Owain Glyndwr Prince of Wales
Leo van de Pas
son of Gruffyd Fychan, Lord of Glendyfrdwy, and Elen
born about 1354 in Montgomeryshire
died in 1416
He studied law at Westminster and became esquire to the
Earl of Arundel. In 1401 he rebelled against Henry IV,
proclaimed himself Prince of Wales, established an
independent Welsh Parliament, and joined the coalition
with Henry Percy Hotspur who, in 1403, was defeated at
the battle of Shrewsbury. He then continued to fight for
Welsh independence until his death.
I cannot find a name for a wife but he had two if not
three daughters, two names are easy: Alice and Janet.
The third one, probably Fychan (is that possible ?), made
an incredible marriage. She married Sir Edmond Mortimer,
son of Philippa of Clarence, daughter of Lionel, son of
King Edward III.
The question is : I found an indication for children,
Lionel Mortimer, who died young, then three unnamed ones
who, in 1413, with their mother 'died a mysterious death' ,
and then this infuriating remark 'more children'.
Does anyone know anything about the descendants of Sir Edmund Mortimer and
Fychan? There is a tradition that descendants moved to Scotland.
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
John Carmi Parsons
family long seated in the Maelor Saesneg ("Saxon Maelor," otherwise in former
times "Flintshire detached"). Unfortunately these notes were taken many years
ago, in my salad days, and I don't have any references for them; I rather
suspect from the paper and handwriting that the *DNB* might be the source.
The information you report below for the Glyn Dwr-Mortimer marriage is all
that I have ever been able to unearth. The three younger children who died
in prison with their mother in 1413 are always said to have been girls,
but I have never seen any reliable authority that reported their names--
only the son's name.
According to these notes, Owain's mother Helen was one of two daughters of
Thomas ap Llywelyn (d. ca. 1355), lord of Ceredigon, a male-line descendant of
Gruffydd ap Rhys, prince of Deheubarth (d. 1201): Gruffydd begat Owain (d.
1235/6), father of Mareddud (d. 1265), who begat Owain (d. 1275) father of
Llywelyn of Ceredigon (d. 1309), father of Thomas father of Helen. Helen's
sister Margaret was twice married; by her second husband Tewdr ap Gronw she
was a grandmother of Edmund Tudor, second husband of Katherine de Valois and
grandfather of Henry VII. (This last obviously comes from the *Handbook
of British Chronology*'s outline descents of Welsh princes.)
I'm unaware of any Mortimer-Glyn Dwr descendants in Scotland or elsewhere,
though I believe there are numerous descendants from Owain's other children.
John Parsons
Simon Pugh
de Pas <leov...@iinet.net.au> writes
>Owain Glyndwr/Owen Glendower/Owen Glendour
<snip>
>The question is : I found an indication for children,
>Lionel Mortimer, who died young, then three unnamed ones
>who, in 1413, with their mother 'died a mysterious death' ,
>and then this infuriating remark 'more children'.
>
>Does anyone know anything about the descendants of Sir Edmund Mortimer and
>Fychan? There is a tradition that descendants moved to Scotland.
>
>Many thanks
>Leo van de Pas
I am not a Welsh speaker but I think fychan means younger and is
commonly used where a son has the same name as the father as in junior.
This is what I have on Owain Glyn Dwr
Subject* Owain GLYN DWR
Birth* bt 1350-1359 <1>
Death* b 24 Feb 1415 <2>
Father* Gruffudd FYCHAN ( -1370)
Mother* Elen VERCH THOMAS
___________________________________________________________________
__
Spouse* Margaret HANMER
Father* Sir David HANMER Kt ( -1387)
Mother* Angharad VERCH LLYWELYN DDU
___________________________________________________________________
_______
Three Children
?/M Gruffudd AB OWAIN
?/M Maredudd AB OWAIN
?/F Catrin VERCH OWAIN GLYN DWR
Marriage* __ ___ ____ Edmund DE MORTIMER ( -1409), son
of Edmund DE MORTIMER
3rd Earl of March and Phillipa ?
Ref:
Davies, R R. The Revolt of Owain Glyn Dwr (Oxford, New York:
Oxford University Press, 1995).
Merry Christmas
--
Simon Pugh
DavidBotts
I show Fychan as Catrin. Her marriage looks solid so far.
Dave
"up over in Texas, as opposed to down under in Australia"<g>
1 Gryffydd ap Madog b: WFT Est. 1150-1190 in Wales src: The
Castles of Wales
.. +Spouse of Gryffydd ap Madog b: WFT Est. 1150-1190 src: The
Castles of Wales
... 2 Gruffydd Fychan ap Gryffydd b: WFT Est. 1175-1220 in Wales
src: The Castles of Wales
....... +Wife of Gruffydd Fychan ap Gryffydd b: WFT Est.
1175-1240 src: The Castles of Wales
......... 3 Child of Gruffydd Fychan b: WFT Est. 1190-1270
src: The Castles of Wales
............. +Spouse of Child of Gruffydd Fychan ap Gryffydd
b: WFT Est. 1185-1280 src: The Castles of Wales
.............. 4 Grandchild of Gruffydd Fychan b: WFT Est. 1215-1300
src: The Castles of Wales
.................. +Spouse of Grandchild of Gruffydd Fychan
b: WFT Est. 1215-1300 src: The Castles of Wales
.................... 5 GGrandchild of Gruffydd Fychan b: WFT Est.
1245-1320 src: The Castles of Wales
........................ +Spouse of GGrandchild of Gruffydd
Fychan b: WFT Est. 1245-1320 src: The Castles of Wales
......................... 6 Gruffudd Fychan ap Gruffudd b: WFT
Est. 1239-1300 in Wales? src: The Revolt of Owain Glyn Dwr
............................. +Elen ferch Thomas b: WFT Est.
1239-1300 in Wales? src: The Revolt of Owain Glyn Dwr
............................... 7 Owain Glyndwr b: Abt. 1354 in
Sycharth, Wales src: Wales: A History d: Bet. 1415 - 1417 src:
Wales: A History
................................... +Margaret Hanmer b: WFT
Est. 1354-1374 src: Wales: A History m: Bet. 1370 - 1490 src: Wales: A
History
.................................... 8 Son of Owain Glyndwr b: WFT
Est. 1372-1404 in Wales src: Wales: A History d: Bef. 1417 in Wales
src: Wales: A History
.................................... 8 Daughter of Owain Glyndwr
b: WFT Est. 1372-1405 in Wales src: Wales: A History
.................................... 8 Gruffudd b: WFT Est.
1372-1490 in Wales src: Wales: A History d: Bef. 1417 src:
Wales: A History
.................................... 8 Son of Owain Glyndwr b: WFT
Est. 1373-1403 in Wales src: Wales: A History d: Bef. 1417 src:
Wales: A History
.................................... 8 Catrin b: WFT Est. 1373-1406
in Wales src: Wales: A History
........................................ +Edmund Mortimer
b: WFT Est. 1358-1382 in Usk?, Wales? src: Research of Denis R. Reid m: Abt.
1402 src: Wales: A History d: 1409 src: Research of Denis R. Reid
.................................... 8 Daughter of Owain Glyndwr
b: WFT Est. 1374-1407 in Wales src: Wales: A History
.................................... 8 Son of Owain Glyndwr b: WFT
Est. 1375-1405 in Wales src: Wales: A History d: Bef. 1417 src:
Wales: A History
.................................... 8 <Possibly more Daughters>
b: WFT Est. 1375-1407 src: Wales: A History
.................................... 8 Son of Owain Glyndwr b: WFT
Est. 1376-1406 in Wales src: Wales: A History d: Bef. 1417 src:
Wales: A History
.................................... 8 Maredudd b: WFT Est.
1377-1407 in Wales src: Wales: A History
............................... 7 Sister of Owain Glyndwr
b: WFT Est. 1354-1374 in Wales src: Wales: A History
................................... +Hywel Cyffin b: WFT Est.
1344-1360 src: Wales: A History
............................... 7 Sibling(s) Owain Glyndwr
b: WFT Est. 1354-1374 in Wales src: Wales: A History
................................... +Spouse(s) of Sibling of Owain
Gwendwr b: WFT Est. 1354-1374 src: Wales: A History
.................................... 8 Ieuan ap Madog b: WFT Est.
1370-1386 in Wales? src: Wales: A History
.................................... 8 Ieuan Fychan b: WFT Est.
1370-1386 in Wales? src: Wales: A History
............................... 7 Tudur b: WFT Est. 1355-1364
in Wales src: Wales: A History
... 2 Madog ap Gryffydd b: WFT Est. 1175-1220 in Wales src:
The Castles of Wales d: 1277 src: The Castles of Wales
... 2 Llwelyn ap Gryffydd b: WFT Est. 1175-1220 in Wales src:
The Castles of Wales
ray montgomery
What is the ancestry of Henry the Eighths Great Great Grand Mother
margaret Fychan that married Marredud Tudor the Great Grand Father of
henry the seventh.
perhaps the best way to ask this is does any one have a tufel for Owen
Tudor that married Catherine Queen of France.
Sincerely
RAY
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ray montgomery
What is the ancestry you show for this ancient Hamner Family?????
Sincerely
RAY
On 19 Dec 1998 08:19:03 -0800 jpar...@chass.utoronto.ca (John Carmi
Parsons) writes:
>Leo, my notes show Owain Glyn Dwr marrying in 1383 Margaret Hanmer, of
>a
>family long seated in the Maelor Saesneg ("Saxon Maelor," otherwise in
>former
>times "Flintshire detached"). Unfortunately these notes were taken
>many years
>ago, in my salad days, and I don't have any references for them; I
>rather
>suspect from the paper and handwriting that the *DNB* might be the
>source.
___________________________________________________________________
ray montgomery
Does any one have a tufel for Margaret Hamner Shown Below???
Sincerely
RAY
___________________________________________________________________
Leo van de Pas
>leo, Simon Etal or yoall
>What is the ancestry of Henry the Eighths Great Great Grand Mother
>margaret Fychan that married Marredud Tudor the Great Grand Father of
>henry the seventh.
>perhaps the best way to ask this is does any one have a tufel for Owen
>Tudor that married Catherine Queen of France.
>Sincerely
>RAY
Young Raymond,
Do you like skinny tufels? Here comes one :
1.Sir Owen Tudor
born circa 1400, beheaded 2 February 1461 Hereford
2.Maredudd ap Tudur
3.Margaret
4.Tudur Vychan
died 1367
5.Margaret
6.Dafydd Fychan ap Dafydd Llwyd
7.NN
8.Tudur Hen
died 1311
9.NN
10.Thomas ap Llywelyn of Iscoed
11.NN
16.Goronwy ad Ednyfed
died 1268
17.NN
20.Llywelyn ap Owain
died 1309
21.NN
32.Ednyfed Fychan ap Cynwrig
Senechal of Gwynedd
died 1246
33.Gwellian
40.Owain
died 1275
41.Angharad
66.Rhys ap Gruffyd
Prince of Deheubart 1153-1197
born 1132 in Ireland
died 28 April 1197
67.Gwenllian
80.Maredudd
died 1265
81.Eleanor
82.Owain ap Maredudd of Cydewain
83.Marared
died 25 September 1255
132.Gruffyd ap Rhys
Prince of Deheubarth
born circa 1090
died 1137
married
133.Gwenllian
died 1136 Kidwelly
160.Owain
died 18 January 1236 Strata Florida
161.NN
162.Maelgwyn Fychan
163.NN
166.Maelgwyn Fychan
Lord of Ceredigion
died 1257
167.Angharad verch Llywelyn
320.Gruffyd ap Rhys
Prince of Deheubarth 1197-1201
died 25 July 1201
321.Matilda de Breos
332.Maelgwyn ap Rhys
Lord of Ceredigion
born circa 1170
died 1230 Llanerch-aeron
333.NN
640=66
641=67
642.William de Breos
643.NN
664=66
665=67
Source : Burke's Guide to the Royal Family
William Addams Reitwiesner
>Owain Glyndwr/Owen Glendower/Owen Glendour
>son of Gruffyd Fychan, Lord of Glendyfrdwy, and Elen
>born about 1354 in Montgomeryshire
>died in 1416
>
>He studied law at Westminster and became esquire to the
>Earl of Arundel. In 1401 he rebelled against Henry IV,
>proclaimed himself Prince of Wales, established an
>independent Welsh Parliament, and joined the coalition
>with Henry Percy Hotspur who, in 1403, was defeated at
>the battle of Shrewsbury. He then continued to fight for
>Welsh independence until his death.
>
>I cannot find a name for a wife but he had two if not
>three daughters, two names are easy: Alice and Janet.
>The third one, probably Fychan (is that possible ?), made
>an incredible marriage. She married Sir Edmond Mortimer,
>son of Philippa of Clarence, daughter of Lionel, son of
>King Edward III.
>
>The question is : I found an indication for children,
>Lionel Mortimer, who died young, then three unnamed ones
>who, in 1413, with their mother 'died a mysterious death' ,
>and then this infuriating remark 'more children'.
>
>Does anyone know anything about the descendants of Sir Edmund Mortimer and
>Fychan? There is a tradition that descendants moved to Scotland.
"Fychan" means "younger", and wouldn't be used without a name (such as
"Llywelyn Fychan", "Maelgwn Fychan", "Angharad Fychan", etc.).
Owain Glyndwr is mentioned in Bartrum's *Welsh Genealogies AD 300-1400*,
table "Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 5" with his wife Margred, daughter of David
Hanmer. Six sons and six daughters are shown for them, along with an
illegitimate son (Ieuan) for Owain. The sons are shown as:
1. Gruffudd
2. Madog
3. Maredudd
4. Thomas
5. John
6. Dafydd
None of these are shown as having married, or doing anything. Bartrum's
source for these sons is "Rhandiroedd Powys", page 10.
Owain Glyndwr's daughters are shown as:
1. Elizabeth m. Sir John Scudamore (son John at Paget Q117850)
2. Joan m. Henry Grey of Rhuthun (see Cokayne VI:158 note a)
3. Jonet m. Sir John Croft (see Paget, Prince of Wales, Q115721)
4. Ann m. Sir Richard Monington
5. Myfanwy m. Llywelyn ab Adda
6. Gwenllian m. Philip ap Rhys
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
Simon Pugh
<wr...@erols.com> writes
<snip>
>Owain Glyndwr's daughters are shown as:
>
>1. Elizabeth m. Sir John Scudamore (son John at Paget Q117850)
>2. Joan m. Henry Grey of Rhuthun (see Cokayne VI:158 note a)
>3. Jonet m. Sir John Croft (see Paget, Prince of Wales, Q115721)
>4. Ann m. Sir Richard Monington
>5. Myfanwy m. Llywelyn ab Adda
>6. Gwenllian m. Philip ap Rhys
>
>
>
>
>William Addams Reitwiesner
>wr...@erols.com
>
>"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
Hi
Do we know if Catrin ferch Owain Glyn Dwr existed and did she marry Sir
Edmund Mortimer as show in various sources including RR Davies and BxP.
If so I wonder why Bartrum left her out.
ray montgomery
Thank you very much
Very Very much, but i wonder why this being the ancestry of a king so
well known as henry the eighth and his ancestry having so many holes????
Any ideas????
Sincerely
some times i seem a very young raymond
On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:11:19 +0800 Leo van de Pas <leov...@iinet.net.au>
writes:
___________________________________________________________________
John Carmi Parsons
that he was their descendant. By that I mean that these obscure Welsh
squires in the 14th and 15th century had no idea they would become the
ancestors of a king, nor had anybody else. Given their station in life at
the time they lived, there was no reason for anybody to take special notice of
them. They became interesting only retroactively, when the Tudors reached the
English throne. And by that time it was probably already too late to expect
that anybody would have been able to find out anything about these people.
In other words, however surprising it may be, not all kings are uniformly
descended from aristocrats. The future (God willing) William V of England,
for example, only has to go back on his maternal family tree to the early 19th
century to find a woman named Eliza Kewark, reportedly an Indian or Pakistani
(or in some versions Armenian) woman who became the mistress of an English
officer in India (I think his name was Forbes); one of their daughters was
sent to England to be educated and to work, and married an Englishman. Her
descendant was Ruth Gill, wife of the 4th Baron Fermoy and Diana's maternal
grandmother. But we know little or nothing of Eliza Kewark's parentage, and
she lived barely 200 years ago.
In point of fact, Henry VII probably would not have been very happy to learn
that anybody WAS poking about on the remote and more obscure branches of his
family tree; he preferred to dwell only on his supposed descent from Cadwladr
and his alleged kinship to Arthur, which his Welsh background made convenient
for him. Otherwise it was his Beaufort background that was most important to
him, since it was that descent that gave him his claim to the throne.
Anent which, let's not forget that we know virtually nothing of the ancestors
of Katherine de Roet, 3rd wife of John of Gaunt and forebear of the Beauforts.
John Parsons
ray montgomery
i just wish using skinny tufels made one slimmer aye,.
Thank you my dear friend
Sincerely
RAY
Erols
>Owain Glyndwr/Owen Glendower/Owen Glendour
- somewhere I read that his wife's surname was HANMER. Having some
Colonial Hanmers in my family tree, this factoid has stuck with me, but I've
not been able to uncover anything more about this family - the only books
I'm able to turn up locally seem to be romanticized accounts of his life.
Judith Sanders
>
Richard H Renold
According to Burke's "Royal Families", Owain Glyndwr married
Margaret Hanmer, daughter of Sir David Hanmer (see Burke's
Peerage... re Hanmer, Baronet), and had issue (1) Lowry (m. Robert
Puleston and had issue) and (2) Isabel (m. Adda ap Iorwerth Ddu, and
had issue).
Richard Renold
Lichfield, Staffs., UK
(ren...@brunel.co.uk)
DavidBotts
I'm showing:
1 Owain Glyndwr b: Bet. 1350 - 1359 src: The Revolt of Owain Glyn Dwr
.. +Margaret Hanmer b: WFT Est. 1354-1374 in of the Maelor
Saesneg region, Wales src: Wales: A History
......... 2 Son of Owain Glyndwr b: WFT Est. 1372-1404 in Wales
src: Wales: A History
......... 2 Daughter of Owain Glyndwr b: WFT Est. 1372-1405
in Wales src: Wales: A History
......... 2 Gruffudd ab Owain b: WFT Est. 1372-1490 in Wales
src: Wales: A History
......... 2 Catrin verch Owain Glyndwr b: WFT Est. 1373-1388
in Wales src: Wales: A History
............. +Edmund Mortimer b: WFT Est. 1358-1382 in Usk?,
Wales? src: Research of Denis R. Reid
.................... 3 Daughter of Edmund Mortimer b: Bet. 1402 -
1411 in Wales? src: Research of Leo van de Pas
.................... 3 Lionel Mortimer b: Bet. 1402 - 1413 in
Wales? src: Research of Leo van de Pas
.................... 3 <more> b: Bet. 1402 - 1413 src: Research of
Leo van de Pas
.................... 3 Daughter of Edmund Mortimer b: Bet. 1403 -
1412 in Wales? src: Research of Leo van de Pas
.................... 3 Daughter of Edmund Mortimer b: Bet. 1404 -
1413 in Wales? src: Research of Leo van de Pas
......... 2 Son of Owain Glyndwr b: WFT Est. 1373-1403 in Wales
src: Wales: A History
......... 2 Daughter of Owain Glyndwr b: WFT Est. 1374-1407
in Wales src: Wales: A History
......... 2 Son of Owain Glyndwr b: WFT Est. 1375-1405 in Wales
src: Wales: A History
......... 2 <Possibly more Daughters> b: WFT Est. 1375-1407
src: Wales: A History
......... 2 Son of Owain Glyndwr b: WFT Est. 1376-1406 in Wales
src: Wales: A History
......... 2 Maredudd ab Owain b: WFT Est. 1377-1407 in Wales
src: Wales: A History
Dave Botts
San Antonio, Texas
"AKA Silicon Valley south - where the silicon forall our chips comes from stone
grinding the corn for our tortillas"<g>
dunnem...@gmail.com
> Owain Glyndwr/Owen Glendower/Owen Glendour
> born about 1354 in Montgomeryshire
> died in 1416
>
> He studied law at Westminster and became esquire to the
> Earl of Arundel. In 1401 he rebelled against Henry IV,
> proclaimed himself Prince of Wales, established an
> independent Welsh Parliament, and joined the coalition
> with Henry Percy Hotspur who, in 1403, was defeated at
> the battle of Shrewsbury. He then continued to fight for
> Welsh independence until his death.
>
> I cannot find a name for a wife but he had two if not
> three daughters, two names are easy: Alice and Janet.
> The third one, probably Fychan (is that possible ?), made
> an incredible marriage. She married Sir Edmond Mortimer,
> son of Philippa of Clarence, daughter of Lionel, son of
> King Edward III.
>
> The question is : I found an indication for children,
> Lionel Mortimer, who died young, then three unnamed ones
> who, in 1413, with their mother 'died a mysterious death' ,
> and then this infuriating remark 'more children'.
>
> Does anyone know anything about the descendants of Sir Edmund Mortimer and
> Fychan? There is a tradition that descendants moved to Scotland.
>
> Leo van de Pas
Hovite
> In 1401 he rebelled against Henry IV,
> proclaimed himself Prince of Wales
The Principality of Wales had been a fief of England. It was forfeited in 1284 and divided into counties: Anglesey, Carnarvonshire, and Merionethshire.