Complains of the rude and insufferable carriage of Capt. Liddell, commander of the Roebuck; he never goes on board night or day, and if told of danger, he defies all the Navy Officers, and leaves the King's ship in danger of being lost, the French capers appearing daily upon the coast; he will observe no orders but his own pleasure, which he says shall be done; he carried an instrument of music by a boy up and down the town, and leads the gentlemen's sons to ill-houses. [Goodier] Does not wish the disgrace to reflect on them. It is a pity that a fellow has any command who cannot command himself."
>

Very fascinating, thanks. Sounds like a real winner lol.

> The following would at first seem relevant, but proves puzzling:
>
> Marriage allegation (Vicar General, Abp of Cant), 29 Mar 1666 Mr George Liddell of Newcastle upon Tyne, esq, widr, about 26, and Mrs Rachell Izatt, of St Sepulchre's London, spr, about 17, with father's consent
>
> The problem is that there is no way a child of this marriage, or any child of this Rachel could be the old enough to be named executor in 1672.
>
> taf

Yeah that does seem not to fit. With that said a George Liddell with a wife Rachemal Izatt it seems unlikely it's anyone else.

I'm not familiar with this format of will, is the second part a record of the will being probated? Confirming this George Liddell is in fact dead by 1672?

Even if the daughter was his (and not Rachel's) that still is hard to fit with the age on the transcribed marriage recorord... If he was 26 in 1666 then he'd only be 32 in 1772. I'm not sure the age required to be an executor but that doesn't seem to fit either way.

If he was indeed the George Liddell identified in the previous linked pedigree born 1634 that would make him 38 in 1772, which could fit for having a daughter seemingly old enough. Or if he simply born anytime around then or earlier.

It seems the marriage record might have transcribed his age incorrectly if this is the same George.


I could swear last night in searching for "George Liddell 1672" it took me to a navy summary site that summarized this George and referenced 3 sources. Not finding it now. With that said one of the sources was:

https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA170&lpg=PA170&dq=George+Liddell+OR+liddel+OR+Lidell+OR+Lydal+OR+lyddal+OR+lyddall+OR+lydall+1672+navy&sig=m9Ba9vFEx1M6dupjk2G_v0y2kKo&id=eCsIAAAAQAAJ&ots=UUWL8r9Wy1&output=text

"
LIDDELL, George,—was the fifth son of sir Thomas Liddell, of Ravenswortb, in the county of Durham. 'In 1661 he served as lieutenant, first of the Assurance, and afterwards of the Monk. In 1664 he was made lieutenant of the Hampshire; and, on the rupture with Holland in the fame year, commander of the Hare firefhip. In the year 1666 he was promoted to the Roebuck. He continued to command this snip several years, for we find him captain of her on the Mediterranean station in the year 1671. This is the latest account we have been able to obtain of him
"

They identify him as "fifth son of Sir Thomas Liddell, of Ravensworth". That could either fit for George Liddell b. 1615 or possibly two generations before.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/sites/default/files/publications/pubid-455/images/fig70.gif

[Matthew Langley]

Thanks, agreed. I didn't see any evidence at all for a Strangways marriage, simply found it interesting it would possibly make him cousins with Sir Robert Peake. I suspect their relation is probably closer than that however.

Also agreed on Ravensworth connection, so far the only and very weak arguments I can see:

1) George Lyddall of VA was co-exec of William Bassett's will alongside Nathaniel Bacon whose mother was a Woodward likely sister of a Woodward who married Thomas Liddell of Ravensworth (brother of George Liddell b. 1615 and uncle of George Liddell b. 1634). George Lyddall of VA had a daughter who married Edmund Bacon of VA, his ancestry is unknown however.

2) The linked pedigree identified George Liddell b. 1634 as "living 1666" which matches the will of Sir Robert Peake who mentions George Liddell, cousin, gentlemen, of Virginia.



So far that is all I can seemingly find... as to the actual ancestry of George Lyddall of VA if it isn't the Ravensworth family... the only clues seem to be:

1) The will of Sir Robert Peake, which again calls him cousin and gentlemen. Unfortunately Peake's ancestry has many gaps and George's are all gaps. It could be a cousin via George's wife (maybe Jane was a Peake or an earlier wife), his mother, etc...

2) George Lyddall's son patented land with a William Overton that seems to be the same one that married Elizabeth Waters daughter of Anne whose will I linked previously. She seems likely to be the Waters wife of Samuel Waters relict mentioned in Sir Robert Peake's will...

3) Additional connections might include John West (son of Thomas West, 2nd Baron De La Warr) who brought him over via his headright claim in 1654 and then George was assigned 1750 acres land via Joseph Croshaw behind John West's land

4) In his will he mentions his wife getting land of his in England, so some records might exist somewhere of the disposal of that.

[John Higgins]

I suspect the navy account of George Liddell was slightly wrong in specifying the relationship to Sir Thomas Liddell. George Liddell (b. 1615) was the sixth, not fifth, son of Sir Thomas Liddell, 1st Baronet - per the pedigree from Surtees' Durham cited at the end of your note. (The next Sir Thomas Liddell, son of the 1st Bt., did not have a son named George. And I don't see any earlier George in the pedigree who could fit the navy account.)

If George (b. 1615) was the one mentioned in the navy account, he would have been 45 in 1661 when he is said to be a lieutenant. I may well be wrong, but that seems pretty old to be a lieutenant. Also I would have expected the Surtees (or his source) would have been aware that George was in the navy and would have have mentioned it. Accordingly, I suspect that George Liddell the navy officer was more likely the younger George, b. 1634, who would have been 27 in 1661. (of course, Surtees' failure to mention the RN connection applies here as well.)

In any event, if George Liddell the navy officer is either of the two Georges here, that pretty much rules out that either could be George Lyddall of VA.

[Matthew Langley]

True.

Honestly it doesn't feel like either is a good fit for the navy officer, other than the one book that says he's a son of Thomas Liddell. If it is the younger one then apparently the Surtees knew he was "living 1666" but didn't mention any navy service starting 1661, or his marriage in 1666, or his will in 1672, etc...

I also agree that it doesn't seem like a good fit for the older one, both age and it says he was buried 1664.

Also in 1661 it seems likely the older one (though possibly the younger one) was M.P. I haven't looked at the dates yet but those may conflict.

[Matthew Langley]

Here's the site I saw previously

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_crewman&id=9601

They list "First Known Service" as 1631 but that seems likely an error and should be 1661

They list three sources.

Biographia Navalis - Volume I - I included the test previously

Commissioned Sea Officers of the Royal Navy

This has very little, just says

L 1661
CA 1665


British Warships in the Age of Sail 1603 - 1714 - I don't have access to this

[Matthew Langley]

As for Lyddall vs Liddell I do see it used mixed in at least some cases, like this:

https://books.google.com/books?id=BSlKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA3123&lpg=PA3123&dq=Francis+Liddell,+or+Lyddall,+Bamborough,+Northumberland&source=bl&ots=YJqdku7n2J&sig=USXqFrMXkBB-hc2uJGcoEqdFl_w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAx7nNme7QAhVMlFQKHTUPAx8Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Francis%20Liddell%2C%20or%20Lyddall%2C%20Bamborough%2C%20Northumberland&f=false

[Matthew Langley]

Another reference to Capt Liddell death on 1672

https://books.google.com/books?id=sikXAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA378&lpg=PA378&dq=%22of+the+death+of+Capt.+Liddell%22&source=bl&ots=xRTKQmkhxg&sig=uR3alFQLtv1fChQTX7vBleVr1g8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiW6aztnO7QAhVL0WMKHYBcCtkQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=%22of%20the%20death%20of%20Capt.%20Liddell%22&f=false

[Matthew Langley]

Here's an image of the will of Sir Robert Peake

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B98R41KyPFdydWZkNGhIQTc4TkU/view?usp=sharing

Figured I'd take a look at the source, though I'm having an equal time making things out though can somewhat follow the section regarding "George Lyddall"

[WJH]

Forgive my intruding, my interest is in the Bowes family but I've had a nagging feeling that George Liddell meant something to me while keeping up with this string and I've now found what it was:

As indicated in here

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/antiquities-durham/vol2/pp207-218#h3-0007

George Liddell, of Newcastle, Gent. about 1612 married Bray, daughter of George Bowes, and sister of Sir George Bowes, of Biddic.

Looking at the pedigrees, my guess would be that this GL is the son of Francis, who was baptised 5/9/1597 and so is the first cousin of Thomas Liddell the first baronet. The pedigree does not indicate whether GL Bapt 1597 had any issue, but if he did then that could easily add another GL to emigrate to Virginia in 1654.

Just a thought and if it has already been discounted then my apologies for raising it again.

Regards

James

[Matthew Langley]

Thanks, that certainly could be the case.

Currently there is just little evidence directly tied to George Lyddall of Virginia to any parentage in England currently.

For over 100 years people have been attaching him to the Liddell of Ravensworth family.

So far this seems to be the earliest reference I can find in 1893
"The ancestry of Benjamin Harrison"

https://books.google.com/books?id=IeVDAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA26&dq=George+Liddell+OR+Lyddal+OR+Lidel+OR+Lydal+OR+Lidle+OR+Lyddall+Virginia&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAssWd7ePQAhVfImMKHZQQAKg4KBDoAQgjMAI#v=onepage&q=George%20Liddell%20OR%20Lyddal%20OR%20Lidel%20OR%20Lydal%20OR%20Lidle%20OR%20Lyddall%20Virginia&f=false

Seemingly these are the only reasons I've been able to gather to make the connection

1. Sir Robert Peake's will in London written in 1666 mentions George Lyddall gentlement, cousin, and "sometimes servant" of Virginia (and he gives him 300 pounds over 3 years).

In the pedigree linked George Lyddall b. 1634 is said "living 1666" without any other real details. That certainly would fit if 1666 is referring to being mentioned in the will of Sir Robert Peake and further details might not be known if he had gone to Virginia.

Honestly, to me that fits better from that perspective than the one who died in 1672 who was in the navy since there were multiple England based records to be found of that one, including a marriage in 1666 (so that Pedigree would seemingly show married in 1666 not "living" without any context). The George in that pedigree seems one who little is known (while a lot is known of multiple others) except he was living in 1666.


2. George Lyddall of Virginia arrived in 1654 and there is seemingly no earlier record confirmed for him in England or Virginia... that would fit if he was born 1634, just coming of age and coming over to Virginia and starting to leave records.


3. In 1671 William Bassett's (of Virginia) will lists as executors his "dear brother" Col Nathaniel Bacon and Mr. George Lyddall.

Nathaniel Bacon's aunt likely was the Woodward who married Thomas Liddell (brother of George Liddell b. 1615)

George Lyddall's daughter Ann married an Edmund Bacon in Virginia as well, people believe Edmund is related to this Nathaniel Bacon though that is completely unproven.


4. The Liddells of Ravensworth were strong royalists (including George Liddell who was M.P. 1661 as I cited in a previous post, who was likely George Liddell b. 1615)... So the narrative is that in 1654 he came alongside other royalists fleeing Cromwell's England.

I haven't fully verified this idea. Genealogies say William Bassett was tied to royalists. The West family seemed to have some ties to Royalist and George Lyddall was transported by John West (son of Thomas West 2nd Baron de la Warre) in 1654 and that same year bought land bordering John West's land.

I haven't fully research this line how tied to royalists certain Virginians might be though I know I've heard the narrative before


5. George Lyddall of Virginia seemed to be of some sort of means and/or connections, this doesn't prove he was of the Liddell's of Ravensworth just suggests that he came from some means and influence before arriving so you'd expect to see some sort of trail.

a) He was transported in 1654 as a headright by Captain John West (acting Governor of Virginia for a period and son of Baron de la Warre). That same year he arrived he bought 1,750 acres from Joseph Croshaw bordering John West (Joseph Croshaw's daughter Unity married the son of Captain John West). He obviously arrived with means to purchase that much land.

b) He was called gentlemen and cousin by Sir Robert Peake in his will in 1666 (and given 300 pounds)

c) In 1657 he got 640 acres for transporting 13 people and in 1662 he gained 916 acres for transporting 19 people. His first land might be the most telling though since he bought it the first year he was there (so had some means on arrival).

d) His ties to Nathaniel Bacon and other notable Virginians.


At least that's my take.

With all that said that's not very strong evidence at all. He may be of a completely different group of Lyddall's in England. Interestingly there's a George Liddell of Montserrat Island in the West Indies of some means not all that far who left a lot of records. Not sure if he's connected to George of Virginia or Liddell's of Ravensworth or both.





Here are references to land acquisitions


1657, Dec 27
Cavaliers and Pioneers, Patent Book 4, Page 359
Capt. George Lyddall, 2390 acres, New Kent Co., VA, Dec 27, 1657, p. 146 (214). 1750 acres behind land of Capt. John West called Chamockin, running to Croshawes extent; 640 acres on S. side of Blacke Cr., behind land of Mr. Brookes. Renewal of patent for 1750 acres granted him Nov 25, 1654, and 640 acres for trans. of 13 pers: William Hill, Robert Harman, Francis Smith, Thomas Smith, John Makepeace, Thomas Masque, Charles Havannest, Penelope Best, Michaell Tacker, Roger Parker, Daniell Welch, John Davis, Thomas Jones. 


1662, Oct 12
CAPT. GEORGE LYDDALL, 3306 acs. New Kent Co., 12 Oct. 1662, p. 324, (444). On both sides of Black Cr., running by land of Anthony Arnold &c. to Wanieoake (or Warrieoake) Sw, &c. over Maddicon path to the mountains & along Col. Jno. West back line. 2900 acs. granted to sd. Lyddall 27 Sept. 1657, 1750 acs. of which was granted to Joseph Cro- shall 8 Nov. 1653 & purchased of sd. Croshaw & patented in name of sd. Lyddall 25 Nov. 1654; 640 acs. by patent dated 27 Dec. 1657 & 916 acs. newly taken up & due for trans. of 19 pers: Charles Greene, Jno. Kippin, Wm. Sanders, Edward Frost, Will Jones, Thomas Core, Francis Jeffs (?), Edward Cooper, Francis Parker, Isaak Ball, Thomas Leonard, Wm. Addison, Wm. Leech, Alice Goodale, An Church, Charles Farthing, Richard White, Abram Iveson, Isaak Brumly.

[Matthew Langley]

Looking a little closer at Sir Robert Peake it seems he was a staunch royalist

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Robert_Peake

"
When the Civil War broke out Peake took up arms on the royal side. He, Faithorne, and Wenceslaus Hollar the engraver were all among the besieged in Basing House, of which Peake acted as lieutenant-governor under the command of John Paulet, 5th Marquis of Winchester. Peake, then lieutenant-colonel, was knighted for his services by Charles I at Oxford on 28 March 1645. On the surrender of Basing House in October 1645 Peake was brought to London, and committed first to Winchester House, and then to Aldersgate. He was subsequently released, but exiled for refusing to take the oath of allegiance to Cromwell.
"

I need to dig and see if there are any detailed records of Sir Robert Peake, he called George Lyddall not just cousin and gent but "sometime servant" so seemingly he worked for him in some capacity.

[Matthew Langley]

I realized the Will of Sir Robert Peake I shared was just the first page, he had quite the extensive will

pg 1
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B98R41KyPFdydWZkNGhIQTc4TkU/view?usp=sharing

pg 2
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B98R41KyPFdyRG1IbVhhMkFCT2c/view?usp=sharing

pg 3
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B98R41KyPFdyeTBiZFd1SnFtRW8/view?usp=sharing

Going to take me a while to dig through that lol, maybe some other hint burried

[John Higgins]

On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 2:42:04 PM UTC-8, Matthew Langley wrote:

>
> 4. The Liddells of Ravensworth were strong royalists (including George Liddell who was M.P. 1661 as I cited in a previous post, who was likely George Liddell b. 1615)... So the narrative is that in 1654 he came alongside other royalists fleeing Cromwell's England.
>

Just to be clear, George Liddell, mentioned in 1661, was not an MP nor was he a candidate for the seat in 1661. He comes into play here in 1661 because he petitioned to challenge the election of Sir John Marlay on the grounds that Marlay had betrayed the royalist cause by accepting money from the Cromwell forces in 1658 to disclose royalist plans. But Liddell himself was not an MP - see the narrative of the Newcastle seat in HOP here:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1660-1690/constituencies/newcastle-upon-tyne

It seems unlikely that this George Liddell, active in the royalist cause in the 1650s, would have gone to Virginia in 1654 and then returned only a few years later.

[Matthew Langley]

https://books.google.com/books?id=xnALAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA250&lpg=PA250&dq=Sir+robert+Peake&source=bl&ots=YjMvO9uCx4&sig=F7ChloNkg7Jq1dziMadvg-Q5qCw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmw5i6gfDQAhUJyGMKHca8D7E4FBDoAQgZMAA#v=onepage&q=Sir%20robert%20Peake&f=false

"
Sir Robert Peake was after a time released, and was succeeded in his business as an engraver and printseller by his younger brother. In the year 1662 William Faithorne dedicated to him "The Art of Graving and Etching, wherein is expressed the way of Graving on Copper," &c. Mr. Money says that his name "is attached to many prints and other engravings now rare. He died in July, 1667, and was buried with great military pomp in St. Sepulchre's Church, Holborn." He had long been a resident in the parish of St. Sepulchre.
"

Apparently Sir Robert Peake was a resident of the St. Sepulchre parish. He died and was buried there a year after George Liddell m. Rachel Izzatt there and the same year they had a son George (who died the next year).

Interesting to see the overlapping parishes despite George Liddell obviously being a different George. Maybe they were cousins.

[Matthew Langley]

I stand corrected.

I agree it would be odd. There's a record in 1662 of a petition by George Lyddall in Virginia so it seems unlikely he jumped back and forth. It would only make sense if that George was George b. 1615 and George Lyddall of VA was b. 1634.

Not saying this is the case, but that scenario does seem plausible.

[Matthew Langley]

Correction George Liddell and Rachel Izatt weren't married there, they were married at St James... It listed Rachel Izatt as of St. Sepulchre, though their son George was christened and buried there (1667 + 1668)

[taf]

On Sunday, December 11, 2016 at 3:22:18 PM UTC-8, John Higgins wrote:

> If George (b. 1615) was the one mentioned in the navy account, he would have
> been 45 in 1661 when he is said to be a lieutenant. I may well be wrong, but
> that seems pretty old to be a lieutenant.

Things get a bit tricky. Originally, Master and Commander (later shortened to simply Commander and formalized as a rank), was the description given a Lieutenant who was given command of a frigate, even though by courtesy they were addressed as 'Captain'. The big step was becoming a Post-Captain - the Captain of a big vessel with a lot of guns. This required a combination of luck and connections, and many a Navy man spent decades never getting that step, and hence technically remained as Lieutenants. A lot of them retired (or declined postings so that the Navy treated them like they were) but some kept trying to soldier on (or, I guess, sailoring on).

This was actually a real problem - their seniority made them first up for new positions even if their health no longer let them perform adequately, nor could their half-pay support them and their wife and children when they didn't have a ship. It was finally addressed by Parliament creating a pension, where the X (the number kept increasing) longest-serving Lieutenants were promoted to Commander on condition that they retire, a solution that worked for everyone. They got a significantly higher amount of pay enough to live on, the navy got some dead weight cleared off their books, the Captains got more active subordinates, and the junior officers had better chance of promotion in their stead.

taf

[taf]

On Sunday, December 11, 2016 at 2:58:36 PM UTC-8, Matthew Langley wrote:

> Very fascinating, thanks. Sounds like a real winner lol.

Hard to say. There has always been friction between the more Puritanical/hierarchical officers and the more hedonistic/independent ones. The latter made the best frigate commanders, much to the chagrin of the former.

> I'm not familiar with this format of will, is the second part a record of the
> will being probated? Confirming this George Liddell is in fact dead by 1672?

Yes.

> Even if the daughter was his (and not Rachel's) that still is hard to fit with

> the age on the transcribed marriage record... If he was 26 in 1666 then he'd

> only be 32 in 1772. I'm not sure the age required to be an executor but that
> doesn't seem to fit either way.

It is worse than that - he never would have named her executor if she wasn't old enough.

[Matthew Langley]

What would that age be? 16, 18, 21?

If say 21 then if he had her when he was 18 then he'd be 39 and born 1633, 16 then 1638.

Obviously he could be older as well. I'm guessing the "26" on the marriage record was transcribed incorrectly. Otherwise the George Liddell that married Rachell Izatt must be a different George, which seems less likely considering his wife named Rachel and "father" named Edward Izatt. That of course would make him already having a daughter named Rachel a coincidence and of course the will being incorrect in calling that his current wife's daughter.


Of course maybe that's just a coincidence and there's two George Liddells connected to Izatts.

Either way I guess we have incorrect data in what we're seeing, one way or the other.

Then of course there's the question of whether George Liddell of the Navy was a son of Sir Thomas Liddell of Ravensworth as the one record suggests. I haven't found anything additional to verify it, though obviously if he's the son of Thomas Liddell m. Isabel Anderson that would mean the pedigree in the Surtees was wrong saying he was buried 1664. It would also mean they showed his first wife as Susanna (which could fit since the marriage record said widower) though apparently the Surtees chose not to include any details of his second marriage or Navy Career. The same goes if he's George the Younger and the lack of detail in the pedigree, especially "living 1666" when that would be when he was married, as well as christening records for a son George 1667 that was buried 1668 (both at St. Sepulchre).


So many pieces that don't quite fit.

I'm having a hard time fitting George Liddell with the will of 1672 who served in the navy since 1661 with either ones in the pedigree (b. 1615 & b. 1634) though it's not impossible. Of course either the pedigree or the claim in the one book that he was son of Sir Thomas Liddell of Ravensworth is wrong, or both.

@John

Regarding George Liddell and parliament, a previously linked book:

https://books.google.com/books?id=2_UKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA586&lpg=PA586&dq=George+Lyddall+OR+liddell+OR+lydal+OR+lidel+OR+Lydall+OR+Lidell+OR+Lidle+OR+Ledell+OR+liddle+OR+lidlle+OR+ledil+Durham+1664+OR+1663&source=bl&ots=QUb_3Qhzpw&sig=CJeOgjmepf0SxCpfFU1xj-8qSYA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHqPLVw-XQAhUM_mMKHR2ACEAQ6AEIJzAC#v=onepage&q=liddell&f=false

Suggests he was indeed a candidate in 1661, I don't know if they're correct or not.


If that is the George who served in the Navy then he was a M. P. candidate and then jumped into the Navy? I need to see if I can find any dates for when he started service in 1661. It seems his first ship might have been Assurance, which of course makes web searching fun lol.

[Matthew Langley]

So following a completely different thread. Unfortunately St. Sepulchre records were lost in a fire so most records don't survive before about 1662. I was looking at Lyddall marriages there afterwards though, just to see of any other Lyddalls that might be running around the same area as Sir Robert Peake (the only real lead).

In an abbreviated list for St. Sepuclhre I saw John Lydall m. Elizabeth Blackhall on Feb 5 1689. Looking for a more complete record I see:

https://books.google.com/books?id=oLi9F0_km1AC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=john+lydall+OR+lyddall+OR+liddell+elizabeth+blackhall&source=bl&ots=uOsZm7zJqG&sig=_9HJc6aXic-KGG1CLZ8dmm2UsQI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQmPGD4_DQAhVqw1QKHc5bCUgQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=john%20lydall%20OR%20lyddall%20OR%20liddell%20elizabeth%20blackhall&f=false

"
Feb. 5 John Lydall, of Uxmore, co. Oxon, Gent., Bachr, ab' 24, & MTM Elizabeth Blackhall, of Checkenden in sd co., Spr, above 21, with consent of her father W" Blackhall, Gent.; at S' Mary Magd., Old Fish Street, Lond.
"

Looking for Lyddalls in Uxmore, co Oxon... I see a few trees list a Thomas Lyddall m. Elizabeth Venables in Uxmore, Oxfordshire.

Interestingly some of those trees say he was the father of George Lyddall of Virginia. No proof (of course lol)... though it's enough to intrigue me to dig further.

Here's a visitation showing the Thomas Lydall m. Elizabeth Venables

https://archive.org/stream/PedigreesFromTheVisitationOfHampshireMadeByThomasBenolt/PedigreesFromTheVisitstionOfHampshire_v64_286pgs#page/n201/mode/2up/search/venables

A couple notes that are interesting. It says "Thom. Lydall of London marchant"

1) The similarity of name spelling to George Lyddall caught my eye
2) Thomas Lydall of London, which is really the only tie I have for George Lyddall, that he's tied to Sir Robert Peake of London

No actual connection found yet, but thought it interesting... Definitely going to dig a bit further and see if there's any further connection.

I did notice that a sister of Elizabeth Venables, a Dorothy married a "George West of Basingstoke". I know John West (son of Thomas West 2nd Baron de la Warre) transported George Lyddall over and George the same year bought land bordering his (and they lived as neighbors for multiple generations).

Looking of George West of Basingstoke to see if there's any relation I find something interesting.

http://www.northcravenheritage.org.uk/NCHT/RoyPriceArchive/COURTCASES/EnglishCourtCasespdfs/696westvcrutchman.pdf

Richard West of Pontefract, co. York, gent v George Crutchman, alias West, of
Basingstoke, co. Hampshire
April – June 1635

"
Abstract
West claimed that he was the great grandson of Thomas West, Lord De La Ware and,
in a case which ran in tandem with Lady De La Ware’s action against Crutchman [see
cause 156], complained that in May or June 1634, in the City of London, Crutchman
had declared him to be an imposter. Therefore, in June 1635, he requested the court to
grant him restitution of his honour and reputation. No further proceedings survive in
this case, but in September 1639, his descent was affirmed in the submission ordered
to be made by Thomas Green of Pontefract [see cause 697].
"


It says "his descent was affirmed", though I can't find the descent.

Now obviously not the strongest basis for a connection, though maybe not all the Wests disputed this potential cousin of theirs, might explain the proximity of George Lyddall to John West.

[WJH]

Further to this I took a look on www.durhamrecordsonline.com which has trasncribed millions of parish records for Durham and bits of Northumberland.

in 1615 I found:

Baptisms, Chester-le-Street District
Record Number: 1246043.0
Location: Lamesley
Church: St. Andrew
Denomination: Anglican
26 Sep 1615 George Liddell of Ravensworthe Castle, son of Mr. Thomas Liddell

which looks good and fits with the pedigree.

Then in 1634 I found:

Baptisms, Chester-le-Street District
Record Number: 1246610.0
Location: Lamesley
Church: St. Andrew
Denomination: Anglican
30 Sep 1634 Georgius Lyddell, son of Francisci Lyddell (gentleman)

which suggests that the pedigree is wrong...

and then in 1635:

Baptisms, Chester-le-Street District
Record Number: 1246631.0
Location: Lamesley
Church: St. Andrew
Denomination: Anglican
7 Jun 1635 Georgius Lyddell, son of Edwardi Lyddell

who doesn't figure in the pedigree or get called a gentleman

and then in 1639

Baptisms, Chester-le-Street District
Record Number: 1246743.0
Location: Lamesley
Church: St. Andrew
Denomination: Anglican
25 Mar 1639 Georgius Lyddell, son of Georgii Lyddell

who isn't in the pedigree either.

and finally

Baptisms, Chester-le-Street District - Record Number: 1247120.0
Location: Lamesley
Church: St. Andrew
Denomination: Anglican
21 May 1655 George Liddell of Ravensworth Castle, born 21 May 1655, son of Sr. Thomas Liddell

who is on the pedigree

On this evidence, it would appear that the pedigree has mixed up two GLs born to brothers withing 4 years of each other and christened in the same chapelry that contained Ravensworth castle. On top of which there is a third GL who may be from a cadet branch of the family born between them. This completely ignores the possibility of the GL I posited in my first post or another from any other cadet branch e.g. of Farnacres which is the next parish to Ravensworth, Whickham. There are no Georges in the pedigree for Liddell of Farnacres

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/antiquities-durham/vol2/pp237-258#h3-0010

but no fewer than five GLs were baptised there between 1631 and 1643.

So, my conclusion is that GL of Va could easily claim membership of the Ravensworth Liddells, without being one of the two mentioned in the pedigree, one of whom we've just established is actually two people anyway...

Or am I over-interpreting the data?

[taf]

On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 10:36:08 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:
> On Sunday, December 11, 2016 at 3:22:18 PM UTC-8, John Higgins wrote:
>
> > If George (b. 1615) was the one mentioned in the navy account, he would have
> > been 45 in 1661 when he is said to be a lieutenant. I may well be wrong, but
> > that seems pretty old to be a lieutenant.
>
> Things get a bit tricky. Originally, Master and Commander (later shortened to
> simply Commander and formalized as a rank), was the description given a
> Lieutenant who was given command of a frigate,

I misunderstood the situation. He wasn't 'still' a lieutenant in 1661. He was just made lieutenant in 1661. That would be quite unusual for a 45 year old. Midshipmen or equivalent, even as Master's mates and the like, were in inherently precarious positions. They served at the Captain's pleasure, and unlike lieutenants received no half-pay when without a post. Mids would have begun their careers as 12-16-year olds, (and in some cases, much younger through false musters), so this would have meant more than 30 years living hand-to-mouth. Still, maybe he had latched onto a more senior officer who ensured him a posting but didn't have the juice to get him his step until the right alignment of the stars (battles and sickness) left him as the only candidate in the immediate vicinity for an opening that needed filled.

This site dates his earliest naval service to 1631, which would indeed seem consistent with the long timeline, but none of the cited references contain that information so there is no telling if it is accurate:

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_crewman&id=9601

taf

[taf]

On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 11:39:41 PM UTC-8, Matthew Langley wrote:

> Obviously he could be older as well. I'm guessing the "26" on the marriage
> record was transcribed incorrectly.

It was not. It may have been recorded wrong (and who knows how much imprecision is represented by the 'about' 26), but the age was transcribed correctly. What was incorrect was the date, which must have been misrecorded in my source. It was 29 June 1666 that the licence was sworn. I was hoping that, as with the later records, it might have preserved the name of the bride's father giving permission, but this was not the case, he remains unnamed. They were to wed at St. James Clerkenwell, but the marriage is not recorded there.

taf

[John Higgins]

I didn't read the source that Matthew cited (one of the sources by threedecks.org) as saying that George Liddell BECAME a lieutenant in 1661, but rather that he WAS a lieutenant in that year - with no indication of when he became a lieutenant. I also wonder if the later references to him as a "captain" were perhaps the courtesy title that you mention being accorded to lieutenants as "master and commander". The ships that he commanded may suggest this - a 6-gun fireship followed by a 16-gun sixth-rate ship.

The suggestion that his service started in 1631 is confusing - although, as you say, that can't be confirmed to be accurate.

At any rate, there are now enough George Liddells popping up in this thread and in this time frame that it's hard to identify exactly WHO the navy man was. But he certainly doesn't seem to be the George Lyddall of Virginia.

[Matt Tompkins]

One has to be a bit careful here. The relatively regular career structures of the Georgian Navy did not exist in the early Restoration Navy. Its immediate predecessor, the navy of the Commonwealth, had hardly had a rank structure at all - men were appointed to be the lieutenant and captain of a ship, but neither was a permanent rank, and a man who served as captain in one voyage might be a lieutenant on the next. Further, the Navy had undergone several massive upheavals of personnel and organisation during the immediately preceding two decades. First during the Civil War, then in 1649-50, when the Rump Parliament purged the officer corps and replaced it with new, politically and religiously more reliable men drawn largely from the merchant navy, and again in 1660, when the newly-restored royal government replaced many of the more fanatical republican officers with loyalist gentlemen.

Matt Tompkins

[taf]

On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 11:39:46 AM UTC-8, John Higgins wrote:

> I didn't read the source that Matthew cited (one of the sources by
> threedecks.org) as saying that George Liddell BECAME a lieutenant in 1661, but
> rather that he WAS a lieutenant in that year - with no indication of when he
> became a lieutenant.

Commissioned Sea Officers dates his lieutenancy to 1661. That is almost always the date of his commission, although he may have been 'acting lieutenant' a few months earlier.

> I also wonder if the later references to him as a "captain" were perhaps the
> courtesy title that you mention being accorded to lieutenants as "master and
> commander".

That is exactly the case - he never made post, still being a commander (called Captain only by courtesy) at his death. This is a case of linguistic conflict - in general terms, the person in charge of a ship is its captain, independent of rank, so a person could theoretically be a midshipman and a captain at the same time. This if you see 'Captain X' it means the person had the role of captain. If you see X, Captain of HMS Ship, that refers to his formal rank. Our man would have been addressed as Captain George Liddell, or George Liddell, Commander of HMS Roebuck. Three Decks is being sloppy in calling him Captain from 1665 - he was made Master and Commander in that year. Browsing around I just found a man given active dates of 1726/12/01 to 1826/12/01, while his sole specific entry is being appointed lieutenant 1756/12/01. Given that he was born in 1738 and died in 1805, I am thinking the active dates, and the identical month/day entries, are made up, so who knows if the 1631 date has any basis.

> At any rate, there are now enough George Liddells popping up in this thread and
> in this time frame that it's hard to identify exactly WHO the navy man was. But
> he certainly doesn't seem to be the George Lyddall of Virginia.

The Biographia Navalis cited by Three Decks is explicit in his identification as 5th son of Thomas of Ravensworth. However, it was written 120 years after his death.

taf

[Matthew Langley]

1654, May 27
George Lyddall , Head right, May 27, 1654 . (3, p. 10.)

Headright of John West

1654, Nov 25
George Lyddall , Patent, 1750 acres in York Co. , south side of York River , adjoining Capt. John West 's land called Chomoeken, running by Black Creek , formerly granted to Mr. Joseph Croshaw , Nov. 10, 1653 , and by him assigned to the said Geo. Lyddall . Nov. 25, 1654 . (3, p. 301.

1657, Dec 27
Cavaliers and Pioneers, Patent Book 4, Page 359
Capt. George Lyddall, 2390 acres, New Kent Co., VA, Dec 27, 1657, p. 146 (214). 1750 acres behind land of Capt. John West called Chamockin, running to Croshawes extent; 640 acres on S. side of Blacke Cr., behind land of Mr. Brookes. Renewal of patent for 1750 acres granted him Nov 25, 1654, and 640 acres for trans. of 13 pers: William Hill, Robert Harman, Francis Smith, Thomas Smith, John Makepeace, Thomas Masque, Charles Havannest, Penelope Best, Michaell Tacker, Roger Parker, Daniell Welch, John Davis, Thomas Jones. 


1662, Oct 12
CAPT. GEORGE LYDDALL, 3306 acs. New Kent Co., 12 Oct. 1662, p. 324, (444). On both sides of Black Cr., running by land of Anthony Arnold &c. to Wanieoake (or Warrieoake) Sw, &c. over Maddicon path to the mountains & along Col. Jno. West back line. 2900 acs. granted to sd. Lyddall 27 Sept. 1657, 1750 acs. of which was granted to Joseph Cro- shall 8 Nov. 1653 & purchased of sd. Croshaw & patented in name of sd. Lyddall 25 Nov. 1654; 640 acs. by patent dated 27 Dec. 1657 & 916 acs. newly taken up & due for trans. of 19 pers: Charles Greene, Jno. Kippin, Wm. Sanders, Edward Frost, Will Jones, Thomas Core, Francis Jeffs (?), Edward Cooper, Francis Parker, Isaak Ball, Thomas Leonard, Wm. Addison, Wm. Leech, Alice Goodale, An Church, Charles Farthing, Richard White, Abram Iveson, Isaak Brumly.

1666, May 15
Mentioned in will of Sir Robert Peake of London as cousin, gent, and sometime servant

1668, April 10
George Lyddall named in Capt. Fleets appraisement of estate as a debtor &c. April 10, 1668 . D. O. W. Bk. 4, p. 174.

1672, Feb 29
An Appraisement of Estate of Jonathan Newell , decd. among names mentioned, Acct. with Capt. Lyddall ordered to settled. Feb. 29, 1671/2 . Bk. 6, p. 148.

1676
In 1676 he was appointed (with Major George Lyddall) to command the fort at Indiantown in New Kent

1678, Mar 28
Major George Lyddall commanded the fort at or near Mohixon, on Pamunkie River (New Kent Co.), in charge of 61 men from York Co., 28 Mar. 1678. (Hening, Statutes at Large – Vol. 2, p. 328.)

1679, Oct 8
An appraisement of estate of Mr. Jonathon Newell , decd. (among other items.) Acct. with Captain Lyddall to be settled. Oct. 8, 1679 . Bk. 6, pp. 139, 144, 145, & 143.

1680, Jun 8
Att a general Assembly begune at James City June 8, 1680 . York County Dr. To Sallary (among others). To Coll Bacon , assnee by Coll. Lyddall 12 000, Bk. 6

1682, May 12
Marriage agreement between Ann Lyddall, daughter of George Lyddall, and Edmund Bacon where George Lyddall makes over 1700 acres to Bacon

1686, Apr 7
George Lyddell , Head right. Apr. 7, 1686 . (7, p. 501.)

? Is this the same George or a new one? If so did he leave and come back in 1686, can someone be claimed as a headright more than once?

1690, Apr 21
Vol II P 342-Nugent Apr 21, 1690- Mr. John Lyddall rec'd a patent of 2248 acs, New Kent Co, (1600 ac of which was grtd to Capt Geo. Lyddall,, deserted and grtd to Mr. John Langston, 11 March, 1672-3, but never patented, and deserted).

1703, Nov 15
Made will

In the name of God Amen: I, George Lyddall of ye Parish of St. Peter's in ye County of New Kent in Virga, Gent: doe & imprimis,

I give and bequeath unto my well beloved son in law Capt. Joseph Harwood and his wife, my father and mother's pictures in Little, they have in their possession

Item I give and bequeath unto my grandson George Wilkinson my mare Penny, ye first mare foul she brings maybe and remain to his sister Judith Wilkinson.

Item, I give and bequeath unto my grandson Thomas Harwood, son of Capt. Joseph Harwood my Black Rapier.

Item I give and bequeath unto my deare and loving wife Jane Lyddall my two negroes by name Harry & Hannah & all their future increase and I hereby ordain and appoint my Beloved wife Jane Lyddall Full and & sole Executrix of this my last will and testament giving & bequeathing unto her all my whole Estate that Remains after ye payment of ye above Legacies. I say all my Estate that remaineth both Real & Personal whether here or in England, and in Witness whereof I have here (Revoking all other wills) sett my hand & Seale this fifteenth day of November 1703.

1705, Jan 10
Death in New Kent County, Virginia, USA

1705, Jan 28
Will proved January 28th 1705 by ye oaths of Thomas Henrson and James Melons. Witnesses Thos. Henderson, Sarah Henderson, James Melons and Stephen Sunter.

[Matthew Langley]

Forgot to explain, that's my current rough timeline of notes of George Lyddall in VA

[taf]

On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 11:13:06 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:

> On Sunday, December 11, 2016 at 2:58:36 PM UTC-8, Matthew Langley wrote:
>
> > Very fascinating, thanks. Sounds like a real winner lol.
>
> Hard to say. There has always been friction between the more Puritanical/hierarchical officers and the more hedonistic/independent ones. The latter made the best frigate commanders, much to the chagrin of the former.
>
> > I'm not familiar with this format of will, is the second part a record of the
> > will being probated? Confirming this George Liddell is in fact dead by 1672?
>
> Yes.
>
>
> > Even if the daughter was his (and not Rachel's) that still is hard to fit with
> > the age on the transcribed marriage record... If he was 26 in 1666 then he'd
> > only be 32 in 1772. I'm not sure the age required to be an executor but that
> > doesn't seem to fit either way.
>
> It is worse than that - he never would have named her executor if she wasn't old enough.

I have been contacted off-list with two points:

1) I had just picked out the naming phrase from the probate as I was looking at the issue of whether or not she was his daughter. Had I read more I would have found the role of the daughter more ambiguous

2) I had never seen this to occur, but he tells me further than there were circumstances in which an underage person may have been named co-administrator, hedging bets for the future.

With this in mind, I still think it is an odd situation. Rachel, the bride, was definitely underage in 1666, even in her approximate age was wrong. That means any daughter of hers could not have been more than 8 at the time of the will, and if born by George, then we are talking 5 or younger.

[Matthew Langley]

Fascinating. Maybe since he was out at sea he felt the need to hedge his bets? Either that or maybe the complete opposite, he knew he was going to die soon and knew his wife would still be living so it didn't really matter?

[Matthew Langley]

Circling back to a link I posted earlier

https://books.google.com/books?id=sikXAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA378&lpg=PA378&dq=%22of+the+death+of+Capt.+Liddell%22&source=bl&ots=xRTKQmkhxg&sig=uR3alFQLtv1fChQTX7vBleVr1g8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiW6aztnO7QAhVL0WMKHYBcCtkQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=%22of%20the%20death%20of%20Capt.%20Liddell%22&f=false

I'm not sure but it seems like George's death in Lisbon might have been fairly sudden? They didn't seem to have planned for it regarding orders etc.

[taf]

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 12:13:53 AM UTC-8, Matthew Langley wrote:

> I'm not sure but it seems like George's death in Lisbon might have been fairly
> sudden? They didn't seem to have planned for it regarding orders etc.

I have to say, I see nothing but business as usual in that awaiting-orders, need-supplies message, even for the much better organized navies of the Napoleonic era, not a consequence of Liddell's death.

That being said, there were a whole lot of ways for a person to die in the Navy, and many of them sudden.

taf

[leslie...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, June 11, 2016 at 5:02:46 AM UTC-7, Matthew Langley wrote:
> On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 6:34:48 PM UTC-7, Matthew Langley wrote:
> > Anyone have information on a George Liddell (Lyddall) of Virginia, who had a daughter Anne who married an Edmund Bacon.
> >
> > Most tree seem to connect him to Sir Thomas Liddell who married Isabel Anderson, either as a son (some sources seem to mention he had a son George, or as a son of that George)... though having a hard time finding a concrete tree. If anyone has any information would greatly appreciate it.
> >
> > One of the primary reasons to connect him seems to be the will of Sir Robert Peake whose will that was created 1666 mentions:
> >
> > "To my cousin and sometime servant, George Lyddall, in Virginia, gentleman, three hundred pounds in three years"
> >
> > https://books.google.com/books?id=CaNCAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA11&ots=y_1d26zGoz&dq=robert%20peake%20%22sometime%20servant%22&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q=robert%20peake%20%22sometime%20servant%22&f=false
> >
> > I'm having a hard time confirming his relation. It seems Robert Peake might have been married to a Martha Woodward, who had a sister Bridget Woodward married to a Thomas Liddell son of the mentioned Sir Thomas Liddell m Isabel.
> >
> > If the initial correlation is correct would he call him "cousin" if his wife had a sister who was married to a cousin of George?
> >
> > It seems Robert Peaks father was William Peake married to an Ann Acton son of Robert Peake (a painter) m. Elizabeth Beckwith.
>
> Just wanted to follow up on this, if anyone has any additional info



I've located a good lead for the ancestry of George Liddell of Virginia.

The records for the Goldsmiths Company of London are available online
here:

http://www.londonroll.org/


Robert Peake was admitted to the company by patrimony in 1629,
as the son of William Peake.

William Peake took an apprentice in 1608:

John Ledall, son of "Gorge" Ledall of Coningsby, Lincolnshire, yeoman.


The next step is to search in the Lincolnshire wills for testators
named Ledall and Peake, to see if you can prove the connection.


https://archive.org/details/calendarsoflinco28linc

https://archive.org/details/calendarsoflinco4142linc


Leslie

[Matthew Langley]

Excellent find, thanks.

It looks like by 1627 John Ledall was a master goldsmith taking his own apprentice. A Thomas Brooker son of Thomas Booker.

[Matthew Langley]

Figured I'd look and found a will for a John Ledall of St. Sepulchre London 1 May 1660

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B98R41KyPFdyckVudnRxWl9mXzA/view?usp=sharing

Seems like he mentions a wife Martha and children:
- Thomas Ledall
- Sarah Wooten
- Faith Wooten


mentions Wooten grandchildren... maybe a grandchild "Ahio Lidall" though not sure on that

A lot of it I can't make out. Not sure if he's the same John Ledall of course. What was interesting was looking at this will collection on Ancestry (where I found the will of Sir Robert Peake) I entered Lincolnshire, England and this is the only will that showed up with "Ledall" as the surname.

Not sure why it only showed me a will from "St Sepulchre, Middlesex, England" when searching for Lincolnshire England, I don't think I see a reference to Lincoln in the will but haven't made out a lot of it yet.

[Matthew Langley]

Birth and Christening

Name: Elizabeth Ledall
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 12 Jan 1624
Baptism Place: Coningsby,Lincoln,England
Father: Georg Ledall

[Matthew Langley]

Name: George Ledall
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 29 Jul 1621
Baptism Place: Coningsby,Lincoln,England
Father: George Ledall

[Matthew Langley]

Inventory - Leadall, George (1610-1611)


Name: Leadall, George

Profession: Gentleman

Place: Coningsby, Lincolnshire

Date: 1610-1611

Repository: Lincolnshire Archives [057]


http://www.lincstothepast.com/Inventory---Leadall--George--1610-1611--------/1009284.record?pt=S

[D. Spencer Hines]

"You note that the book on the Harris family that you cite "makes a lot of
connections without proof". Attaching Jane Strangways, whoever she may have
been, to the family of Melbury Sampford is one of these unsupported
connections. And I think the efforts of various VA genealogists to link
George Lyddall of VA to the family of Liddell of Ravensworth is likely
another case of "the name's the same" - at least so far."

John Higgins
-----------------------------

I think you are striking gold here.

DSH

"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro (Virgil)
[70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his men as they
contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them that, "Someday,
perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."

[Nathan Murphy]

> Robert Peake was admitted to the company by patrimony in 1629,
> as the son of William Peake.
>
> William Peake took an apprentice in 1608:
>
> John Ledall, son of "Gorge" Ledall of Coningsby, Lincolnshire, yeoman.

George Leedall of St. Martin's in the Fields, chandler, bondsman in 1602 for George Skelton of Coningsby

With some discussion of the Leedalls of Coningsby.

NEHGR 52:356
https://books.google.com/books?id=MMgMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA356