Roll Call of Mediaeval Interests
Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski
When things are quiet or on a tangent to which few may be contributing, some of the lists I belong to run an item referred to as the Roll Call of people's ancestral interests. This can serve to encourage greater list participation. It is of course entirely voluntary (which goes without saying, though I state this to allay fears/forestall criticism on that point).
I wonder if this could be adapted for gen-med? Folk might like to state some or all of their interests in an abbreviated form. There need not be anything further in a post than name (surname), dates (approximate even), locality (empire, country, county, town). Any relevant web links can be included. Reference can be made to the scope, length, and level of interest, and possible plans of study and/or publication. Notes can be made to sources of puzzles, exclusions (and caveats).
The implication would be that posters are interested in hearing about the folk they have mentioned, and in making connexions, learning about sources, etc.
If this is unacceptable, then I am sorry for wasting people's time.
Throwing my hat in the ring, I shall start the ball rolling (and the metaphors amixin') by way of example (imperfect though it may be):
SURNAME and some variants (there are forms beginning in A-, E-, H-, I, U, Y, so far)
(de) ERNLE, ERNLEY, ERNELEY, ERNELE, URNLEY, YERNELYE, EARNLY, EARNLEY, ERNLIE
(common misreadings: ERULE and ERULEY; source of confusion: ERLEY, ERLE, which can appear in the same document referring to true ERNLE family members, or, as in the case of ERLE get confused with ERNLE, due to similarity/proximity and ultimate intermarriage and pairing as in the current family of PLUNKET-ERNLE-ERLE-DRAX, where ERLE of Charborough is called ERNLE on occasion in print, which has been perpetuated elsewhere as in Leo's excellent [but like all of us, subject to human error] database in one instance I have pointed out to LvdP)
APPROXIMATE DATES of INTEREST
ca 1166-ca 1784 (male line thought to be extinct, but possibly surviving into the 20th and even 21st century in North America descended from a London/Berks. line that went first to Upper Canada/Ontario and then to Michigan, U.S.A.)
LOCALITY/LOCALITIES
origin: manor (parish) of EARNLEY, Hundred of La Manwode (aka Manwood, now Manhood), Rape of CHICHESTER, SUSSEX (portion of manor granted to Lucas de ERNELE aka Luke de ERNLE by his de Lancinges kin ca 1166)
ramifications: West Wittering, Almodington, Arundel, Chichester, and possibly Lewes and Brighton, Sussex (and elsewhere in Sussex)
Portmouth, Winchester, and Marwell, Isle of Wight, Hampshire
mediaeval London (Mark de Ernele, pepperer)
Fosbury and Bishop's Cannings, Wilts. (later other parts of Wilts., including my own line at Brembridge manor, Dilton, Westbury (now Westbury Leigh), Wilts.)
Dorset (from Sutton Benger, Wilts. to Chalbury, Dorset)
Cornwall (Truro)
Devon (Bideford)
London (various instances from the post-mediaeval period, notably the early modern perhaps leading to a survival in Berkshire/Hertfordshire and the New World)
Yorkshire (Alne, Coxwold)
Berkshire (Windsor, probable members of the Dorset branch in service in the royal household, 17th century)
Whitehall (head of Dorset branch a servant to Catherine of Braganza, consort of King Charles II)
WEBLINKS
Web Link (by my alterego 'vancouveriensis')
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernle
SCOPE/LENGTH/LEVEL OF INTEREST
One Name Study of All instances of the name originating in England with a view to establishing a complete tree or, if the surname be of multiple origin, trees. Possible publication of findings in due course. Intense interest since ca 2001.
EXCLUSIONS
Similar name found in Germany thus far unlinked and so tangential (or on back burner, though aware of existence). Some of from this source appear to have arrived in U.S.A. in 19th century.
Sincerely,
Richard
Richard Carruthers, M.A. (Oxon.)
(aka Carruthers-Zurowski)
Vancouver, British Columbia, CANADA
_________________________________________________________________
Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462
Leo
What a good idea. For a similar reason I encourage people to display
information, with or without a question. By disclosing information you give
others the chance to see if they can add, change or contribute in any way.
Sometimes questions are asked, and in answers sometimes other problems are
produced or explained.
What can I say about my interests? As my website tells I am interested from
Roman Emperors to Australian Aborigines and anyone in between. Is that
sufficient? I think not.
I am curious for selfish reasons about a specific family. Around 1500 when
Ferdinand and Isabella expelled the Jews from Spain, one family apparently
divided into three directions. The ones that went to England were called De
Pass, those to France were de Pas, and those to The Netherlands van de Pas.
The last can be found also in Belgium. I can go back with my own family only
so far and then a huge gap. Of course "the name is the same" might apply and
I have no link with those families. Also before my family was recorded there
was an artistic family van de Pas and one, Crispijn van de Pas/van de Passe,
made a famous black and white etching of Queen Elizabeth I.
In my mother's side there is also a legend. In one of the sea wars between
England and the Dutch, one Irishman on an English ship, with the surname
Cox, had both his legs shot off and taken to a hospital in Antwerp and
married a nurse. Never mind no legs, they had 7 or 9 sons. Their descendants
were artists, politicians, lord mayors and so on, which indicates to me that
I am not a descendant. In The Netherlands there are several families with
the surname Cox and those are not related to each other. But then, you never
know.
Any suggestions or leads greatly appreciated.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
Sincerely,
Richard
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Renia
etc) surname moved from Languedoc and/or Catalonia to the manor of
Wakefield in Yorkshire by 1315.
Diana Gale Matthiesen
As an American, my genealogical interest is in 1) identifying my immigrant
ancestors and 2) connecting those immigrants with their origins "across the
pond." In the case of my New England ancestors, especially those that arrived
during "The Great Migration," I'm largely an observer, not a researcher. There
are many researchers studying these immigrants, ones with far better resources
available to them than I have, so I leave that research to them. Some of these
are "gateway" ancestors (e.g., Olive WELBY, Martha BULKELEY, etc.), hence my
interest in following this list.
My own research is focused on my Pennsylvania Deutsch and southern ancestry,
which has been little studied, by comparison. I see DNA testing as the only way
to break down these brick walls and, in the case of my PA Deutsch ancestry, we
have succeeded. With six DNA projects to run, I find I have little time to do
"paper" genealogy any more, except as it relates to my projects.
Diana
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Richard Carruthers a.k.a.
Carruthers-Zurowski
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 8:47 PM
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Roll Call of Mediaeval Interests
>
>
> When things are quiet or on a tangent to which few may be
> contributing, some of the lists I belong to run an item
> referred to as the Roll Call of people's ancestral interests.
> This can serve to encourage greater list participation. It is
> of course entirely voluntary (which goes without saying,
> though I state this to allay fears/forestall criticism on that point).
>
<snip>
Matt Tompkins
Renia, are you discounting all possibility that the surname arose
independently in the two locations? Surely it is possible, even
probable, that there is no connection between the Yorkshire Pallisers
and those in Langudoc/Catalonia?
Matt Tompkins
Denis Beauregard
<ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
Guyenne and Gascony, not far from Languedoc, were owned by Henry II
after he married Alienor d'Aquitaine, so the English were not far from
Languedoc at that time. So, the move could be from Languedoc to
Gascony during or before Henry II, and then to England.
However, from a probability point of view and without documents, I
would prefer 2 different families as suggested by Matt.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
Sur cédérom à 1775 - On CD-ROM to 1775
Renia
There are more Pallisers in Spain than there are in England, of that
spelling. Pelissier abounds in France, but during the medieval period,
assorted spellings were around. I have not found one Palliser in England
prior to 1315, nor even a remote variant of it. Besides, the family in
the Languedoc shares the coat of arms of the Pallisers of Yorkshire.
Nathaniel Taylor
Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
That's interesting -- are the arms attested that early (14th c.) for
both families? And where was the family in Languedoc?
As it's an essentially occupational surname, the default assumption
would be that those who used it in different locales were unlikely to be
related, but the use of arms may link the two families -- essentially
tradespeople made good, early, and established as armigerous in both
England and Plantagenet Guyenne during the Hundred Years' War?
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
Renia
It's long been held to have been an occupational surname, but I think
that is an error. In England, the origins are within a 30-mile radius,
and the same was true even early in the 20th century, notwithstanding
those who drifted in and out of London. This suggests a common origin
for English Pallisers, rather than one actually springing from a "maker
of palings and fences". The occupational word was still used in the 16th
century, and the earliest "palisers" I have found, already had other
surnames.
In Spain, the occupational word derives from someone who works with furs
or pelts.
The Pallicers in Langedoc came from Castres, near Albi, and had a
castle, according to internet sources. They escaped from the
Albingensian Crusade, and settled in Catalonia. However, some seem to
have stayed in the Castres area.
Nathaniel Taylor
Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
Yes, I thought first of this meaning of 'pellise' rather than Reaney &
Wilson's definition. I think it's a not-uncommon surname in
12th-century records in Catalonia - Languedoc. So if as a surname it
doesn't have independent points of origin in England, it might still in
the Midi. There, occupational bynames appear frequently in charters
from about 1150 onward (and sometimes earlier), and it is also quite
possible that a family who had come up in the world might have continued
using such a surname when no longer filling the occupation, even by the
13th c. It's possible that this one particular 'made-good' family of
former pellicers became established in both places. It would be
interesting to see the evidence you've gleaned, including the use of the
arms, laid out.
James Dempster
<nlta...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
> It's possible that this one particular 'made-good' family of
>former pellicers became established in both places. It would be
>interesting to see the evidence you've gleaned, including the use of the
>arms, laid out.
>
>Nat Taylor
>a genealogist's sketchbook:
>http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
All the Palliser entries in Burkes General Armory (BGA) - as a start -
are based on
Per Pale Argent and Sable three lions rampant counterchanged.
These armigerous Pallisers appear to be centred on Newby-Super-Wisk
and North Deighton (both Yorkshire) with branches that moved to County
Wexford in the 17th century. There was a short lived Baronetcy (of
Castletown, County Wexford) in the family (cr1773-ext 1868).
Interestingly BGA has
Pelissier (granted 1741 to Rev John Pelissier DD, Senior Fellow
Trinity College Dubllin, son of Capt Abel Pelissier of Castres,
Languedoc, France who went to Ireland with William III in 1690).
Argent on a cross Azure a bezant between four fleurs de lys Or on a
chief Gules a lion passant guardant of the third.
The chief (a lion of England) was most commonly an augmentation so it
may be possible to find out more about the Captain (since he is more
likely to have done something worthy of such than a TCDacademic).
Looking up the more authoritative Dictionary of British Arms (Vol 1)
which covers arms up to 1530, there are no entries for Per Pale Argent
and Sable three lions rampant counterchanged nor for Palliser.
Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire 1665-6 (p94) shows a short and
(since it starts with the parents of a man who was living aged 59 in
1665) probably accurate genealogy of the Pallesers of Newby of 4
generations. It records the arms with the three lions but notes
"Respite given for proofe of these arms but nothing done in it" This
rather suggests that they had nothing proving either ancient use of
the arms or a grant by authority.
Rietstap' Armorial Generale(v2 p378) gives only one entry for
Palliser, being the same arms as the Yorkshire branch borne by one of
the Irish baronets who descended from them. (nothing under Palisser or
Palesser)
Under Pelissier (v2 p405) there are eleven French families listed
mainly from the south & west and including a Napoleon III Duke
(Crimean War General). None of them bear arms anything like those of
the Yorkshire families or the TCD academic.
I wonder if the tale of the Yorkshire branch being founded by someone
from the Languedoc has come about in Ireland through the conflation of
the two origins.
James
Ian Goddard
Whereabouts do you have them in the manor of Wakefield in 1315? In the
1379 Subsidy Roll there's a Thomas Palysser & his wife Agnes at
Carleton, Pontefract and the rest seem to be further north. However, in
1315 the Godards were in Snaith but by 1379 they were in Leeds &
Rotherham instead.
In relation to the occupational origin I note there was a William
Palycemaker & his wife in Arkendale.
Did the Warennes have any interests in any of the continental areas
where the Pallisers were found? If so the move may have been made under
their influence.
--
Ian
The Hotmail address is my spam-bin. Real mail address is iang
at austonley org uk
Renia
> On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:44:40 -0400, Nathaniel Taylor
> <nlta...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
>
>
>> It's possible that this one particular 'made-good' family of
>> former pellicers became established in both places. It would be
>> interesting to see the evidence you've gleaned, including the use of the
>> arms, laid out.
>>
>> Nat Taylor
>> a genealogist's sketchbook:
>> http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
>
>
> All the Palliser entries in Burkes General Armory (BGA) - as a start -
> are based on
>
> Per Pale Argent and Sable three lions rampant counterchanged.
>
> These armigerous Pallisers appear to be centred on Newby-Super-Wisk
> and North Deighton (both Yorkshire) with branches that moved to County
> Wexford in the 17th century. There was a short lived Baronetcy (of
> Castletown, County Wexford) in the family (cr1773-ext 1868).
The baronetcy was created for Admiral Sir Hugh Palliser, who died in
1793, with remainder to his nephew, who adopted the Palliser surname.
> Interestingly BGA has
>
> Pelissier (granted 1741 to Rev John Pelissier DD, Senior Fellow
> Trinity College Dubllin, son of Capt Abel Pelissier of Castres,
> Languedoc, France who went to Ireland with William III in 1690).
Abel was a Huguenot who settled in London in the late 16th century
before going to Ireland. There is no know post-medieval connection
between Abel Pelissier and the Pallisers of Yorkshire.
> Argent on a cross Azure a bezant between four fleurs de lys Or on a
> chief Gules a lion passant guardant of the third.
>
> The chief (a lion of England) was most commonly an augmentation so it
> may be possible to find out more about the Captain (since he is more
> likely to have done something worthy of such than a TCDacademic).
>
> Looking up the more authoritative Dictionary of British Arms (Vol 1)
> which covers arms up to 1530, there are no entries for Per Pale Argent
> and Sable three lions rampant counterchanged nor for Palliser.
>
> Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire 1665-6 (p94) shows a short and
> (since it starts with the parents of a man who was living aged 59 in
> 1665) probably accurate genealogy of the Pallesers of Newby of 4
> generations. It records the arms with the three lions but notes
> "Respite given for proofe of these arms but nothing done in it" This
> rather suggests that they had nothing proving either ancient use of
> the arms or a grant by authority.
Exactly and it could be the case there was "no proofe", because the arms
were not granted in England.
The pedigree is accurate.
> Rietstap' Armorial Generale(v2 p378) gives only one entry for
> Palliser, being the same arms as the Yorkshire branch borne by one of
> the Irish baronets who descended from them. (nothing under Palisser or
> Palesser)
>
> Under Pelissier (v2 p405) there are eleven French families listed
> mainly from the south & west and including a Napoleon III Duke
> (Crimean War General). None of them bear arms anything like those of
> the Yorkshire families or the TCD academic.
>
> I wonder if the tale of the Yorkshire branch being founded by someone
> from the Languedoc has come about in Ireland through the conflation of
> the two origins.
There was no tale. The theory is my own. I have written up this theory
in this month's journal of the Guild of One Name Studies.
Renia
> Renia wrote:
>> My main area of interest, at the moment, is how the Palliser (Palicer,
>> etc) surname moved from Languedoc and/or Catalonia to the manor of
>> Wakefield in Yorkshire by 1315.
>
> Whereabouts do you have them in the manor of Wakefield in 1315?
In the parish of Stainley, where there was still a Palliser family
living a few hundred years later.
James Dempster
wrote:
>> Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire 1665-6 (p94) shows a short and
>> (since it starts with the parents of a man who was living aged 59 in
>> 1665) probably accurate genealogy of the Pallesers of Newby of 4
>> generations. It records the arms with the three lions but notes
>> "Respite given for proofe of these arms but nothing done in it" This
>> rather suggests that they had nothing proving either ancient use of
>> the arms or a grant by authority.
>
>
>Exactly and it could be the case there was "no proofe", because the arms
>were not granted in England.
>
However, "proofe" for a visitation would not have to be legal
documentation, it could be arms engraved on plate, arms as an
architectural feature or on a monument, a seal matrix or a seal on a
dated document. The Visitations were looking for proof of ancient use
if proof in the form of a grant was not available.
If, as you claim, the two branches were separate by 1315 and yet bore
the same arms then the arms should pre-date 1315 (making them quite
early) yet the Dictionary of British Arms (which attempts to list all
arms *used* in Britain pre-1530) does not know them, even though it
has already got past all the entries for "Per Pale, 3 beasts".
On the principal of William of Occam the much more likely explanation
is that they had assumed them recently (between 1530 and 1665) on no
authority. This is especially the case given that they family appear
(by the marriages shown in the Visitation) to be on the
merchant/gentry cusp and thus exatly the sort of people who would have
been so doing.
Neither have you addressed your earlier claim that the
>>Besides, the family in
>> the Languedoc shares the coat of arms of the Pallisers of Yorkshire.
None of those in Rietstap bear any resemblance so your statement is
unverified and you have offered no evidence.
>There was no tale. The theory is my own. I have written up this theory
>in this month's journal of the Guild of One Name Studies.
So there is an Irish Pelissier who claims descent from someone from
the Languedoc and a group of Yorkshire Pallisers who just happen also
to have moved to Ireland and the two are not known to be related and
yet you claim that theyre all originally Occitan. Hmmm.
James
Ian Goddard
I didn't know that was in the manor of Wakefield although it does agree
with the 1379 subsidy roll. Are you mixing up Stainley with Stanley?
Renia
> Renia wrote:
>> Ian Goddard wrote:
>>> Renia wrote:
>>>> My main area of interest, at the moment, is how the Palliser
>>>> (Palicer, etc) surname moved from Languedoc and/or Catalonia to the
>>>> manor of Wakefield in Yorkshire by 1315.
>>>
>>> Whereabouts do you have them in the manor of Wakefield in 1315?
>>
>>
>> In the parish of Stainley, where there was still a Palliser family
>> living a few hundred years later.
>
> I didn't know that was in the manor of Wakefield although it does agree
> with the 1379 subsidy roll. Are you mixing up Stainley with Stanley?
Sorry. Typo. Stanley it is! (And, sorry, the later family was in Stainley.)
Matt Tompkins
> There are more Pallisers in Spain than there are in England, of that
> spelling. Pelissier abounds in France, but during the medieval period,
> assorted spellings were around. I have not found one Palliser in England
> prior to 1315, nor even a remote variant of it. Besides, the family in
> the Languedoc shares the coat of arms of the Pallisers of Yorkshire.
On Apr 12, 5:18 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
> It's long been held to have been an occupational surname, but I think
> that is an error. In England, the origins are within a 30-mile radius,
> and the same was true even early in the 20th century, notwithstanding
> those who drifted in and out of London. This suggests a common origin
> for English Pallisers, rather than one actually springing from a "maker
> of palings and fences". The occupational word was still used in the 16th
> century, and the earliest "palisers" I have found, already had other
> surnames.
That the surname has not been found before 1315 does not mean that it
must have arrived from overseas. Many English surnames were not
adopted until the fourteenth century, or in the north of England until
even later, and it is not at all uncommon for surnames of undoubted
English origin not to be recorded before the early fourteenth
century. Especially peasant surnames (my own name, Tompkins, is an
example).
Nor does an apparent origin in just one area of England mean that it
cannot have been an English occupational surname. To quote the late
great Richard McKinley, ‘There are some occupational surnames which
were originally found only within limited areas, and these include
some names which have been and still are quite numerous. In some
instances several different terms were in use to describe a single
occupation, with each term being current within one geographical area
and not generally found somewhere else.’ (History of British Surnames,
143.) And of course, an occupational surname might arise in more than
one place but later die out in all but one.
In fact Reaney mentions another fourteenth-century occurrence of
Palliser, in Staffordshire – one Richard Palicer, labourer, who paid
the poll tax in Brewood in 1381. In the fifty years since Reaney
found his two fourteenth-century examples, in the Wakefield court
rolls and the Staffordshire poll tax, many more early records of these
types have been published and I suspect one or two other similarly
early examples could now be found.
The Staffordshire Richard Palicer was a labourer, and from the nature
of the references to them in the Wakefield court rolls and the 1379
poll tax (in which they paid only 4d, placing them in the lowest
possible tax band) the fourteenth-century Yorkshire Pallisers also
look to have been fairly typical English peasants. It seems unlikely
that such people would have been recent immigrants from Languedoc.
It must also be unlikely that such people were armigerous, so even if
they were immigrants, any arms used by their seventeenth-century
descendants are likely to have been a recent assumption and not
inherited from a Languedoc ancestor.
By the way, the surname may have had a slightly wider meaning than
just ‘maker of palings and fences’. The Anglo-Norman Dictionary has
the following entry for 'paliser':
s. maker of fences: touz les forestiers, parkers, guarrenners,
palisers,
bondgardes de nostre forest GAUNT1 ii 330.
Although the meaning is stated to be ‘maker of fences’, the example
given rather points to a slightly different meaning - that a paliser
was
a forest official, presumably someone responsible for maintaining or
policing a boundary fence or pale.
Matt Tompkins
Ian Goddard
So that ties the 1379 family in Carleton in with 1315 - Carleton &
Stanley are only about 10 miles apart. It also ties in another of the
1379 families in Brearton with your later family as that's quite close
to Stainley.
Monica Kanellis
(focus right now is the court of Henry VIII):
Hungerford family of Farley and (esp.) Down Ampney c 1300 - 1600. The
Hungerfords were cousins of Jane Seymour and Elizabeth Blount, mother of
Henry Fitzroy.
main puzzle here, who was the Ursula Ferrers (c 1530-1598) who married
Edmund Hungerford in 1548?
Savage family of Clifton, Cheshire c 1450- 1600
Main interest here, anything about Mary Savage daughter of Sir John Savage
1493-1528 and stepdaughter of Sir William Brereton executed 1536 "for
matters touching Anne Boleyn."
her siblings were Sir John Savage (1524-1597), Margaret Savage Bulkely
(1522-?), Henry (Harry) Savage (1526 - ?), Henry Brereton (c 1533 - ?),
Thomas Brereton (c.1533- 1587).
Mary's mother was Elizabeth Somerset Savage Brereton, 2nd cousin of Henry
VIII on both mother's and father's sides.
other related families: Darell of Littlecote;
other puzzles: Who were John Stile (d. 1569) and Richard Cheyney,
underaldermen of Marlborough circa 1565? Was it the latter who later married
John Stile's widow, Eleanor? Who was John Lovatt, mayor of Marlborough circa
1569?
best,
MK
Renia
> On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:43:31 +0300, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr>
> wrote:
>
>
>>> Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire 1665-6 (p94) shows a short and
>>> (since it starts with the parents of a man who was living aged 59 in
>>> 1665) probably accurate genealogy of the Pallesers of Newby of 4
>>> generations. It records the arms with the three lions but notes
>>> "Respite given for proofe of these arms but nothing done in it" This
>>> rather suggests that they had nothing proving either ancient use of
>>> the arms or a grant by authority.
>>
>> Exactly and it could be the case there was "no proofe", because the arms
>> were not granted in England.
>>
> However, "proofe" for a visitation would not have to be legal
> documentation, it could be arms engraved on plate, arms as an
> architectural feature or on a monument, a seal matrix or a seal on a
> dated document. The Visitations were looking for proof of ancient use
> if proof in the form of a grant was not available.
Interesting, thank you. The family was not the only armigerous one. A
few miles away, the will of another Palliser (relationship not yet
established) stated himself to be armigerous. (The word used was armerer.)
> If, as you claim, the two branches were separate by 1315 and yet bore
> the same arms then the arms should pre-date 1315 (making them quite
> early) yet the Dictionary of British Arms (which attempts to list all
> arms *used* in Britain pre-1530) does not know them, even though it
> has already got past all the entries for "Per Pale, 3 beasts".
If the family knew of their own "ancient" arms, they may have had no
"samples" to show the visitation herald, but I do take your point.
Identical arms were lodged at the College of Arms in 1560 by a family of
a very different surname, who adopted a similar surname to Palliser. I
have found no relationship between the two families who came from
completely different parts of the country. (Perhaps a daughter of one
family married into the other and tried to carry the name on? I don't know.)
> On the principal of William of Occam the much more likely explanation
> is that they had assumed them recently (between 1530 and 1665) on no
> authority. This is especially the case given that they family appear
> (by the marriages shown in the Visitation) to be on the
> merchant/gentry cusp and thus exatly the sort of people who would have
> been so doing.
>
> Neither have you addressed your earlier claim that the
>
>>> Besides, the family in
>>> the Languedoc shares the coat of arms of the Pallisers of Yorkshire.
I've been answering specific statements by posters, one at a time.
> None of those in Rietstap bear any resemblance so your statement is
> unverified and you have offered no evidence.
I cannot contradict you and I can offer no other evidence, so I had
nothing to add.
I am not an examination candidate and you are not an examiner.
>> There was no tale. The theory is my own. I have written up this theory
>> in this month's journal of the Guild of One Name Studies.
>
> So there is an Irish Pelissier who claims descent from someone from
> the Languedoc and a group of Yorkshire Pallisers who just happen also
> to have moved to Ireland and the two are not known to be related and
> yet you claim that theyre all originally Occitan. Hmmm.
I make no such claim. It is a theory I am working on. I have no
intention of reciting all my evidence and information here, but thank
you for your interest. As to Abel Pelissier, I had no idea he was
originally from Castres until AFTER I had found medieval Pallisers (or
similar) in Castres.
Renia
> Renia wrote:
>> Ian Goddard wrote:
>>> Renia wrote:
>>>> Ian Goddard wrote:
>>>>> Renia wrote:
>>>>>> My main area of interest, at the moment, is how the Palliser
>>>>>> (Palicer, etc) surname moved from Languedoc and/or Catalonia to
>>>>>> the manor of Wakefield in Yorkshire by 1315.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whereabouts do you have them in the manor of Wakefield in 1315?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the parish of Stainley, where there was still a Palliser family
>>>> living a few hundred years later.
>>>
>>> I didn't know that was in the manor of Wakefield although it does
>>> agree with the 1379 subsidy roll. Are you mixing up Stainley with
>>> Stanley?
>>
>>
>> Sorry. Typo. Stanley it is! (And, sorry, the later family was in
>> Stainley.)
>
> So that ties the 1379 family in Carleton in with 1315 - Carleton &
> Stanley are only about 10 miles apart. It also ties in another of the
> 1379 families in Brearton with your later family as that's quite close
> to Stainley.
Indeed. They hovered around the same radius for centuries, then radiated
predominantly northwards, with sprinklings in other parts of the country.
wjhonson
>
> main puzzle here, who was the Ursula Ferrers (c 1530-1598) who married
> Edmund Hungerford in 1548?
>
I don't believe there is any evidence on what decade Ursula was born,
nor on what year they married. If you believe, as you seem to do,
that she is identical with the Ursula wife of Edmund Hungerford buried
in 1598 at Hungerford, then you probabably also have to account for
the editor of that CTeG V 5 article stating that she was a FROGNAL
not a Ferrers. Three children baptised at Hungerford for Edmond
apparently identical to this one in 1560, 1563, 1568. Edmond buried
there 1599.
Will
Monica Kanellis
J.E. Jackson, who did extensive research on this family, says "some say
Ursula Frognall, but she was wife to his brother Edward Hungerford". As for
the decade she was born, I don't know, which is why I said circa 1530. If
the marriage is the one I think it is of Edmund Hungerford and Ursula (no
surname given) it took place June 26, 1548 in Saint Mary Magdalene, Old Fish
St., London. I know of no other Edmund Hungerfords who married Ursulas at
this (or any other) period. She was presumably of age then. I believe the
children you cite are theirs.
best, MK
Renia
> On Apr 12, 5:00 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
>> There are more Pallisers in Spain than there are in England, of that
>> spelling. Pelissier abounds in France, but during the medieval period,
>> assorted spellings were around. I have not found one Palliser in England
>> prior to 1315, nor even a remote variant of it. Besides, the family in
>> the Languedoc shares the coat of arms of the Pallisers of Yorkshire.
>
> On Apr 12, 5:18 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
>> It's long been held to have been an occupational surname, but I think
>> that is an error. In England, the origins are within a 30-mile radius,
>> and the same was true even early in the 20th century, notwithstanding
>> those who drifted in and out of London. This suggests a common origin
>> for English Pallisers, rather than one actually springing from a "maker
>> of palings and fences". The occupational word was still used in the 16th
>> century, and the earliest "palisers" I have found, already had other
>> surnames.
>
>
> That the surname has not been found before 1315 does not mean that it
> must have arrived from overseas.
Indeed. It is only a theory, and one of a few I am working on.
> Many English surnames were not
> adopted until the fourteenth century, or in the north of England until
> even later, and it is not at all uncommon for surnames of undoubted
> English origin not to be recorded before the early fourteenth
> century. Especially peasant surnames (my own name, Tompkins, is an
> example).
I have the full run of the published Wakefield Court Rolls and the court
rolls for the village in the parish where the armigerous Pallisers
lived. There are many surnames in them, from the earliest times. Some
people are even identifiable by different "surnames". Maybe the
Pallisers some of them.
> Nor does an apparent origin in just one area of England mean that it
> cannot have been an English occupational surname.
I don't say it CANNOT be an occupational surname. I just suspect the
occupational name of Paliser was adopted by the family, rather than the
other way around.
> To quote the late
> great Richard McKinley, ‘There are some occupational surnames which
> were originally found only within limited areas, and these include
> some names which have been and still are quite numerous. In some
> instances several different terms were in use to describe a single
> occupation, with each term being current within one geographical area
> and not generally found somewhere else.’ (History of British Surnames,
> 143.) And of course, an occupational surname might arise in more than
> one place but later die out in all but one.
Indeed.
> In fact Reaney mentions another fourteenth-century occurrence of
> Palliser, in Staffordshire – one Richard Palicer, labourer, who paid
> the poll tax in Brewood in 1381. In the fifty years since Reaney
> found his two fourteenth-century examples, in the Wakefield court
> rolls and the Staffordshire poll tax, many more early records of these
> types have been published and I suspect one or two other similarly
> early examples could now be found.
In the late 14th century, yes, but not before 1315.
Thank you for the Staffordshire reference. That is a new one.
> The Staffordshire Richard Palicer was a labourer, and from the nature
> of the references to them in the Wakefield court rolls and the 1379
> poll tax (in which they paid only 4d, placing them in the lowest
> possible tax band) the fourteenth-century Yorkshire Pallisers also
> look to have been fairly typical English peasants.
We see labourers today as the lowest class of workmen, people without a
trade, skill or profession. But in the 14th century and beyond, a
labourer was not such a person, but someone who worked, probably on the
land, perhaps as opposed to owning it. I can't remember the detail now,
but I've seen someone (not a Palliser) referred to as a "labourer" when
they were actually much further up the social scale and financially
comfortable. In other words, labourers were not necessarily peasants and
peasants were not necessarily labourers. The Black Death changed the
employment nature of the country, and farm workers (or husbandmen) were
able to charge a fee for their labour.
> It seems unlikely
> that such people would have been recent immigrants from Languedoc.
The armigerous Pallisers of Yorkshire were up the social scale from
peasants. They were free tenants with manorial duties. If a Palliser
came from Spain or the Languedoc, it was possibly as someone's retainer
or servant.
> It must also be unlikely that such people were armigerous, so even if
> they were immigrants, any arms used by their seventeenth-century
> descendants are likely to have been a recent assumption and not
> inherited from a Languedoc ancestor.
In his will, one 15th century one had a silver belt and a helmet, so I
imagine he was a soldier, and not a poor one. On the accession of King
James VI, another was fined for refusing a knighthood.
> By the way, the surname may have had a slightly wider meaning than
> just ‘maker of palings and fences’. The Anglo-Norman Dictionary has
> the following entry for 'paliser':
>
> s. maker of fences: touz les forestiers, parkers, guarrenners,
> palisers,
> bondgardes de nostre forest GAUNT1 ii 330.
>
> Although the meaning is stated to be ‘maker of fences’, the example
> given rather points to a slightly different meaning - that a paliser
> was
> a forest official, presumably someone responsible for maintaining or
> policing a boundary fence or pale.
A comparatively recent French dictionary gave the meaning of "pallisser"
as "one who attaches vines to a wall". From this, I take a "paliser" to
be one who built wooden fence-like structures. But it would seem that
the English "paliser" could have wider responsibilities, such as
maintaining parks, such as Bearpark in County Durham.
wjhonson
> Hi Will,
>
> J.E. Jackson, who did extensive research on this family, says "some say
> Ursula Frognall, but she was wife to his brother Edward Hungerford". As for
> the decade she was born, I don't know, which is why I said circa 1530. If
> the marriage is the one I think it is of Edmund Hungerford and Ursula (no
> surname given) it took place June 26, 1548 in Saint Mary Magdalene, Old Fish
> St., London. I know of no other Edmund Hungerfords who married Ursulas at
> this (or any other) period. She was presumably of age then. I believe the
> children you cite are theirs.
>
> best, MK
>
I don't have any evidence that either of his brothers named Edward
ever married, nor ever had children. It's not wise to say circa 1530
when she could have been born as early as 1512 and as late as 1536.
To me that's 1512/36. Circa 1530 says "we have some reason for
assuming she was born around 1530" when we don't really. If we assume
she was the same person as the Ursula, wife of Edmund, and who this
Edmund having children baptised in the 1560s as I've said, than that's
the most we can really assume without building a house of cards on no
evidence.
Your Mr Jackson is probably mistaken that two brothers just happened
to both have wifes with the rather rare name of Ursula around the same
time. It's *possible* of course, it's just not likely. Much more
likely imho is that he or someone has conflated two "E Hungerfords"
into one person, or possibly one into two persons!
That's why collecting the exact specific sources is most important.
You should start right away :
For example wills from North Standen if there are any.
Monica Kanellis
I have a problem with my software as it doesn't allow me to put date ranges,
though I agree that would be ideal.
One thing I was considering (but it's completely speculative) is that the
two Ursulas could have been related. Frognall is an unusual name. Margaret
Ferrers, daughter of Edward Ferrers and Constance Brome married a Thomas
Frognall. And she had a sister named Ursula. One of her siblings might well
have had a daughter named Ursula also. Her brother, Edward (d 1578), for
example, had 4 daughters with Elizabeth Grey of Wood Bevington: Elizabeth,
Constance, and two others who are not named.
As for Edmund's brother, Edward, he actually had two younger brothers by
that name, one by each of his father's two wives. One was married to a
Dorothy Allen. I think he was the older of the two. I wish I had access to
Hungerfordia. Anyone know if I can I find it in Toronto?
best,
Monica
wjhonson
> One of her siblings might well
> have had a daughter named Ursula also. Her brother, Edward (d 1578), for
> example, had 4 daughters with Elizabeth Grey of Wood Bevington: Elizabeth,
> Constance, and two others who are not named.
>
> As for Edmund's brother, Edward, he actually had two younger brothers by
> that name, one by each of his father's two wives. One was married to a
> Dorothy Allen. I think he was the older of the two. I wish I had access to
> Hungerfordia. Anyone know if I can I find it in Toronto?
>
All "Can I find it in some physical library" questions are handled in
the following way.
Start here
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Sources
Select WorldCat
Type Hungerfordiana (not Hungerfordia)
melanie chesnel
according to Hachette the entymologie of all the french words to do
with "palisser" is "palis" - petit pieu pointu que l'on assemble à
d'autre pour former une clôture - clôture ainsis formée - this is
from the word "pal" -pieu dont l'extremité est aiguisée - from the
latin "palus" meaning stake. The english word pale -pointed piece of
wod for stake, fence etc also derives from "palus" via middle english
from old french "pal". This would suggest that if it were an english
occupational surname it must have been taken up at least at the time
middle english was spoken if not before from anglo french.
regards
melanie
Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski
Hi Monica,
HUNGERFORD and DARELL are both families intermarried with my ERNLE (Wiltshire branch).
As to your current puzzle re Ursula wife of Edmund/Edward Hungerford: I just checked the digitised pages of the original register for the marriage 1548 entry you mentioned, and confirmed that the bride's surname wasn't supplied.
Here is a reference I found via one of my favourite search methods: http://books.google.com/advanced_book_search using a blind proxy server
"Collectanea topographica et genealogica", volume 5ï؟½, page 359, 1838, by Frederic Madden, Bulkeley Bandinel, John Gough Nichols Full view available via google book search using a proxy server (I currently find www.proxiclub.info works well for me)
EXTRACTS
FROM THE REGISTERS OF WELFORD, BERKS, AND HUNGERFORD, AND BEDWYN PARVA,
WILTS; CHIEFLY RELATING TO THE FAMILY OF HUNGERFORD.
WELFORD.
The registers of Welford commence in
1559.
1559. Dorothea filia Edwardi Hungerford, sep. Apr. 20.
1563. Joanna Hungerford, sep. Ju. 2.
Langle filia Edwardi
Hungerford et uxoris ejus, bap. Junii 4.
1564. Johannes Hungerford filius Edwardi Hungerford
et uxoris ejus bap. Octobr. 15.
1567. Jana filia M" Hungerford et uxoris ejus bap.
Maij 15. 1569. Edwardus Hungerford sep. Sep. 15. 1572. Elina Hungerford
filia Mri Edwardi Hungerford, bap. Dec.
6; sep. Dec. 2, 1582.
HUNGERFORD.
The 17th daie of the
saide monthe (Sept.) 1571, deprted this mortall life Mr. Edmond Hungerford
of Weston, in the parish of Welford, in the countie of Berkes, beinge
now of this parishe.
The 29 daie of December 1598 was buried Misteris
Ursula Hungerford, the wife of Mr. Edmond Hungerford, esquier.
The last daie of January 1599, dep'ted this mortall
[life] Edmonde Hungerford of North Standen, esquier.
[Footnote]
Edmund Hungerford, who married Ursula Frognall, is placed in Hungerfordiana,
p. 16, as the second son of Sir Anthony Hungerford of
Down Ampney, co. Glouc. by his first wife, Jane Darell. Whether the
parties recorded in the two preceding extracts may be thus identified
will require confirmation ; but they may be considered as man and wife;
particularly as we find the baptism of an Ursula among the children of
Edmond, whose baptisms are as follow:
John, bapt. 23 Aug. 1560. Ursula, 25 Dec. 1563.
Edmond, 1 May 1568."
Regards,
Richard
Richard Carruthers, M.A. (Oxon.)
----------------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:51:25 -0400
> Subject: Roll Call of Mediaeval Interests
> From: monica....@gmail.com
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
>
> Hi Will
>
> I have a problem with my software as it doesn't allow me to put date ranges,
> though I agree that would be ideal.
>
> One thing I was considering (but it's completely speculative) is that the
> two Ursulas could have been related. Frognall is an unusual name. Margaret
> Ferrers, daughter of Edward Ferrers and Constance Brome married a Thomas
> Frognall. And she had a sister named Ursula. One of her siblings might well
> have had a daughter named Ursula also. Her brother, Edward (d 1578), for
> example, had 4 daughters with Elizabeth Grey of Wood Bevington: Elizabeth,
> Constance, and two others who are not named.
>
> As for Edmund's brother, Edward, he actually had two younger brothers by
> that name, one by each of his father's two wives. One was married to a
> Dorothy Allen. I think he was the older of the two. I wish I had access to
> Hungerfordia. Anyone know if I can I find it in Toronto?
>
> best,
>
> Monica
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 8:23 PM, wjhonson wrote:
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> > GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> >
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail & Messenger are available on your phone. Try now.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724461
Ian Goddard
Yorks. More or less the area designated as Holne in the Wakefield court
rolls. Although there has been a lot of change in the last half century
there seems to have been a great deal of continuity before that. The
roll-call of surnames in, say a 1950s copy of the local paper would be
similar to that of a diary written in the 1730s & '40s and many of those
names are found in the PRs of the mid C16th and in turn many of those
are in the court rolls of the C14th and the subsidy roll of 1379. A
good number are derived from placenames found in the court rolls. No
nobility, let alone royalty lived in the area.
Links from the late C13th/early C14th Godard family of Snaith to the
above area.
Passing interest in the origins of Sir John Godard, sometime High
Sheriff of Yorks although there's particular evidence that he was
connected to the above family.
lostcopper
mentioned before on this List is that of several Huguenot lines. Post-
medieval members of these lines were involved in the founding of
Manakin, Virginia, but I am interested in their older French roots. I
have not done much research in French records &, unlike everyone else
on this List, do not read French well enough to make sense of it. I am
interested in the ancestors of Daniel GUERRANT, 1663-1730, whose
immediate ancestors appear to have been one Henri Guerin & Ruth
Starbo. Daniel's wife was Marie l'Orange, said to have been born in La
Rochelle, Manche, Normandy. I am also looking for the ancestors of his
daughter-in-law's family, TRABUE, who appear to have been from
Montauban, Guyenne. Also VERRUEIL from Rouen, PRODHOMME & TEVENIN,
possibly from Switzerland. Finally, the ancestors of Daniel PERREAU &
his wife Marie Rapine FARCY. The information I have found so far has
centered on the immigration of these families to Virginia Colony
during the late 17th & early 18th centuries. Any help would be
appreciated as the Huguenot context is a new one for me.
Thanks, Bronwen Edwards
Monica Kanellis
I am particularly interested in the Thomas Ernley who married Bridget
Franklin. Bridget Franklin and her father, Richard Franklin of
Overton, Wilts. are the heirs of the will of Geoffrey Daniels of St.
Margarets, Preshute (see bio in: The House of Commons: 1509 - 1558 ;
1, Appendices, constituencies ..., Volume 4, Stanley Bindoff).
"His interest in three Monmouthshire manors he left to Bridget,
daughter of Richard Franklin of Overton, Wiltshire, whom he named with
her father as executor. Bridget Franklin may already have been
betrothed to William Erneley, scion of a prominent county family, for
his father John Erneley of Bishops Cannings was named an overseer with
Robert Kingsmill. It is therefore probable that Daniell was childless
at his death, which took palce between 9 July 1558, when the will was
made, and 4 Feb. 1561, when it was proved."
Geoffrey was the son of Piers Daniell of Budworth by Margaret "da. and
h. of one Savage of Cheshire." He was born "by 1516" and his will was
proved in 1561. Other sources I will have to dig up give Margaret as
being of Clifton, Cheshire. I would like to know who this Margaret is.
If she is a Savage of Clifton, then she must be descended from Sir
John Savage who died in 1527. He was the son (the only one on record)
of Sir John Savage who died 1492 in Boulogne and Dorothy Vernon.
Geoffrey's wife interests me, as she was the widow of a Richard
Hitchcock and I can't help wondering if she is the "Margaret Daniell"
mentioned in Mary Savage Hitchcock's will of 1570.
Thanks for the Welford extracts, I have seen these. It would be nice
to know what knowledge the commentator had of Ursula Frognell. I've
been able to find nothing about her. Are there any other references to
her in any context?
best,
Monica
2010/4/13 Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski <leli...@hotmail.com>
>
> Hi Monica,
>
> HUNGERFORD and DARELL are both families intermarried with my ERNLE (Wiltshire branch).
>
> As to your current puzzle re Ursula wife of Edmund/Edward Hungerford: I just checked the digitised pages of the original register for the marriage 1548 entry you mentioned, and confirmed that the bride's surname wasn't supplied.
>
> Here is a reference I found via one of my favourite search methods: http://books.google.com/advanced_book_search using a blind proxy server
>
> "Collectanea topographica et genealogica", volume 5, page 359, 1838, by Frederic Madden, Bulkeley Bandinel, John Gough Nichols Full view available via google book search using a proxy server (I currently find www.proxiclub.info works well for me)
> > > -------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> > > GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> > >
> >
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
> ________________________________
> Hotmail & Messenger. Get them on your phone now.
Richard Carruthers a.k.a. Carruthers-Zurowski
Hello Monica (et al.),
Thank you for your message.
I actually descend from Thomas ERNLE and his wife Bridget daughter of Richard FRANKLIN, of Overton, Wilts. (and Leo has kindly accepted my contributions on this and added them to his wonderful database).
The bit you quote from the History of Parliament, and is in error, I think, when it states that Bridget was betrothed to William ERNLE. There was, as far as my research has so far discovered, no contemporary member of the Wiltshire branch of the family named William, who was free to marry (William of All Cannings, Thomas's uncle, was aged, and already married), and as she, of course, in fact married Thomas ERNLE, I expect it was an error in transcription or possibly in some original record I have yet to discover.
Thomas ERNLE (I) (as I call him) was the 2nd son of John ERNLE (d. 1572), Esq., of Burton (aka Bourton), Bishop's Cannings, Wilts., by his wife Mary (not Catherine as is sometimes stated in error), daughter of William HYDE, Esq., of Denchworth, Berks (one of his 19 children!).
The elder ERNLE line found in most publications (and now represented in the distaff line by the family of PLUNKETT-ERNLE-ERLE-DRAX, of Charborough Park, Dorset, now headed by current British Tory candidate Richard DRAX (adopted short form for politics)) descends from Michael ERNLE, Esq., Thomas's eldest brother. (There was a younger brother, Francis ERNLE, of Yatesbury, Wilts., and a sister Anne who married Robert PARTRIDGE, of Glos.) See the 1565 Visitation of Wilts., and the Harleian Soc.'s version of the 1623 Vis. Wilts.
Thomas ERNLE (I)(d. 1595, and was bur. 1595 in Westbury parish, Wilts.). He and Bridget were lessees of the manor of Brembridge from his kinsman Ralf FAUKENER (possibly a member of the family of MICHELGROVE alias FAWCONER or FALCONER with which the Sussex ERNLE family was mixed up). I have the documents from the Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office (now renamed). Brembridge (otherwise Bremeridge etc.) lies in Dilton (now Dilton Marsh), a chapelry of Westbury (now Westbury Leigh), Wilts., and is still inhabited.
Thomas ERNLE (I) also acquired the lease of the manor of Abingdon Court, Cricklade St Sampson, Wilts., which was later held by his son and heir, and along with it enjoyed the advowson to Cricklade St Sampson parish church, one of the two parishes in the ancient minting borough of Cricklade (near the source of the Thames).
Thomas ERNLE (I) and Bridget his wife had issue at least 14 children, of whom the eldest son, Thomas ERNLE (II) (my direct ancestor) is often left out, because he gets little mention in his father's will as he was separately provided for. There were 10 sons and 4 daughters, and yet, the line may well be extinct, though it lingered at Dilton into the late 18th century, dying out within a year or so of the last member of the senior line, the self-styled clerical baronet, Sir Edward ERNLE, rector of Avington, Berks. (I have discovered that one daughter was the mother of a regicide!)
Thomas ERNLE (II)(ca 1574/75 [age calculated from father's IPM] bur. 1639, Whiteparish, Wilts.) married Praxed otherwise Praxeda LAMBE (daughter of John LAMBE, Esq., of Coulston [now East Coulston], Wilts.)(not to be confused with another Praxeda LAMBE of this family who married a LONG).
Thomas and Praxed had issue, as far as I have discovered, three children: Cicely/Cecilia (m. Alexander STAPLES), Thomas (III, my ancestor) and Frances.
Thomas (III) baptised at Dilton in 1614, was of Bradon (otherwise Braydon, i.e. the forest of Bradon), Purton, Wilts. (actually Bradon was then an extra-parochial place, but that's what his will says). Will dated Nov. 1694, and pr. Archdeaconry of Wilts., 1694, but burial entry not extant as the Purton register has a gap just then). He married Jane, daughter of Philip JACOBSON, gent., King's Jeweller, of St Margaret's New Fish Street, Billingsgate ward, City of London, who accquired extensive lands in Bradon Forest on Crown lease in partial recompense for extensive loans he made to King James I and King Charles I. He was a native of Antwerp, then in the Duchy of Brabant, and is recorded in the Visitation of London, 1623-4, with his (short) pedigree and coat of arms. James I wouldn't allow to be naturalised because, as a foreigner, he was subject to double taxation which was a source of royal revenue the king was loath to give up. He was, however, eventually naturalised under Charles I. His first wife was a London-born woman also of Dutch/Flemish extraction, Elizabeth van Soldt, but she died and he married his daughter Jane's sister-in-law, Frances Ernle, and had further issue, a daughter Frances JACOBSON, who rather unhelpfully married a Wiltshire gent. surnamed JACOB. There is a chancery suit which goes into much of this available online via the English Reports. Philip JACOBSON was a member of the Dutch Church, Austin Friars (DCAF), and is mentioned in various contexts in their records. His brother, Peter JACOBS otherwise JACOBSON, was great-grandfather of Sir John VANBRUGH, of Castle Howard and other fame (see the Dictionary of National Biography).
Thomas ERNLE (III), gent., of Bradon, Purton, Wilts. and his wife Jane (JACOBSON)(aka Joanna in the DCAF register) had issue at least one son, Thomas (IV), gent, of Estcott, Crudwell, Wilts., who predeceased his father, by a few months, having failed to make a will. His widow, Marie NN, administered his estate, and his surviving children (Thomas V had died young), Banister and Cornelia are named in his father's will. Banister went up to London, and became a weaver, which seems rather a fall from gentility. He married Ann HUGGINS, and had issue at least four children (of whom two were sons, John and William), and I am trying to trace their fates, and descendants, if any (I suspect a link with later ERNLE folk in the Home Counties, but have yet to find any clear indication).
Thomas (III) and Jane also had a number of daughters, Jane (married William BAKER), Practsey (presumably a pet-form of Praxed, a very uncommon English name in the post-Reformation period, and a wonderful onomastic clue), Bridget (the only member of the family whose burial, unmarried, I found in the Purton PRs), Elizabeth (married Richard ELBOROUGH, otherwise ELBRO or ELBRA, of Purton, Wilts.) and my ancestress, Cisalia, otherwise Sis, who married at Malmesbury parish church (the former Abbey church) of St Paul on 17 Aug. 1672 (a date I discovered on more recent 17 Aug., oddly enough; the sort of weird confluence of dates (despite the change in calendars since then) that the Wiltshire antiquarian John AUBREY would have enjoyed), to Robert PHILLIPS alias MAJOR, gent. (later yeoman in his 1707 PCC will), of Purton, Wilts.
Their eldest child, a daughter, is my gateway ancestress, Cis PHILLIPS otherwise MAJOR (1672/3-1757). who was married (1) to John HOLLIDAY, yeoman, of Purton, Wilts., and (2) 10 May 1703, Lydiard Tregoz, Wilts., to my ancestor, William LARGE, yeoman of Purton, Wilts. (1679-1747). I know about Cis thanks to Peter Wilson Coldham's study of American references in English wills, as Cis's brother John PHILLIPS (alias MAJOR), having turned Quaker, went out to Pennsylvania colony about 1715/16, (along with his wife, Hannah SHURMER (from a Purton Quaker family, and whose brother Benjamin SHURMER [not SHURMAN or SHERMAN as is sometimes found in print] was already in the colony), and, dying circa 1727 left an estate there that was contested some 30-odd years after his death, by Richard LARGE (1703-1773, my ancestor) and John LARGE (1712-1801), sons of Cis LARGE whose maiden name was PHILLIPS (to paraphrase what they wrote to the Pennsylvania Company in London in the 1760s when seeking their "rightful inheritance" as near heirs to their uncle).
John PHILLIPS of the northern liberties of Philadelphia, previously of Purton, Wilts., was charged in his father Robert's will with looking after his deceased brother-in-law John HOLLIDAY's children, as his sister had remarried and started another family with Wm LARGE.
He took at least one nephew, John HOLLIDAY, with him to Pennsylvania. They ended up at Duck Creek, Kent county, Delaware (as that part of PA later became). This John HOLLIDAY married and had issue, including the Loyalist Quaker and sometime member of Delaware colonial legislature, Robert HOLLIDAY. I believe there must be many descendants of this family in the U.S.A. to this day, all of whom are of royal descent via their ERNLE blood. I doubt, however, whether this line will make it into the next edition of Douglas Richardson's book. My own line, LARGE, did not leave Wiltshire for North America (Canada West, now Ontario) until 1852.
I have been working at compiling a genealogy of the ERNLE (and vars) family for some years, and currently have composed in typescript their indented narrative pedigree format stemming from ca 1406 into the late 18th century covering over 100-pages with sources. The earlier generations are as yet still unready for inclusion as I cannot yet clarify all the necessary filiations, though I suspect the pedigree extends back to the "original" Luke of Earnley aka Lucas de ERNELE who received a grant of part of the manor of EARNLEY, Sussex from his de Lancinges nephew in the late 12th century which was later confirmed by his great-niece Bertha (Victoria County History of Sussex, Earnley parish, various references).
Bridget FRANKLIN's father is the source of one of my many puzzles about my ERNLE (and allied families) antecedents, as I have yet to figure out how he was related to Jeffrey/Geoffrey DANIELL. Also the DANIELL family of St Margaret's, Preshute, Wilts., intermarried with later generations of the ERNLE family, as of course did the HUNGERFORD family of Down Ampney, Glos.
The History of Parliament Trust accepts corrections and additions to its earlier volumes, and, when I can I send them in. The early volumes referencing the ERNLE family of Sussex's MPs are being researched afresh, and many errors have been detected, including filiations in the ERNLE entries. It may be that fresh research will likewise shed light on your DANIELL puzzles.
Best wishes,
Richard
Richard Carruthers, M.A. (Oxon.)
OPC for Purton and Rodbourne Cheney, Wilts.
conducting a non-GOONS one-name-study of the ERNLE family (and vars.)
_________________________________________________________________
Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462
melanie chesnel
if you want translating from french to english give me a copy and I
will do it for you
regards
melanie
Renia
James Dempster
wrote:
>Thank you all for your contributions and ideas.
Should you ever want assistance on the heraldic aspects, please let me
know either on the group or privately.
James