Ralph the staller
branol
dead in 1069 or 1070 and father of Raoul de Montfort-Gael (in Brittany),
earl of East-Anglia, born in 1040 et dead between 1097-1100? The wife of
Raoul was Emma Fitz Osbern.
Olivier Cocheril
Chris Phillips
A search in the archives (e.g. from
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=soc.genealogy.medie
val) using the keyword "staller" will turn up quite a lot of previous
discussion, both on his and his wife's genealogy, and on his office.
For example, there was a thread in April entitled "Nephew of Robert the
Staller".
Chris Phillips
Betty Owen
Also is this the one that was a relative of King Edward the Confessor but I
am not sure it ever says what the relationship was?
Ralph of Gael was Earl of Norfolk until the Norman Rebellion and yes he
died in or after 1096 on Crusade. I think Emma is also sometimes referred
to as Emma de Breteuil as that was her place of birth and William fitz
Obern's holding where his childern most likely were born and raised.
-----------------
Back to Ralph the Staller I beleive he married an Anglo-Saxon and had a son
named Harold --- it is not known but surmised that the name possibly came
naming after Harold or more than likely from his mother's side of the
family....
----------------------------------
This is a weak point and not much evidence but it is said that he was Uncle
or great -Uncle to Hereward the Wake... I am guessing that may be from the
wife's side of the family... but who really knows.
Ah !!!!! I see Oliver !!!!!!!!!!
I think I see where you are going with this now.....
I see Godgifu daughter of Atherlred II and Queen Emma is showing this man to
be her grandson.... That would certainly make sense even more about the
rebellion..... However, I cannot verify this pedigree.....
Does anyone have the pedigree for Queen Emma complete? Taf do you by any
chance..... ? How far do we know about her daughters decsendants?
Betty
Betty Owen
> Ah !!!!! I see Oliver !!!!!!!!!!
> I think I see where you are going with this now.....
> I see Godgifu daughter of Atherlred II and Queen Emma is showing this man
to
> be her grandson.... That would certainly make sense even more about the
> rebellion..... However, I cannot verify this pedigree.....
Just to clarify I am referring to Ralph of Gael... not the staller.
---------------------------------------------------------
Terry Mair
and Ralph Earl of Hereford de Sudeley where the same person but I could not
find an answer, is this true or imagined?
Thanks
Terry
Todd A. Farmerie
There are two distinct individuals that are being confused here.
One, Earl Ralph, was nephew of Eadweard the Confessor, son of
his sister Godgifu. He was made an Earl by his uncle, but made a
rather poor showing against the Welsh. He was the father of
Harold, from whom descent can be traced. He is distinct from:
Ralph the Staller, who is apparently the same man as appears in
Breton records as Ralph Anglicus. Nothing specific is known of
his pedigree (although there has been specilation as to the
nationalities of his unnamed parents). He was father of Ralph de
Gael.
taf
Betty Owen
Oh Thanks Taf_____!!!!!!
>
> There are two distinct individuals that are being confused here.
> One, Earl Ralph, was nephew of Eadweard the Confessor, son of
> his sister Godgifu. He was made an Earl by his uncle, but made a
> rather poor showing against the Welsh. He was the father of
> Harold, from whom descent can be traced. He is distinct from:
Okay then is he the one that is suspected of marrying an anglo saxon woman?
and has a child named Harold?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ralph the Staller, who is apparently the same man as appears in
> Breton records as Ralph Anglicus. Nothing specific is known of
> his pedigree (although there has been specilation as to the
> nationalities of his unnamed parents). He was father of Ralph de
> Gael.
Okay are you saying that he is the father of Emma's husband then?
Then did this man not serve Edward the Confessor.?.. the term Staller, as
far as I know is strickly an English term for a Staller of the King....
-----------------------------------------------------------
Betty
>
Todd A. Farmerie
> One of the questions raised on the search below is that Ralph the staller
> and Ralph Earl of Hereford de Sudeley where the same person but I could not
> find an answer, is this true or imagined?
It is not true, although the two are often confused. They are
completely distinct in the original documents, and it is only in
much later genealogies that they are forced together as the same
individual.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> Oh Thanks Taf_____!!!!!!
>
>>There are two distinct individuals that are being confused here.
>> One, Earl Ralph, was nephew of Eadweard the Confessor, son of
>>his sister Godgifu. He was made an Earl by his uncle, but made a
>>rather poor showing against the Welsh. He was the father of
>>Harold, from whom descent can be traced. He is distinct from:
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Okay then is he the one that is suspected of marrying an anglo saxon woman?
> and has a child named Harold?
He had a son Harold (de Sudeley). As to marrying an Anglo-Saxon
wife, this is less clear, as his mother was Anglo-Saxon, so he
need not have married an Anglo-Saxon woman himself to have a son
with an Anglo-Saxon name. That being said, it seems likely, as
his active adult life was spent in England (the only reasonable
alternative, considering his power-base, would have been a Welsh
woman).
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Ralph the Staller, who is apparently the same man as appears in
>>Breton records as Ralph Anglicus. Nothing specific is known of
>>his pedigree (although there has been specilation as to the
>>nationalities of his unnamed parents). He was father of Ralph de
>>Gael.
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Okay are you saying that he is the father of Emma's husband then?
> Then did this man not serve Edward the Confessor.?.. the term Staller, as
> far as I know is strickly an English term for a Staller of the King....
> -----------------------------------------------------------
This was the father of Ralph de Gael, husband of Emma. He was
one of the Stallers to Eadweard the Confessor, which places him
several steps lower int he social order than the King's nephew Ralph.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> Oh Thanks Taf_____!!!!!!
>
>>There are two distinct individuals that are being confused here.
>> One, Earl Ralph, was nephew of Eadweard the Confessor, son of
>>his sister Godgifu. He was made an Earl by his uncle, but made a
>>rather poor showing against the Welsh. He was the father of
>>Harold, from whom descent can be traced. He is distinct from:
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Okay then is he the one that is suspected of marrying an anglo saxon woman?
> and has a child named Harold?
I (finally) found my copy of Barlow's Edward the Confessor. He
states, ". . . that Ralf of Mantes was living with his wife,
Gytha, and their son, Harold (both Danish names), on their
estates in Herefordshire, . . ." (this Ralf de Mantes is the Earl
Ralph we have been discussing, the son of Godgifu and nephew of
Eadweard the Confessor). For Gytha, he cites the Domesday Book,
which sent me looking to Keats-Rohan's Domesday People.
I have yet to find an entry for Gytha, so I looked at her son
Harold, thinking there would be a clue where to look for Gytha.
Unfortunately, as has been noted in the past, the entry for
Harold contains two errors in the first sentence:
"Harold de Ewias
Son and heir of Ralph of Dreux, earl of Hereford, and Goda,
sister of Edward the Confessor."
First, Harold's father was not Ralph of Dreux, but rather Ralph
of Mantes, son of Dreux (Drogo), Count of Mantes. Likewise,
Harold was not son of Ralph and Goda, sister of Edward, but
rather he was son of Ralph, who in turn was son of Dreux and Goda
(Godgifu), sister of Edward. Setting aside the error itself, it
also deprives us of a cross reference to Gytha, and thus I am
still at a loss trying to find her. (Maybe she is named as owner
temp Edward, in which case she would not appear in DP.)
Given her name, it would appear Ralph's wife was Scandinavian,
and not English.
taf
Betty Owen
> I (finally) found my copy of Barlow's Edward the Confessor. He
> states, ". . . that Ralf of Mantes was living with his wife,
> Gytha, and their son, Harold (both Danish names), on their
> estates in Herefordshire, . . ." (this Ralf de Mantes is the Earl
> Ralph we have been discussing, the son of Godgifu and nephew of
> Eadweard the Confessor).
Well hum, Okay I want to be sure I have this right Is this Ralf the Staller
? No? right?
This man Ralf of Mantes de Mantes? was made Earl and had a son named
Harold.......
You are very correct. that Gytha is a Danish name. I saw one pedigree trying
to connect this woman to Godwin. Surely she could not be a Daughter of
Godwin? Gytha is also name of the mother of harold II and the wife of
Godwin. Or could this be a daughter of Harolds....? that would certainly
fit.... and I understand I doubt that there is any proof to support this.
And my next question was this man involved in the Norman Rebellion in 1075?
Is he the brother to Walter that was poisoned (possibly) ?
For Gytha, he cites the Domesday Book,
> which sent me looking to Keats-Rohan's Domesday People.
000-----------------------------------------------------
As far as the Domesday goes... How would Keats separate Gytha the Wife of
Godwin from the wife of Ralph?
Just curious....
----------------------------------
I need to pull out my Harold book now to see if he made a mistake about the
Ralph in that book as well.
You certainly have given me a lot to think about.
Betty
Todd A. Farmerie
> Taf Said:
>
>>I (finally) found my copy of Barlow's Edward the Confessor. He
>>states, ". . . that Ralf of Mantes was living with his wife,
>>Gytha, and their son, Harold (both Danish names), on their
>>estates in Herefordshire, . . ." (this Ralf de Mantes is the Earl
>>Ralph we have been discussing, the son of Godgifu and nephew of
>>Eadweard the Confessor).
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Well hum, Okay I want to be sure I have this right Is this Ralf the Staller
> ? No? right?
> This man Ralf of Mantes de Mantes? was made Earl and had a son named
> Harold.......
Yes, this is the Earl, not the Staller.
> You are very correct. that Gytha is a Danish name. I saw one pedigree trying
> to connect this woman to Godwin. Surely she could not be a Daughter of
> Godwin? Gytha is also name of the mother of harold II and the wife of
> Godwin. Or could this be a daughter of Harolds....? that would certainly
> fit.... and I understand I doubt that there is any proof to support this.
> And my next question was this man involved in the Norman Rebellion in 1075?
> Is he the brother to Walter that was poisoned (possibly) ?
While the correlation of names is tempting, I would think that
the marriage of Earl Ralph (the King's nephew) to a daughter of
Godwin (and hence a sister of the Queen) would have been noticed.
> 000-----------------------------------------------------
> As far as the Domesday goes... How would Keats separate Gytha the Wife of
> Godwin from the wife of Ralph?
> Just curious....
My guess would bw that the latter is identified either as Gytha,
widow of Earl Ralph, or was holding land known to have passed to
her son Harold.
taf