Descendants of Sir Thomas More - Ref. John Moore (b.1584) of Elizabeth City
marw...@hotmail.com
Ancestry.com claim that John Moore of Elizabeth city county was the
son of Mary More (a great-granddaughter of Sir/Saint Thomas More) and
her husband Edward Moore.
Mary More is sometimes said to be "of Barnborough" (or variant
spellings), Yorkshire, England,.
Edward is said to be "of" various places, including Barnborough,
Bampton, Oxford, Reading, London, Berkshire, Shropshire, and Ireland.
I would point out to those who want to maintin the myth/fantasy, that
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE FOR THIS.
With regard to 'Mary More', and with specific reference to her
marriage to Edward Moore and to their children:
Mary More was born on 25 December 1553. This was not recorded by
anyone until I first posted it on RootsWeb a few years ago - and many
have since copied it onto their sites.
Mary was born at Hambleden, Buckinghamshire (not Barnborough,
Yorkshire) where her parents were living after their marriage in early
1553.
Edward Moore's birth date is not recorded and any dates given are just
guesses - not good genealogy.
The family were Catholic and the baptisms of their children were not
recorded in the Church of England Parish Register. He was the son of
Thomas More of Haddon (a village in the parish of Bampton,
Oxfordshire), and his wife Dorothy Mordaunt.
The only thing known about Edward's early life was that he was a minor
(but not an infant) when his father made his will in 1561.
After their marriage, most probably in 1585 (Edward was a convicted
recusant in various London prisons for some years before that), Mary
and Edward lived with Mary's parents (Thomas More and Mary Scrope) on
their small estate at Low Leyton in Essex. THis is attested by
recusant records. Some people record their children as born at
Bampton, which is nonsense!
Edward died intestate in 1605 and Mary (then living with one of her
married daughters at Stondon Massey, Essex) in 1630. Again, this was
not known until I posted it.
There is incontrovertible evidence in the form of personal statements,
that Edward and Mary DID NOT HAVE A SON JOHN (or, as some also say, a
daughter Mary Jane). In spite of this, some still insist on
perpetuating the myth/fantasy.
Edward and Mary had ONLY TWO SONS, Henry and Thomas, both of whom
became Jesuit Priests. They also had five daughters: Isabel, Joan,
Frances, Grace and Anne. Of these Joan, Grace and Anne became
Benedictine Nuns.
My information is based on the family pedigree, on family papers, on a
sworn statement about his family by Thomas More (son of Edward and
Mary) when he entered the English College, Rome, on the history of the
Jesuits, on records of the English Benedictine Nuns in Flanders, and
on Court records of Recusancy in Essex. I have copies of these.
It seems certain that the John Moore mentioned by most people
emigrated, age 36, from England to Virginia in 1620, in the ship 'Bona
Nova', followed in 1622 by his wife Elizabeth in the 'Abigail'.
Elizabeth's second name is usually given as 'Merritt' - and various
guesses appear to be made about her origins. The ships musters make no
reference to any children travelling with either of them - so
presumably they were childless, or they left their children (for which
there is no documentary evidence) in England.
Because John Moore's age is given in the muster as 36, people have
assumed he was born in 1584 - though some, who obviously haven't
noticed this say he was born in 1576 or 78.
John and Elizabeth Moore settled in Elizabeth City County, Viginia,
where he patented land at the head of the Little Poquoson Creek in
1535.
Eminent Americal genealogists researched all this in the 1890s and
first decade of the 1900s - published in the William and Mary
Quarterly and other papers.
They did not succeed in establishing John Moore's ancestry. They
showed that he was sometimes confused - and by some, still is! - with
a Captain John Moore (of unknown birthplace and ancestry) who arrived
in Virginia around the same time, but who settled in Isle of Wight
where he eventually became a Burgess.
The American genealogists established that John Moore and Elizabeth
(second name said to be "Merritt") had only ONE son, Augustine. This
Augustine married and had two children: Augustine II and John (who
died childless in 1715-16).
Augustine II (grandson of John the immigrant) married Mary Woolley and
had a number of children (including an Augustine who died unmarried in
1637).
I hope that some people will find this information useful.
MW
david11...@yahoo.fr
The Visitation of Bedfordshire 1566 shows "Dorothie Mordaunt maryed to
Thomas More of Whaddon in com Cantebridge arg. [Bampton in com. Oxon]"
Dorothy was the daughter of John Lord Mordaunt of Turvey, Beds and
Elizabeth Vere
Lord Mordaunt's grandmother was Margaret Pecke, daughter of John Pecke
of Cople Beds, but there is no known connection to either the Peckes
of Beccles or the probably unconnected Peckes of Wakefield
David
Renia
> I note that a number of people on genealogy sites like RootsWeb and
> Ancestry.com claim that John Moore of Elizabeth city county was the
> son of Mary More (a great-granddaughter of Sir/Saint Thomas More) and
> her husband Edward Moore.
> Mary More is sometimes said to be "of Barnborough" (or variant
> spellings), Yorkshire, England,.
St Thomas More's son, John More (by his first wife Jane Colte) was
considered "little better than an idiot" by Wood, according to St Thomas
More's biographer, Roper. In 1529, John More married Ann Cresacre
(1511-1577), the heiress of Edward Cresacre of Barnborough, Yorkshire.
Their son Thomas More (1531-1606), married Mary, daughter of John Scrope
of Hambledon, Buckinghamshire in 1553, and a niece of Lord Scrope of
Bolton. He left 8 daughters and 5 sons, the eldest being John, who died
young. His will was proved in 1606. The second son was Thomas
(1565-1625), a priest. The fourth son was Cresacre More, who inherited
his brother's property at Barnborough and North Mimms. (These children
are outlined in the Dictionary of National Biography at the end of the
section on St Thomas More, but the third son and daughters are not named)
This Thomas More (b 1531) had three brothers, two of whom left children.
One of them was also called Thomas, born in 1538, who left descendants,
but the family was in poverty, and have not been traced.
The other brother who left children, was Edward More. He has his own
entry in the Dictionary of National Biography. He wrote a treatise
called "The Defence of Women", the dedication of which was made at
Hambledon, Buckinghamshire, on 20th July, 1557, the seat of John Scrope.
He was buried at Barnborough, Yorkshire, on 2 May, 1620, leaving two
Jesuit sons, Henry and Thomas.
Henry More (1586-1661) also has his own entry in the Dictionary of
National Biography, which includes material on his brother, Thomas
(1587-1623/4). Being Jesuit priests, they left no children.
John P. Ravilious
There is a Plantagenet connection here that has been overlooked
to date (to the best of my knowledge), although this does not involve
the ancestry of Sir Thomas More himself.
You mentioned the marriage of John More and Ann Cresacre. Her
maternal grandparents were John Cresacre of Barnborough, Yorks. and
his wife Margaret Hastings, a daughter of Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing
and Gressenhall (d. 7 Jun 1488). Margaret is usually identified in
records of the Hastings family as ' Margaret wyff to John
Grysacre' [HSP 16:156, Vis. of Yorkshire: pedigree of Hastynges]
without any linkage to Cresacre of Barnborough. Fprtunately, the
notes to the will of Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing and Fenwick provide
the helpful detail,
' Another daughter, whom Mr. Hunter calls Margaret, was the wife of
John Cresacre esq. of Barnborough,.. ' [Testa. Ebor. III:27526, will
of Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing]
A subsequent post re: one of the descendants of the More-Cresacre
marriage will provide further details as to the descent, although I
think this will not involve any emigrant to the Americas.
Cheers,
John
On Nov 22, 8:41�am, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
> > MW- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
John P. Ravilious
Following is the descent from Edward I of England, via the
subject More-Cresacre marriage, to Sir James Dalton-FitzGerald, 8th
Baronet (dsp 1867). Among those included below are Bridget More (d.
11 Oct 1692), prioress of the English Benedictine nuns in Paris.
There are a few more interesting descendants, including the
naturalist Charles Waterton (d. 1865), if anyone is interested.
Cheers, and happy holidays,
John
1 Edward I 'Longshanks' of England
----------------------------------------
Birth: 17 Jun 1239, Westminster Palace1
Death: 7 Jul 1307, Burgh-on-the-Sands, England1
Occ: King of England 1272-1307
Father: Henry III of England (1207-1272)
Mother: Eleanor of Provence (1223-1291)
'Edward Long-Shanks'
King of England 1272-1307
Participant in the Crusade of 1270 [leader of the English forces2]
married 1stly Eleanor of Castile,
2ndly Marguerite of France1
Spouse: Eleanor of Castile
Birth: 1241, Castile1
Death: 28 Nov 1290, Harby, Lincolnshire1
Father: Ferdinand III of Castile (<1201-1252)
Mother: Joan of Ponthieu (-1278)
Marr: Oct 1254, Las Huelgas, Castile1
Children: Katherine (<1264-1264)
Joan (1265-<1265)
John (1266-1271)
Henry (1268-1274)
Eleanor (~1269-)
NN (1271-)
Joan 'of Acre' (1272-1307)
Alphonso (1273-1284)
Margaret (1275-1318)
Berengaria (1276-1278)
NN (1278-)
Mary (1279-1332)
Elizabeth (1282-1316)
Edward II 'of Caernarvon' (1284-1327)
Other Spouses Marguerite of France
1.1a Joan 'of Acre' of England*
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1272, Acre, kingdom of Jerusalem3
Death: 23 Apr 1307, Clare, Suffolk3
Burial: Augustinian priory, Clare
Countess of Gloucester and Hertford (2nd wife of Gilbert de Clare)
dispensation for Gilbert de Clare to marry Joan, dau. of King Edward
I, as his second wife, they being related in the 2nd and 3rd degrees
of affinity (his first wife Alix de Lusignan was first cousin to King
Edward):
' 930 Rome, S. Maria Maggiore, 1289 Nov. 16
Nicholaus (IV) "dilecto filio nobili viro Gileberto comiti
Glovernie et Hertfordie" To Gilbert (de Clare), earl of Gloucester
and Hertford, dispensing hiim to marry Joan, daughter of Edward (I),
although they are related in the second and third degrees (details
given). Datum Rome, apud S. Mariam maiorem, xvi kal. dec., pont. a.
ii. "Petitio tua nobis" - "dispensationis"
PRO SC 7/31/14. Bulla deperdita. Recto, super plicam ad d. P.
Eug.
Endorsement: sq./dispensatio concessa comiti Glouc. de habenda
filia regis in matrimonium. Registratur in magno libro. ' [Orig.
Papal Docs. p. 419, No. 9304]
she m. lstly Gilbert de Clare,
2ndly Ralph de Monthermer5
___________________
re: her husband, Gilbert de Clare:
called 'Gilbert the Red'
3rd Earl of Gloucester, 6th Earl of Hertford 3
primary supporter of Simon de Montfort, from the Oxford parliament,
May 1263;
rendered homage to Henry III, yet under age, 3 Aug 1263 and had livery
of his lands in Wales (the rest of his lands when of age, 24 Sept
1264)5
led massacre of the Jews at Canterbury, April 1264
denounced as traitor with de Montfort, 12 May 1264; knighted by de
Montfort, 14 May 1264, and then led second line of battle at Battle of
Lewes, captured King Henry.
Separated from de Montfort, reconciled to Prince Edward at Ludlow 26
May 1265.
Leader with Prince Edward at victory at Kenilworth 16 July, and
commanded second division of royal army at Battle of Evesham, 4 August
1265
received royal pardon in considertion of his service at Evesham, 9 Oct
1265, and received castle of Abergavenny and honour of Brecknock5
further disagreement with the King resolved 16 June 12676
Spouse: Gilbert de Clare
Birth: 2 Sep 1243, Christ Church, co. Hants3
Death: 7 Dec 1295, Monmouth Castle3
Father: Richard de Clare (1222-1262)
Mother: Maud de Lacy (~1223-<1288)
Marr: 30 Apr 1290, Westminster Abbey
Children: Gilbert (1291-1314)
Eleanor (1292-1337)
Margaret (ca1294-1342)
Elizabeth (1295-1360)
Other Spouses Ralph de Monthermer
1.1a.1a Eleanor de Clare*
----------------------------------------
Birth: Oct 1292, Caerphilly Castle3
Death: 30 Jun 13373
eldest daughter and coheiress of her brother
her maritagium was a gift of £2,000 made by her grandfather, King
Edward I
her inheritance included
'nearly the whole of Glamorgan and the principal part of
Gloucestershire (including the advowson of Tewkesbury Abbey).' [CP,
Vol. V - Gloucester, p. 715n]5
The manor of Great Marlow, co. Bucks. was also part of her
inheritance: the fair at Great Marlow, identified in the IPM of Joan
of Acre, '... 1307, amongst the property of the recently deceased
Joan, wife of Gilbert de Clare, earl of Gloucester and Hertford (CIPM,
iv, p. 316)' was held by Eleanor's husband:
' On 10 Jun 1325, K Edw II granted an extension of the fair to Wed+2
Whit week to Hugh le Despenser, the younger (CChR, 1300-26, p. 477).'7
she m. lstly Hugh le Despenser,
2ndly William la Zouche Mortimer
____________________
re: her 1st husband:
2nd Lord (Le) Despenser; a favorite of Edward II and Piers Gaveston.
knighted by the Prince of Wales (future Edward II), 22 May 1306 at
Westminster.
Summoned to Parliament from 29 July 1314 by writ directed 'Hugoni le
Despenser juniori', thereby considered 2nd Lord Despenser
close associate of King Edward II, his career as occasional exile and
alternately confidante detailed in CP Vol IV (Despenser), pp. 267-270
Captured together with Edward II by Mortimer's forces in co. Glamorgan
16 November, 1326; executed by Queen Isabella and Roger Mortimer, her
lover, and their party at Hereford (drawn and quartered)5
cf. CP IV:267-2715
Spouse: Hugh le Despenser
Death: 24 Nov 1326, Hereford (executed)5
Birth: ca 1287
Father: Sir Hugh le Despenser (1260-1326)
Mother: Isabel de Beauchamp (-<1306)
Marr: aft 14 Jun 13065
Children: Hugh (<1309-<1357)
Sir Edward (-1342)
Isabel (ca1312-)
Joan (-<1388)
Gilbert (<1321-1381)
Eleanor
Margaret
Elizabeth (-1389)
Other Spouses Sir William La Zouche de Mortimer
1.1a.1a.1 Sir Edward le Despenser5
----------------------------------------
Death: 30 Sep 1342, battle of Morlaix, Brittany5
Occ: knight
knight, of Buckland, co. Bucks, Eyworth, Beds., West Winterslow, co.
Wilts, and Essendine, co. Rutland
2nd son5
his father, Hugh,
'...made an arrangement with John de Crumbewelle and Idoine [de
Vipont] his wife for their properties to eventually revert to Edward
[Hugh's son]. When Idoine died in
1334, all her properties did come into Edward's possession. '9
a companion of his brother Hugh and Sir Richard Talbot; d. in the
battle of Morlaix5
cf. CP IV:274-55
Spouse: Anne de Ferrers
Death: 8 Aug 13675
Father: Sir William de Ferrers (1271-1324)
Mother: Ellen de Segrave (->1364)
Marr: 20 Apr 1335, Groby5,1
Children: Edward (1335-1375)
Hugh (ca1339-1375)
Thomas (-<1382)
Henry (>1343-1406)
Gilbert
1.1a.1a.1.1 Edward le Despenser10
----------------------------------------
Birth: 24 Mar 1335, Essendine, co. Rutland5
Death: 11 Nov 1375, Llanblethian, co. Glamorgan5
Burial: Tewkesbury Abbey
Occ: Lord Despencer
lord of Glamorgan and Morganwwg
heir of his uncle Hugh le Despenser, Lord le Despenser (d. bef Dec
1357)
his will dated 6 November 1375, at Llanblethian
Spouse: Elizabeth Burghersh
Birth: bef 5 Apr 13425
Death: 26 Jul 14095
Father: Sir Bartholomew de Burghersh (?1323-1369)
Mother: Cecily de Weyland (ca1318->1354)
Marr: bef 2 Aug 13545
Children: Cecily
Elizabeth
Anne (-1426)
Margaret (-1415)
Edward (-<1375)
Hugh (-<1375)
Thomas (1373-1399)
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a Anne le Despenser*
----------------------------------------
Death: 30 Oct 14261,2
Burial: Austin Friars Norwich2
3rd daughter
'Agnes doughter to Edward Lord Spencer & afterwards wyff to the Lord
Morley.' -[HSP 16:154-156, Vis. of Yorkshire: pedigree of Hastynges10]
sought dower in Gressenhall and East Lexham, 1 Nov 1388 (then held by
her mother):
Document relating to writ of dower, 1 Nov 12 Ric II (1388)
' Anne widow of Hugh de Hastyngges V. Elizabeth le Despenser and
others. Manors of Gressenhale and Estlexham with estates in
Gressenhale, Stanfeld, Brysley and elsewhere.' Norfolk Record Office,
Hastings of Gressenhall: MR 77 241 x 314[also A2A15]
held the manors of Gressenhall and East Lexham, Norfolk in dower,
1404:
' Lands and tenements held in farm by Saunche wife of Walter Blount
and John Blount son and heir of said Walter from Thomas Lord de
Morley in the manor of Gressenhale and Estlexham in dower.'
- A2A, Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of
Gressenhall [ MR 85 241 x 3 ]15
her 2nd marriage to Sir Thomas de Morley was the subject of a
subsequent separation and remarriage, as evidenced by the dispensation
for their remarriage, dated at St. Peter's, Rome, 12 Kal. Nov. [21
Oct.] 1390:
' To the bishop of Ely. Mandate to separate for
a time and then to absolve from the sentence of
excommunication incurred by marrying, knowing
that they were related in the fourth degree of
affinity, Thomas de Morle, knight, and Anne de
Dispenser, damsel, of the diocese of Norwich;
to grant dispensation to them to contract
marriage anew and remain therein, and to declare
past and future offspring legitimate. Thomas
and Anne hold Henry, bishop of Norwich, who
ought to have been written to in this case, for a
certain reason [not mentioned] suspect. Which-
ever of the two survive the other shall remain
perpetually unwed. '[J. Ravilious, courtesy Rosie
Bevan16; cf. CPL IV:37513]
as 'the Lady Morley, my daughter,..' to receive 'my best chalice'
under the terms of the will of her mother [will of Elizabeth de
Burghersh, Dame le Despencer, dated 4 Jul 140917]
record of her seal, dated 1425:
' Anna de Morley, Lady de Morley, wife of Sir Thomas, 4th Baron
Morley, dau. of Edward, Lord Despenser.
11,927. [A.D.1425.] Red: originally imperfect. 1 3/8 in. [Add.
ch. 19,963.]
A shield of arms: per pale, dex., a lion rampant crowned, MORLEY;
sin., DESPENSER. Held up in front by an angel. Within a finely
carved gothic device.
Sigillum : . . . . mine : de : morle ' [Birch, Cat. Seals III:
27818]
IPMs of ' Anne le Hastynges ' held in 5 Hen VI [between 31 Aug 1426
and 30 Aug 1427]:
' Hastynges, Anne le, who was the wife of Hugh, and formerly of
Thomas de Morley: Yorks, Suff, Norf, Essex, Herts, Notts .
5 Hen VI ' [National Archives C 139/30/5219 ]
She m. lstly Sir Hugh de Hastings;
2ndly (as 2nd wife) Sir Thomas Morley, Lord Morley (d.
1416)5,10
Spouse: Sir Hugh de Hastings, of Elsing and Gressenhall10
Death: 6 Nov 1386, Spain3,21
Birth: ca 134622
Father: Hugh de Hastings (<1331-1369)
Mother: Margaret de Everingham (->1375)
Children: Hugh (<1377-1396)
Sir Edward (<1382-1436)
Other Spouses Sir Thomas Morley
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a Sir Edward Hastings*
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 22 May 1382, Fenwick5
Death: 6 Jan 1436, prob. in the Marshalsea prison5,21
Bapt: 21 May 1382, Campsall, co. Yorks.5
Occ: Lord Hastings
knight, of Elsing, Gressenhall and Weasenham, Norfolk, Fenwick, co.
York & c.
'Edward Hastynges = Meryell doughter of John Denham' -[HSP 16:154-156,
Vis. of Yorkshire: pedigree of Hastynges10]
8th Lord Hastings; succeeded brother Hugh Hastings, 7th Lord, on his
death 2 Nov 1396 [while yet a minor]
styled Lord of Hastynges and Stoutville
as ' Edward Hastynges, chivaler ' was heir of uncle John de Hastings,
given seisin of the manor of Gressenhall
and other lands. Record of IPM notes, 1401:
'Edmund Oldhalle sheriff of Norfolk and John Gurnay Kings eschaetor,
Relating to descent of manor of Gressenhall etc after the death of
Sir
John Cameys, Kt and Margaret his wife to John Hastynges dec'd and
now descended to Edward Hastynges, chivaler, a minor, his cousin
and heir' -A2A, Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of
Gressenhall [MR 316A 242 x 5]15
achieved majority.
' Charter Indented - Grant: Monday after Octave of Easter 4 Hen IV
[23 Apr. 1403].
Edward de Hastynges lord of the manor of Gressenhale to Geoffrey
Lambkyn of Gressenhale. Fold with feeding in Gressenhale ' -
A2A,
Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of Gressenhall
[ MR 83 241 x 3 ]15
Grant, Morrow of All Souls 4 Hen IV [3 Nov 1404]
' Saunche wife of Walter Blount and John Blount son and
heir of said Walter to Edward Lord de Hastynges.
Lands and tenements held in farm from Thomas Lord de
Morley in the manor of Gressenhale and Estlexham in dower.'
- A2A, Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of
Gressenhall [ MR 85 241 x 3 ]15
definitive proof of the parentage of his 1st wife Muriel Dinham is
given in a Pre-nuptial settlement dated 20 Feb 1405-06:
Pre-nuptial settlement dated 7 Hen IV [20 Feb 1406] at
'Notewill', Devon, between Edward Lord of Hastyngges
(1) and John de Dynham, knight (2):
" Agreement between (1) and (2), that (1) shall marry Muriel (2)'s
daughter, and shall enfeoff certain persons at their choice (a lour
dieux ellection) with certain lands and tenements, to the value of
100 marks yearly, in 'which Muriel shall be jointured (iungne)
during her life, and that she shall be dowered in lands and
tenements to the yearly value of 300 marks along with that
jointure. For the marriage and jointure, (2) shall pay to (1) 400
marks (100 marks on the day of the marriage, 100 marks the
following Michaelmas, and 100 marks yearly at Michaelmas
until fully paid), provided that she is so jointured; if not, the
payments shall not be made.
Seal [fine; of (1) presumably]. [18th century?] "This
indenture is in French and contains articles of mariage
between Sr Edward Hastings and the Lady Muriell daughter
to Sr Johne Dynham."
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne
and Trerice, AR/37/24 dated 20 Feb 140615
lost suit over right to bear the undifferenced arms of Hastings5 to
Reynold Grey, Lord Grey of Ruthin (q.v.)
in the Court of Chivalry 9 May 1410; refused to pay the costs of the
suit, and imprisoned ca. 1417 in the Marshalsea (apparently until his
death)1
his 1st wife Muriel d. before creation of Letter of Attorney, dated 1
Jul 5 Hen VI (1427):
' Edward lord Hastyngges et de Stotevile, Kt and Margeria his wife
appoint Robert Goldeman and Thomas Feltewell to receive from John
Spaldyng rector of the church of Gressenhale, Robert Edymon rector of
the church of Brysle and others seisin of manors of monnweden and
Sulyard in Cretyngham (Suff) and advowson of Monwedon (Suff). ' - A2A,
Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of Gressenhall [ MR 298 242 x
4 ]15
granted the manor of East Lexham to his father-in-law Sir Robert
Clifton, who in turn granted same to Edward Hastings and his [2nd]
wife Margery (Clifton), 10 March 1434/5:
' Conveyance by Sir Robert Clifton and Robert Edyman to
Edward, Lord of Hastings and of Stotvyle, and Margery his
wife, of the manor of East Lexham ' - A2A, Norfolk Record
Office: The Wodehouse Family of Kimberley [KIM 2C/14]
[see Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of
Gressenhall , MR 92 241 x 3 and MR 92 241 x 3 -
Feoffment of Edward
Hastings and wife 'Margeria' in Gressenhall, same
date]15
* his son John conveyed his lands in same in Feb 1434/5 (cf.
John Hastings)15
entered into an agreement of recognizance in the amount of £1,000 to
Reynold Grey, Lord of Ruthin as part of settlement of his debt in re:
the Court of Chivalry case, 20 Oct 1436 (and subsequently released
from the Marshalsea):
Charter Indented - Grant, 15 Dec 15 Hen VI [ 1436 ]:
' Sir Edward de Hastynges, Kt to Sir Reginald Grey, Kt lord of
Hastynges Wrysford and of Ruthyn and Sir John Grey de
Ruthyn, Kt.
Manors of Gressenale and Elsyng, lands and tenements belonging
in the same.' - A2A, Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of
Gressenhall [MR 94 241 x 3]15
Deed, 17 Dec 15 Hen VI [1436], Indented by Sir Reginald Grey lord de
Hastyng and others relating to lease of manor of Gressenhall.:
' Sir Edward de Hastynges, Kt to Sir Reginald Grey, Kt lord of
Hastynges Wrysford and of Ruthyn and Sir John Gret [recte: Grey]de
Ruthyn, Kt.
Manors of Gressenale and Elsyng, lands and tenements belonging in
the same. ' - A2A, Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of
Gressenhall [MR 95 241 x 3]15
Will of Sir EdwardHastynges, Kt. 4 July 15 Hen VI [1437] - A2A,
Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of Gressenhall [ MR 319, 319A
242 x 5 - Also two drafts]15
he m. 1stly Muriel Dinham,
2ndly Margery Clifton2
cf. CP VI:358-360, sub Hastings5
re: his 1st wife, Muriel Dinham:
'Meryell doughter to John Denham'[HSP 16:154-156, Vis. of Yorkshire:
pedigree of Hastynges10]
' Muriel Dinham ', wife of Sir Edward Hastings [Genealogics.org, #
I00135233 23]
identification as daughter of John, Lord Dinham and his first wife
Ellen by John Ravilious ('Re: Dinham/Courtenay Correction', Society of
Medieval Genealogy, www.rootsweb.com, 1 June 2001]24
definitive proof of her parentage is given in the pre-nuptial
settlement, dated 20 Feb 1405-06:
" Pre-nuptial settlement dated 7 Hen IV [20 Feb 1405/06] at
'Notewill', Devon, between
Edward Lord of Hastyngges (1) and
John de Dynham, knight (2):
" Agreement between (1) and (2), that (1) shall marry Muriel (2)'s
daughter, and shall enfeoff certain persons at their choice (a lour
dieux ellection) with certain lands and tenements, to the value of
100 marks yearly, in 'which Muriel shall be jointured (iungne)
during her life, and that she shall be dowered in lands and
tenements to the yearly value of 300 marks along with that
jointure. For the marriage and jointure, (2) shall pay to (1) 400
marks (100 marks on the day of the marriage, 100 marks the
following Michaelmas, and 100 marks yearly at Michaelmas
until fully paid), provided that she is so jointured; if not, the
payments shall not be made.
Seal [fine; of (1) presumably]. [18th century?] "This
indenture is in French and contains articles of mariage
between Sr Edward Hastings and the Lady Muriell daughter
to Sr Johne Dynham."
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne
and Trerice, AR/37/24 dated 20 Feb 140615,25,2
Spouse: Muriel Dinham3,10
Death: bef 1 Jul 142715
Father: Sir John Dinham (>1359-1428)
Mother: Eleanor de Montagu (-ca1394)
Marr: aft 20 Feb 140515,25,2
Children: John (<1411-1477)
Other Spouses Margery Clifton
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1 John Hastings10
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 6 Jan 14115
Death: 9 Apr 1477, Elsing, Norfolk3,5
Burial: Gressenhall Church, Norfolk5,26
Occ: Lord Hastings
esquire, of Gressenhall, Elsing, East Lexham and Weasenham, Norfok,
Fenwick, Norton and Moseley, co. Yorks., and Monewden, Suffolk *
'John Hastynges of Fenwyke nigh Ardesley. = Anne doughter to William
Lord Morley.' -[HSP 16:154-156, Vis. of Yorkshire: pedigree of
Hastynges10]
'John Hastings Esquier [ " of Fennwyck " ] = Anne d. to. ....
[William] Lord Morley ' [pedigree of Hastings of Fenwick, Surtees Vis.
North IV:4527]
9th Lord Hastings5
dispensation for his marriage to Anne Morley, under Papal mandate
dated 21 Apr 1434:
'Papal mandate to the Bishop of Norwich to grant a dispensation for
the
marriage of John Hastinges and Anne Morley, although they were related
in the
3rd-4th degree of consanguinity: xi kal. Maii 4 Eugenius IV [21 Apr.
1434].'
[ CP VI:360, sub Hastings, note f5]
Deed of Release, 28 Feb 13 Hen VI [ 1434/5 ]:
' John son of Edward Lord of Hastyngg' and de Stotvyle, Kt
to Sir Robert Clifton, Kt and Robert Edymon, clerk.
Manors of Gressenhale and Estlexham and property in other
counties.' - A2A, Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of
Gressenhall [ MR 90 241 x 3 ], [ MR 91 241 x 3 ]15
Indenture (release) dated 9 Feb 16 Hen VI (1437/38) :
'1) Margeria Lady Hastyngges.
2) Sir John Pelle, Sir William Normanton, clerks and Adam Levelord,
general attornies of John Hastyngges son of Edward late Lord Hastyngge
Manors of Munden Cretyngham Elsyng Gressenale and Estlexham. ' -
A2A, Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of
Gressenhall [ MR 96 241 x 3 ]15
' John Hastynges esquire ', acted as feoffee together with William de
la Pole, marquess of Suffolk (uncle of his wife Anne) and others in
transfer of the manors of Nansladron, Carmynowe, Kenell, Wynyanton and
Rynsy to John Arundell esquire, Elizabeth his wife and their heirs of
body, 1450 or before [ exemplification of a recovery by James Tyrell
knight and Ann Arundell his wife, demandants. 1480 (Easter term) and
1481, All Souls (20 and 21 Edw IV) - A2A, Cornwall Record Office:
Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/17 - AR/50], AR/17/7815]
Grantor of a charter dated 5 Apr 16 Edw IV [1476]:
' John Hastyngges of Elsyng, Esq son and heir of Lord Edward
Hastyngges Kt & Mirielle his wife daughter of Sir John Denham, Kt. to
John Heydon, Henry Suthyll, Richard Southwell, Henry Heydon, and Henry
Spelman.
Capital messuage called Lady Morley Place in parish of St Peter
Mamcroft, Norwich next the church of Blessed Mary in the Fields and a
water mill called le Gryn' alias Grynmylle in Northelmeham lands and
tenements belonging in the same and Byllyngford. ' - A2A, Norfolk
Record Office: Hastings Family of
Gressenhall [ MR 268 242 x 3 ]15
Constable of castle and gaol of Norwich, June 11, 1441; Sheriff of
Norfolk, 1474-14755
* land holdings per his Inquisition post mortem, 20 Sept - 4 Oct 1477
(CP, Hastings)5
Will of John Hastynges of Elsyng, squyer. 8 Apr. 1477 - A2A, Norfolk
Record Office: Hastings Family of Gressenhall [ MR 320 242 x 5 ]15
Anne doughter to William Lord Morley' [HSP 16:154-156, Vis. of
Yorkshire: pedigree of Hastynges10]
the will of her mother, Isabel, Lady Morley names her 'son John
Hastyng and her daughter Anne, wife of the said John', 3 May 1464. [CP
VI:360, sub Hastings]5
cf. CP VI:360, sub Hastings5
Spouse: Anne Morley
Death: 14715
Birth: aft 20 Mar 141719
Father: Thomas Morley (<1393-1435)
Mother: Isabel de la Pole (-1466)
Marr: aft 21 Apr 14345
Children: Muriel
Isabel, m. Sir Thomas Bosvile
Elizabeth, m. Sir Robert Hildyard
Sir Hugh (-1488)
Edmund
Robert
John
Charles
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1 Sir Hugh Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: 7 Jun 14881,21,26
Occ: Lord Hastings
knt., of Gressenhall, Elsing, East Lexham and Weasenham, Norfok,
Fenwick, Norton and Moseley, co. York,
'Hugh Hastynges son & heyr = Ales doughter to Sir William Gaskon of
Gawthorpe' -[HSP 16:154-156, Vis. of Yorkshire: pedigree of
Hastynges10]
' Sr Hugh Hastings = Anne d. to Sr Wm Gascoyn of Galthorp' [pedigree
of Hastings of Fenwick, Surtees Vis. North IV:4527]
10th Lord Hastings; supporter of King Richard III at least through 25
May 1484 5
party to, and grantee of, an indenture of 10 May 17 Edw IV [1477]:
' Charter Indented - date: 1477
John Duke of Suffolk William Grey Bishop of Ely John
Lord de Denham and others by assent and will of Sir Hugh
Hastynges Robert Hastyngges and Edmund Hastyngges
sons of John Hastyngges, Esq dec'd to aforesaid Edmund
Hastyngges' - A2A, Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family
of Gressenhall [ MR 301 242 x 5 ]15
also assented to grant to brother Robert, Charter Indented
Tripartite dated 29 Apr. 17 Ed IV ( 1477):
John. .. bishop of Ely John Lord Denham and others with assent
of Sir Hugh Hastyngges Kt Robert and Edmund Hastyngges sons
of John Hastyngges Esq dec'd to said Robert Hastyngges, Esq.
Manor of Monewedon (Suff).'
-A2A, Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of Gressenhall
[ MR 300 242 x 5 ]15
grant dated 12 May 21 Edw IV (1481):
' Sir Hugh Hastynges, Kt son and heir of John Hastynges, Esq to Henry
Heydon Richard Southwell John Davny and others.
Manors of Gressenhale Estlexham Elsyng and Wesenham, advowsons of
Churches of Gressenhale Elsyng Brysele Stanfeld and Chapel of St
Nicholas of Rougholme in Gressenhale. ' - A2A, Norfolk Record Office:
Hastings Family of
Gressenhall [ MR 103 241 x 4 ]15
' Hugh Hastynges, knyght ', will dated 20 June 1482 [Testamenta Ebor.
III:273-526; ref. also, A2A, Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of
Gressenhall [ MR 321 242 x 5 ]15. ]
Spouse: Anne Gascoigne
Father: William Gascoigne (-<1466)
Mother: Margaret Clarell
Marr: bef 12 Apr 14555
Children: Sir John, of Gressenhall and Elsing (dsp; fl.ca1467-1504)
Charles
Robert
Sir George, of Gressenhall and Elsing (ca1474-<1511)
Roger
Isabel
Muriel
Katherine
Elizabeth
Margaret
Anne
Sir Brian, of Fenwick (>1482->1542)
Margery
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1 Margaret Hastings
----------------------------------------
' Margaret wyff to John Grysacre. ' [HSP 16:156, Vis. of Yorkshire:
pedigree of Hastynges10]
the notes [Surtees Soc.] to the will of Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing
and Fenwick state,
' Another daughter, whom Mr. Hunter calls Margaret, was the wife of
John Cresacre esq. of Barnborough,.. ' [Testa. Ebor. III:27526, will
of his grandfather Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing]
' John Cresacre, 18 Edw. IV. = Margaret, dau. of sir Hugh Hastings, of
Fenwick. ' [Hunter, South Yorkshire I:37228, pedigree of Cresacre -
cites 'visitation of 1585, preserved in Harl. 6070']
cf. Testa. Ebor. III:27526
Spouse: John Cresacre of Barnborough, co. Yorks.
Father: John Cresacre
Mother: NN Wortley
Children: Edward (ca1484-)
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1 Edward Cresacre
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 148428
Bapt: 151228
Esq., of Barnborough, co. Yorks.
' Edward Cresacre, lord of Barnborough 24 Henry VII. died aged 27,
1512. = Jane, dau. of sir Richard Basset, of Fletborough, co. Notts.
' [Hunter, South Yorkshire I:37228, pedigree of Cresacre - cites
'visitation of 1585, preserved in Harl. 6070']
cf. Testa. Ebor. III:27526 (will of Sir Hugh Hastings)
DNB XXXVIII:44729 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
Spouse: Jane Basset
Children: Anne
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a Anne Cresacre*
----------------------------------------
wife of John More, son of the noted Sir Thomas More
record of a fine, 1573:
' Thomas Jackson and John Burnsall als. Clerk [plaintiffs]
Ann West, widow, daughter and heir of Edward Cresacre, esq., deceased,
and Thomas (sic) More, her eldest son and heir apparent, and Edward
More and Thomas (sic) More, her younger sons [deforciants]
Manors of Baronburgh als. Barmburgh als. Barmbrough als. Barnebrough
als. Barnburgh als. Barneburgh, near Doncaster, Mosseley in the Mosse,
and Tylts, and 140 messuages, 60 cottages, and 2 watermills with lands
in the same and in Baron-thorpe, Harlyngton, Bylham, Meixburgh, Bolton
upon Derne, Goldthorpe, Wombwell, Little Haughton, Derfeild, Langth-
wayte cum Tylts, Doncaster, Thorp, Barnby upon Donne, Austen,
Burghwallys, Campsall, Kyrkhousegreene, Braithwayte, Kyrk Bramwith,
Trumfleete, Kyrk Sandall, Balne, Wylmersley, Egburgh, Kellyngton, and
Snayth, and free fishing in the waters of the Derne, Donne, and Eyre.
' [Yorkshire Feet of Fines of the Tudor period30]
'BARNBROUGH, or BARMBROUGH (St. Peter), a parish, in the union of
Doncaster, N. division of the wapentake of Strafforth and Tickhill, W.
riding of York, 6¼ miles (W.) from Doncaster; containing, with
Harlington, 508 inhabitants. This place has long been in the
possession of the family of More; John More, only son and heir of Sir
Thomas, the celebrated chancellor of England, having obtained it by
marriage with Ann Cresacre, whose family had settled here in the reign
of Edward I. The parish is on the north side of the river Dearne, and
comprises about 1947 acres, of which 273 acres are common or waste;
the soil is mostly a strong fertile clay, resting on a substratum of
excellent lime and freestone. Barmbrough Hall, the former seat of the
Cresacres and Mores, is in a retired situation near the church; and
the Grange, which once belonged to the religious house of Nostel, and
has, since the Dissolution, been in succession the residence of
various families, stands in the meadows near the Dearne, not far from
the hamlet of Harlington. The village is situated in the vale. The
living is a rectory, valued in the king's books at £23, and in the
patronage of the Chapter of the Collegiate Church of Southwell: the
tithes have been commuted for £534, and there are 100 acres of glebe.
The church, built in the fourteenth century, is a neat structure with
a tower, and contains a highlywrought tomb to a member of the Cresacre
family. There is a place of worship for Wesleyans.'
[Institute of Historical Research, A Topographical Dictionary of
England (1848), 'Barnard Castle - Barnshaw', pp. 148-53]
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=50779&strquery=cresacre
cf. DNB XXXVIII:44729 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
Spouse: John More
Death: 154729
Father: Sir Thomas More (executed 1535)
Marr: 152929
Children: Thomas (1531-1606)
Edward
Thomas 'secundus'
Other Spouses George West
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1 Thomas More
----------------------------------------
Birth: 153129
Death: 160629
of More-Place [Gobions] in North Mimms, co. Herts. and Barnborough,
co. Yorks.
cf. DNB XXXVIII:44729 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
Spouse: Mary Scrope
Father: John Scrope
Marr: 155329
Children: John
Thomas (1565-1625)
Cresacre (1572-1649)
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.1 John More
----------------------------------------
cf. DNB XXXVIII:44729 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.2 Thomas More
----------------------------------------
Birth: 156529
Death: 162529
priest
cf. DNB XXXVIII:44729 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3 Cresacre More
----------------------------------------
Birth: 3 Jul 157229
Death: 26 Mar 164929
of More-Place [Gobions] in North Mimms, co. Herts. and Barnborough,
co. Yorks.
author of 'The Life of Sir Thomas More'29
cf. Genealogics #I0031550123
DNB XXXVIII:44829 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
Spouse: Elizabeth Gage
Death: 15 Jul 161829
Children: Helen (1606-1633)
Bridget (1609-1692)
Thomas
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.1 Helen More
----------------------------------------
Birth: 25 Mar 160629
Death: 18 Aug 163329
nun
cf. DNB XXXVIII:44829 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.2 Bridget More
----------------------------------------
Birth: 160929
Death: 11 Oct 169229
prioress of the English Benedictine nuns, Paris29
cf. DNB XXXVIII:44829 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.3 Thomas More
----------------------------------------
of More-Place [Gobions] in North Mimms, co. Herts. and Barnborough,
co. Yorks.
cf. DNB XXXVIII:44829 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
Spouse: Mary Brooke
Children: Basil (-1702)
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.3.1 Basil More
----------------------------------------
Death: 1702
of Barnborough, co. Yorks.
cf. DNB XXXVIII:44829 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
Children: Christopher Cresacre
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.3.1.1 Christopher Cresacre More
----------------------------------------
of Barnborough, co. Yorks.
cf. DNB XXXVIII:44829 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
Children: Mary
Thomas (-1739)
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.3.1.1.1 Thomas More
----------------------------------------
Death: 173929
of Barnborough, co. Yorks.
cf. ' The Family of Metcalfe of Glandford Brigg'. Lincolnshire
Notes & Queries (1889) I:200-20331
DNB XXXVIII:44829 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
Spouse: Catherine Giffard
Children: Thomas (1722-1795)
Mary Augustina (-1807)
Bridget (-1797)
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.3.1.1.1.1 Thomas More
----------------------------------------
Birth: 172229
Death: 20 May 1795, Bath, England29
Jesuit priest29
cf. DNB XXXVIII:44829 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.3.1.1.1.2 Mary Augustina More
----------------------------------------
Death: 180729
prioress of the English priory of canonesses of St. Augustine, Bruges
cf. DNB XXXVIII:44829 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.3.1.1.1.3a Bridget More*
----------------------------------------
Death: 7 May 179731
she m. 1stly Peter Metcalfe,
2ndly Robert Dalton of Thurnham, Lancs.
cf. ' The Family of Metcalfe of Glandford Brigg'. Lincolnshire
Notes & Queries (1889) I:200-20331
'The Daltons of Thurnham', Trans. Historic Soc. Lancashire and
Cheshire (New Series), VI:11332
DNB XXXVIII:44829 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
Burke's Landed Gentry I:41333
Burke's Landed Gentry (1862) I:332, Dalton of Thurnham34
Spouse: Peter Metcalfe [1st husband]
Death: Aug 1757, Brigg31
Children: Thomas Peter (-1793)
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.3.1.1.1.3b Bridget More* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Robert Dalton [2nd husband]
Death: 178532
Father: John Dalton
Marr: 1 Nov 175931
Children: William
Bridget-Anne More
Constance
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.3.1.1.1.3b.1 Bridget-Anne More Dalton
----------------------------------------
'The Daltons of Thurnham', Trans. Historic Soc. Lancashire and
Cheshire (New Series), VI:11332
cf. ' The Family of Metcalfe of Glandford Brigg'. Lincolnshire
Notes & Queries (1889) I:200-20331
Spouse: Sir James Trant FitzGerald
Children: Sir James (-1839)
Maria
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.3.1.1.1.3b.1.1 Sir James FitzGerald
----------------------------------------
Death: 28 Sep 1839, Chalons sur Saone, France
of Wolseley-hall, co. Stafford, and Castle Ishen, co. Cork
7th Baronet
record of the obituary of Sir James FitzGerald, who d. 28 Sept 1839:
' Sept. 28. At Chalons sur Saone, on his way to Nice, Sir James
FitzGerald, of Wolseley-hall, co. Stafford, and Castle Ishen, co.
Cork, the seventh Baronet (1644). He was the son and heir of Sir
James FitzGerald, by Bridget-Anne, daughter of Robert Dalton, of
Thornham hall, co. Lancaster, esq. He married, Sept. 27, 1826,
Augusta, second daughter of the late Vice-Adm. Sir Thomas Francis
Fremantle, K.C.B., and sister to the present Sir Thomas Fremantle,
Bt., who survives him: and he is succeeded by a son. '
Spouse: Augusta Fremantle
Marr: 27 Sep 1826
Children: Sir James (-1867)
Gerald Richard (-1894)
1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1.1a.1.3.3.1.1.1.3b.1.1.1 Sir James Dalton-
FitzGerald
----------------------------------------
Death: 1867, d.s.p.35
of Wolseley-hall, co. Stafford, and Castle Ishen, co. Cork
8th Baronet
succeeded his cousin, Elizabeth Dalton, in the lands of Thurnham on
her death in 186134
cf. VCH Lancaster, VIII:101-10535
Burke's Landed Gentry (1862) I:332, Dalton of Thurnham34
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October, 2002, DEEDS OF TITLE AND COGNATE PAPERS, Nottinghamshire, DD/
4P/22/250 - re: Aldeby and minority, William de Morley (1 March
1339/40), Girlington: from Warwickshire County Record Office: Mordaunt
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knt.), Hastings: from Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of
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GRESSENHALL and HUNSTANTON).
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20. "Calendarium Inquisitionum Post Mortem sive Escaetarum," printed
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GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
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AR/37/24.
26. "Testamenta Eboracensia [A Selection of Wills from the Registry
at York]," The Surtees Society, Vol. XLV, Andrews & Co., Durham, Vol.
III (1865), pp. 237-8, will of Walter Froste, Esq. of Beverley, pp.
273 et seq., will of Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing (d. 1488), p. 362-3,
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Co.,, 1932.
28. Rev. Joseph Hunter, "South Yorkshire: the History and Topography
of the Deanery of Doncaster, in the Diocese and County of York," Vol.
II:, London: Printed for the Author, by J. B. Nichols and Son, 1831.
29. "Sir Thomas More [article]," Dictionary of National Biography, New
York: MacMillan and Co. (London: Smith, Elder & Co.), Vol. XXXVIII
(1894), p. 447.
30. " 'Yorkshire Fines: 1573', Feet of Fines of the Tudor period
[Yorks]: part 2: 1571-83," (1888), pp. 26-42, online available,
courtesy British History Online, URL http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=49652.
31. Everard Green, K.S.S., F.S.A., "' The Family of Metcalfe of
Glandford Brigg'," Ernest L. Grange and Rev. J. Clare Hudson, eds.,
Lincolnshire Notes & Queries, Horncastle: W. K. Morton, Vol. I
(January 1, 1888 to October 1, 1889), 1889, ' The Family of Metcalfe
of Glandford Brigg', pp. 200-203, courtesy Google books.
32. William Oliver Roper, "The Daltons of Thurnham," Transactions of
the Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire, New Series, Vol. VI
(For the Year 1890 - Volume XLII), Liverpool: printed for the Society,
1892, pp. 97-124, courtesy Google books.
33. Sir Bernard Burke, Ulster King of Arms, "A Genealogical and
Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain and
Ireland," London: Harrison, Pal Mall, 1875 [5th ed. - Vol. I],
courtesy Googlebooks.
34. Sir Bernard Burke, Ulster King of Arms, "A Genealogical and
Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain and
Ireland," London: Harrison, Pal Mall, 1862 [4th ed. - Part I],
courtesy Googlebooks.
35. "A History of the County of Lancaster," 'Townships: Thurnham',
Oxford: published for the Institute of Historical Research, Oxford
Univ. Press, 1914, Vol. VIII, pp. 101-05, http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=53275,
courtesy University of London and History of Parliament Trust.
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
D. Spencer Hines
Are you saying Sir Thomas Moore has no descendants in America?
DSH
<marw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eb334038-ec6a-479b...@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
marw...@hotmail.com
> So, Bottom Line...
>
> Are you sayingSirThomasMoore has nodescendantsin America?
>
> DSH
>
>
> news:eb334038-ec6a-479b...@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >I note that a number of people on genealogy sites like RootsWeb and
> > Ancestry.com claim that John Moore of Elizabeth city county was the
> > her husband Edward Moore.
> > MaryMoreis sometimes said to be "of Barnborough" (or variant
> > spellings), Yorkshire, England,.
> > Edward is said to be "of" various places, including Barnborough,
> > Bampton, Oxford, Reading, London, Berkshire, Shropshire, and Ireland.
> > I would point out to those who want to maintin the myth/fantasy, that
> > THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE FOR THIS.
>
> > marriage to Edward Moore and to their children:
> > anyone until I first posted it on RootsWeb a few years ago - and many
> > have since copied it onto their sites.
> > Mary was born at Hambleden, Buckinghamshire (not Barnborough,
> > Yorkshire) where her parents were living after their marriage in early
> > 1553.
>
> > Edward Moore's birth date is not recorded and any dates given are just
> > guesses - not good genealogy.
> > The family were Catholic and the baptisms of their children were not
> > recorded in the Church of England Parish Register. He was the son of
> > Oxfordshire), and his wife Dorothy Mordaunt.
> > The only thing known about Edward's early life was that he was a minor
> > (but not an infant) when his father made his will in 1561.
>
> > After their marriage, most probably in 1585 (Edward was a convicted
> > recusant in various London prisons for some years before that), Mary
> > their small estate at Low Leyton in Essex. THis is attested by
> > recusant records. Some people record their children as born at
> > Bampton, which is nonsense!
>
> > Edward died intestate in 1605 and Mary (then living with one of her
> > married daughters at Stondon Massey, Essex) in 1630. Again, this was
> > not known until I posted it.
>
> > There is incontrovertible evidence in the form of personal statements,
> > that Edward and Mary DID NOT HAVE A SON JOHN (or, as some also say, a
> > daughter Mary Jane). In spite of this, some still insist on
> > perpetuating the myth/fantasy.
>
> > became Jesuit Priests. They also had five daughters: Isabel, Joan,
> > Frances, Grace and Anne. Of these Joan, Grace and Anne became
> > Benedictine Nuns.
>
> > My information is based on the family pedigree, on family papers, on a
>
> - Show quoted text -
DSH,
My interest is in the line from John More, son of Sir Thomas.
I am here only saying that John Moore of Elizabeth city was not
descended from Sir Thomas More.
I have seen claims that Thomas More, born 1538, had descendants who
went to America, but this is a claim that was first made by Joseph
Foster in 1874, in his Pedigree of More of Barnborough Hall. It does
not appear in any of the earlier pedigrees of the family and no one,
so far, has been able to offer me any documentary evidence to
substantiate their claim of descent via this line.
MW
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
<marw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:df3f7f5c-53b9-499e...@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 22, 5:17 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>> So, Bottom Line...
>>
>> Are you sayingSirThomasMoore has nodescendantsin America?
>>
>> DSH
> DSH,
marw...@hotmail.com
> On Nov 22, 9:32 am, marwd_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I note that a number of people on genealogy sites like RootsWeb and
> > Ancestry.com claim that John Moore of Elizabeth city county was the
> > her husband Edward Moore.
> > MaryMoreis sometimes said to be "of Barnborough" (or variant
> > spellings), Yorkshire, England,.
> > Edward is said to be "of" various places, including Barnborough,
> > Bampton, Oxford, Reading, London, Berkshire, Shropshire, and Ireland.
> > I would point out to those who want to maintin the myth/fantasy, that
> > THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE FOR THIS.
>
> > marriage to Edward Moore and to their children:
> > anyone until I first posted it on RootsWeb a few years ago - and many
> > have since copied it onto their sites.
> > Mary was born at Hambleden, Buckinghamshire (not Barnborough,
> > Yorkshire) where her parents were living after their marriage in early
> > 1553.
>
> > Edward Moore's birth date is not recorded and any dates given are just
> > guesses - not good genealogy.
> > The family were Catholic and the baptisms of their children were not
> > recorded in the Church of England Parish Register. He was the son of
> > Oxfordshire), and his wife Dorothy Mordaunt.
> > The only thing known about Edward's early life was that he was a minor
> > (but not an infant) when his father made his will in 1561.
>
> > After their marriage, most probably in 1585 (Edward was a convicted
> > recusant in various London prisons for some years before that), Mary
> > their small estate at Low Leyton in Essex. THis is attested by
> > recusant records. Some people record their children as born at
> > Bampton, which is nonsense!
>
> > Edward died intestate in 1605 and Mary (then living with one of her
> > married daughters at Stondon Massey, Essex) in 1630. Again, this was
> > not known until I posted it.
>
> > There is incontrovertible evidence in the form of personal statements,
> > that Edward and Mary DID NOT HAVE A SON JOHN (or, as some also say, a
> > daughter Mary Jane). In spite of this, some still insist on
> > perpetuating the myth/fantasy.
>
> > became Jesuit Priests. They also had five daughters: Isabel, Joan,
> > Frances, Grace and Anne. Of these Joan, Grace and Anne became
> > Benedictine Nuns.
>
> > My information is based on the family pedigree, on family papers, on a
> Dorothy was the daughter of John Lord Mordaunt of Turvey, Beds and
> Elizabeth Vere
>
> Lord Mordaunt's grandmother was Margaret Pecke, daughter of John Pecke
> of Cople Beds, but there is no known connection to either the Peckes
> of Beccles or the probably unconnected Peckes of Wakefield
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
David,
The Victoria County History of Oxfordshire tells of the Moore/More
estate at Haddon, Oxfordshire and gives some history of the family.
Unfortunately the village of Haddon in Oxfordshire no longer exists.
There is a village of Haddon in Cambridgeshire with which it has
sometimes been confused.
The Visitations of the County of Oxford, 1566 & 1574, record Thomas
More as the second son of John More of Haddon, in the county of Oxford
(it is all written in Latin).
Thomas Married Dorothy, daughter of John Lord Mordaunt of Turvey. They
had eleven children. The youngest was Edward who married Mary,
daughter of Thomas More anbd Mary Scrope.
Martin Wood
marw...@hotmail.com
> marwd_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > I note that a number of people on genealogy sites like RootsWeb and
> > Ancestry.com claim that John Moore of Elizabeth city county was the
> > her husband Edward Moore.
> > MaryMoreis sometimes said to be "of Barnborough" (or variant
> > spellings), Yorkshire, England,.
>
> StThomasMore'sson, JohnMore(by his first wife Jane Colte) was
> considered "little better than an idiot" by Wood, according to StThomasMore'sbiographer, Roper. In 1529, JohnMoremarried Ann Cresacre
> (1511-1577), the heiress of Edward Cresacre of Barnborough, Yorkshire.
>
> of Hambledon, Buckinghamshire in 1553, and a niece of Lord Scrope of
> Bolton. He left 8 daughters and 5 sons, the eldest being John, who died
> young. His will was proved in 1606. The second son wasThomas
> his brother's property at Barnborough and North Mimms. (These children
> are outlined in the Dictionary of National Biography at the end of the
>
> ThisThomasMore(b 1531) had three brothers, two of whom left children.
> One of them was also calledThomas, born in 1538, who leftdescendants,
> but the family was in poverty, and have not been traced.
>
> entry in the Dictionary of National Biography. He wrote a treatise
> called "The Defence of Women", the dedication of which was made at
> Hambledon, Buckinghamshire, on 20th July, 1557, the seat of John Scrope.
> He was buried at Barnborough, Yorkshire, on 2 May, 1620, leaving two
> Jesuit sons, Henry andThomas.
>
> National Biography, which includes material on his brother,Thomas
> (1587-1623/4). Being Jesuit priests, they left no children.
>
>
>
> > Edward is said to be "of" various places, including Barnborough,
> > Bampton, Oxford, Reading, London, Berkshire, Shropshire, and Ireland.
> > I would point out to those who want to maintin the myth/fantasy, that
> > THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE FOR THIS.
>
> > marriage to Edward Moore and to their children:
> > anyone until I first posted it on RootsWeb a few years ago - and many
> > have since copied it onto their sites.
> > Mary was born at Hambleden, Buckinghamshire (not Barnborough,
> > Yorkshire) where her parents were living after their marriage in early
> > 1553.
>
> > Edward Moore's birth date is not recorded and any dates given are just
> > guesses - not good genealogy.
> > The family were Catholic and the baptisms of their children were not
> > recorded in the Church of England Parish Register. He was the son of
> > Oxfordshire), and his wife Dorothy Mordaunt.
> > The only thing known about Edward's early life was that he was a minor
> > (but not an infant) when his father made his will in 1561.
>
> > After their marriage, most probably in 1585 (Edward was a convicted
> > recusant in various London prisons for some years before that), Mary
> > their small estate at Low Leyton in Essex. THis is attested by
> > recusant records. Some people record their children as born at
> > Bampton, which is nonsense!
>
> > Edward died intestate in 1605 and Mary (then living with one of her
> > married daughters at Stondon Massey, Essex) in 1630. Again, this was
> > not known until I posted it.
>
> > There is incontrovertible evidence in the form of personal statements,
> > that Edward and Mary DID NOT HAVE A SON JOHN (or, as some also say, a
> > daughter Mary Jane). In spite of this, some still insist on
> > perpetuating the myth/fantasy.
>
> > became Jesuit Priests. They also had five daughters: Isabel, Joan,
> > Frances, Grace and Anne. Of these Joan, Grace and Anne became
> > Benedictine Nuns.
>
> > My information is based on the family pedigree, on family papers, on a
>
> - Show quoted text -
Re the above statement: "The other brother who left children, was
Edward More. He has his own entry in the Dictionary of National
Biography. He wrote a treatise
called "The Defence of Women", the dedication of which was made at
Hambledon, Buckinghamshire, on 20th July, 1557, the seat of John
Scrope.
He was buried at Barnborough, Yorkshire, on 2 May, 1620, leaving two
Jesuit sons, Henry and Thomas."
I am afraid the DNB hasn't taken account of subsequent family
research. This has shown that the two Jesuits, Henry and Thomas More,
that you mention were not the sons of Edward More (1535-1620), the son
of John More and Anne Cresacre. They were the sons of Mary More
(daughter of Thomas More and Mary Scrope) and her husband Edward More/
Moore of Haddon, Oxfordshire. Henry's dates are 1586-1661 and Henry's
are 1566-1597.
Re Thomas More (1531-1606), son of John More and Anne Cresacre:
He had six brothers and one sister.
MW
Renia
I haven't got DNB open at the mo, but there were two Henry Mores of
similar age, and DNB warns us not to confuse them. The other was the son
of Thomas More and Mary Scrope.
wjhonson
Martin can you cite your *exact* source so that we can verify what it
says?
Thanks
Will Johnson
wjhonson
It states that he is the great-grandson of Sir Thomas More
and states he "should not be confused with his COUSIN Henry (b 1567),
son of Thomas More and Mary Scrope"
The four sons of Thomas More and Mary Scrope would therefore appear to
be
John, Thomas, Henry and Cresacre in that order.
It would help if we could find the work that Cresacre wrote, hopefully
in Google Books, as it apparently discusses several members of the
family.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
Renia I believe, stated above that the eldest son of Thomas More and
Mary Scrope, John More "died young". Rather this should say only
"d.v.p." as he wasn't young. It was his misfortune that his father
Thomas lived to be 75, John died apparently aged 41 or 42.
Thomas More, his next brother inherited the estates, but he apparently
after having married and had issue, decided to give over his
"patrimony" as it's called to *his* next brother. This Thomas More
was baptised 6 Jul 1565 and died 11 Apr 1625 aged 59 at Rome where he
has an epitaph.
Will Johnson
al...@mindspring.com
Hi Will, Renia and others,
See Cresacre More's work (The Life of Sir Thomas More) at
http://books.google.com/books?id=eGqYcgB7d5IC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Cresacre+More+Sir+Thomas#PPA365,M1.
Particularly pps 361-364.
I did not see a resolution to the question at hand in a quick scan.
Doug Smith
wjhonson
I mispoke above when I stated as a FACT that Thomas More the priest
who died *on* 11 Apr 1625 "aged 59" was baptised *on* 7 Jul 1566.
The mistatement regards the day he was baptised. For two hundred
years, editor of the Life of Thomas More has mistakingly believed that
author was this Thomas More the priest. When in fact the person is
now known to be Cresacre More (oops I didn't capitalize FACT !)
So that, previously abstracts from this work has then used it to state
that Thomas More the priest was baptised on 7 Jul *because* the
anonymous author states that he was baptised on the very same day, but
many years later, that Thomas More the martyr was executed.
Since we now know that the author was Cresacre, we now must revert the
*date* on which Thomas More the priest was baptised to simply be 1566
(unless someone has the register at hand), while specifying the *date*
on which Cresacre More was baptised to now be 7 Jul 1572.
SECONDLY, in this thread no one has yet (afaik) mentioned the
Visitation of Yorkshire 1563-4 "MORE" where the six eldest (surviving)
children are given contemporaneously obviously as : "John, Anne,
Margaret, Mary, Jane and Magdalene"
It seems slightly doubtful to me that Mary listed *third* in the
daughters would be the eldest and yet it's been stated here that
Thomas More and Mary Scrope were married in 1553 and that Mary was
baptised at the end of that same year.
One of these things must be wrong. The baptisms at Barnborough only
*commence* in 1557, that is the register for anyone commences then.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
In the above you state as a FACT that John More the eldest son of
Thomas More, esq (1531-1606) by his wife Mary Scrope (1534-1607) died
*in* 1599. But you overreach.
The facts of the matter are that this John was living in 1593 and was
dead by 1599. We cannot say MORE than this about him at this point.
Will Johnson
al...@mindspring.com
Cresacre More does provide a number of dates, see pps 362-368. I
could not see a resolution as to which Edward married Mary More.
However, if she married Edward More (d. 1605) of Haddon there would
not have been the issue of her marrying her uncle Edward (1535-1620).
The two Jesuit priests would then be great-great grandsons of Sir
Thomas rather than great-grandsons. IT would appear that some primary
references will be necessary to sort this out.
Doug Smith
marw...@hotmail.com
> There is a DNB entry for Henry Moore 1586-1661
> It states that he is the great-grandson ofSirThomasMore
> and states he "should not be confused with his COUSIN Henry (b 1567),
>
> The four sons ofThomasMoreand Mary Scrope would therefore appear to
> be
> John,Thomas, Henry and Cresacre in that order.
>
> It would help if we could find the work that Cresacre wrote, hopefully
> in Google Books, as it apparently discusses several members of the
> family.
>
> Will Johnson
The four sons of Thomas More and Mary Scrope were: John (1557-1599) -
unmarried; Thomas (1565-1625) - a Secular Priest; Henry (1566-1597) -
joined the Order of St. Francis de Paul, or Minims; Cresacre
(1572-1649).
marw...@hotmail.com
> Will thank you for your excellent post, much appreciated.
>
> Renia I believe, stated above that the eldest son ofThomasMoreand
> "d.v.p." as he wasn't young. It was his misfortune that his fatherThomaslived to be 75, John died apparently aged 41 or 42.
>
> ThomasMore, his next brother inherited the estates, but he apparently
> after having married and had issue, decided to give over his
> "patrimony" as it's called to *his* next brother. ThisThomasMore
> was baptised 6 Jul 1565 and died 11 Apr 1625 aged 59 at Rome where he
> has an epitaph.
>
> Will Johnson
The Thomas More (born 1565; died Rome 1625) gave up his patrimony to
his brother Cresacre, not because he married and had issue, but
because he was a priest.
marw...@hotmail.com
> Thank you Doug (Smith) for your excellent post, much appreciated.
>
> who died *on* 11 Apr 1625 "aged 59" was baptised *on* 7 Jul 1566.
>
> The mistatement regards the day he was baptised. For two hundred
> author was thisThomasMorethe priest. When in fact the person is
> now known to be CresacreMore(oops I didn't capitalize FACT !)
>
> So that, previously abstracts from this work has then used it to state
> anonymous author states that he was baptised on the very same day, but
>
> Since we now know that the author was Cresacre, we now must revert the
> (unless someone has the register at hand), while specifying the *date*
>
> SECONDLY, in this thread no one has yet (afaik) mentioned the
> Visitation of Yorkshire 1563-4 "MORE" where the six eldest (surviving)
> children are given contemporaneously obviously as : "John, Anne,
> Margaret, Mary, Jane and Magdalene"
>
> It seems slightly doubtful to me that Mary listed *third* in the
> baptised at the end of that same year.
>
> One of these things must be wrong. The baptisms at Barnborough only
> *commence* in 1557, that is the register for anyone commences then.
>
> Will Johnson
Will,
The three eldest children of Thomas More and Mary Scrope were:
Mary, born 25 December 1553
Anne, born 10 April 1555.
Margaret, born 1556.
The births of Mary and Anne took place at Hambleden, Buckinghamshire,
the family home of Mary, where she and Thomas were lived for a while
after their marriage. The event is recorded on a page in the family's
'Book of Hours'.
The birth of Margaret in 1556 is recorded in the family pedigrees. As
you say the surviving Barnborough (now Barnburgh) register starts with
the baptism of John on 6 September 1557.
MW
Renia
What are your sources for this?
The Dictionary of National Biography says of Henry More (1586-1661):
jesuit, was son of Edward More [see under More, Edward, 1479-1541], and
great-grandson of Sir Thomas More [q.v.] lord Chancellor of England. He
must not be confused with his cousin, Henry More (b 1567), who was son
of Thomas More and Mary Scrope (cf. Hunter's Preface to Cresacre More's
_Life of Sir T. More.)
His brother, Thomas More (1587-1623?) died in Ghent, not Rome. He did
not join the Order of St Frances De Paul, according to his entry in DNB.
He was arrested and banished to Flanders in about 1618.
Thus, we are talking of two sets of jesuit priest brothers called Thomas
and Henry.
DNB's list of sources for the above brothers, Henry and Thomas More
(sons of Edward):
De Backer's Bibl. de la Compagnie de Jesus, ii 376
Dodd's Church Hist, iii 120
Foley's Records, ii 416-28, v 702, v 618
Cresacre More's Life of Sir T. More, ed Hunter, 1828, Pref p. liii
Oliver's Jesuit Collections, p 143
Southwell's Bibl. Scriptorum Soc. Jesu, p 329
Alegambe's Bibliotecca Scriptt. Soc. Jesu, pp 329-30, 764
and it adds:
Woods notices of the More family in the Athenae are very inaccurate
DNB says of Thomas More and Mary Scrope [at the end of the section on
Sir Thomas More:
Of the elder Thomas's children - eight daughters and five sons - the
eldest, John, who figures in the Cookthorpe picture, died young. The
second, Thomas (1565-1625), took orders in the English college at Rome,
was Chaplain to Magdalene, Lady Montacute (d 1608), and laboured later
in Rome and Spain in behalf of the English Catholic clergy (Dodd, Church
History, Wood 'Athenae'). To his fourth brother, Cresacre, Thomas the
pries resigned the property both at Barnborough and North Mimms.
DNB says of Cresacre More:
He married a daughter of Thomas Gage, a descendant of Sir John Gage
[q.v.]; she died on 15 July 1618. Cresacre had a son Thomas (d 1660),
and two daughters, Helen (changed her named to Gertrude More and became
a nun) and Bridget.
al...@mindspring.com
> The Dictionary of National Biography says of Henry More (1586-1661):
> jesuit, was son of Edward More [see under More, Edward, 1479-1541], and
> great-grandson of Sir Thomas More [q.v.] lord Chancellor of England. He
> must not be confused with his cousin, Henry More (b 1567), who was son
> of Thomas More and Mary Scrope (cf. Hunter's Preface to Cresacre More's
> _Life of Sir T. More.)
How can an Edward who died in 1541 have a son born in 1586? Does the
section on Edward More, 1479-1541 have information on a number of
Edwards? Those dates look more likely for Sir Thomas More's brother
Edward.
Doug Smith
Also, according to Cresacre More,
Thomas More and Mary le Scrope had 8 daughters and five sons. The
missing son appears to be Gratian b. abt 1568.
al...@mindspring.com
wrote:
PS. Foster reads the Gratian as a daughter Grace.
ds
al...@mindspring.com
Foster in his preface says the Henry who wrote the ecclesiastical
works was the one born in 1586 not the one b abt 1567 and that Dodd
confused them when he called the first Henry the great grandson of Sir
Thomas More. Might DNB not be continuing Dodd's error? As I
understand it, the Henry b. 1586 would be the great great grandson of
Sir Thomas More.
Doug Smith
Renia
> Renia, John, Will, Martin, et al.
>
>
>>The Dictionary of National Biography says of Henry More (1586-1661):
>>jesuit, was son of Edward More [see under More, Edward, 1479-1541], and
>>great-grandson of Sir Thomas More [q.v.] lord Chancellor of England. He
>>must not be confused with his cousin, Henry More (b 1567), who was son
>>of Thomas More and Mary Scrope (cf. Hunter's Preface to Cresacre More's
>>_Life of Sir T. More.)
>
>
> How can an Edward who died in 1541 have a son born in 1586? Does the
> section on Edward More, 1479-1541 have information on a number of
> Edwards? Those dates look more likely for Sir Thomas More's brother
> Edward.
Well spotted. The entry for Edward More (1479-1541) includes this entry:
Q
Another Edward More (1537?-1620), born about 1537, was third son (by his
wife Anne Cresacre) of John More, the only son of Sir Thomas More
[q.v.]. He wrote . . . a treatise . . . called The Defence of Women . .
. More describes himself at the time [1557] as twenty years old . . .
Cresacre More, a nephew of Edward More, wrote of his uncle about 1600
that he was 'endowed with excellent gifts of nature' . . . He was buried
at Barnborough, Yorkshire on 2nd May 1620. His sons, Henry and Thomas,
te jesuits, are noticed under Henry More (1586-1661).
UNQ
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/23/2007 1:55:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
re...@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
DNB says of Cresacre More:
He married a daughter of Thomas Gage, a descendant of Sir John Gage
[q.v.]; she died on 15 July 1618. Cresacre had a son Thomas (d 1660),
and two daughters, Helen (changed her named to Gertrude More and became
a nun) and Bridget.
----------------
Yes by the way, Bridget also became a nun. One of them, I forget actually
became rather high-up like a prioress of something of the sort. The line goes
forward about another 4 generations, I was tracing them yesterday, if anyone
is interested I will give more details.
As to Miss Gage, I had already had two daughters, unmarried in their uncle's
will, and then the other day I found that someone calls her Elizabeth Gage.
So if correct that would decide which of the two he married. If you want
the source I'll forward it when I get to my office.
Will Johnson
**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
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marw...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Foster in his preface says the Henry who wrote the ecclesiastical
> works was the one born in 1586 not the one b abt 1567 and that Dodd
> understand it, the Henry b. 1586 would be the great great grandson ofSirThomasMore.
>
> Doug Smith
Doug,
I believe that the DNB entry is wrong. The sources it uses do not take
account of extensive More family research in England in the 1960s and
1970s, and certainly not of my research carried out over the last ten
years while writing a book on Sir/Saint Thomas More's family and
descendants - due to be published next April. I live in England and
Thomas More is, on my mothers side, my 14x great grandfather on a line
of descent from his son John down to a son of Basil More (c.
1638-1702).
Eminent family genealogists in England have, for over 30 years,
accepted that the Jesuits Henry More (1586-1661) and Thomas More
(1587-1623) were the sons of Mary More (daughter of Thomas More II and
Mary Scrope) and her husband Edward Moore/More of Haddon, Oxfordshire.
As you rightly suggest, they were therefore the great-great
grandchildren of Sir/Saint Thomas More.
Re the deaths of these two: Henry died at the Jesuit House at Watten
on 8 December 1661. Thomas died (probably of Cholera) at Ghent on 2
January 1623.
The other Thomas and Henry were the sons of Thomas More II and Mary
Scrope, and therefore the great-grandchildren of Sir/Saint Thomas
More.
Thomas More (1565-1625) became a Secular Priest. He died at Rome on 11
April 1625. Henry More (1566-1597) joined the Society of St. Frances
de Paul, or Minims - a strict order of Friars. He died at Nigeon, near
Paris, at Whitsuntide in 1597.
Martin Wood
marw...@hotmail.com
> In a message dated 11/23/2007 1:55:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
>
> re...@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
>
> DNB says of CresacreMore:
> [q.v.]; she died on 15 July 1618. Cresacre had a sonThomas(d 1660),
> and two daughters, Helen (changed her named to GertrudeMoreand became
> a nun) and Bridget.
>
> ----------------
> Yes by the way, Bridget also became a nun. One of them, I forget actually
> became rather high-up like a prioress of something of the sort. The line goes
> forward about another 4 generations, I was tracing them yesterday, if anyone
> is interested I will givemoredetails.
>
> As to Miss Gage, I had already had two daughters, unmarried in their uncle's
> will, and then the other day I found that someone calls her Elizabeth Gage.
> So if correct that would decide which of the two he married. If you want
> the source I'll forward it when I get to my office.
>
> Will Johnson
>
> **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
> products.
> (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
Anyone with information about More family research in England over the
last 40 years will know that there is no mystery about any of this.
Elizabeth Gage (who married Cresacre More) was the daughter of Thomas
Gage of Firle Place, Sussex (third son of Sir Edward Gage of Firle)
and his wife Elizabeth Guldeford. Elizabeth was born on 24 August
1585. She died on 15 July 1610, not 1618 (an often copied mistake).
There is a portrait of Cresacre More painted in 1610 which shows him
dressed in mourning following her death.
Martin Wood
marw...@hotmail.com
> Thank you Will for your excellent post, much appreciated.
>
> *in* 1599. But you overreach.
>
> The facts of the matter are that this John was living in 1593 and was
>
> Will Johnson
John More III (b.1557) - eldest son of Thomas More II and Mary Scrope
- spent time in the Gatehouse Prison from 1581-1583, after returning
to England. After his release he was 'presented' for recusancy with
other members of his family at various Courts in Essex until 1599.
These presentments would have continued were John to have been still
alive. Since the family estates were inherited by his younger brother
Cresacre around this time it is generally accepted that John died
1599.
Martin Wood
wjhonson
> The four sons of Thomas More and Mary Scrope were: John (1557-1599) -
> unmarried; Thomas (1565-1625) - a Secular Priest; Henry (1566-1597) -
> joined the Order of St. Francis de Paul, or Minims; Cresacre
> (1572-1649).
These dates, by the way, need to be adjusted slightly.
Thomas More who became a priest, we do *not* know when, we only have a
rather oblique reference to him having been "active for twenty years",
which isn't very helpful in my opinion. At any rate, he was baptised
on 13 Jan 1565/6 at Barnborough, which by the way, accords nicely to
his epitaph describing him as "aetatis 59" since he died 11 Apr 1625
and is buried in St Lewis, Rome.
Henry More was baptised on 15 Mar 1567 also at Barnborough, as far as
I know we do not know when he died, except that he survived to "man's
estate"
Will Johnson
mark_...@hotmail.com
I look forward to reading your book. Have you looked into Cresacre
More's claim that Sir Thomas's mother was a daughter of one "Handcombe
of Holliwell in Bedfordshire"? The consensus seems to be that his
mother was, in fact, Agnes, daughter of Thomas Graunger, of London. Do
you know whether there is solid evidence either way? My great-
grandfather looked at this briefly in his history of the Hanscomb(e)/
Hanscom family [CE Hanscomb, Common Blood, Queen Anne Press, 1967]. He
accepted that More's mother was probably Agnes, but wondered whether
there was some other connection to the Hanscombes of Holwell.
Best,
Mark Bridge
On Nov 23, 8:02 pm, marwd_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 23, 1:14 pm, "al...@mindspring.com" <al...@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all
>
> > Foster in his preface says the Henry who wrote the ecclesiastical
> > works was the one born in 1586 not the one b abt 1567 and that Dodd
> > confused them when he called the first Henry the great grandson ofSirThomasMore. Might DNB not be continuing Dodd's error? As I
> > understand it, the Henry b. 1586 would be the great great grandson ofSirThomasMore.
>
> > Doug Smith
>
> Doug,
> I believe that the DNB entry is wrong. The sources it uses do not take
> account of extensiveMorefamily research inEnglandin the 1960s and
> 1970s, and certainly not of my research carried out over the last ten
> years while writing abookon Sir/SaintThomasMore'sfamily and
> descendants - due to be published next April. I live inEnglandandThomasMoreis, on my mothers side, my 14x great grandfather on a line
> of descent from his son John down to a son of BasilMore(c.
> 1638-1702).
>
> Eminent family genealogists inEnglandhave, for over 30 years,
> accepted that the Jesuits HenryMore(1586-1661) andThomasMore
> (1587-1623) were the sons of MaryMore(daughter ofThomasMoreII and
> Mary Scrope) and her husband Edward Moore/Moreof Haddon, Oxfordshire.
> As you rightly suggest, they were therefore the great-great
> grandchildren of Sir/SaintThomasMore.
> Re the deaths of these two: Henry died at the Jesuit House at Watten
> on 8 December 1661.Thomasdied (probably of Cholera) at Ghent on 2
> January 1623.
>
> The otherThomasand Henry were the sons ofThomasMoreII and Mary
> Scrope, and therefore the great-grandchildren of Sir/SaintThomasMore.ThomasMore(1565-1625) became a Secular Priest. He died at Rome on 11
> April 1625. HenryMore(1566-1597) joined the Society of St. Frances
wjhonson
> Yes by the way, Bridget also became a nun. One of them, I forget actually
> became rather high-up like a prioress of something of the sort. The line goes
> forward about another 4 generations, I was tracing them yesterday, if anyone
> is interested I will give more details.
>
>
--------------------------
Yes Will the reference that you couldn't remember is that Bridget
became
Bridget /More/ , prioress of the English Benedictine nuns of our Lady
of Hope in Paris
and died "aged 83" on 11 Oct 1692
cf http://books.google.com/books?id=I6YEAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=cresacre+more#PPR57,M1
Will Johnson
wjhonson
> will, and then the other day I found that someone calls her Elizabeth Gage.
> So if correct that would decide which of the two he married. If you want
> the source I'll forward it when I get to my office.
>
> Will Johnson
Yes Will, as to Miss Gage, you neglected to record your SOURCE stating
that her name was Elizabeth. Shame on you you loutish clod, may you
be cursed with premature graying.
Now as to when Elizabeth Gage, could have married, if this was indeed
she, you obliquely referred to her mention unmarried in her uncle's
Will. This uncle was John Gage, esq of Firle eldest son of Sir Edward
Gage, Knt of Firle by his wife Elizabeth Parker.
This John Gage married Margaret Copley and had at least one child, a
girl, unnamed in my sources who married Sir Henry Guldeford, Knt of
Taplow, Bucks. and Hempstead, Kent.
At any rate, John Gage's will is dated 2 Jan 1596, and in this
Elizabeth is "not yet 22". Which helps with the chronology.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
>
> I live in England and
> Thomas More is, on my mothers side, my 14x great grandfather on a line
> of descent from his son John down to a son of Basil More (c. 1638-1702).
>
> Eminent family genealogists in England have, for over 30 years,
> accepted that the Jesuits Henry More (1586-1661) and Thomas More
> (1587-1623) were the sons of Mary More (daughter of Thomas More II and
> Mary Scrope) and her husband Edward Moore/More of Haddon, Oxfordshire.
What sources are these "eminent family genealogists" using that we can
also consult, to prove to ourselves, that they are correct? Since we,
on this list, do not take the word of any living person :)
Secondly, what is the proof that Basil was born in or about 1638? I
have not yet seen any source that gives us any reference to his age at
all.
Thanks
Will Johnson
wjhonson
> I look forward to reading your book. Have you looked into Cresacre
> More's claim that Sir Thomas's mother was a daughter of one "Handcombe
> of Holliwell in Bedfordshire"? The consensus seems to be that his
> mother was, in fact, Agnes, daughter of Thomas Graunger, of London. Do
> you know whether there is solid evidence either way? My great-
> grandfather looked at this briefly in his history of the Hanscomb(e)/
> Hanscom family [CE Hanscomb, Common Blood, Queen Anne Press, 1967]. He
> accepted that More's mother was probably Agnes, but wondered whether
> there was some other connection to the Hanscombes of Holwell.
>
> Best,
> Mark Bridge
Mark, what evidence is given that Sir Thomas' mother was an Agnes, and
then seperatly what evidence that she was a Hanscomb ? Noting that
Cresacre states that Sir Thomas' mother died soon after or at his
birth, him being her last child (of three perhaps), and that Sir
Thomas' father remarried a few more times. With a history like that,
it's easy to confuse the women with each other.
Will Johnson
mark_...@hotmail.com
I'll dig out what I have on this and post tomorrow.
Mark
wjhonson
> You mentioned the marriage of John More and Ann Cresacre. Her
> maternal grandparents were John Cresacre of Barnborough, Yorks. and
> his wife Margaret Hastings, a daughter of Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing
> and Gressenhall (d. 7 Jun 1488). Margaret is usually identified in
> records of the Hastings family as ' Margaret wyff to John
> Grysacre' [HSP 16:156, Vis. of Yorkshire: pedigree of Hastynges]
> without any linkage to Cresacre of Barnborough. Fprtunately, the
> notes to the will of Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing and Fenwick provide
> the helpful detail,
>
> ' Another daughter, whom Mr. Hunter calls Margaret, was the wife of
> John Cresacre esq. of Barnborough,.. ' [Testa. Ebor. III:27526, will
> of Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing]
>
----------
John thank you for that helpful pointer to Vis York (1563-4),
"Hastynges"
This work is online, and linked from my Sources page and the link
directly to this page is
http://books.google.com/books?id=pjMEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA156
Now, secondarily, because of this I happened to spot in the index also
a page for "Cresacre"
Turning there
http://books.google.com/books?id=pjMEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA81
we see again the reference to this marriage and further descent
including the More marriage.
By the by, you will notice, will you not, that Edward Cresacre's wife
Jane BASSET is there, in the Vis stated as dau of Sir Richard Basset
of Fletborough.
I think it's pretty clear that this placename is the same as
"Fledburgh" and thus, quite possibly, Sir Richard is the *son* ? of
Thomas Basset perhaps by his wife Marjery Mering ?
If someone knows, I'd like to know a source to confirm this, as this
would *also* give the Mores a descent from the Princes of Powys
(Wales).
Will Johnson
al...@mindspring.com
> On Nov 22, 8:51 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:> You mentioned the marriage of John More and Ann Cresacre. Her
> > maternal grandparents were John Cresacre of Barnborough, Yorks. and
> > his wife Margaret Hastings, a daughter of Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing
> > and Gressenhall (d. 7 Jun 1488). Margaret is usually identified in
> > records of the Hastings family as ' Margaret wyff to John
> > Grysacre' [HSP 16:156, Vis. of Yorkshire: pedigree of Hastynges]
> > without any linkage to Cresacre of Barnborough. Fprtunately, the
> > notes to the will of Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing and Fenwick provide
> > the helpful detail,
>
> > ' Another daughter, whom Mr. Hunter calls Margaret, was the wife of
> > John Cresacre esq. of Barnborough,.. ' [Testa. Ebor. III:27526, will
> > of Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing]
>
> ----------
> John thank you for that helpful pointer to Vis York (1563-4),
> "Hastynges"
> This work is online, and linked from my Sources page and the link
>
> Now, secondarily, because of this I happened to spot in the index also
> a page for "Cresacre"
> we see again the reference to this marriage and further descent
> including the More marriage.
>
> By the by, you will notice, will you not, that Edward Cresacre's wife
> Jane BASSET is there, in the Vis stated as dau of Sir Richard Basset
> of Fletborough.
>
> I think it's pretty clear that this placename is the same as
> "Fledburgh" and thus, quite possibly, Sir Richard is the *son* ? of
> Thomas Basset perhaps by his wife Marjery Mering ?
>
> If someone knows, I'd like to know a source to confirm this, as this
> would *also* give the Mores a descent from the Princes of Powys
> (Wales).
>
> Will Johnson
See Raine, Testamenta Eboracensia 5 (Surtees Soc. 79) (1884): 109-110,
147-149.
Doug Smith
wjhonson
> 1.1a.1a.1.1.1a.1a.1.1.1.1 Edward Cresacre
> ----------------------------------------
> Birth: ca 148428
> Bapt: 151228
>
> Esq., of Barnborough, co. Yorks.
>
> ' Edward Cresacre, lord of Barnborough 24 Henry VII. died aged 27,
> 1512. = Jane, dau. of sir Richard Basset, of Fletborough, co. Notts.
> ' [Hunter, South Yorkshire I:37228, pedigree of Cresacre - cites
> 'visitation of 1585, preserved in Harl. 6070']
>
> cf. Testa. Ebor. III:27526 (will of Sir Hugh Hastings)
> DNB XXXVIII:44729 [biography of Sir Thomas More]
>
> Spouse: Jane Basset
>
Thank you John for your excellent post.
On this point, re when Edward died, etc. also see
http://books.google.com/books?id=I6YEAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=cresacre+more#PPR40,M1
that he died in 1512
and where they state or *imply* that he had an IPM wherein his
daughter and sole heir is named as aged one year.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
> ----------------------------------------
> wife of John More, son of the noted Sir Thomas More
>
> record of a fine, 1573:
>
> ' Thomas Jackson and John Burnsall als. Clerk [plaintiffs]
>
> Ann West, widow, daughter and heir of Edward Cresacre, esq., deceased,
> and Thomas (sic) More, her eldest son and heir apparent, and Edward
> More and Thomas (sic) More, her younger sons [deforciants]
>
> Manors of Baronburgh als. Barmburgh als. Barmbrough als. Barnebrough
> als. Barnburgh als. Barneburgh, near Doncaster, Mosseley in the Mosse,
> and Tylts, and 140 messuages, 60 cottages, and 2 watermills with lands
> in the same and in Baron-thorpe, Harlyngton, Bylham, Meixburgh, Bolton
> upon Derne, Goldthorpe, Wombwell,
Here you do not state, but it is known that Anne died 2 Dec 1577 "aged
66"
cf
http://books.google.com/books?id=I6YEAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=cresacre+more#PPR44,M1
her death date and age at death
Will Johnson
wjhonson
> Death: 154729
> Father: Sir Thomas More (executed 1535)
> Marr: 152929
>
> Children: Thomas (1531-1606)
> Edward
> Thomas 'secundus'
>
> Other Spouses George West
In this part you might want to add
second son Augustine More, he is named by Sir Thomas More just prior
to Sir Thomas' execution, he must have died young and/or unmarried
see
http://books.google.com/books?id=I6YEAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=cresacre+more#PPR39,M1
that there was a second son Augustine, who was born by the time Sir
Thomas More was executed
http://books.google.com/books?id=I6YEAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=cresacre+more#PPR48,M1
that he died unmarried
third son Edward as you have
fourth son Rev Thomas More "the younger" (so called)
fifth son Bartholomew More died young, in London, of the plague
cf
http://books.google.com/books?id=pjMEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA212
Vis Yorkshire 1563-4, "More"
http://books.google.com/books?id=I6YEAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=cresacre+more#PPR49,M1
died young in London of the plague
Will Johnson
wjhonson
Fledborough. In this they give the descent of this Manor as Richard,
John, Edward, John, which last John sold the Manor.
For chronology they state that the first John died on 20 May 36H8, and
that at that time, his heir Edward was aged 12. They state that
Richard left a will dated 15 Jun 1522 and his wife, who they called
Elizabeth DUNHAM left a will dated 30 Jun 1535.
At the time of Richard's will he names three children, John, George,
and a female the wife of George Wasteneys who is a witness and as
witness is called "my sone in the lawe".
Jane Basset, wife of Edward Cresacre, and dau of some Richard Basset
of Fletborough, must belong to this family at this point, unless
Richard had a father also Richard. Jane's chronology is not
sufficiently known yet to me to preclude that.
Will Johnson
al...@mindspring.com
Sir Richard's will at Raine, Testamenta Eboracensia 5 (Surtees Soc.
79) (1884): 147-149 names five children:
John the elder
John the younger
Agnes
Richard
George
It does not name Jane, perhaps because she was married and had already
been given what she was going to get. Presumably Agnes is the
daughter who married his son in law George Wasteneys.
He also mentions his siblings:
William
Margaret
Sir Edward (clerk)
Doug Smith
wjhonson
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
That's odd. Maybe I misread it, or maybe this is not it entire, but
the will is supposedly copied here
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/articles/brownsarticles/fledborough1.htm
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/articles/brownsarticles/fledborough2.htm
I think in the second article. Does your source copy out the entire
will? Or is the list of children an abstract? I didn't see all
those...
Will Johnson
al...@mindspring.com
>
> I think in the second article. Does your source copy out the entire
> will? Or is the list of children an abstract? I didn't see all
> those...
>
> Will Johnson
Apparently the entire will. I went through and underlined all the
children.
Doug
marw...@hotmail.com
> On Nov 22, 11:08 pm, marwd_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > unmarried;Thomas(1565-1625) - a Secular Priest; Henry (1566-1597) -
> > joined the Order of St. Francis de Paul, or Minims; Cresacre
> > (1572-1649).
>
> rather oblique reference to him having been "active for twenty years",
> which isn't very helpful in my opinion. At any rate, he was baptised
> on 13 Jan 1565/6 at Barnborough, which by the way, accords nicely to
> his epitaph describing him as "aetatis 59" since he died 11 Apr 1625
> and is buried in St Lewis, Rome.
>
> I know we do not know when he died, except that he survived to "man's
> estate"
>
> Will Johnson
These early dates are a bit fluid because New Years Day was March
25th. As you will know, that's why dates are often written, for
example, 15 March 1566/67 or 1566-67. In transcribing these, modern
writers often adopt one or the other.
The problem with the More family is that, apart from those early
baptisms at Barnburgh most were not recorded in Church of England
Registers as they refused to attend these churches. Travelling
Catholic missionaries were in constant danger of their lives and did
not carry registers or, if they did, they have been lost.
Like most of the early More sons, Thomas and Henry (sons of Thomas II
and Mary Scrope) was sent to study at English Schools and Colleges in
Catholic Europe.
Thomas and Henry both went first to Rheims.
Thomas went on to Verdun and then to the English College, Rome, where
he was ordained in 1591. After going to Spain he returned to England
in 1593. He later returned to Rome as 'Agent' for the Catholic Secular
Clergy in England. They were having big arguments with the Jesuits! We
not only know that he died 11 April 1625 and was buried in the Church
of San Luigi dei Francesi, we also know who attended his funeral and
how much it cost!
Henry left Rheims in 1585 to join the Minims at Nigeon. He died there
in 1597.
Martin Wood
P.S. Regarding sources: There are too many to quote - I have a garage
full of copies of them, collected over the last ten years!
I can only refer you to my book when it is published next year. It has
423 footnotes referencing sources.
Martin Wood
Bill Arnold
--- wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Nov 23, 12:02 pm, marwd_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I live in England and
> > Thomas More is, on my mothers side, my 14x great grandfather on a line
> > of descent from his son John down to a son of Basil More (c. 1638-1702).
> >
> > Eminent family genealogists in England have, for over 30 years,
> > accepted that the Jesuits Henry More (1586-1661) and Thomas More
> > (1587-1623) were the sons of Mary More (daughter of Thomas More II and
> > Mary Scrope) and her husband Edward Moore/More of Haddon, Oxfordshire.
>
Will: What sources are these "eminent family genealogists" using that we can
also consult, to prove to ourselves, that they are correct? Since we,
on this list, do not take the word of any living person :)
BA: Correct, least of all self-serving individuals who promote their own websites.
Might as well shut it down, Will. No one take the word of any living person and
never will again. O: is that a smiley at the end of that bizarre pronouncement?
Bill
*****
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.
Make Yahoo! your homepage.
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marw...@hotmail.com
> On Nov 22, 8:51 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:> You mentioned the marriage of JohnMoreand Ann Cresacre. Her
> > maternal grandparents were John Cresacre of Barnborough, Yorks. and
> > and Gressenhall (d. 7 Jun 1488). Margaret is usually identified in
> > records of the Hastings family as ' Margaret wyff to John
> > Grysacre' [HSP 16:156, Vis. of Yorkshire: pedigree of Hastynges]
> > without any linkage to Cresacre of Barnborough. Fprtunately, the
> > the helpful detail,
>
> > ' Another daughter, whom Mr. Hunter calls Margaret, was the wife of
> > John Cresacre esq. of Barnborough,.. ' [Testa. Ebor. III:27526, will
>
> ----------
> John thank you for that helpful pointer to Vis York (1563-4),
> "Hastynges"
> This work is online, and linked from my Sources page and the link
>
> Now, secondarily, because of this I happened to spot in the index also
> a page for "Cresacre"
> we see again the reference to this marriage and further descent
> including theMoremarriage.
>
> By the by, you will notice, will you not, that Edward Cresacre's wife
> of Fletborough.
>
> I think it's pretty clear that this placename is the same as
>
> If someone knows, I'd like to know a source to confirm this, as this
> would *also* give the Mores a descent from the Princes of Powys
> (Wales).
>
> Will Johnson
According to the Bassett Pedigree in Thoroton's Nottinghamshire (first
published 1677 and Edited and enlarged 1790-1798) Jane Bassett (who
married Edward Cresacre) was the daughter of Sir Richard Basset of
Fledburg and his wife Elizabeth, daughter of John Dunham Esq.
(Fledburg was sometimes anciently written Fletburgh, and now written
Fledborough)
Sir Richard Basset is given as the son of Thomas Basset (age 34 in
1478) and his wife Margery, daughter of William Mering. It's all
written in Latin.
Thomas Basset's parents are given as William Basset (d.1410) and
Katherine, the sister of Richard Stanhope.
William Basset's father is given as Thomas Basset of Fledburgh. No
wife named.
Thomas Basset's parents are given as William Basset senior (alive in
1383) and his wife Margaret (described only as a widow), alive in
1410.
William Basset's father is recorded as Richard Basset of Normanton.
It appears that the Bassets were granted Fledburgh after the death of
James de Lyseus (alive in 1365) who was Lord of Fledburgh but who died
without male issue. The Lyseus/Lyseux'Leysures family had held the
Lordship from the Bishop of Lincoln since the time of Edward I.
Thoroton also gives a Mering pedigree, but I haven't got a copy of the
book - though there is one in our local library
mark_...@hotmail.com
Here is a (little) bit more on Sir Thomas More's mother.
Agnes Graunger:
A manuscript in the Gale Collection at Trinity College Cambridge notes
the marriage of John More to Agnes Graunger at St Giles Cripplegate in
1474, then lists the births of six children, including Sir Thomas. As
subsequent marriages are not noted, it seems to be widely accepted
that she can be read as mother of all six. As I remember, the
manuscript is believed to be in John More's hand, hence its authority.
I will try to check on this with Trinity next week.
[The MS is indexed here: http://rabbit.trin.cam.ac.uk/James/O.2.21.html]
(unknown) Hanscombe:
Cresacre More names Sir Thomas's mother as a daughter of one
"Handcombe of Holliwell in Bedfordshire". Hanscombes were first
recorded in Shillington, the parish in which Holwell lies, in the 13th
century and are listed as "of Holwell" by the 16th, when they were
prosperous yeomen. I suppose it is possible that a Hanscombe was an
otherwise unrecorded subsequent wife of John More. Alternatively, the
Graunger and Hanscombe families were somehow linked and Cresacre was
aware that he was a distant cousin of the Hanscombes through Sir
Thomas's mother, so guessed/assumed that was her name. It may not be
relevant, but Gra(i)ngers are recorded in Shillington in the 17th
century and the National Archives has a document on a dispute over
tithes between "Lancelot Granger" and "William Hanscombe Jr." there in
1684/5.
Mark Bridge
On Nov 23, 9:19 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Mark, what evidence is given that Sir Thomas' mother was an Agnes, and
> then seperatly what evidence that she was aHanscomb? Noting that
WJho...@aol.com
handwriting" unless we in-fact known what his handwriting looked like.
Believed by whom? Where did they publish their belief and how was it
reviewed and evidenced?
Renia
> It's a bit circular to claim a manuscript is "believe to be in John More's
> handwriting" unless we in-fact known what his handwriting looked like.
>
> Believed by whom? Where did they publish their belief and how was it
> reviewed and evidenced?
There is often not room on newsgroup posts to wade into long arguments
and evidence to pre-empt and answer such a question.
Historians may have examined documents signed by John More; property
deeds, wills, other writings.
However, the previous poster would have done well to qualify his statement.
mark_...@hotmail.com
You're quite right. I meant to qualify the statement with the "as I
remember". I *think* I read a piece in Notes & Queries explaining why
the manuscript is attributed to John More. However, I have mislaid my
copy of the article and am (very) far from certain about this. So I am
contacting Trinity College to try to establish exactly what is known
about the MS. I will post back if and as I learn more. For the time
being, I can cite no good evidence on the question.
Mark
On Nov 26, 11:49 am, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
wjhonson
stumble over an extension to this ancestry of Anne (Cresacre) More.
At least this is an extension to what *I* had.
When I put things in quote, that means I am quoting some authority,
even though in this brief report, I don't state what. But if anyone
questions a particular fact, let me know and I'll check again.
What I had had for her was
1 Anne Cresacre sole heiress of her father "aged one year" at his
death, born 1511, died 2 Dec 1577 "aged 66"
2 Edward Cresacre born 1484/5 *as* he was called "aged 27" at his
death in 1512
3 Jane Basset, born sometime in the last quarter of the 15th century
4 John Cresacre of Barnborough, co Yorks
5 Margaret Hastings married 18 E 4 (i.e. 1478/9)
6 Richard Basset, Knt of Fledborough, co Notts, born sometime in the
third quarter of the 15th century, Will dated 15 Jun 1522
7 Elizabeth Dunham, her jointure in the Manor of Normanton; Will dated
30 June 1535
Now to that, for 4, I can now add an authority stated that John died 3
Feb 1501, upon which Edward, aged 16 was his heir.
Then behind John I had had nothing, but can now add an authority
stating that the *Will* of Percival Cresacre of Barnbourgh (he of the
famous man-and-cat legend), will dated 19 Jan 1476/7 in which he makes
"my son John" one of his executors.
Percival Cresacre has a monument at Barnborough near-to his wife, whom
he names in his will as already deceased and wishing to be buried near
her, as Alice which is also the name on her slab. She is called, by
an authority Alice Mountney, dau of Thomas Mountney. And her slab
states "ob 1450"
Interestingly this would mean that John Cresacre would likely be "of
an age" with his parents-in-law, perhaps slightly younger, but his
wife must have been more than a bit younger than he.
At any rate, we're not done!
It turns out, that there exists yet another will of Peter de la Haye
of Spaldington dated 8 Aug 1426 in which, not only does he mention his
dead wife Elizabeth, but also his living wife, also Elizabeth, *and*
states that this second Elizabeth was married previously to James
Cresacre !
THEN in Elizabeth's will herself (the second Elizabeth), dated 9 Jul
1434, she also mentions her dead husband James Cresacre (of
Barnborough), her dead husband Peter de la Haye, AND "my son"
Percival.
So there ya go. What a hoot. I had no idea that my search for
Thomas de la Haye's father-in-law would bring me back to the Cresacre
clan.
Will Johnson