Fw: Possible issue with all descents from Ghengis Khan
Don Stone
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rafal T. Prinke" <raf...@amu.edu.pl>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sunday, 01 July, 2001 07:34 AM
> Subject: Re: Possible issue with all descents from Ghengis Khan
>
>>DadG...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>This is a late reply but I wanted to check the sources.
>>
>>>ambiguous chronology and placement of Borte and Genghis during this period
>>>raises the possibility that Jochiâ??s father was actually one of Borteâ??s
>>>Merkit captors, possibly a leader named Chilger, rather than Genghis himself.
>
>>> Ratchnevsky comments, â?śIt would be difficult to explain the election of
>>>Ogodei [Jochiâ??s younger brother] as Genghis Khanâ??s successor if there had
>>>been no doubts among the Mongols concerning the legitimacy of Jochiâ??s
>>>birth.â?ť (pp. 36-7)
>>>
>>>Does anybody know the current status of this speculation? If this possiblity
>>>is credible, the descents from Genghis Khan through his oldest son Jochi are
>>>all clouded in the first generation.
>>
>>Indeed, it is quite clear from the _Secret history of the Mongols_, section
>>254-255 (I hope this is canonical, as my edition is a direct translation
>>into Polish), that it was well known by the contemporaries that
>>Jochi was not a biological son of Ghengis. As you say, his father
>>was probably Chilger the Strong of the Merkits.
>>
>>As the _Secret history_ is a contemporary (or near contemporary)
>>source (although known only from a 14th c. copy) and was written
>>for the use of the khans, there can be little doubt about it.
>
> Another collection of data that can be gleaned from _The Secret History of
> the Mongols_ is a record of the mothers of many of the Mongol leaders. With
> an adequate & decent index one can quite easily trace the maternal lines
> under discussion here. I did this once for a thesis which I no longer hold.
> The results, which I no longer have available, (because I know that someone,
> [or somethree or -four], will ask), but remember in part, led to Chagatai or
> Ogodai, and to Mongke _via_ Tului. So there still are line back to
> Ghenghis.
He (Stanford) recently sent me (Don) the following supplement:
I remember that there was some discussion as to the descents from Genghis
Khan. The discussion centered on the fact that Joji may not have been the son
of Genghis Khan; rather the abductor of Genghis' wife, at about the time that
Joji would have been conceived. I had contributed that a descent from Genghis
could be retrieved via the feminine line(s). I had cited, therein, the Secret
History. A handier source would be Grousset, René, The Empire of the Steppes,
(Rurgers University, 1970). Following is part of what I was able to find.
______________________________________________________________________________
1. Tokta-Timür, (Tochtemir), 1291-1312, m. Maria, daughter of
Andronikos II
2. Möngke-Temür, 1267-1280, m.
3. Öljei Khatun
4. Toqoqan, m.
5. anonyma
6. Saljidai Küregen Qonqirat, ob. 1302, m.
7. Kelmish-Aqa Khatun
8. Batu, m.
9. Borakchin
10. Buka-Timur
11.
12. Nachia Küregen
13.
14. Qutuqtu Möngke Khan, m.
15. Kutuktai
16. Jochi, m.
17. Öki Fuji"n Khatun Qonqirat
18.
19.
20. Kush-Buka, m.
21. Chichegen Bilgi
24. Jakembo Alchi Noyan, m.
25. Lingum Khatun
28. Tuli, m.
29. Siurkukteni Qonqirat
30.
31.
32. Chingiz Khan, m.
33. Börte Fuji"n Qonqirat
34. #24
35. #25
40. Sengum Qonqirat
41.
42. #32
43. #33
48. Kurjaquz (Cyriacus) Dei Setzen, m.
49.
50. Küshlüg, Khan of the Naimans 1178-1211, m.
51. anonyma
56. #32
57. #33
58. #24
59. #25
64. Yessugei Bagatur, m.
65. Ogelea (Oelun) Eke
66. #48
67. #49
80. Tughrul Wang Khan
81.
96. Merghuz (Marcus) Buyiruq Khan
97.
100. Taiboqa Tayang, m.
101. Gurbesu
102. Ye-lü Chih-lu-ku, Gur-Khan 1163-1211
103.
128. Bardam Bahadur, m.
129. Sain Maral Khayak
130.
131.
160. #48
161. #49
192. Sain Tikin
193.
200. Inanchi Bilgä
201.
202.
203.
204. Ye-lü Yi-lie, Gur-Khan 1142-63
205.
256. Kabul Khan, m.
257. Goa Kulkua
258.
259.
384. Qonqirat
385. anonyma
400.
401.
408. Ye-lü Ta-shih,(Te^-tsung), Gur-Khan of the Kara-Khitai, ob. 1142
409. Ta-pu-yen, (Kan-t'ieu), 1142-50
512. Tumbaghai, m.
513. his step-mother
514. #384
515. #385
816. Ho-lu-wo
817.
1024. Bai Sankur (Shingkor Dokshin)
1025.
1632. Hung-ki, (Hsing-tsung), 1054-1151, m. 2)
1633. Hsiao Je^n-i
2048. Kaidu Khan
2049.
3264. Tsung-che^n, (Mukpuku), 1031-54
3265.
3266. Hsiao
3267.
6528. Lung-sü, (Ching-tsung), n. 971, r. 983-1031, m. a Sung princess, &
6529. Hsiao Jui-chih
6532. Hsiao
6533.
13,056. Ming-ki, (Hsien), 969-983, m.
13,057. Hsiao Huai-chieh
13,058. Hsiao Ssu-we^n, m.
13,059. Ye-lü Lü-pu-ku
13,064. Hsiao
13,065.
26,112. Uryuk, (Yüan), 947-952, m.
26,113. anonyma
26,114. #6532
26,115. #6533
26,116. Hsiao
26,117.
26,118. T'ai-tsung, m.
26,119. Ye-lü Ching-an
26,128. Hsiao
26,129. anonyma
52,224. Turyuk (Ye-lü Pei), K. of Eastern Tan
52,225.
52,232. #26,128
52,233. #26,129
52,236. Apaoki, (T'ai-tsu), President of the Khitay ca. 910-926, m.
52,237. Djurrut, (Hsiao Ch'un-ch'in)
52,238. Hsiao Shin-lu, m.
52,239. Ye-lü Chih-ku
52,256. Hsiao
52,257.
104,448. #52,236
104,449. #52,237
104,472. I-la Te^-tsu, Chftn. of the I-la clan of the Khitay
104,473.
104,474. #52,236
104,475. #52,237
104,476. #13,064
104,477. #13,065
104,478. #52,236
104,479. #52,237
104,512. #13,064
104,513. #13,065
208,944. I-la Hsüan-tsu, Chftn. of the I-la clan of the Khitay
208,945.
417,888. I-la I-tsu, Chftn. of the I-la clan of the Khitay
417,889.
835,776. I-la Su-tsu, Chftn. of the I-la clan of the Khitay, v. 755*
835,777.
__________________________
* His mother may have been the T'ang princess who married the Ch. of the
Khitai at this time.
Igor Sklar
> I remember that there was some discussion as to the descents from Genghis
> Khan. The discussion centered on the fact that Joji may not have been the son
> of Genghis Khan; rather the abductor of Genghis' wife, at about the time that
> Joji would have been conceived. I had contributed that a descent from Genghis
> could be retrieved via the feminine line(s). I had cited, therein, the Secret
> History. A handier source would be Grousset, René, The Empire of the Steppes,
> (Rurgers University, 1970). Following is part of what I was able to find.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5a635d65.0302051509.11224e10%40posting.google.com&output=gplain
As I still have opinion that legitimacy of Jochi's birth was
questioned by his enemies rather than by his father, I think it
fruitful to identify gateways that lead from Jochi to present-day
Europe. To the best of my knowledge, there are three of them.
1. The marriage of Khan Toqtai's daughter to Prince Narimont, 2nd son
of Great Duke Gedyminas of Lithuania. Numerous descendants are
reported in Russia and Poland, some European royals being among them.
The marriage is first recorded in early 18th century from some
Ruthenian chronicles.
2. The marriage of Feodor the Black, Grand Duke of Yaroslavl, to a
daughter of Golden Horde's khan, either Nogai or Mengu-Timur. All the
highest nobility of Russia descends from this alliance, either
patrilineally or through female lines.
3. Some modern authors report that Basarab, founder of the Wallachian
royal house, was apparently a son of Tatar prince called Toqtemir.
According to those Romanian sources I was able to consult, Bulgarian
connections of Basarab clearly indicate his descent from Tihomir
("Quiet Peace"), a Bulgarian boyar living about that time.
Finally, there are some Russian families of Tatar extraction who claim
either agnatic (Khans of Siberia, Khans of Crimea) or cognatic
(Yusupov, Urusov) descent from Genghis Khan.
regards