Re: Stirnet Correction - Isabella le Zouche m John Lovel of Titchmarsh (d 1347)
WJho...@aol.com
http://www.stirnet.com/html/genie/british/xyz/zouche1.htm#linklo
claims that Isabella "probably of this generation" was a daughter of Eudes le
Zouche by Milicent Cantilupe (aka de Monte Alto)
Bear in mind that "The Knights of Edward I", which excerpt posted here
5/25/06 by wils...@paradise.net[.]nz states that Eudes died by 25 Jun 1279
Now flipping to Stirnet on Lovel of Tichmarsh here
http://www.stirnet.com/html/genie/british/ll/lovel2.htm
we see that John Lovel and his wife Isabella le Zouche had two sons named
John (and one daughter), with John the elder son being born in 1341 and John the
latter son being born abt 1344.
We can see right off that this cannot work. Isabella would have to be at
least 64 at the birth of the latter son John.
The easiest solution is that Isabella is not "of this generation" but rather
a daughter of some other Zouche.
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
CE Wood
1.3.1.3.Eon la Zouche, d.1279; m.before 13 Dec 1273 Millicent de
Cantelupe
1.3.1.3.1.William la Zouche (1276-1352); m.before 15 Feb 1296 Maud
Lovel
1.3.1.3.1.1.Eon la Zouche (1297/8-1326); m.before Jun 1322 Joan Inge
1.3.1.3.1.1.2.Isabel, d.1349; m.John, Lord Lovel (d.1347)
CP VIII:218: "said to be sister of William Zouche, Lord Zouche of
Haryngworth."
CE Wood
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< Per Theroff:
1.3.1.3.Eon la Zouche, d.1279; m.before 13 Dec 1273 Millicent de
Cantelupe
1.3.1.3.1.William la Zouche (1276-1352); m.before 15 Feb 1296 Maud
Lovel
1.3.1.3.1.1.Eon la Zouche (1297/8-1326); m.before Jun 1322 Joan Inge
1.3.1.3.1.1.2.Isabel, d.1349; m.John, Lord Lovel (d.1347) >>
Thanks! This placement makes much more sense.
Continuing on with these Lovell's of Titchmarch, Leo has that John the 5th
Lord d 10 Sep 1408 married
Maud Baroness Holland suo jure. Her mother listed of Joan/Alice and Maud's
paternal grandmother listed as Elizabeth
Is there any documentation on who these two women were ? Or barring that,
any guesses ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
Hal Bradley
Hal Bradley
>From: CE Wood <woo...@msn.com>
>Date: Thu Jun 08 19:32:34 CDT 2006
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Stirnet Correction - Isabella le Zouche m John Lovel of Titchmarsh (d 1347)
>Per Theroff:
>
>1.3.1.3.Eon la Zouche, d.1279; m.before 13 Dec 1273 Millicent de
>Cantelupe
>1.3.1.3.1.William la Zouche (1276-1352); m.before 15 Feb 1296 Maud
>Lovel
>1.3.1.3.1.1.Eon la Zouche (1297/8-1326); m.before Jun 1322 Joan Inge
>1.3.1.3.1.1.2.Isabel, d.1349; m.John, Lord Lovel (d.1347)
>
CE Wood
true. IThanks for doing my homework for me.
CE Wood
WJho...@aol.com
hw.br...@verizon.net writes:
<< This relationship would make John Lovel and his wife first cousins once
removed. It is unlikely she was a Zouche. >>
Are you willing to specify the exact way they are related?
There is some missing link which I can't seem to find at genealogics nor at
stirnet that makes them first cousins. But what?
Thanks
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< Are you willing to specify the exact way they are related?
There is some missing link which I can't seem to find at genealogics nor at
stirnet that makes them first cousins. But what? >>
Got it. Maud is dau to John Lovel and Joan Roos.
Patricia Junkin
M. WILLIAM LA ZOUCHE OF HARYNGSWORTH CA. 1296-98.
----------
>From: WJho...@aol.com
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Stirnet Correction - Isabella le Zouche m John Lovel of Titchmarsh
(d 1347)
>Date: Thu, 8, 2006, 11:18 PM
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 6/9/2006 6:52:26 AM Pacific Standard Time,
paju...@cox.net writes:
I BELIEVE MAUDE LOVELL, DAUGHTER OF JOHN LOVELL D. 1311 AND ISABEL DE BOSCO
M. WILLIAM LA ZOUCHE OF HARYNGSWORTH CA. 1296-98.
BUT WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF BASED ON?
You must be trying to respond from an Ipod, I could never understand how
people use those little hand-held devices to do email :)
I think now we've hit the limit on possibilities for this line without
resorting to quoting sources.
Will
CE Wood
212-29), married first (AR 215-29), Isabel de Bois (de Bosco) and
second (AR 215-29), Joan de Ros
The Isabel in question married John Lovel, 3rd Lord Lovel, d. 3 Nov.
1314 (AR 215-31, CP VIII:218). But Isabel who?
CE Wood
Douglas Richardson
The identity of Isabel, wife of Sir John Lovel (died 1347), de jure 3rd
Lord Lovel of Titchmarsh, is presently uncertain. Complete Peerage, 8
(1932): 218 (sub Lovel) says Isabel is "said to be sister of William
Zouche [Lord Zouche, of Harringworth"], but adds in a footnote "there
is no authority for her parentage." Actually, this is only partly
correct, as printed secondary sources identify Isabel as either
"daughter" OR "sister" of William la Zouche, Lord Zouche of
Harringworth.
With specific regard to Complete Peerage's statement that Isabel was
possibly the sister of William la Zouche, Lord Zouche, this allegation
seems to be entirely without foundation insofar as William, 1st Lord
Zouche, is concerned. William, 1st Lord Zouche, had three known Zouche
sisters, all of whom are well documented in the records, and all of
whom were born well over twenty years before the likely birth of Isabel
Lovel. Thus, it is entirely impossible for Isabel Lovel to be William,
1st Lord Zouche's sister. On the other hand, it is possible that
Isabel Lovel was the sister of William la Zouche, 2nd Lord Zouche (died
1382), but this arrangement would make Isabel and her husband, Sir John
Lovel, related in the 2nd and 3rd degrees of kindred, which is
considered too closely related for this marriage to have been
permitted.
As for the possibility that Isabel Lovel was the daughter of William,
Lord Zouche, it it true that William la Zouche, 1st Lord Zouche of
Harringworth, had a daughter named Isabel, living 1326 (see C.P. 12(2)
(1959): 940, footnote i). But this Isabel la Zouche would have been a
1st cousin to Sir John Lovel, which again presumably makes them too
closely related for them to have intermarried. Further, the 1563
Visitation of Norfolk alleges that a "daughter of the Lord Zouche"
married Oliver Ingham, Lord Ingham (see Harvey et al. Vis. of Norfolk
1563 & 1613 (H.S.P. 32) (1891): 65). If Oliver Ingham's wife was
Lord Zouche's daughter, Isabel, it obviously would provide an
alternative history for Isabel la Zouche, precluding her marriage to
John Lovel.
If Isabel Lovel was not a Zouche, it is possible she was a Harcourt.
In the course of my research, I've learned that Isabel's grandson,
Ralph Lovel, was appointed rector of Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire, a
Harcourt family property, in 1405. Chronologically Isabel Lovel would
fit to be a daughter of John de Harcourt (died 1330), by his 1st wife,
Eleanor la Zouche. This parentage would make Isabel a niece to
William, 1st Lord Zouche, and remove the consanguinity issue between
her and John Lovel. This arrangement of the Lovel-Zouche family makes
a lot of sense, but to date I've found no direct evidence to support
this theory.
For what it is worth, this is what the printed literature has to say
about the parentage of Isabel, wife of Sir John Lovel, in order of date
of publication:
1. Bridges, Hist. & Antiqs. of Northamptonshire 2 (1791): 381-386
(parentage of wife Isabel not given).
2. Brydges, Collins' Peerage of England 7 (1812): 319-395 (wife
Isabel identified as "daughter of William, Lord Zouch of
Harringworth").
3. Burke, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited & Extinct Peerages (1883):
332-334 (sub Lovel) (wife Isabel identified as "sister of William,
Lord Zouche, of Harringworth").
4. Lyte, Hist. Notes of Some Somerset Manors (Somerset Rec. Soc. Extra
Ser. 1) (1931): 395-398 (parentage of wife Isabel not given).
5. C.P., 8 (1932): 218 (sub Lovel) (wife Isabel "said to be sister of
William Zouche [Lord Zouche, of Harringworth"].
6. Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 337: 6 (sub Lovel) (wife Isabel,
identified as daughter of William la Zouche, Lord Zouche of
Harringworth).
In summary, this matter deserves further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net