Dammartin
Stewart, Peter
on the Dammartin family in England.
The lineage was reconstructed by JN Mathieu in *Recherches sur les premiers
comtes de Dammartin*, _Mémoires publiés par la Fédération des sociétés
historiques et archéologiques de Paris et de l'Ile-de-France_, 47 (1996),
which I haven't seen but understand from correspondence as follows:
1 Alberic II, count of Dammartin-en-Goële, died 20 September 1200
2 Alberic I le Chambrier, count of Dammartin, lord of Norton, died
1181/2
3 NN (his first wife), living 1147
4 Eudes de Dammartin, of Norton & Mendlesham, Suffolk, died 1130
5 Basilie N
8 Hugues I de Montdidier, count of Dammartin, died ca 1100
9 Rohais de Clare, died 1121
16 Manassès de Montdidier, count of Dammartin, killed 15 Dec 1037
17 Constance (of France)
18 Richard fitz Gilbert, lord of Clare, died May 1089
19 Rohais Giffard, died after 1133
#2 Alberic I was married perhaps twice and possibly three times. His first
wife was most likely the mother of both sons attributed to him, #1 Alberic
II and another named Eudes, lord of Buckden & Beachamstead. The younger son
was recorded in 1155, so both were almost certainly born well before 1147
when the first wife was apparently still alive. Their mother's name has been
given as Mathilde in some sources (I'm not sure of the source for this) and
as Clemencie in others for reasons I don't understand (#1 Alberic II's wife
Mathilde de Clermont was the daughter of a lady of this name). Alberic I's
second wife was probably Joan Basset, already twice widowed ca 1160 when
they married, daughter of Gilbert Basset & Edith d'Oilly; he may also have
married thirdly Amicia (Uta), who died as a nun, widow of Robert 'le Bossu'
de Beaumont, earl of Leicester, daughter of Ralph de Gael, earl of Norfolk &
his wife Emma, but this is not attested in contemporary records as far as I
know.
#4 above is said to be a brother of Adele, dame of Bulles, formerly thought
to be the mother of #2 by her first husband Aubri de Mello. According to
this theory, if I've got it right, #2 Alberic I, whose career was mainly at
the French court, is identical with Alberic, lord of Norton in Suffolk, and
the descent of Dammartin is now traced through the male line of Montdidier
instead of Mello.
#9 was formerly called Rohais de Bulles and the Clare connection was new in
Mathieu, I think.
#17 is thought to have been the second daughter of Robert II the Pious, king
of the Franks by his third wife Constance de Provence, but this is not
certain.
Can someone check what Keats-Rohan says about #4 and his sons, and/or
correct what I am reporting from Mathieu?
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
> #2 Alberic I was married perhaps twice and possibly three times. His first
> wife was most likely the mother of both sons attributed to him, #1 Alberic
> II and another named Eudes, lord of Buckden & Beachamstead. The younger son
> was recorded in 1155, so both were almost certainly born well before 1147
> when the first wife was apparently still alive. Their mother's name has been
> given as Mathilde in some sources (I'm not sure of the source for this) and
> as Clemencie in others for reasons I don't understand (#1 Alberic II's wife
> Mathilde de Clermont was the daughter of a lady of this name).
Same lady. Getting the relationships and inheritance confused,
it was thought the Clemence, widow of the last of the previous
counts, then married Alberic, bringing to him a claim to the
County, which passed to her 'son' Alberic II. (it didn't help
that Clemence was refered to herself as Countess of Dammartin
pretty much throughout her life.) This was all before the
parentage of Mathinde was determined. The hypothesis is, of
course, faulty, since Alberic I did not get the title through his
wife, and Mathilde, and not Alberic II, was child of Clemence.
> #4 above is said to be a brother of Adele, dame of Bulles, formerly thought
> to be the mother of #2 by her first husband Aubri de Mello. According to
> this theory, if I've got it right, #2 Alberic I, whose career was mainly at
> the French court, is identical with Alberic, lord of Norton in Suffolk, and
> the descent of Dammartin is now traced through the male line of Montdidier
> instead of Mello.
Yes, you understand it right. I have never seen the Mello
alternative explained in detail, but Mathieu is convincing, and
the historian who first hypothesized the Mello link provides the
forward to the work, expressing absolute faith in the conclusions.
> #17 is thought to have been the second daughter of Robert II the Pious, king
> of the Franks by his third wife Constance de Provence, but this is not
> certain.
The argument is that Dammartin passed from the crown to Manasses,
that Constance is a very rare name at the time, practically
unknown in the north, escept for the queen, and that Manasses
named his eldest son Hugh, which while not as rare points to the
possibility of a connection with the Capetians. Against this is
the statement of Raoul Glaber, who assigns Robert and Constance
just two (unnamed) daughters, and we already know of Adelaide and
Alvais, but I am assured by Christian Settipani that Glaber is
not to be trusted on such a detail anyhow.
taf
Douglas Richardson
Dear Peter ~
One well known family that descends from the Dammartin family above is
the Tyrrell family of Essex. The connection comes through an early
Tyrrell wife who was a Borgate heiress of Suffolk. The Borgate family
in turn descends from Galiena de Dammartin, an heiress of the
Dammartin family above. The Tyrrell family included the Borgate arms
among their quarterings.
As for Galiena de Dammartin, my research indicates she also descends
from the well known Gournay family, her paternal grandmother being a
Galiena de Gournay. Galiena de Gournay was a member of a cadet branch
of the Gournay family, of Norfolk and co. Oxford.
I have a passing interest in the Tyrrell-Borgate-Dammartin link, as my
children descend from the Tyrrell family.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Stewart, Peter
> From: royala...@msn.com [mailto:royala...@msn.com]
> Sent: Monday, 20 May 2002 15:39
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Dammartin
>
> Dear Peter ~
>
> One well known family that descends from the Dammartin family above is
> the Tyrrell family of Essex. The connection comes through an early
> Tyrrell wife who was a Borgate heiress of Suffolk. The Borgate family
> in turn descends from Galiena de Dammartin, an heiress of the
> Dammartin family above. The Tyrrell family included the Borgate arms
> among their quarterings.
>
> As for Galiena de Dammartin, my research indicates she also descends
> from the well known Gournay family, her paternal grandmother being a
> Galiena de Gournay. Galiena de Gournay was a member of a cadet branch
> of the Gournay family, of Norfolk and co. Oxford.
>
> I have a passing interest in the Tyrrell-Borgate-Dammartin link, as my
> children descend from the Tyrrell family.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Is this the family of Sir James Tyrrell, who was executed on 6 May 1502 for
his part in the murder of the "Princes in the Tower"?
That gentleman was my ancestral uncle (by marriage), as his confessed
victims were too (by blood).
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
> Peter Stewart wrote:
> > Can someone check what Keats-Rohan says about #4 and his sons, and/or
> > correct what I am reporting from Mathieu?
>
> Mathieu liberally. The other secondary source cited is Michael Bur, "De
> quelques champenois dans l'entourage francais des rois d'Angleterre aux XIe
> et XII siecles", in Keats-Rohan, ed., Family Trees (1997).
>
> More detailed comments are interspersed below.
>
> > 1 Alberic II, count of Dammartin-en-Goële, died 20 September 1200
> >
> > 2 Alberic I le Chambrier, count of Dammartin, lord of Norton, died
> > 1181/2
> > 3 NN (his first wife), living 1147
>
> KR says only that Alberic was son of Odo I de Dammartin and Basilia, that he
> was chamberlain to Louis VI from 1122 to 1129, and that he was living in
> 1162, the year his son Aubrey became count of Dammartin. "See Mathieu".
>
> > 4 Eudes de Dammartin, of Norton & Mendlesham, Suffolk, died 1130
> > 5 Basilie N
>
> He left issue Odo, Alberic, William, Stephen, Manasser and Haimo. Mathieu
> suggested Basilia was a sister of Haimo de Saint-Clair.
> The son Odo was lord of Strumshaw and asnwered for one fee in chief in 1166;
> his heir in 1212 was another Odo who had married a sister of Richard de
> Lucy.
> The son William held eleven and a half fees of his kinsman Roger de Clare in
> 1166. Also appears as Alan.
> The son Stephen married Sara, daughter of Alfred de Benniville, by whom
> Gilbert, a monk by 1174 and Basilia, wife of Hugh of Bolton.
> The son Manasser also occurs as Walter. Fairly full account. In summary,
> married Galiena, had sons Bartholomew, Odo, Haimo and William. Manasser died
> 1178/9, succeeded by Bartholomew (dsp by 1194; his own article says d.1190).
> Heir by 1197 was Galiena, dau of his son William (Bartholomew's article says
> William d.1195), who married 3 times [details given]. Manasser also had
> c.1168 a nephew Manasser, eldest son of Odo de Compeng.
>
> > 8 Hugues I de Montdidier, count of Dammartin, died ca 1100
> > 9 Rohais de Clare, died 1121
>
> suggests Rohais was daughter of Richard de Clare and 2ndly the wife of Eudo
> Dapifer.
>
> Chris Phillips
Hi Chris ~
Manassser de Dammartin (died 1178/9) above married Galiena de Gournay.
Their son, William's daughter, Galiena de Dammartin, was their
heiress. She married three times to Briwer, Borgate and Mandeville.
She left issue by her Borgate and Mandeville marriages. The Tyrrell
family of Essex descends from the Borgate marriage. Sir James Tyrrell
who Peter Stewart mentioned is a member of this family.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Janet Ariciu
"I wonder if Katherine Keats-Rohan's _Domesday Descendants_ sheds any light
on the Dammartin family in England.
The lineage was reconstructed by JN Mathieu in *Recherches sur les premiers
comtes de Dammartin*, _Mémoires publiés par la Fédération des sociétés
historiques et archéologiques de Paris et de l'Ile-de-France_, 47 (1996),
which I haven't seen but understand from correspondence as follows:
1 Alberic II, count of Dammartin-en-Goële, died 20 September 1200
2 Alberic I le Chambrier, count of Dammartin, lord of Norton, died
1181/2
3 NN (his first wife), living 1147
4 Eudes de Dammartin, of Norton & Mendlesham, Suffolk, died 1130
5 Basilie N
8 Hugues I de Montdidier, count of Dammartin, died ca 1100
9 Rohais de Clare, died 1121
16 Manassès de Montdidier, count of Dammartin, killed 15 Dec 1037
17 Constance (of France)
18 Richard fitz Gilbert, lord of Clare, died May 1089"
With what I have found below and what Peter Stewart post are we both talking
about the same family???
In my search of the Awbrey family. Alberic II and Lord of Clare both in
the Awbrey family tree or should lineages lines.
I well mention the books and then what was said.
ANNALS AND ANTIQUITIES of THE COUNTIES and COUNTY FAMILES OF WALES" by
Thomas Nicholas
"Subtitle: "BRECONSHIRE; Extinct Families of Norman Origin"
P 86
OLD FAMILES OF NORMAN BLOOD
"As was the custom under the Norman feudal system, Bernard Newmarch divided
the land of Bycheiniog between himself and his chief follows; and these
became in course of time, through intermarriage with the Welsh, more that
Norman. It has already been intimated that a large proportion of William the
Conqueror's forces were pure or mixed Celts from Brittany, Normandy, and
elsewhere,- many of them , indeed, descendants of Cynry from Wales, who had
sought refuge and settlement in Brittany during the Saxon and Danish
troubles; and it is more than probable that some of Newmarch's companions
wer of this description, and only restored the purity of their Celtic blood
by alliances with the people of Brycheiniog. The example of marrying into
Welsh families was set by Bernard Newmarch himself, who took to wife the
notorious Nest, daughter of Trahaearn ap Caradog, and niece of Llywelyn as
Seissyllt.
The Descendants of the Norman fief-holders of Brycheiniog best know to out
times are the BURGHILLS, the GUNTERS, the AWBREYS, the HAVARDS, the PETOUS,
the WALBEOFFES. When Powel wrote his HISTORIE OF CAMBRIA- or, rather,
annotated and publish Caradog ap Ilancarvan's Chronicle- in early part of
the seventeenth century, most of the leading knights who fought with
Newmarch had still representatives who claimed a share in their original
estates. Powel says,-
"here came manie gentleman with the said Bernard Newmarch..upon whom he
bestowed divers manours, which their heirs do possess and enjoy even to our
time" He then mentions some of them by name, with manors. "The ASBERYES" had
received the manours of ABERCYNRIG and SLOWCH; the WALBIEFES, the manour of
Llanhamlach and Taly-Lhyn; the "GUNTERS, the manour of Gilston" (rather of
Tregunter, whence they removed to Gilston); and the "HAVARDS, the manour of
Pont-wiym"----HIST. CAMBR., p. 150.
AWBREYS OF ABERCYNRIG
The AWBREYS, derived from the Norman De Alberico, corrupted into Awbrey,
were contemporary with the Conquest. Sir Riginald Awbery was on of Newmarch'
s chief men, and got as his reward the lands of Abercynrig and Slwch. In the
fifth generation after him, John Awbrey, according to Jones, sold Slwch to
Richard, of the line of Caradog 'Freichfras, whose descendants resided there
for upwards of four centuries, latterly under the name of Thomas, Abercynrig
continued the seat of Awbreys until their decline, but this also was sold in
more recent times, The family in the third generation after Bernard Newmarch
's conquest, began to intermarry with the Welsh, and in course of time
became a Substantially Welsh family.
AWBREY OF YNYSCEDWIN
>From Jenkin Awbrey, of Abercynrig, descended, at some distance, Evan Gwyn
Awbrey, who married a Herbert of Crughowel. Their grandson, Morgan, was of
Ynyscedwin, in the Vale of Tawe, and married a daughter of Thomas Games, of
Abergran. Hes great-granddaugther merged the name of Awbrey in that of
Gough, of Willersely, one of whose sons married Elinor Williams, of
Aberpergwm (d.s.p.) and from third son, Fleming, the persent Mr Gough of
Ynyscedwin is descended."
Stiant Awbrey, founder of the Aubrey family in Great Britain was " second
brother to the Lord Awbrey, Earle of Bullen and Earle Marechal of France and
came to England with William ye Conqueror in Anno 1066"
**Sir Rinalt Awbrey son of Stiant, married a daughter of the Earle of Clare
and Priany. Reginald (Rinalt) de St. Awbrey (de Sancto Alberico)born: abt
1175 died ?.Reginald wife was Isabel de Clare and their second son.
St. Almedha, though not included in the ordinary lists, is said to have been
a daughter of Brychan, and sister to St. Canoc, and to have borne the name
of Elevetha, Aled, or Elyned, latinised into Almedha. The Welsh genealogists
say, that she suffered martyrdom on a hill near Brecknock, where a chapel
was erected to her memory; and William of Worcester says she was buried at
Usk. Mr. Hugh Thomas (who wrote an essay towards the history of
Brecknockshire in the year 1698) speaks of the chapel as standing, though
unroofed and useless, in his time; the people thereabouts call it St.
Tayled. It was situated on an eminence, about a mile to the eastward of
Brecknock, and about half a mile from a farm-house, formerly the mansion and
residence of the Aubreys, lords of the manor of Slwch, which lordship was
bestowed upon Sir Reginald Awbrey by Bernard Newmarche, in the reign of
William Rufus. Some small vestiges of this building may still be traced, and
an aged yew tree, with a well at its foot, marks the site near which the
chapel formerly stood."
Next book
"LIMBUS PATRUM MORGANIAE ET GLAMORGANIAE. Being The Genealogies of the Older
Families of the Lordships of Morgan and Glamorgan. Now, for the First Time,
Collected, Collated and Printed" by George T Clark of Talygarn. Publish in
London by Wyman and Sons date 1886.
Page 337
"Awbrey of Abercynfrig, Co., Brecknock and Llantrithyd Co., Gramorgan"
The family of Awbrey is of high antiquity in Brecknock and branches of it
settled in Caremarthen and Glamorgan, and latterly in Oford and Bucks.
Before its settlement in Glamorgan it had intermarried frequently in that
county, chiefly in its western part.
The earlier descents of the recorded pedigrees are without authority, and it
is quite evident that the five hundred years intervening between the founder
and the eighth on the list could not have been spanned by the number of
generations.
Arms----- "Azure, a chevron between 3 eagles' heads erased or" Crest--- "An
eagle's heard erased or" Motto--- " Solem Fero"
Alberic,Earl of Boulgne and Dammartin, and Earl Mareschal of France in 1066,
is said to have been elder brother of a certain.
I. Saunders de Sancto Alberico or de Alta Ripa, was bc ? in France &
reportedly a brother of Alberic, Earl of Boulogne & Dammartin, & Earl
Fareschal of France in 1066. (He invaded Eng. with William the Conqueror in
1066.) Father of Reginald
Sir Reginald de Sancto Alberico ) son of Saunders de Sancto Alberico married
a daughter of the Earle of Clare and Priany. Reginald (Rinalt) de St. Awbrey
(de Sancto Alberico) born: ? died ?marr. Isabel de Clare (bc in Normandy,
France to Richard de Clare, Earl of Briones & Earl of Claire & Tunbridge).
Sir Reginald accompanied Bernard Newmarch in conquering Brecknock, where he
reputed to have won Abercynfrig & Siwch. He owned the manor of Abercynfrig &
Slough & other properties in Wales. Reginald wife was Isabel de Clare.
Isabel de Clare is a descend of Charlemagne
"THE DOMESDAY BOOK"
"Tonbridge Richard of Also called Richard deClare and Richard, FitzGilbert,
Son of Count Gilbert of Brion, brother of Baldwin of Exeter, Lord of Clare ,
Suffolk, Lord of Lowry of Tonbridge Castle. Holdings in eight counties from
Suffolk to Devon.
Sir Reginald & Isabel became the parents of
1 Reginald , settled in France
2 William ,
3 Joan m'd Sir Peter Gunter of Tregunter
4 Agnes m'd Sir John Havard
Next Gen.
William de Sto Alberico or Awbrey , of Abercynfrig, county Brecknock, Wales,
married Joan Gunter , daughter of Sir William Gunter, Knight. "Sable a
~chevron between 3 gauntlets or"
Their son
Thomas Awbrey born: in Abercynfrig, Wales m'd Joan Carew father John Lord
Carew. "or, 3 lions passant in pale sable"
Children:
1. Thomas Awbrey in Abercynfrig, Wales m'd Joan Trahearn (born abt 1274)
Thomas Awbrey of Aberkynfrig, Constable and Ranger of the Forest of
Brecknock and cuatoes of that castle. M'd Joan daughter of Treharne ap
Einion, lord of Comond. Who bore "Sable, a fess. Between 2 daggers, one
erect and one reversed or"
Children
1. Thomas Awbrey (Red-haired) ; sometimes called "Thomas Awbrey hen and also
Y.Constabl Coch. Abt in Abercynfrig, Wales. He was an officer under the Duke
of Buckingham Constable and Ranger of the Forest of Brecknock. *Thomas wife
was Nest verch Owain Gethyn of Glyn Tawe;ap Maenarch. She bore "Azure, a
buck springing forward argent, attired or" The Parliamentary Writs make
mention of two Awbrey of co. Hereford, possibly related to or identical with
the Awbreys of Brecknock. John Awbrey was a lord of the township of
Much-Cowaren, co. Hereford 9 Edward II and manucaptor the Adam de Halnake,
M.P. for that shire. Also Thomas Awbrey was a lord of the township of
Thorndon Roudon and Waocton co. Hereford 9 Edward II.
2 Griffith who married Margaret dau of Philip ap Elidur.
Next Gen
Thomas Aubrey and his wife Nest ferch Owain Gethin are at the top of table
"Aubrey 1" on p. 44 of volume 1 of Bartrum's *Welsh Genealogies AD
1400-1500* [Aberystwyth: National Library of Wales, 1983]. This table and
the following tables (through "Aubrey 6") are their descendants down to
those born in or a little after 1500
homas "Fychan" Awbrey (bc 1234 Breck- nockshire, Wales) marr. Nest Verch
Owen Gethyn (b 1250), dtr of Owen Gethyn & Gwennllian Godwin. Owen was
paternally descended from Blethin Mayarnch, Lord of Brecknock. Thomas,
ranger of Breckneck Forest, was often called "The Red Constable". Children
of Thomas & Nest were Richard Thomas (bc 1268) & Gruffydd (bc 1270
Thomas and Nest Awbrey had
1. Richard Awbrey born: in Abercynfrig, Wales died: Richard Awbrey married
Creslie/Cresly, daughter of Philip ap Elidur of Llandeilo-vawr. "Argent, a
fees between 3 ravens sable.
Children:
1 John Awbrey of Abercynfrig, Sheriff 1586 m'd dau of Thomas of Cwrt Rhadir
Children 1. Walter Awbrey of Abercynfrig M'd Joan Morgan heiress of Rees ap
Morgan Enion of Llangattog and Rhydodin co., Carpathian "Vert a lion rampant
sable"
2 William m'd Joyce dau of William Rudhall of Clehonger Co. Hereford where
his descendants resided. Herbert Awbrey, of Clehonger JR 1 Jan 1664/65
writing to Secretary Williamson, "rejoices in his appointments under so good
a prince" [State Papers, Dom p 158] 17 Jan 1668 he gave by deed L6 per annum
to the poor Lanvrynach. He m'd Arabella Harcourt.
Walter Awbrey m'd Joan Morgan children:
1 Morgan Awbrey of Aberkynfrig married [Elizabeth] Alice Wenllian Lloyd
daughter of Watkin Thomas David Lloyd.
2 John
3 Thomas
4 Richard
5 Jenkin , ancestor of the Cadet Branch
Next Gen
Morgan Awbrey of Aberkynfrig married [Elizabeth] Alice Wenllian Lloyd
daughter and co h of Watkin ap Thomas ap David Lloyd from Einon Sais "Sable,
a chevron between 3 spears heads argent." [other accounts call his wife
Alice]Morgan Awbrey (also called "Morgan the Old" who was Lord of Brecon &
Abercynfrig (bc 1410 in Abercynfrig, Brecknockshire, Wales) marr. (1) Alice
Verch Watkin (bc 1392, dtr of Thomas Watkin & Margred Hywell, & (2) Unknown
Verch Roger Vaughn (bc 1400 in Wales). Children of Morgan & Alice, all born
in Abercynfrig, were John (bc 1413), Jenkin (bc 1416), Maud (bc 1418),
Dafydd (bc 1420), Thomas (bc 1425, d in Ystradgyrlais, Wales), Margred
(1427) & Jane (bc 1429).
Children
1 Jenkin Awbrey of Abercynfrig
2 Thomas of Ystradgynlais, whence a Branch
3 David
4 John whence a Branch
5 Jane m Howel Burchell
6 Maud m John ap Rosser ap John of Duffryn, Usk co., Brecon
7 Wenllian, 1597 m John ap Griffith Vachan
Next Gen
Jenkin Awbrey m'd Gwendoline dau of Owen {Thomas} Griffith ap Owen Gethyn of
Glyn of Glyn Tawe. "Azure , a Stag trippant argent, between his tynes a
crown or" Found this in another book *Jenkin Awbrey, esquire married
Gwenlliam, daughter of Owain ap Griffith, Esquire, of Tay y Lyn and Jenkin
Awbrey (bc 1416 Abercynfrig, Brecknockshire, Wales, 2nd son of Morgan
Awbrey) marr. Gwendoline Verch Owen (bc 1421 Glen Tawe, Wales). Gwendoline
was the dtr of Owen Griffith & Mawd Morgan. Jenkin & Gwendoline's children
were Hopkin (bc 1439),Dafydd (bc 1441), Richard (1443), Anne (bc1445),
Thomas (bc 1447) & Cissil (bc 1449).
The House of Griffith
About the year 1113, "there was a talke through South Wales, of Gruffyth,
the sonne of Rees ap Theodor, who, for feare of the king, had beene of a
child brought up in Ireland, and had come over two yeares passed, which time
he had spent privilie with his freends, kinsfolks, and affines; as with
Gerald, steward of Penbrooke, his brother-in-law, and others. But at the
last he was accused to the king, that he intended the kingdome of South
Wales as his father had enjoied it, which was now in the king's hands; and
that all the countrie hoped of libertie through him; therefore the king sent
to take him. But Gryffyth ap Rees hering this, sent to Gruffyth ap Conan,
prince of North Wales, desiring him of his aid, and that he might remaine
safelie within his countrie; which he granted, and received him joiouslie
for his father's sake." He afterwards proved so troublesome and successful
an antagonist, that the king endeavoured by every possible means to get him
into his power. To Gruffyth ap Conan he offered "mountaines of gold to send
the said Gruffyth or his head to him." And at a subsequent period, he sent
for Owen ap-Cadogan said to him, "Owen, I have found thee true and faithful
unto me, therefore I desire thee to take or kill that murtherer, that doth
so trouble my loving subjects." But Gruffyth escaped all the snares which
the king had laid for him, and in the year 1137 died a natural and
honourable death; he is styled in the Welsh chronicle, "the light, honor,
and staie of South Wales;" and distinguished as the bravest, the wisest, the
most merciful, liberal, and just, of all the princes of Wales. By his wife
Gwenllian, the daughter of Gruffyth ap Conan, he left a son, commonly called
the lord Rhys, who met the archbishop at Radnor, as is related in the first
chapter of this Itinerary.
Children:
1. Hopkin Awbrey of Abercynrig,
2 Richard, ancestor of Awbrey of Yniscedwin
3 Thomas, ancestor of Awbrey of Gunterston
4 David m'd Mary d of David Powel Vachan of Frwd-Grech
5 Ann m'd Howel Morgan
6 Cecil m'd Lewis Gunter of Tregunter
Next Gen
Hopkin Awbrey of Abercynfrig m'd Ann dau of John ap Griffith, by Alson, d of
Morgan ap Howel ap Llewelyn ap Howel Vachan by the d of William ap Philip ap
Elidur Ddu. "Arms--"Argent, a buck lodged proper, attired or, with branch in
his mouth,vert"
Children:
1. Jenkin Awbrey
2. William Awbrey This William had son Richard of Aberkynfrig who had son
Richard of Lianelyw,Breknoch who had son Thomas (third son)who had William
of Lianelyw manor. William AWBREY Birth: Abt. 1480 Of Abercynfrig, Brecon,
Wales William AWBREY Birth: Abt 1510 Of Abercynfrig, , WalesDeath: 27 Jun
1547 Brecknockshire, Wales Marriage: Abt 1535 , , Wales Spouse: Jane HERBERT
("Dr. William Awbrey (Dr of Laws), fourth son of Thomas Awbrey. I don't know
if he was ever a knight. He was the Judge Advocate of the Queen's Army at
St. Quentin, as well as Vicar General of Canterbury, Master of Requests to
Queen Elizabeth, Master in Chancery, Member of the Council of Marches, and
Member of Parliament. He was a favorite of Queen Elizabeth, and one can find
much information about him in any Dictionary of National Biography from
England, which ought to be fairly easy to find in the United States")
3 ****Thomas whence Awbrey of Cantreff
4 William m Maud Lloyd d of Philip Madoc ap Thrherne
5. John Awbrey of London
4. Felice Awbrey m John Herbert of Llangonydd
5 a dau m'd Thomas John
6 a dau m'd Walter Thomas
7 a dau m'd Owen ap Sir Rhys ap Thomas
8 a dau m'd Henry of Llanegwad
9. Margaret Awbrey m'd Henry Powel of Reeding
10. Jenet Awbrey m'd John ap Rogert Vaughan of Cathedine
Next Gen
"AWBREY OF CANTREFF AND TREDOMEN"
.***** Thomas Awbrey of Cantreff, third son of Hopkin Awbrey of Abrecynfrig
by Ann Griffith m'd Joan [Agnes] d and co h of Thomas-vychan ap Roger Thomas
Lloyd, from Einon Sais. "Sable, a chevron between 3 spear-heads argent"
Hopkin had a son Thomas Awbrey of Cantreff. He married a daughter of Thomas
Vaughan"and Thomas Awbrey (b 1481 in Abercynfrig, Brecknockshire, Wales)
marr. Joan Vaughn dtr of Thomas & Maud William Vaughn. Children of Thomas &
Joan were William (b 1529), Philip (bc 1532), Jenkin (bc 1534), Maud (bc
1538) & Margaret (bc 1540).
Thomas and Agnes Awbrey Children
1 Sir William Awbrey I m'd Willigford Millicent Williams
2 Philip m'd Angharad d of Rees ap Richard ap Rees ap Richard-vawr of
Llwyncyntefn
3 Jenkin
4 a dau m'd David Saunders
5 Maud m'd John ap Thomas John
6 Margaret m'd Christopher Games.
Next Gen
Sir William Awbrey I D.C.L. (b 1529 in Cantreff, Brecknockshire, Wales & d
6/25/1595 in Eng.) Sir William wife was Willigford Millicent Williams (born
abt 1532 in Wales) William AWBREY was born about 1530 in , South Wales. He
died in Jul 1595 in , England. He was buried on 23 Jul 1595 in St Paul
Church, London, England. He married Wilgiford WILLIAMS (bc 1530 in Tainton,
Co. Oxford, England) about 1555 in , England. Wilgiford father John
WILLIAMS. John was married about 1530.
Sir William Awbrey I m'd early in live to Willigford Millicent Williams
eldest daughter of John Williams of Eynton, Oxon bore " Sable, a chevron
between 3 nags'heads'erased argent"
William D. C. L. sometimes called the second son, was educated in the
College School of Brecon, whence he went to Oxford and became a Fellow of
All Souls' and at 25 Queen's Lecturer in Civil Law and D. C. L. By the Earl
of Pembroke he was made Judge Advocate of the Army at St Quentin and on his
return to England practiced in the Court of Arches with great success. He
was one of the Council of the Marches of Wales a Master in Chancery and
Vicar-General for the Province of Canterbury. He purchased Abercynfrig and
Palleg from his cousins and died in his house in Doctors' Commons 25 June
1595 age about 66 and was buried 28 July and had a monument in St Paul's.
The witnesses of his funeral certificate were Edward Awbrey, John Awbrey
late of Abercynfrig, Thomas and Dot Awbrey. His arms appear in glass in the
Cartoon Gallery, at the old Archiepiscopal seat of knole. They are
"Quarterly of 6,1 and 6 Awbrey. 2 Argent, a wolf salient sable. 3 Sable, a
chevron between 3 spear-heads argent. 4 Argent, 3 cocks, sable 5 Asure, 3
fl,-de-lys"
Children of this union were
1. Sir Edward Awbrey
2 Thomas , ancestor of Awbrey of Llantrithyd
3 John of Burwelton ancestor of Broad Chalk
4 Elizabeth m Thomas Norton of Norwood, Kent
5 Mary m'd William Herbert of Llangenny had six sons
6 Joan m Sir David Dun Kt.
7 Willigford m'd Rees Kemeys of Llanvair co., Monmonth
8 Lucy m'd Hugh Powel of Castell Madoc
9 Ann m'd John
Children:
1. Sir Edward Awbrey of Tredomen, jure uxoris, sheriff of Brecon,1583, 1589,
and 1599 was also of Patricio in Trallwng, patron of Llanvrynach, m'd Joan d
and co-h of William Havard of Tredomen and Lanvilt
Sir Edward wife was Joan Havard "Dr. William Awbrey had a son, Sir Edward
Awbrey of Abercynrig and Tredomen. He married Joan Havard. The Havards were
a very notable family in Breconshire, Wales. They can be found in the Llyfr
Baglan." "Sir Edward Awbrey had a son, Sir William Awbrey, who was a very
disreputable man. He wasted all the fortune left him by his grandfather Dr.
William Awbrey. --Powell, and also a book by John Aubrey-Fletcher, Sir John
Aubrey, Baronet" and Sir Edward Awbrey (bc 1549 in Tredomen, Brecknockshire,
Wales) marr. Joan Havard (bc 1560), daughter of William Havard. They had 11
children--William (bc 1581), Edward (bc 1582), Thomas (bc 1583), John (bc
1585), Hopkin (bc 1587), Havard (bc 1589), Wiligford (bc 1593), Catherine
(bc 1595), Eleanor (bc 1597), Joan (bc 1599), & Elizabeth (bc 1601).
Children
1 Edward a. p.
2. Sir William Awbrey of Tredomen Kt
3 Thomas [buried at St Dunstan's in-the-West, 16 Nov 16], buried at
Llantrithyd, 12 Jan 16 - s.p.
4 Hopkins s.p. Will proved at Brecon, 1631, mentions his uncle William LL.D
and his uncle John Maddock of Llanvrynach, sheriff of Brecon, 1607
5 Havard
6 John m the dau of Thomas Brown
7 Willigford m'd John Games of Aberdran
8 Catherine
9 Eleanor m'd Matthew Herbert of Chilbebill had issue
10 Joan m'd Charles Williams of Duffryn-Clydach who died s. p.v.p 20 March
1639
11 Elizabeth
Next Gen
William "The Extravagant" Awbrey was bc 1581 Tredomen, Brecknockshire,
Wales. He marr. Elizabeth Johns (b 1595 in Wales), dtr of Sir Thomas Johns.
William's will was proved in 1631 & he died broke. Children of William &
Elizabeth were Edward (bc 1617 Tredomen), Reginald (bc 1619 in Tredomen),
John (bc 1623 in Abercynfrig) & Thomas (bc 1624).
Theophilus Jones' History of the County of Brecknock (1898) and on page 449
he says "Sir William Awbrey m. Eliz. d. Sir Thomas Johnes/Jones of
Abermarlais." He also shows their children: Elinor m Gregory Parry; Jane m.
John Baily of Ruthin; John Awbrey; Catherine Awbrey; Edward Awbrey m.
Barbara Lloyd; John Awbrey [he is ours as the earlier John had died];Tho.
Awbrey; Harry Awbrey; and Reginald Awbrey.
Sir William Awbrey " The Extravagant" of Tredomen Kt. He sold Abercynfrig.
His will was proved at Brecon 1631, in which Anthon Gwyn, of Llasannor, is
one of his Allies-Men. Over a fireplace within his house in Brecon was a
shield "Quarterly of 9 1 Awbrey 2 a lion rampant, 3 Bleddyn. 4 Rhys Goch, 5
Wyston, 6 Einon Sais, 7n Hughes, 8 Jestyn ap Gwrgan 9 Proger" Crest of
Awbrey. He married Elizabeth d of Sir Thomas Johnes/Jones of Abermarlis-
"Argent, chevron sable between 3 ravens proper, within a border engrailed
gules, bezantee'' by Jane Paulson
Harry is Henry, Reginald died at the Battle of Edgehill. The first John died
young according to my other information.and the second John came to America.
. Elinor is Eleanor.
Sir William Awbrey born Abt 1583 in Llanelieu, Breconshire, Wales died 1631.
Sir William wife was Elizabeth Johns "Sir William had three sons: Henry,
John, and Thomas (There was a Richard and he was William and Elizabeth
grandson)that came to America. They settled in Westmoreland and Rappahannock
Counties, Virginia.
Could this Thomas Awbrey family. "I found this on a Thomas Awbrey: Loudoun
County, VA - Misc. Court and Deed Records: In a Deed recorded 13 June 1769.
I THOMAS AWBREY for the love good will and affection I have and bear towards
my dutiful Son, THOMAS AWBREY, sum to be paid to my Daughter, JAMIMA, if she
lives, if not to my Sons FRANCIS and HENRY. Is this William and Elizabeth
Awbrey son Thomas Awbrey?"
This Richard could not have been William and Elizabeth son but could
grandson of theirs or Richard was Sir Henry Awbrey grandson.
--Will of Henry Awbrey, 1694, and any Virginia Who's Who should have a
section on Henry Awbrey. Henry mentions brother John and nephew Francis in
his will" "Sir William had three sons: Henry, John, and Thomas and Richard
was Sir Henry's grandson that came to America. They settled in Westmoreland
and Rappahannock Counties, Virginia.
--Will of Henry Awbrey, 1694, and any Virginia Who's Who should have a
section on Henry Awbrey. Henry mentions brother John and nephew Francis in
his will" "
Henry Awbrey's will is at the bottom of this page with his son Richard will
too and the link to Henry marriage to the Meador family
"Elizabeth Johns who married Sir William Awbrey was descended on both sides
from the Berkeley family. This family descends many different ways from
Charlemagne, as well as the majority of the early Norman kings of England.
This line would apply to you as you are a descendant of John Awbrey Sr., a
son of Sir William Awbrey and Elizabeth Johns. This line would not apply to
the other Awbrey branches, such as the group that immigrated to
Pennsylvania, or the branch that continued to reside in England as Baronets
of Llantrithydd. The Virginia Awbreys are the only ones descended from
Elizabeth Johns.
I know that Elizabeth father was Sir Thomas Johns (Jones) of Abermarlais.
Sir Thomas Johns of Abermarlais who is purportedly a descendant of Edward I.
When I can find more on the line I will make page for them.
Anyway, if you are interested in royal descent, I can give you the royal
descent of the Awbrey family from the Royal House of Gwent, an ancient Welsh
kingdom near the southern Wales- England border. This line can be proven
through heraldic law and is mentioned often in association with the Herbert
family, Earls of Pembroke and Lords of Raglan Castle (Awbrey cousins).
Howell Ichon, Prince of Gwent had a daughter
Gwendoline, who married William Herbert, Lord of Gwarinddu, and had a son
Thomas ap William Herbert, who had a son
Philip Herbert of Llansaintffraid who married Joan, daughter of Thomas
Blethin, esq., and had a son
Watkin Herbert, who had a son
William Herbert of Gwernevald, who had a
Daughter, who married Thomas Vaughan, and had a
Daughter who married Thomas Awbrey, and had a son
Dr. William Awbrey of Kew, Vicar General of Canterbury, who bore the arms of
Inyr, King of Gwent, paternal ancestor of the aforementioned Howell Ichon,
Prince of Gwent.
Sir Edward Awbrey, son of Dr. William Awbrey, had a son
Sir William Awbrey of TreDomen and Abercynrig, who had a son
John Awbrey, Sr. of Westmoreland County, Virginia. 1664 --Llyfr Baglan &
Burke's Extinct Peerages.
William Awbrey and Elizabeth Johns children:
1. Edward Awbrey. Who sold Tredomen, being, like his father extranavagant.
He m'd 1st Halestone, whom he put away; 2nd Barbara d of Rees Lloyd of
Dyfnych by a d of John Awbrey.
2. Reginald Awbrey Birth: Abt. 1619 Of Tredomen, Brecon, Wales; Reginald
died at the Battle of Edgehill
3 John died young
4. Thomas Awbrey Abt. 1621 Of Tredomen, Brecon, Wales: Came to America
5. Henry Awbrey ABBT 1622 of Tredomen, Brecon, Wales: Came to America
1st to ? marriage: 1635 Talley, Carmarthen, Wales. and Henry AWBREY b: 1638
in Essex Co., VA Sarah HOSKINS/Meador b: 1637 m: Aft. 1662 d: 1672 3rd to
Mary maiden unknown
6. John Awbrey I Birth: Abt. 1623 Abercynfrig, Brecon, Wales: Came to
America
7. Catherine Awbrey Birth: Abt. 1629 Of Tredomen, Brecon, Wales
8. Jane Awbrey Birth: Abt. 1630 Of Tredomen, Brecon, Wales m'd John Bailey
of Ruthyn
9. Elinor Awbrey Birth: Abt. 1631 Of Tredomen, Brecon, Wales m'd Gregory
Perry second son of Blanch Perry,
# 6 John Awbrey is my ancestor.
Janet
Douglas Richardson
I have the following information in my Gournay file which concerns
Galiena de Gournay, wife of Manasser de Dammartin. I suspect with a
little effort, Galiena de Gournay's grandfather, William de Gournay,
can be placed in the main Gournay family. As I stated in an earlier
post, Galiena de Gournay is ancestress to the Tyrrell family of Essex.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - -
GOURNAY FAMILY ACCOUNT
1. GERARD DE GOURNAY, of Caister, Norfolk, seigneur of
Gournay-en-Brie, la Ferte-en-Brie, and Gaillefontaine, founder of
Lessingham Priory, Norfolk, son and heir. He married before 1091
AIDIEVE (or EDIVA) DE WARENNE, daughter of William de Warenne, lst
Earl of Surrey, by Gundred, sister of Gerbod, Earl of Chester. Her
maritagium included the manor of Mapledurham, co. Oxford. They had
one son, Hugh, and one daughter, Gundred. He and his father witnessed
the foundation charter of Holy Trinity Caen in 1082 by King William
the Conqueror. In 1090, he stood by William Rufus against Duke
Robert, and, on their reconciliation, his allegiance and castles in
Normandy were transferred to Duke Robert. He and his mother confirmed
all of his father's gifts to the Abbey of Bec. He accompanied Robert,
Duke of Normandy, on a crusade in 1096, and was with Bohemond in the
advance from Nice in Bythinia. GERARD DE GOURNAY was living in 1104,
and is said to have died on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. His widow
married (2nd) Drew de Monceaux (living 1131). They had one son, Drew.
Note: Daniel Gurney (Record of the House of Gournay, pp. 286-289,
292-293, 776-777) alleges that Gerard de Gournay and his wife, Ediva,
had a younger son, Walter de Gournay (living 1150), ancestor of the
Gurnay family of Norfolk. Such an individual existed but he had no
association in the records with the senior branch of the Gournay
family. Rather, it appears that Walter was closely related to a
Galiena de Gournay, born say 1120, living c. 1170, wife of Manasser de
Dammartin (died 1178/9), of Mendlesham and Cotton, Suffolk, Norton
Mandeville, Essex, etc. Surviving records show that Manasser de
Dammartin enfeoffed Walter de Gurnay with a ź knight's fee in Suffolk
during the Civil War between King Stephen and Empress Maud. In 1150,
Walter de Gournay witnessed a charter to Missenden Abbey for Manasser
and Galiene. Charter evidence proves that Galiene was the
granddaughter of an unplaced William de Gurnay, of Addington, co.
Kent, whose gift to the see of Rochester she confirmed by her own
undated charter. Given these facts, it is doubtful that Walter de
Gournay was the son of Gerard de Gournay as alleged [References:
Hasted, 4 (1798): 544-545; W. A. Copinger, Manors of Suffolk, 3
(1909): 277-278; Lewis C. Loyd and Doris M. Stenton, eds., Sir
Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals (1958), pp. 229-230, 239-240; VCH
Essex, 4 (1956): 151-152; Genealogist, 15 (1965): 53-63 (article on
Dammartin family) ; J. G. Jenkins, ed., Cartulary of Missenden Abbey,
1: 70-75; Michael Gervers, Cartulary of the Knights of St. John of
Jerusalem in England (19__), pg. 216].
- - - - - - - -
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.0205...@posting.google.com>...
Peter Stewart
news:5cf47a19.02052...@posting.google.com
> Dear Peter, Chris, etc. ~
>
> I have the following information in my Gournay file which concerns
> Galiena de Gournay, wife of Manasser de Dammartin. I suspect with a
> little effort, Galiena de Gournay's grandfather, William de Gournay,
> can be placed in the main Gournay family. As I stated in an earlier
> post, Galiena de Gournay is ancestress to the Tyrrell family of Essex.
It's interesting that Manasser appears to have been named after his
great-grandfather the count of Dammartin, who was killed in battle at
Bar-le-Duc in 1037, without this rare name appearing (at least for an
adult in surviving records) over the two generations of their family &
a whole century of breeding time between them. If this had not been so,
the full descent might have occurred to someone before Mathieu -
onomastic patterns are by no means a consistent guide to genealogy.
Peter Stewart
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Todd A. Farmerie
> With what I have found below and what Peter Stewart post are we both talking
> about the same family???
Well, yes and NO. As I commented the last time you posted this,
some of the individuals mentioned in this pedigree are the Counts
of Dammartin that we have been discussing. However, they have
absolutely no connection whatsoever with either de St. Alberico
nor the Awbrey family (which are not related to each other either).
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> The son Manasser also occurs as Walter. Fairly full account. In summary,
> married Galiena, had sons Bartholomew, Odo, Haimo and William. Manasser died
> 1178/9, succeeded by Bartholomew (dsp by 1194; his own article says d.1190).
And Mathieu says 1189.
taf
Roger LeBlanc
Manasses seems a rare name and yet in the eleventh century there were besides the
father and son Dammartin counts, the counts of Saint-Pol--also Manasses and Hugh,
and the counts of Rethel, again Manasses and Hugh.
Are any of these the same people, or are they known to be related in any way?
Any enlightenment would be welcome.
Roger LeBlanc
Todd A. Farmerie
> I have a question regarding the father-son name combination of Manasses--Hugh.
>
> Manasses seems a rare name and yet in the eleventh century there were besides the
> father and son Dammartin counts, the counts of Saint-Pol--also Manasses and Hugh,
> and the counts of Rethel, again Manasses and Hugh.
>
> Are any of these the same people, or are they known to be related in any way?
They are not the same people, and the use of these names together
appear to be coincidental. The name Manassas was used by the
Rameru ancestors of Dammartin, while the name Hugh appears to
have derived from a marriage to the granddaughter of Hugh Capet.
The earliest Manasses, Count of Rethel, was nephew of the
Archbishop of Rheims, and appear to derive from the region where
the Rameru eventually would hold sway, but whether there was an
ancestral connection remains vague. As to the name Hugh, its
appearance in the Rethel Counts cannot be readily explained by
the data at hand.
taf