Inca descents: Greece, Milford Haven, Westminster, Pless
History Writer
Inca blood through her Ecuadorian mother, though I am not aware that
this has been traced. Some years ago I found mention of the a 17th
century Ecuadorian Pesantes who was married to a descendant of the
Inca royals, though I would have to do some research to find the
reference since my Ecuadorian collection is sizeable. A prominent
Ecuadorian genealogist I spoke to a few years ago indicated that
Chantal Pesantes (Marie-Chantal's mother) was unknown to the
Ecuadorian elite, and he did not know any of her relatives.
In addition, probable Inca royal descendants include Janet Mercedes
Bryce, the wife of the 3rd Marquess of Milford Haven (first cousin of
the Duke of Edinburgh), and the Duchesses of Abercorn and Westminster,
as daughters of Janet Bryce's first cousin, Harold Pedro Joseph
Philipps. Inca blood would come through Janet and Harold's Peruvian
grandmother Mercedes Gonzalez de Candamo, wife of Peruvian-born
businessman John Paul Bryce. Mercedes was the sister of President
Pedro Candamo of Peru, who died in office in 1904, and who reportedly
had Inca royal blood, though I don't have the details. Janet Bryce is
also a second cousin of Princess Clothilde of Pless, nee de Silva y
Gonzalez de Candamo, daughter of the 8th Marques de Arcicollar.
Clothilde was the 2nd wife of the 3rd Prince of Pless (whose first
wife was the famous Princess Daisy, nee Cornwallis-West). Clothide
married secondly her step-son Count Bolko Konrad von Hochberg and is
the mother of Bolko Constantin, the current and 6th Prince of Pless,
who would apparently therefore also have Inca blood. Candamo
descendants are still prominent in Peru and, if contacted, probably
have the full details of President Candamo's Inca ancesty.
There are numerous other lines from Peruvians and other South
Americans who married 19th and 20th Century European nobles, and some
of these certainly would also have traceable Inca ancestry. Best
Regards.
O.Petrini di Monforte
Indian nations. However, the Incas themselves remained detached
zealously guarding the purity of their blood. In fact, within the
royal family, the Inca married his own sisters and first cousins.
These were the "official" marriages. In fact, that was one of the
problems with the legitimacy of Atahualpa. Nonetheless, because of
the nature of these marriages and because the conquest of Peru was so
well chronicled at the time, tracing Inca ancestry is relatively easy.
The marriages between the few remaining Inca princesses and Spaniards
are well documented. My parents share one of these ladies as a common
ancestor: Doña Leonor Yupanqui, daughter of Huayna Capac.
Regards,
Olivia Petrini di Monforte
bv2...@aol.com (History Writer) wrote in message
news:<3943286.03050...@posting.google.com>...
O.Petrini di Monforte
nuovo:
My point was that having Ecuadoran or Peruvian or Bolivian ancestry
does not necessarily mean that person has Inca ancestry. The Incas
ruled over many different people, but they guarded their own genes
very seriously. Within the royal house, the Inca married his sisters
and first cousins. These were the official marriages. In fact, one
ofthe problems Atahualpa had regarding the legitimacy of his claim to
the throne was that his mother was a non-Inca. Because of these
incestous marriages and because the conquest of the Inca empire was so
well chronicled at the time it occurred, tracing Inca bloodlines is
relatively easy. A few of the remaining princesses were actually
baptized, given Christian first names and married off to Spaniards.
Both my father and mother share as a common ancestor Doña Leonor
Yupanqui, a daughter of Huayna Capac. Indirectly, she was responsible
for the founding of present day Buenos Aires. But that is another
story... Of interest to me, however, is another story (documented,
also) about Atahualpa and his women:
Atahualpa, surrounded by his wives, concubines and children, met
Pizarro and his men at the Plaza Mayor in Cajamarca. As Atahualpa
seemed unimpressed by the Spaniards' display of arms and force, de
Soto approached the Inca on his horse, almost touching Atahualpa's
face as the horse stood on his hind legs. Everybody in Atahualpa's
entourage reacted in fear, except two of his daughters who became
famous in history for not flinching! Atahualpa had every member of
his family executed, except the two unflinching daughters.
Regards,
Olivia Petrini di Monforte
hbv...@aol.com (History Writer) wrote in message news:<3943286.03050...@posting.google.com>...
Seriozha
Thanks for sharing this information with us. The question: is Peruvian
descent synonymous with a royal Inca descent?
Sergei
History Writer
> Atahualpa, surrounded by his wives, concubines and children, met
> Pizarro and his men at the Plaza Mayor in Cajamarca. As Atahualpa
> seemed unimpressed by the Spaniards' display of arms and force, de
> Soto approached the Inca on his horse, almost touching Atahualpa's
> face as the horse stood on his hind legs. Everybody in Atahualpa's
> entourage reacted in fear, except two of his daughters who became
> famous in history for not flinching! Atahualpa had every member of
> his family executed, except the two unflinching daughters.
>
> Regards,
> Olivia Petrini di Monforte
>
Atahualpa, but also four wives and six sons. At least two of
Atahualpa's wives/concubines survived the Spanish conquest and became
mistresses of Spaniards and some of the sons had children. The story
above obviously refers only to family members present in Cajamarca.
The details of the daughters from Hemming, page 598:
1) Princess Maria, wife of Pedro de Leon, and then Blas Gomez (from
Extremadura);
2) Princess Isabel, wife of Sancho de Rojas. She resided in Quito, and
had one son, who died young.
Atahualpa's sister-wife Dona Francisca Coya was mistress of Captain
Diego de Sandoval. According to Hemming, Francisca Coya's
granddaughter (Maria Rengifo, born 1550) married a prominent Spaniard
named Vicente de Tamayo, and "their descendants spread throughout the
colonial period." (Hemming, page 346.)
(END)
Francois Guyard
History Writer
> Thanks for sharing this information with us. The question: is Peruvian
> descent synonymous with a royal Inca descent?
>
> Sergei
Sergei: Good point. Peruvian descent is not necessary synonymous
with a royal Inca descent or even of any indigenous Peruvian ancestry.
However, according to Ian Fleming's biographer Andrew Lycett, Ivar
Bryce, a first cousin of the Marchioness of Milford Haven and Harold
Pedro Philipps, believed he had "Indian origins." Lycett writes on
page 16 of his Fleming biography that Ivar Bryce, who was a close
friend of Fleming's and the model for the James Bond character, "was
the scion of an Anglo-Peruvian family which had made a fortune trading
guano, ... With his thick, sensuous lips, Bryce was distinguished by
satyr-like good looks which he owed to his part-Aztec Indian origins."
Obviously, Lycett got this wrong, since he meant to say Incan origins
not Aztec, who are of course from Mexico.
In addition, in an article in the "Revista del Instituto Peruano de
Investigaciones Genealogicas" Vol 7 (1954), entitled "Familias
Peruanas de Origin Argentino" on page 94 it states that "Una hermana
del celeberrimo Rozas, Dona Mercedes, fue casada con Don Miguel de
Ribera y Rondeau, nieto de Don Juan de Ribera y Dona Maria de la
Concha Tupac Amaru, de estripe real incaica." (Translation: A
sister of the well-known Rozas, Dona Mercedes was married to Don
Miguel de Ribera y Rondeau, grandson of Don Juan de Ribera and Dona
Maria de la Concha Tupac Amaru, of royal Incan descent.) Mercedes
Gonzalez de Candamo, Ivar and Janet's grandmother, was the daughter of
Mercedes Iriarte Ribera, so it is possible she is descended from Don
Miguel de Ribera or a relative of his, which may be source of Ivar's
Incan roots. This is still conjecture on my part. If descended from
Don Miguel and his wife Dona Mercedes, then the Bryces in England are
also related to Argentine Caudillo Juan Manuel de Rozas (aka Rosas),
who was dictator of Argentina 1829-1852. Mr. Fernandez-Blanco may
wish to comment on this possibility. Best Regards.
J.L.Fernandez-Blanco
> nuovo:
> My point was that having Ecuadoran or Peruvian or Bolivian ancestry
> does not necessarily mean that person has Inca ancestry. The Incas
> ruled over many different people, but they guarded their own genes
> very seriously. Within the royal house, the Inca married his sisters
> and first cousins. These were the official marriages. In fact, one
> ofthe problems Atahualpa had regarding the legitimacy of his claim to
> the throne was that his mother was a non-Inca. Because of these
> incestous marriages and because the conquest of the Inca empire was so
> well chronicled at the time it occurred, tracing Inca bloodlines is
> relatively easy. A few of the remaining princesses were actually
> baptized, given Christian first names and married off to Spaniards.
> Both my father and mother share as a common ancestor Doña Leonor
> Yupanqui, a daughter of Huayna Capac. Indirectly, she was responsible
> for the founding of present day Buenos Aires. But that is another
> story... Of interest to me, however, is another story (documented,
> also) about Atahualpa and his women:
<big snip>
Excuse me! Are you referring to Doña Leonor Yupanqui, concubine of
Juan Ortíz de Zárate and mother of Doña Juana Ortíz "la Ñusta" wife of
Juan de Torres de Vera y Aragón?
If so, I am VERY AFRAID that it is impossible that you descend from
her because the last descendant of this lady died without issue in
1683.
Please see "Historia Genealógica Argentina", of Narciso Binayán
Carmona, page 300. Even her identity as a daughter of Huayna Cápac is
extremely questionable, because Alurralde, who thought he descended
from her, made her a sister of Doña Clara Beatriz Coya, but the
contemporary documents do not show such relationship because neither
of the informants about Da. Leonor "Yupanqui"'s quality ever knew the
name of her parents or possible siblings, the only thing they all
agreed was "que era una india Palla, descendiente de los reyes Incas."
I'm sorry to bring you bad news, but you might descend from the Incas
through other lines, not this one, because this, as I said above,
ended in 1683.
Best regards,
Lic. J.L.Fernández Blanco.
J.L.Fernandez-Blanco
Well, to be honest, I don't know.
The problem with the last name "Tupac Amaru" among the families of
caciques and curacas is that it became something like "Smith" in
England or "García" in Spain. There are some Pruebas de Nobleza in
Lohmann Villena (Americanos en las Órdenes Nobiliarias Españolas) of
individuals with last names Tupac Amaru, but neither of them can trace
their genealogy to the Imperial House, and even among them they cannot
verify their kinship one with the other. All they can agree upon is
that they were "de noble ascendencia, descendientes de los Incas" but
this statement is so vague that it is almost impossible to ascertain
from whom and how.
I don't know in Peru or other countries, but the only proven "Ñustas"
and "Pallas" who left descendants in Argentina and Chile (and
therefore in Paraguay and Uruguay) are:
1) Da. Bárbola Coya Inca, married to Garci Díaz de Castro. All that is
known of her is that she was "pariente cercana del Rey Inca del Perú",
and that Doña Beatriz Clara Coya regarded her as "tía o prima porque
era sobrina del rey Inca del Perú, de real, alto y serenísimo linaje
lo cual era público y notorio en la dicha ciudad (La Serena, Chile)
así entre españoles como entre indios" (Información de García de
Medina y Garnica, transcripta por Carlos A. Luque Colombres en "Gaspar
de Medina, conquistador y genearca", Córdoba, 1948, page 161). Her
exact filiation within the Imperial House is completely unknown.
2) Doña Inés Huaillas Yupanqui, married to Francisco de Ampuero,
former concubine of Francisco Pizarro. According to the genealogy
contained in her husband's "Información de Servicios" she was a
daughter of Huayna Cápac and Cuntur Huacho "cacica de Canta" (that is
to say, she was not a ñusta, but a palla). Her daughter, Da. María
Josefa de Ampuero married her first cousin, D. Juan de Avendaño, son
of D. Diego de Avendaño (caballero de la orden de Santiago, that means
noble) and
3) Da. Juana Azurpay, another daughter of Huayna Cápac by a secondary
unknown wife. Her descendants were so arrogant in Cuzco (the family
Pérez de Ugarte) that they were deported to Spain after 1780 because
they were accused of "que eran mirados por los indios como
descendientes de los Incas y que llamaban a doña Juana de Ugarte "La
Coya" así como que, cuando las tropas del rebelde (Túpac Amaru II)
cruzaron sus haciendas, no permitió que los indios les hicieran el
menor daño, habiendo reprendido severamente a los que robaron algunos
carneros y ovejas...y para que no hicieran otro daño puso guardia de
su propia gente." There were pamphlets in the strees of Lima and Cuzco
saying "Prevente Ugarte que queremos coronarte." From this family,
perhaps the only one who can prove their exact connection and descent
from the Imperial house (of course, along with the Pizarros), there
are some lines in Argentina. In Peru the Vásquez de Velasco, the most
characteristic family of Lima, is among their offspring.
4) Doña Catalina Páucar Ocllo, concubine of Francisco de Grado. The
only thing known about her ancestry is that she was "palla del Cuzco,
perteneciente a la nobleza incaica, descendiente del Inca Yupanqui"
(Información de Servicios of her husband). Her offspring includes
Peruvian presidents José Luis Bustamante y Rivero and Fernando
Belaúnde Terry, also José Santos Chocano and Mariano Felipe Paz
Soldán, and the Goyeneche (Condes de Guaqui). Also, a huge branch of
this family in Argentina.
5) Da. Isabel Yupanqui, concubine of Alonso Martín de Don Benito. Of
her, the only known thing is that she was"parienta de los Reyes Incas
del Perú." Nothing else is known. Her offspring includes some
prominent Argentine families. After the myth of "Beatriz Tupac
Yupanqui" the nonexistent "wife" of Perálvarez Holguín (from whom
Maxima and myself), this is the only ancestress with perhaps some
Incan blood that I can claim, although I know nothing about her
filiation.
And that's all. Only five proven ancestresses, three of whom are
barely referred as relatives of the Incas.
Of course, I am not including Da. Leonor Yupanqui, concubine of
Adelantado Juan Ortiz de Zarate, mother of Da. Juana Ortiz "La Ñusta"
wife of Juan de Torres de Vera y Aragón, marriage that transmited
nothing more nothing less than the Adelantazgo del Río de la Plata.
Her offspring died out in 1683, so any claim of a supposed descent of
her is forged. But she would be included among the "relatives" because
her filiation is completely unknown.
O.Petrini di Monforte
Please do not be very afraid, nor anticipate what kind of news your
statements will be for me. Being,as I am, from Paraguay, I am very
familiar with Doña Leonor Yupanqui mother of Juana and wife, not
concubine, of Ortiz de Zárate. Their union was in fact legitimized,
as was their child Doña Juana. Nonetheless, before jumping to
conclusions, kindly revisit your facts. Perhaps you will realize that
the Leonor you refer to is not the only Leonor Yupanqui living during
that period.
Regarding Juan de Torres de Vera y Aragón, my knowledge about him ends
when he returns to Spain after a rather short and troubled stay in
Paraguay as the last Adelantado. I do not know about his descendants,
although there is a Vera y Aragón family in Paraguay today. As far as
I know they are no relation of mine...but, in Paraguay one never
knows.
Regarding the work you cite, I am unfamiliar with it and its author.
However, I am curious about who this author cites as the last
descendant of Doña Leonor Yupanqui and Ortiz de Zárate as well as the
basis of this claim. Being raised surrounded by history books and old
documents, over my 45 years, I have learnt to be cautious about what I
read. Published print is not necessarily always accurate.
This last thought brings me to two philosophical question very
relevant to this discussion group:
1) what constitutes proof of descent?
They had no DNA tests, people had affairs, adulterous and illegitimate
children...that is part of human nature.
and,
2) why is it important to prove who your ancestors were 400, 500 or
2.000 years ago? Why do we as humans need to be connected to the
past? Is that part of our human nature?
I have witnessed this, not just in Latin America, as you mention in
another posting of yours...I have seen it as often, if not more often,
in the United States and somewhat less in Europe. In fact, a certain
Italian ambassador comes to my mind. Seventeenth century portraits
lined the walls of his living room. Noticing the resemblance to the
ambassador, my husband asked him if those were his ancestors. The
gentleman replied in confidence, "No, I have actually purchased them
from an antiquarian in Antwerp, ma,sa, fanno bella figura..."
Cordialmente,
Olivia Petrini di Monforte
Doug McDonald
>
> This last thought brings me to two philosophical question very
> relevant to this discussion group:
> 1) what constitutes proof of descent?
> They had no DNA tests, people had affairs, adulterous and illegitimate
> children...that is part of human nature.
But we have DNA tests today, and these are showing that, broadly
speaking, lots of male lines simply must be correct for a very long
time.
One of the most striking examples is my name, McDonald, supposed
descendent of Sommerled. Now I don't yet know if **I** descend
from Sommerled in the male line (the DNA test provider for this project
is currently being chaned, so I have to wait until the new
one is one line) but I DO have numberous mixed sex descents "proven"
by regular genealogy.
But the point is that enough men claiming male-line descent from him
have the exact same marker that it constitutes proof that he, or
somebody
acting genealogically like him, really existed, and, more important,
that if your name is McAlister, you very likely descend from him.
Now lots of McDonalds and McDaniels and MacDugalls do too, though with
less
frequency than McAlisters. The claims of the clans are borne out,
modulo hangers-on.
It's all probabilities, but DNA has raised some to essentially 100% ...
this of course requires a male line and documentation too.
Doug McDonald
J.L.Fernandez-Blanco
I am from Argentina and I am also 45 years.
I am surprised that you don't know Narciso Binayán Carmona, one of the
foremost Members of the Instituto Argentino de Ciencias Genealógicas y
Heráldicas, Member of the Instituto Peruano de Investigaciones
Genealógicas, Correspondent of the Instituto Internacional de
Genealogía y Heráldica de Madrid, etc.
His work, Historia Genealógica Argentina, in the chapter referring to
the only Ñustas and Pallas that left current offspring is based mostly
in documents. Leonor's "marriage" was a "de facto" one, they were
never married through the church and Leonor never converted to
Catholicism. Their union was not legitimized, what Charles V
legitimized by Real Cédula was the product of such union: Juana
(Juanita Ortiz, la Ñusta). There is an interesting biography following
the genre of historical narrative "La Ñusta Ortíz: Vida y Amores de
una Princesa Inca" by Julio A. Sierra, edited by Editorial
Sudamericana.
The died-off of Leonor's offspring is precisely Miguel de Vera y
Aragón, married with Leonor de Medina y Montalbo. To this childless
couple, José Ignacio Garmendia, whose grandmother was an Alurralde,
"added" 250 years ago a child, Maria de Vera y Aragón, the wife of
Antonio de Alurralde y Egusquiza, ancestor of Garmendia's grandmother.
The first one that discovered the last will of Miguel de Vera y Aragón
was none other than Carlos Calvo, who amended the wrong filiation in
the second edition of the Nobiliario. After Calvo, more than 50 years
ago, other Argentine, Peruvian, Bolivian, and Chilean genealogists
have studied the issue, trying to make it clear that Leonor's
offspring died out with her great great grandson, Miguel de Vera y
Aragón. That the wife of Antonio de Alurralde y Egusquiza was Maria
de Vera y Aragón, nobody doubts it, the point is that she was from
another line of the family.
Unfortunately, the only book I have with me in the U.S.A. is
Binayán's, as my library is in Buenos Aires and I don't know when I
will be back. Also, Binayán, in collaboration with other excelent
South American genealogists (especially Peruvian) published "La
familia de los Incas" in 1992.
Also, D. Raul A. Molina, the late President of the Instituto Argentino
de Ciencias Genealógicas y Heráldicas, published an article in the
number 8 of the Instituto's Revista: "Los Casco de Mendoza y los Vera
de Aragón," with the correct filiation of Alurralde's wife.
You may get in touch with the Instituto for this topic. Don Narciso
usually answers with plenty of details and references any question
people might ask him.
Best regards,
Lic. José Luis Fernández Blanco Fuentes.