House of Orange
David Hughes
Part 1: ancestry
01. Sigonius, Prefect of France
02. Bera I, Count of Razes, bro of Annemundus, Bishop of Lyons (d658),
& Taxi, a count
03. Bera II, Count of Razes
04. Gisela, heiress
= Dagobert II, King of France 676-679 [his 2nd =]
05. Sigebert I, Count of Razes, claimant to French throne 751 & styled
self "Sigebert IV, King of France" (d758)
= Magdalene of Narbonne & Carcassone
06. Sigebert II, Count of Razes (d768)
07. Bera III, Count of Razes (d770)
= Alba
08. Cunegonde, heiress, sis of William, Count of Razes (d795)
= William "Le Cornet" [aka Guillem de Gellone], Marquis of Septimania
793-806, abd, d813 [his 1st =]
09. Bera IV, Count of Razes 795-823
= Romille
10. Argila, Count of Razes 823-836
= Reverge
11. Bera V, Count of Razes 836-860
= Duodeme
12. Hilderic, Count of Razes 860-867, bro of Acfred, Count 867, &
Bernard, Count 867-877
13. Sigebert III [aka "Prince Ursus"], Count of Razes, expelled 881
(d884), bro of Effroi [Acfred]
= Rotilde, dau of Charles II "The Bald", King of France
14. William, dispossessed heir, styled self "William II, Count of
Razes" (d914)
= Idoine
15. William (d936)
= [name], an English princess
16. Arnaud (d952)
17. Bera "The Architect" (d975/980)
18. Sigebert (d978/982), bro of Arnaud & Bernard
19. Hugh des Plantard (d971)
= Anne of Byzantium
20. Gerald "Ademar", 1st Prince of Orange (1000), bro of Hugh des
Plantard (d1015) [who, by wife, Agnes de Jumieges [who =2ndly Ernicule
II of Boulogne], was the father of Eustace I, Count of Boulogne] &
John des Plantard (d1020) [from whom Pierre Plantard de Saint-Clair,
who revived the "Order of Zion" as the "Prior of Zion" in 1956, claims
descent]
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Part 2A: House of Orange
01. Gerald "Ademar", 1st Prince of Orange, circa 1000 (above)
02. Raimbaud I, [2nd] Prince of Orange
03. Bertrand I, [3rd] Prince of Orange
04. Raimbaud II, [4th] Prince of Orange, d1121 [male-line ends with
him]
05. Tiburge I, (dau) [5th] Countess (d1150)
= William I de Ometas, [6th] Prince of Orange (d1156), son of
Guillaume V, Seigneur of Montpellier
06. Tiburge III, [12th] Countess (d1182), sis of William II, [7th]
Prince of Orange (d1160) & [8th] Raimbaud III, Prince [note: William
II, [7th] Prince, was the father of William III, [9th] Prince (d1175),
& Tiburge II, [10th] Countess][note: William III, [9th] Prince, was
the father of Raimbauld IV, [11th] Prince]
= Bertrand II of Baux, [13th] Prince of Orange, son of Raymond I,
Count of Baux (d1181)
07. William IV, [14th] Prince of Orange (d1218), bro of Hugues de Baux
(d1240), & Bertrand I, Sire of Berri (d1201)
08. William V, [15th] Prince of Orange (d1239), bro of Raymond I,
[16th] Prince of Orange (d1282), see Part 2B below
= Precieuse
09. Raymond II, [18th] Prince of Orange (d1271/9), bro of [17th]
William VI, Prince of Orange (d1248/57)
= Laure
10. Bertrand III, [19th] Prince of Orange (d1300/05)
= Berengaria of Andria
11. Bertrand, Count of Andria (d1347/55), Senator of Rome
= Margaret d'Alneto
12. Francis, Duke of Andria (d1422)
=1 Margaret of Anjou, heiress of Achaia; =2 Justine de Ursins; =3
Louise de Saligny, heiress
issue by 1:
a. Jacques, Prince of Achaia (d1383)
issue by 2:
b. Margaret (d1469), wife of Pierre de Luxembourg, Count of St. Pol
(d1433), the parents of Jacqueline (d1472), wife of Richard Wydeville,
Earl Rivers (d1469), the parents of Elizabeth, wife of Edward IV, King
of England
issue by 3:
c. Catherine (d1449), below
13. Catherine (d1449)
= William, Count of Coligny (d1464)
14. John de Coligny (d1480)
= Eleanor of Courcelles (d1510)
15. Gaspar[d] de Coligny, [28th-B] Prince of Orange 1522-1526
= Louise of Montmorency
16. Gaspar[d] [II] de Coligny (d1572)
= Charlotte of Montfort-Laval (d1568)
17. Louise (d1620)
= William VIII "The Silent" of Nassau, [30th] Prince of Orange
1544-1584, became William I, Stadholder of Holland [Netherlands]
1579-1584 [his 4th =]
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Part 2B: House of Orange (continued)
08. Raymond I, [16th] Prince of Orange (d1282), bro of William V,
[15th] Prince of Orange (d1239), see above
= Malberjone of Aix
09. Bertrand IV, [20th] Prince of Orange (d1314/35)
= Eleanore de Genevie
10. Raymond III, [21st] Prince of Orange (d1340)
= Anne de Viennois
11. Raymond IV, [22nd] Prince of Orange (d1393)
= Jeanne de Genevie
12. Marie, [23rd] Countess of Orange (d1417)
= John I de Chalons, [24th] Prince of Orange (d1418)
13. Louis, [25th] Prince of Orange (d1463), bro of Alice [wife of
William de Vienne (d1456), the parents of Margaret, wife of Rudolf V
of Baden-Hachberg (d1487), the parents of Philip, [27th-B] Prince of
Orange 1478-1482 (d1503), the father of Jeanne (d1543), wife of Louis,
Count of Longueville (d1516)]
14. William VII, [26th] Prince of Orange (d1475)
15. John II, [27th-A] Prince of Orange 1475-1477 & 1482-1502
16. Philibert, [28th-A] Prince of Orange 1502-1522 & 1526-1530, bro of
Claudia (d1521), wife of Henry III of Nassau (d1538), the parents of
Rene [Renatus], [29th] Prince of Orange (d1544)
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Part 3: Orange-Nassau
17. Louise (d1620), see part 2A above
= William VIII "The Silent" of Nassau, [30th] Prince of Orange
1544-1584, became William I, Stadholder of Holland [Netherlands]
1579-1584 [his 4th =]
18. Frederick Henry, Stadholder of Holland & Prince of Orange
1625-1647
= Amalia of Solms-Braunfels (d1675)
19. William II [IX-Orange], Stadholder/Prince 1647-1650, bro of
Albertina Agnes (d1696) [wife of William Frederick of Nassau-Dietz
(d1664), the parents of Henry Casimir (d1696), who, of his wife,
Henriette of Anhalt-Dessau, begot John William Frisco (d1711), who, of
his wife, Marie-Louise of Hesse-Cassel, begot William IV [XI-Orange],
Stadholder/Prince 1748-1751, who of his wife, Anne of Britain, begot
William V [XII-Orange], Stadholder/Prince 1766-1795]
= Mary of Britain
20. William III [X], Stadholder of Holland 1672; Prince of Orange
1650; King of Britain 1689-1702
= Mary II, Queen of Britain 1689-1694
Todd A. Farmerie
Basically, everything prior to Gerald is an elaborate forgery - a
mixture of invented relationships for historical individuals and
invented individuals. (For example, in spite of all of the efforts to
make him either a jewish exilarch or, as in this case, the male-line
heir of Clovis, there is little reason not to accept the established
parentage of this man, which leads elsewhere. Perhaps you can explain
why William's sister was heiress, when he had sons and brothers?)
taf
jl
Gontard ?
|
Lambert DE VALENTINOIS
|
Adhémar DE VALENCE
|
Hugues DE VALENCE ca 1045-
|
Giraud D'ADHEMAR
|
Guillaume D'ORANGE
|
Thiburge D'ORANGE
JL
Nathaniel Taylor
And at any rate, generations 4-19 are pretty much direct from that
classic, _Holy Blood, Holy Grail_.
Nat Taylor
Dominic O'Kelly
doubt when so-called Plantard pedigree comes into the picture. Most of
the counts of Razes, as they are called can be identified as living
individuals from monuments or writings. I noticed you changed the
Plantard given pedigree, having William of Gellone marrying an heiress
as opposed to giving them a direct Merovingian lineage, Plantard
wouldn't be happy. The dates given for these historical figures are
questionable at least, probably ole Plantard as a source. Connecting
these historical individuals to the Merovingians is the problem, then
connecting them to Plantard.
Count Dominic O'Kelly
RDAVID...@AOL.com (David Hughes) wrote in message news:<f9785a84.0404...@posting.google.com>...
Chris Phillips
Dominic O'Kelly wrote:
> Most of these early individuals are quite historical, but I run into
> doubt when so-called Plantard pedigree comes into the picture.
As has been discussed here in the past, large sections of this pedigree are
known to have been concocted in the 20th century as part of the notorious
Rennes-le-chateau hoax. This includes Dagobert II's alleged wife Gisela of
Razes. The authors of "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" are quite open
about their reliance on modern documents deposited in the Bibliotheque
nationale under pseudonyms, and about the lack of support from any other
sources.
Even Dagobert II's alleged son Sigebert is unsupported by anything like
contemporary evidence, and is not mentioned until the 10th century.
Settipani argues that the tradition of his existence arose out of confusion
with Sigebert, son of Dagobert I.
Chris Phillips
Nathaniel Taylor
domo...@rock.com (Dominic O'Kelly) wrote:
> RDAVID...@AOL.com (David Hughes) wrote in message
> news:<f9785a84.0404...@posting.google.com>...
>
...
> > = Dagobert II, King of France 676-679 [his 2nd =]
> > 05. Sigebert I, Count of Razes, claimant to French throne 751 & styled
> > self "Sigebert IV, King of France" (d758)
> > = Magdalene of Narbonne & Carcassone
> > 06. Sigebert II, Count of Razes (d768)
> > 07. Bera III, Count of Razes (d770)
> > = Alba
> > 08. Cunegonde, heiress, sis of William, Count of Razes (d795)
> > = William "Le Cornet" [aka Guillem de Gellone], Marquis of Septimania
> > 793-806, abd, d813 [his 1st =]
> > 09. Bera IV, Count of Razes 795-823
> > = Romille
...
> ... I noticed you changed the
> Plantard given pedigree, having William of Gellone marrying an heiress
> as opposed to giving them a direct Merovingian lineage, Plantard
> wouldn't be happy. ...
The hoaxster Plantard? Isn't he dead, though?
Nat Taylor
Peter Stewart
<snip>
>
>>... I noticed you changed the
>>Plantard given pedigree, having William of Gellone marrying an heiress
>>as opposed to giving them a direct Merovingian lineage, Plantard
>>wouldn't be happy. ...
>
>
> The hoaxster Plantard? Isn't he dead, though?
But in the vulgar, make-believe world of people who sign their names
with a title, surely a con-man can be a trifle peeved and dead at the
same time.
Peter Stewart
WJho...@aol.com
> Connecting
> these historical individuals to the Merovingians is the
> problem, then
> connecting them to Plantard.
There are several places in the genealogies of Holy Blood Holy Grail that are highly suspect. Esp. as their is apparently no reason why these people should not be documented elsewhere. I have documented a few persons where I could, but quite a number of them I can't find any reference on outside of the book itself which alledgedly relies on secret documents.
Will
WJho...@aol.com
> As has been discussed here in the past, large sections of this pedigree are
known to have been concocted in the 20th century as part of the notorious
Rennes-le-chateau hoax. This includes Dagobert II's alleged wife Gisela of
> Razes.
Can I add here Dagobert II himself?
In reviewing the history of this person, I have some reservations on his lineage.
What primary documentation is there that Dagobert II was really who he is claimed to be? He was spirited away at a very young age [or killed] and then much much later his mother would recognize him? It's a little too Anastasia for me to swallow.
Will
Dominic O'Kelly
Yes, he has passed. He has a son who is still alive, but I'm unaware
of whether or not he is making the same pretensions.
Count Dominic O'Kelly
Dominic O'Kelly
This balderdash is unwarranted and unwanted. This kind of nonsense
only has a paralytic effect on the newsgroup and distracts people from
the subject at hand. If you desire to ask me a question about how I
sign my name then by all means ask, but petty remarks are
inappropriate and uncalled for.
Count Dominic O'Kelly
Peter Stewart
There's nothing I need to ask - whether or not you may be a count is
immaterial. Unless "Count" is your legal first name or a recognised
nickname, as with the famous jazz artist Basie, then it is a vulgar
affectation to use this as part of you signature. Any count should know
that.
Peter Stewart