Ancestry of Rose Ive, Grandmother of Gateway Ancestor Rose Stoughton

[m...@armorial.es]

Dear Newsgroup:

I was wondering if any member of the group has perhaps been researching the ancestry of Rose Ive for an article to be published in a journal. I started assembling materials along this line way back in 2011, but what work I did is still languishing on my hard drive and frankly I'm so busy professionally I despair of doing anything more formal with it in the short term. I'm thinking of simply posting to my blog what I have, and inviting comments/critiques/additions, but would not want to inadvertently blow someone else's paper out of the water.

Matthew Hovious

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Matthew,
I look forward to reading your findings on your blog on the ancestry of Rose Ive, grandmother of Rose Stoughton, and daughter of Richard Ive of Kentish Town (his IPM below)
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/abstract/no1/pp149-165#h3-0005
I haven’t not come across anything on the ancestry of Rose Ive’s father Richard Ive, but there seems to be a number of leads on the Agmondesham line. Rose Ive’s mother Elizabeth is known to be the daughter of Henry Agmondesham of Horsley.
It seems likely (but I haven’t found concrete proof) that this Henry Agmondesham is the one and the same mentioned in the Visitation of Surrey, whom married Elizabeth ?. I would be interested in knowing if you have found evidence of the this link.
https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofcou43beno#page/54/mode/2up
If these two are one and the same it appears as though the visitation is correct in stating that the father of Henry Agmondesham is Ralph Agmondesham of East Horsley. The IPM’s for Ralph Agmondesham (173 and 174 at the link below) identify Ralph’s spouse Agnes Crauley and the names of his parents (William Agmondesham and Agnes ?).
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/series2-vol2/pp103-132
This is the extent of what I have had been able to confirm of the pedigree in the Visitation, given my limited time spent on this line thus far.
Take Care and look forward to reading about your findings,
Jordan Vandenberg.

[Matthew Hovious]

Jordan,

Thanks for your interest. FWIW, my notes are now online here on my blog:

http://matthewhovious.blogspot.com/2017/12/some-proposed-ancestry-for-rose-ive.html

Nothing earth-shaking, my specific interest at the time I was working on this was trying to see if I could pin down her ancestry through her paternal grandfather: Parveys, Tickhill / Tykhull, Chymbeham, Groveherst. Where I really stalled was with her great-great-great-great-grandfather Richard Groveherst. Assorted old histories say more or less the same thing about him: example, "After which this estate came into the possession of the family of Groveherst; one of whom, Richard Groveherst, dying in the reign of king Henry IV, without male issue, his three daughters... became his heirs". In other words, the writers didn't know his descent either. I hoped to link him to sundry other Grofherst / Grovehurst etc references in medieval records but this seemed likely to take considerable time and I needed to focus on wrapping up another paper for publication, so I shelved this topic and it has remained on the shelf ever since.

Comments, additions, corrections welcome here or to the blog post.

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Matthew,
Thanks a lot for posting your research. You have uncovered a great deal on the ancestry of Rose Ive and I look forward to sitting down tonight to thoroughly read through your blog post.
Thanks agian,
Jordan Vandenberg.

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Matthew,

I read through your blog entry on your research into the ancestry of Rose Ive and was very impressed with the headway you made, especially on the side of her father Richard Ive of Kentish Town. With your research you have provided a number of possible avenues of further research for her ancestry.

As I have started to dig into it a little bit, I came across a PDF of a paper within a larger work. The paper is entitled, "The Village of Crouch End, Hornsey," by W. McB. Marcham. Within the text (page 4 of the PDF and page 398-399 of the actual work), is an Ive pedigree which coincides with what you have found, and provides further information about Elizabeth Tykhull nee Groverherst, her daughter Frances and son Ralph, and Thomas Ive.

http://www.cecilepark.com/vofcend/vofcendsmall.pdf

If I come across anything that might be of further interest, I will post.

Thanks again,
Jordan.

On Sunday, December 3, 2017 at 12:57:03 AM UTC-5, m...@armorial.es wrote:

[Jordan Vandenberg]

I just came across a transcription of the will of Richard Groveherst dated the 16 Feb 1456 and probated 20 May 1457.

The transcription reads:

16 February 1456. Richard Groveherst of Tonbridge.
Names and places mentioned include:
St Peter and Paul in Tonbridge. Gifts for high altars in Horsmonden, Brenchley, Frennyngham, Mapyscombe.
Wife Alicie and Phillipp Kyng to be executors.
Wife Alicie to be custodian of Agnete and Elizabeth, daughter.
William Lacon to be supervisor.
Present to witness: Thomas Harterigge, Johanne Wycchinden, Johe Judde, Johanne Halle.
Lands, tenements in parish of Horsmonden, Brenchley, Marden, Frenyngham, Kingsdowne, Mappescombe and Eynsford, late feoffment of William Lacon of Stone, Philipp Kyry of City of London, Thomas Brooke and Thomas Hartereg of Marden, and Edmund Peake of Brenchley. Manor of Grofehurst.
Johanna (daughter), wife of Henry Hexstall.
Two parcels of land called Austyns and Vullars.
Alice (daughter) wife of Johannis Honyngton.
Elizabeth (daughter).
Probate 12 May 1457, admin to Alice, relict.

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk11/039.htm

It appears from that he had a 2nd wife named Alice, and at the time his daughter Elizabeth (ancestor to Rose Ive) was not married, and that she was to be under the custody of his wife Alice.

Jordan.

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Matthew,
Reagrding John Chymbeham in your Ive pedigree. From the Feet of Fine abstract below, it appears that John Chymbeham's wife was named Alice.

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_46_84.shtml

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25%281%29/CP25_1_46_80-84/IMG_0118.htm

CP 25/1/46/84, number 128.

County: Devon.
Place: Westminster.
Date: Two weeks from St Hilary, 14 Henry VI [27 January 1436].

Parties:William Bonevile, knight, Nicholas Wymbyssh', clerk, Thomas Levesham, clerk, John Bluet, Nicholas Radeford', Thomas Cokayn', John Bate, William Wenard', John More, William Beef', William Hyndeston', John Germyn', William Hunte and Richard Tovnesende, querents, and John Chymbeham and Alice, his wife, deforciants.

Property:The manor of Hode and 30 messuages, 1 dove-cot, 1 water mill, 800 acres of land, 300 acres of meadow, 200 acres of pasture and 6 pounds of rent in Hode, Merlegh', Helepayn', Choldewyll', Hochelond', Caundelych', Luscombe, Lowefalewyll' and North'hode.

Action: Plea of covenant.

Agreement:John Chymbeham and Alice have acknowledged the manor and tenements to be the right of William Wenard', of which the same William, William Bonevile, Nicholas, Thomas, John Bluet, Nicholas, Thomas, John Bate, John More, William Beef', William Hyndeston', John Germyn', William Hunte and Richard have the manor, messuages, dove-cot, mill, land, meadow and pasture of their gift, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Alice to William, Nicholas, Thomas, John Bluet, Nicholas, Thomas, John Bate, William, John More, William, William, John Germyn', William and Richard and the heirs of William Wenard' for ever, and have granted the rent, together with the homages and all services of Richard, prior of Plympton', and his successors, George Densill', John Wy[m?]ond', John Drake and John Leya and their heirs, in respect of all the tenements which they held before of John Chymbeham and Alice in the aforesaid vills, to hold to William, Nicholas, Thomas, John Bluet, Nicholas, Thomas, John Bate, William, John More, William, William, John Germyn', William and Richard and the heirs of William Wenard', of the chief lords for ever.

Warranty:Warranty.
For this:William, Nicholas, Thomas, John Bluet, Nicholas, Thomas, John Bate, William, John More, William, William, John Germyn', William and Richard have given them 1000 marks of silver.

Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)

Persons:William Bonville, Nicholas Wimbish, Thomas Levesham, John Bluett, Nicholas Radford, Thomas Cokayne, John Bate, William Wenard, John Moore, William Beef, William Hindstone, John Jermyn, William Hunt, Richard Townsend, John Chymbeham, Alice Chymbeham, Richard, George Densill, John Wymond, John Drake, John Lee

Places: Hood (in Dartington), Marley (in Rattery), Hele, Cholwell, Hatchland (both in Rattery), 'Caundelych'', Luscombe, Lower Velwell (both in Rattery), Plympton

[Jordan Vandenberg]

I don't have access to it, because it requires a subscription, but BHO has an entry in the Henry VI Close Rolls that from the description at the search result screen indicates that the father of a John Chymbeham living at the same time as the one in your pedigree was Edmund Chymbeham.

The part that is readable from the search result screen is as follows:

Close Rolls, Henry VI: January 1436
"7 February. John Chymbeham, son and heir of Edmund Chymbeham, to William ... 8 February. Edmund Chymbeham, brother of John Chymbeham, to William..."

'Close Rolls, Henry VI: January 1436', in Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry VI: Volume 3, 1435-1441, ed. A E Stamp (London, 1937), pp. 46-50. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/cal-close-rolls/hen6/vol3/pp46-50 [accessed 7 December 2017].

It seems a good possibility that this John Chymbeham could be one and the same as the one in your pedigree. I am curious as to what the remainder of the Close Roll entry says.

Jordan.

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Matthew,

I was looking into Henry Perveys (father of Elizabeth Perveys who married Richard Ive, Gent.) and his father John Perveys, Alderman of London, and have had a bit of luck.

First I came across a transcription of a will (below) for a man named John Dun dated 16 May 1476. In his will he mentions both Henry Perveys and his father John Perveys, but also a son of Henry named John, a brother of Henry named Thomas and his sister Elizabeth stated as wife of Richard Ive, Gent.

Monday next before the Feast of S. Alban, Martyr [22 June].

Dun (John), mercer.—To Henry Perveys, draper, son of John Perveys, late Alderman, certain lands and tenements in the parishes of S. Martin Ottewiche, S. Benedict Fynk, and S. Margaret in Briggestrete, which he acquired from John Horn, gentleman; to hold the same for life, with remainder to John Perveys, son of the said Henry, in tail; remainder to Thomas, brother of the said John, in tail; remainder to Elizabeth, wife of Richard Ive, gentleman, sister of the aforesaid John; remainder in trust for sale for pious uses. Dated London, 16 May, A.D. 1476.
Roll 213 (37).


Next within in the same volume, was a transcription of a will for a man named William West. Again Henry Perveys, his brother John, and his father John Perveys, Alderman of London are mentioned, but in addition this will mentions Johanna, the wife of John Perveys.


Monday next before the Feast of S. Luke, Evangelist [18 Oct.].

West (William), "marbeler."—To Henry Perveys, son of John Perveys, late Alderman, he leaves certain lands and tenements in the parishes of S. Martin Oteswich, S. Benedict Fynk, and S. Margaret de Briggestrete, to hold the same in tail; remainder in trust for sale for pious uses. The aforesaid lands and tenements had formerly belonged to John Perveys, Alderman, and had been devised to Johanna, wife of the said John, for life, with remainders to John and Henry his sons in successive tail, but owing to the co-feoffees of the said Alderman having neglected to release their interest in the aforesaid property to him, the terms of his will could not be executed; the testator therefore, having become solely seised of the same, devises them in accordance with the known wishes of the said John. Dated 17 July, A.D. 1442.
Roll 195 (28).


Also within the same volume is the transcription of the will of John Perveys, Alderman of London (father of Henry Perveys). This will mentions many of the same family members (wife and children) found in the above wills, but it also mentions the parents of John Perveys, Alderman of London (his father also named John and his mother Alice) and his brother Robert Perveys who resides at Abendon in Co. Berkshire.


Monday next after the Feast of S. Petronilla, Virgin [31 May].

Perveys (John), fishmonger, and Alderman of the City of London.—To be buried in the church of S. Margaret de Briggestrete. Bequests for the fabric, &c., of the said church, and for the maintenance of a chantry therein for the good of his soul, the souls of John his father, Alice his mother, and others, for a term of six years next after his decease. To John and Henry his sons two hundred pounds respectively; if they both die under age, the money to be devoted to pious uses, the seven works of mercy, and repair of roads near London, &c. To Robert his brother, residing at Abendon, co. Berks, forty pounds. To Johanna his wife, by way of dower of his movables, fifty pounds and her personal apparel and ornaments; also all his lands and tenements within the City of London for life, with remainder to John and Henry his sons in successive tail; remainder in trust for sale for pious and charitable uses. Bequests to his apprentices, servants, and others. Dated London, 25 March, A.D. 1434.—Also his will is that his feoffees of his manor of Benchesham in the parish of Croydon, co. Surrey, shall make an estate tail in the same to his son John; remainder to the said feoffees for sale, the proceeds being devoted to the seven works of mercy.—Also he wills that his feoffees of his lands and tenements at Biggyng in the parish of Croydon aforesaid make a similar estate in the same to Henry his son, with similar remainder.
Roll 170 (51).

The wills are from:
Calendar of Wills Proved and Enrolled in the Court of Husting, London: Part 2, 1358-1688, ed. R R Sharpe (London, 1890).

https://books.google.ca/books?id=26QNzlk28SMC&lpg=PA586&ots=nPsnqisSKg&dq=%22john%20perveys%22%20%22calendar%20of%20wills%22%20sharpe&pg=PA496#v=onepage&q=%22john%20perveys%22%20%22calendar%20of%20wills%22%20sharpe&f=false

Take care,
Jordan Vandenberg.

[sabaris...@gmail.com]

Here's the text of the Close Rolls recorda you were asking for:

Membrane 13d
William Chymbeham the elder, brother of John Chymbeham, to William Boneville knight, Nicholas Wymbysshe, Thomas Leuesham clerks, John Bluet, Nicholas Radeforde, Thomas Cokayne, John Bate, William Wenarde, John More, William Beefe, William Hyndeston, John Germyn, William Hunte and Richard Townesende, their heirs and assigns. Quitclaim indented with warranty of the manor of Hode, all messuages, dovecotes, mills, lands, rents, reversions and services in Hode, Marlegh (Merlegh), Helepayn, Choldewille, Hochelonde, Caundelyche, Luscombe, Louefalewille (Loufalewille) and 'Northhode' co. Devon, and all messuages etc. with all neifs in that county which they had by feoffment of John Chambeham (sic) his brother. Witnesses: Thomas Courtenay earl of Devon, Philip Courtenay, John Dynham, Thomas Beaumonde knights, John Speke, Humphrey Bevyle (Beville), Thomas Wyse, Walter Reynolde, Walter Whitlegh. Dated 7 February 14 Henry VI.
Memorandum of acknowledgment in chancery at Westminster, 8 February.
William Chymbeham the younger, brother of John Chymbeham, to William Boneville (and the others above named) their heirs and assigns. (Like) quitclaim and warranty. Witnesses and date (as the last).
Memorandum of acknowledgment, 8 February.
John Chymbeham, son and heir of Edmund Chymbeham, to William Boneville knight, Nicholas Wymbysshe, Thomas Leuesham clerks, John Bluet, Nicholas Radeforde, Thomas Cokayne, John Bate, William Wenarde, John More, William Beefe, William Hyndeston, John Germyn, William Hunte and Richard Townesende, their heirs and assigns. Quitclaim with warranty of the manor of Hode and all messuages, dovecotes, mills, lands, rents, reversions and services in Hode, Merlegh, Helepayne, Choldewille, Hochelonde, Caundelyche, Luscombe, Loufalewille and 'Northhode' co. Devon, and all messuages etc. and all neifs in that county, which they had by his gift. Witnesses: Thomas Courtenay earl of Devon, Philip Courtenay, John Dynham, Thomas Beaumonde knights, John Speke, Humphrey Beville, Thomas Wyse, Walter Reynolde, Walter Whitlegh. Dated 7 February 14 Henry VI.
Memorandum of acknowledgment, 8 February.
Edmund Chymbeham, brother of John Chymbeham, to William Boneville (and the others above named), their heirs and assigns. Quitclaim and warranty of the (said) manor etc., which they had by gift of the said John. Witnesses and date (as the last).
Memorandum of acknowledgment, 8 February.

Always happy to help with British History on-line lookups.
Best
Saba

[m...@spanish-genealogy.com]

Thanks very much, Saba.

[Matthew Hovious]

Jordan,

Thanks very much for your comments and interest in this line. It seems like a lot of additional information is developing to better document these lines and, perhaps, extend some of them. At some point I'll look into updating my blog post and you'll be credited for the discoveries added.

Matthew

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Matthew,
Thanks again for putting together the line. I am excited about the new avenues for research from it.

Saba,
Thanks for taking the time to look up and post the BHO records regarding the Chymbeham's. It is appreciated.


Also, I found an interesting entry in the Discovery catalogue in which it states "Chymbeham alias Parker," in regards to John Chymbeham.

Short title: Honyngton v Lovelace. Plaintiffs: Richard HONYNGTON, John PETITE and Robert...

Reference: C 1/1230/68
Description:
Short title: Honyngton v Lovelace.

Plaintiffs: Richard HONYNGTON, John PETITE and Robert TYKYLL, gentlemen, great-grandsons and heirs of Richard Groveherste, esquire, and of Joan his wife.

Defendants: John LOVELACE, gentleman.

Subject: Manors of Gowers in Maplescombe and Chart in Farningham and lands in Kingsdown. (The said Groveherste was grandson and heir of John Chymbeham alias Parker.). Kent

Date: 1544-1551
Held by:The National Archives, Kew

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7497566

Has anyone come across any other records where this is mentioned, where the Chymbeham's have been referred to as Parker rather than Chymbeham?

Thanks,
Jordan.

[Jordan Vandenberg]

I have been able to find a reference to Edmund Chymbeham as "Chymbeham alias Parker" and that two of his brothers used the surname Parker.

In History of Parliament's biography on William Parker of London (d.1403) (Published in The History of Parliament: the House of Commons 1386-1421, ed. J.S. Roskell, L. Clark, C. Rawcliffe., 1993), the following is stated,

"Little is known about Parker’s early years, although he may well have come originally from Kent. One of his brothers, John Parker senior, lived at Crundale, near Ashford, while another, known generally as Edmund Chymbeham alias Parker, was a Kentishman who eventually settled in London."

"In February 1390 he joined with four other Londoners and his brother, Edmund Chymbeham, in offering 1,000 marks (payable in instalments of £100), for the manor of Kingsnorth with its extensive appurtenances in the Wye area."

"Only once, however, does he appear to have acted as a mainpernor, on the special occasion of his brother Edmund’s appointment as a collector of customs at Chichester in 1399."

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/parker-william-i-1403

It appears as though Edmund's other siblings used the surname Parker while he used Chymbeham.

Reagrds,
Jordan.

[Jordan Vandenberg]

I was taking a look at the will of Richard Ive (d. 1558), father of Rose Ive and husband of Elizabeth Agmondesham. On the 5th line from the bottom of the first page of his will he mentions his parents. Matthew revealed in his blog the name of his father which was Thomas Ive, which the will also states, but the name of his mother which is not known at this pointed also seems to be listed, but the problem is that I cannot seem to decipher the name in the old script.

I can make out the following on the 5th line from the bottom:

“to praye for my (sole?) my father and mother (late?) Thomas and (possibly Frances?) my _______”

Any assistance with this passage, especially with the name of Richard Ives mother would be greatly appreciated. It appears like it may be Frances, because the first letter seems to be an F written the same as the F in father, and the next three letters look like r-a-n.

The link to the first page of his will is below.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AsMhcvOEJ_pakFoP1q8d5iHPYMff

Thank you,
Jordan Vandenberg.

[Matt A]

I'm afraid the testator of this will was named Nicholas, though from the abbreviation on the margin, it's easy to misread "Nich'i" as "Rich'i." Unfortunately, it seems to me unclear from the wording below whether the names Thomas and Frances are the testator's parents or children.

In the name of god Amen the xth Daie of June and in the thirde and fourthe yeris of the Reign of Phillippe and Mary by the grace of god Kinge and quene of Englonde Spayne ffraunce &tc. I Nicholas Ive cittizen of drap[er] of London beinge of good and p[er]fect remembrance lawde and prayse be unto Almightie god doo make ordeyn and declare this my p[re]sent testament and laste will and redeamer and to or blessed Lady and to all the company of heaven and my body to be buryed in the p[ar]ishe Church of St Dunstones, or els where it shall pleas god to vyset me and take me to his mercy, and I will that there shall not be to myche pompe on the daye of my burieng, but I will and my mynde is to have that daye an honest lerned man to make my ffreends and my company a lerned sermon, and the said lerned man to praye for my solle my ffather and mother solls Thomas and ffraunc[e]s my children soules and my bretherne and sisters solle and for all xpen solls; and the seid preacher to have for his paynes takyne sixe shillings and eight pence. And also I give & bequeathe to the parson of the saied Churche of St Dunstones then beinge for my olbacon forgotten xiid And also I will there shuld be xlv masses songe for me at my buryenge and [end of page 1]

-Matt A

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Matt,
Thanks for pointing out that it is Nicholas Ive and for taking the time to read and transcribe the section of the will. When I searched the ancestry.com database, the will was indexed as Richard Ive and I knew that he had passed away in the year 1558 from his IPM. I was beginning to wonder as I was trying to read through the will that there was mention of a number of other sons in addition to Thomas mentioned in his IPM and I could find no mention of his daughters Margaret and Rose.
Thanks again,
Jordan.

[Jordan Vandenberg]

It seems as though Elizabeth Groveherst (daughter of Richard Groveherst and Joan Chymbeham) was married previously to her marriage to Ralph Tykhull. The following entry in the discovery catalogue shows her as the wife of John Challey in the following entry for a series of documents, which begin with at the link below.

Reference: C 1/30/20

Description: Short title: Hexstall v Rodley.

Plaintiffs: Harry Hexstall, John Challey, John Petite, John Honyngton, and Joan, Elizabeth, Agnes, and Alice their wives, heiresses of John Chymbeham.
Defendants: William (Rodley), David Ewyas, clerk, Nicholas Sibile, and John Donet, feoffees of the said John Chymbeham, and Edmund Chymbeham, his executor.

Subject: Land in Farningham (Frenyngham), Kingsdown, Maplescombe, Otford (Otteford), Shoreham, Lullingstone, Lullyngstane, and Eynesford.
Kent.
13 documents

Date: 1463-1467

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7443258

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no30/IMG_0022.htm


The following (linked below) is an entry from 1466/67 with the same parties as the entry above, that then shows Elizabeth Groveherst as the wife of Ralph Tykhull. This makes it likely that she married Ralph Tykhull about 1465 or 1466.


Reference: E 40/5372

Description: Acquittance by Edmund Chymbeham, executor of the will of John his brother, deceased, to Ralph Tykhull and Elizabeth his wife, Henry Hexstall and Joan his wife, John Honyngton and Alice his wife, and John Petit and Agnes his wife, for 100 marks, paid by them as the heirs of Richard Groveherst and Joan his wife, in accordance with the condition of a demise by Nicholas Sybile and others, to the said John Chymbeham, for his life, with remainder to the said Richard and Joan, of lands in Frennyngham, Kyngesdon, Mapelescombe, Otteford, Shoreham, Lullyngston, Lullyngstane, and Eynesford, and elsewhere in the county named: Kent.

Date: 15 November, 6 Edward IV.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4944125

Does anyone know anything about John Challey who died abt. 1465 and first husband of Elizabeth Groveherst?

Thanks,
Jordan Vandenberg.

[Matthew Hovious]

Jordan,
This is great; I already had the marriage of Elizabeth Groveherst and Ralph Tykhull as 'before 15 Nov 1466' based on the document you cite, but was completely unaware of her earlier marriage to John Challey. Perhaps having this extra name to include in research will help uncover more records pertaining to his father-in-law Richard Groveherst, his lands and origin. It's good to see our knowledge of these families growing.

Matthew

[condyfee]

https://books.google.com/books?id=bfNfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PT671&dq=Parneys++++++++++++++or,+a+fesse+vert,+over+all+a+saltier+gu.&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwig5svx8YLYAhVG2WMKHWlcDvEQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=Parneys%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20or%2C%20a%20fesse%20vert%2C%20over%20all%20a%20saltier%20gu.&f=false


this may help

[condyfee]

https://books.google.com/books?id=zQEYyY6f5UsC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=Henry+Perveys&source=bl&ots=xb9RNFxTts&sig=C-Uzb5OxUQ3V5Eg16nfLePftzbU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_mY2k4oLYAhUEzGMKHUqAB-wQ6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=Henry%20Perveys&f=false

also has much on pervys

[condyfee]

On Sunday, December 10, 2017 at 2:02:36 AM UTC-8, Matthew Hovious wrote:

https://books.google.com/books?id=zQEYyY6f5UsC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=Henry+Perveys&source=bl&ots=xb9RNFxTts&sig=C-Uzb5OxUQ3V5Eg16nfLePftzbU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_mY2k4oLYAhUEzGMKHUqAB-wQ6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=Henry%20Perveys&f=false

[Matthew Hovious]

Thank you!

[m...@armorial.es]

Jordan,

Thanks for your critiques and review of this line. Some of the items you shared, for example the wills from the Court of Hustings, were already in my original post, others like the Groveherst-Challey marriage were completely new. In any case this motivated me to spend some time reviewing the proposed relationships and it seemed there was a new problem. If the Ive lineage is adjusted to:
Thomas Ive m. Frances Tykhull >
Richard Ive m. Elizabeth Agmondisham >
Rose Ive m. Sir Lawrence Stoughton

then the weak point appeared to be, proving that the first Thomas Ive shown here was a son of the first Richard Ive who married Elizabeth Parveys. That said, and lacking something more explicit such as a will for either of them, the transmission of lands at West Purley in the parish of Sanderstead should be sufficient; specifically, the land mentioned here circa 1493:
'TNA C 1/102/22 John Marchall and Elizabeth, his wife, late the wife of Richard Ive, gentleman, and daughter of Herry Parveys. v. Thomas Bryan, knight, chief justice of the Common Pleas, and others, feoffees to uses.: Lands called West Perley or Mikell Perley, settled on the said Elizabeth at her first marriage.: Surrey'
seem to be the same ones later sold (Surrey Feet of Fines) by the second Richard Ive in 1537:
'Henry Polsted senior (r.) and Joan, his wife, plts. : Richard Ive senior (h.), son and heir of Thomas Ive, and Isabella, his wife, dfts.. 4 mess., 6 tofts, 5 gardens, 320 a. land, 12 a. meadow, 240 a. pasture, 100 a. wood and 20 s. rent in Saundersted, Whattington, Cullesdon, Waddon and Croydon. Form A, Morrow of St John'
and which seem to be the same lands earlier purchased by the 'first' Thomas Ive (the one who married Frances Tykhull):
'TNA C 1/40/73
Description: Plaintiffs: Thomas Ive. Defendants: William Burton, William Covert, and others. Subject: Messuage, etc called West Purley, in Sanderstead, and lands, etc in Sanderstead, Croydon, Waddon, Coulsdon (Collysdon), Wallington, (Whadyngdon), Chaldon (Chalnedom), Merstham (Mestham), Bristow,Alfold, and Albury (Aldebury), sold by John Kiriell to petitioner.'

In other words, the West Purley/Sanderstead lands' passage seems to uphold the following:
Thomas Ive m.___________ >
Richard Ive m. Elizabeth Parveys >
Thomas Ive m. Frances Tykhull >
Richard Ive m. Elizabeth Agmondisham >
Rose Ive m. Sir Lawrence Stoughton

On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 4:26:13 PM UTC+1, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:

[P J Evans]

On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 10:48:15 PM UTC-8, m...@armorial.es wrote:
> Jordan,
>
> Thanks for your critiques and review of this line. Some of the items you shared, for example the wills from the Court of Hustings, were already in my original post, others like the Groveherst-Challey marriage were completely new. In any case this motivated me to spend some time reviewing the proposed relationships and it seemed there was a new problem. If the Ive lineage is adjusted to:
> Thomas Ive m. Frances Tykhull >
> Richard Ive m. Elizabeth Agmondisham >
> Rose Ive m. Sir Lawrence Stoughton
>
> then the weak point appeared to be, proving that the first Thomas Ive shown here was a son of the first Richard Ive who married Elizabeth Parveys. That said, and lacking something more explicit such as a will for either of them, the transmission of lands at West Purley in the parish of Sanderstead should be sufficient; specifically, the land mentioned here circa 1493:
> 'TNA C 1/102/22 John Marchall and Elizabeth, his wife, late the wife of Richard Ive, gentleman, and daughter of Herry Parveys. v. Thomas Bryan, knight, chief justice of the Common Pleas, and others, feoffees to uses.: Lands called West Perley or Mikell Perley, settled on the said Elizabeth at her first marriage.: Surrey'
> seem to be the same ones later sold (Surrey Feet of Fines) by the second Richard Ive in 1537:
> 'Henry Polsted senior (r.) and Joan, his wife, plts. : Richard Ive senior (h.), son and heir of Thomas Ive, and Isabella, his wife, dfts.. 4 mess., 6 tofts, 5 gardens, 320 a. land, 12 a. meadow, 240 a. pasture, 100 a. wood and 20 s. rent in Saundersted, Whattington, Cullesdon, Waddon and Croydon. Form A, Morrow of St John'
> and which seem to be the same lands earlier purchased by the 'first' Thomas Ive (the one who married Frances Tykhull):
> 'TNA C 1/40/73
> Description: Plaintiffs: Thomas Ive. Defendants: William Burton, William Covert, and others. Subject: Messuage, etc called West Purley, in Sanderstead, and lands, etc in Sanderstead, Croydon, Waddon, Coulsdon (Collysdon), Wallington, (Whadyngdon), Chaldon (Chalnedom), Merstham (Mestham), Bristow,Alfold, and Albury (Aldebury), sold by John Kiriell to petitioner.'
>
> In other words, the West Purley/Sanderstead lands' passage seems to uphold the following:
> Thomas Ive m.___________ >
> Richard Ive m. Elizabeth Parveys >
> Thomas Ive m. Frances Tykhull >
> Richard Ive m. Elizabeth Agmondisham >
> Rose Ive m. Sir Lawrence Stoughton
>

[snipped]

I'm having trouble with the dates for Richard and his parents and his mother's parents. They seem to require that Frances Tykhull marry Thomas Ive by 1450, and that doesn't fit with the dates for her parents.

2. Richard Ive-6413: married bef 1476; died bef 1493
3. Elizabeth Parveys-6414: died aft 1493

4. Thomas Ive-6417: married; died 1481
5. Frances Tykhull-6418
6. Henry Parveys-6419: married bef 1443
7. Margaret _-6420: born bef 1427

10. Ralph Tykhull-6423: married bef 15 Nov 1466; died 1501
11. Elizabeth Groveherst-6424: died aft 1515
12. John Parveys-6425: died abt 1434


22. Richard Groveherst-6429
23. Joan Chymbeham-6430: died bef 1490

[J. Sardina]

Hello,

It has been quite a while since this posting.
I am wondering how some of the people mentioned in this document, were related to the defendants.
Were they relatives or tenants of the manor?
In am particularly interested in Thomas Cockayne.
There seems to have been an armigerous Cokeyn family in Devon in the fifteenth century and earlier.
J. Sardina

[Darrell E. Larocque]

I have been reviewing many of the lines of the Cokayne family, and I didn't see any possibility of a branch in that area that early in the 15th century. London, Derbyshire and Bedfordshire are all quite a long distance from Devon.

However...

The petitioner, William Chymbeham, was related to Edmund Chymbeham AKA Parker. Edmund had moved from Kent to London as a merchant. This is probably where he interacted with Thomas Cokayne, and where you would probably find better information.

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/parker-william-i-1403

Darrell E. Larocque

[J. Sardina]

Hello,


Thanks for the information. I have been looking around for a Thomas Cokayne, armiger, of whom i have very little information, which is not making the search easy.

Apparently he lived in the middle of the fifteenth century. Quite a lot of Cockaynes (or Cokeyn or Cokayn) have appeared, including branches in Derbyshire and London, but if the only document I have found that mentions him is correct, his arms do not corresponds to any of the Cockaynes so far, but rather to Coykins, and they are shown in some pages as existing in Devon at some undetermined time; they also resemble with the arms of one sir Roland Coykin, as shown in Segar's Roll,
found http://www.aspilogia.com/G-Segars_Roll/G-057-108.html, living in 1307

Strangely, according to Cornwall and the Kingdom: Connectivity, Cohesion, and Integration, c. 1300-c. 1420
by
Samuel John Drake Royal Holloway, University of Londo, Thesis submitted for the Degree of Doctor of Philosophy 2017,
sir Roland was originally from Somerset, but somehow had some lands in Cornwall.

J. Sardina