Which Richard de Camville married Millicent?
Ivor West
Richard and Millicent having the same death date of 1176 is also suspicious.
Perhaps it would be better if Richard II died 1176 and Richard III died
1191.
Ivor West
Dexter Kenfield
daughter Isabel of 1160.
On the Richards, I agree, and that's exactly what I have in my current
setup.
RBodine996
when Gerard his son had succeeded him. He was Lord of Middleton Castle,
Oxfordshire, founder of Combe Abbey, Warwickshire and Sheriff of Berkshire in
1156. His wife is not known, but he had six children-Gerard, Richard, William,
Roger, Walter and Maud.
His 2nd son, Richard de Camville, of Benham, Berkshire, died at the siege of
Acre in the Holy Land in June 1191. He was one of the Admirals in the
expedition to the Holy Land and witnesses the agreement between Richard I and
Tancred, King of Sicily in 1190. He married Milicent, widow of Robert Marmion
(according to the Cartulary of Reading Abbey, folio 196b) and had-John, who
d.s.p. and Isabel, wife of Robert de Harcourt, of Bosworth, Leicestershire.
Perhaps this is what you were looking for.
Ronny Bodine
Dexter Kenfield
what I had, although it collapses my Richard II into Richard II,
Millicent's hisband. I can buy it, but there are so many differing
sources - which is the problem...
This also adds Roger. I have a number of tidbits on several diffeent
Rogers, but it's very unclear where they fit in. This is also the
first I've heard of John.
It's also the first I've heard placing Richard at Benham, Berks.
Thanks.
Douglas Richardson
I haven't given this problem much study but Ronny has it right.
Richard de Canville II definitely lived at Benham, Berkshire,
which fact VCH Berkshire confirms. Unless my memory is faulty,
I seem to recall that on Richard's death, Benham went to his
son, John de Canville, who then died without issue. At that
point, Benham went back to the main Canville line, not to Isabel
de Canville, wife of Robert de Harcourt. As such, I suspect
Isabel was not daughter of Richard de Canville II as claimed,
but rather the daughter of his parents, Richard de Canville I,
and Millicent de Rethel. If Isabel was Richard II's daughter,
Benham should have gone to the Harcourt family on John de
Canville's death. As I recall, Isabel was given Stanton
Harcourt, co. Oxford on her marriage, which property earlier
belonged to Millicent de Rethel. If Isabel was Millicent's
daughter, it would explain how she got Stanton Harcourt. By the
way, where does the birthdate of 1160 for Isabel de Canville
come from?
All for now. Best always, Douglas Richardson
In article <ep36jsouf6dmltuji...@4ax.com>, Dexter
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Ivor West
> > This also adds Roger. I have a number of tidbits on several
> > the first I've heard of John.
> >
> > It's also the first I've heard placing Richard at Benham, Berks.
> >
If you are seeking contemporary references to Camville, the Curia Regis
Roll of 1200 mentions Robert, m. Margaret FitzPayne, and Richard [son of
Gerard] m. Eustacia [Basset/ Verdun]. The latter seems to put Gerard into
the 1150 generation, as does his sister Maud's husband William de Ros,
brother of Robert de Ros, (1153 - 1227).
Ivor West
Ivor West
RBodine996 <rbodi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000529103307...@ng-bh1.aol.com...
> According to Paget's Baronage (# 115), Richard de Camville was dead in
> 1176 when Gerard his son had succeeded him. He was Lord of Middleton
> Castle, Oxfordshire, founder of Combe Abbey, Warwickshire and Sheriff of
> Berkshire in 1156. His wife is not known, but he had six children-Gerard,
> Richard, William, Roger, Walter and Maud.
>
> His 2nd son, Richard de Camville, of Benham, Berkshire, died at the siege
> of Acre in the Holy Land in June 1191. He was one of the Admirals in the
> expedition to the Holy Land and witnesses the agreement between Richard I
> and Tancred, King of Sicily in 1190. He married Milicent, widow of Robert
In which case, it makes an awkward chronology for Milisent as things seem to
point to an 1150 generation for Gerard. I see that DNB has Gerard as son of
Richard, Governor of Cyprus, and has Robert III de Marmion (d.1185) married
to Elizabeth, daughter of Gervaise de Rethel and Elizabeth de Namur, with
Robert II (d.1143) married to Milisent NN. I take it that the Milisent that
we are talking about here is Milisent de Rethel, grandniece of Godfrey de
Bouillon, and not some other.
Ivor West
Cristopher Nash
Dexter, thanks a lot for your extremely gracious response to my last,
which I feared you might take as 'lecturely' (which I've certainly no
right to be)! I'd just like to weigh in on your side here against my
own asperity (these are especially late nights for me). There's no
question about it - even the same texts give conflicting information.
I've had a quick look at the VCH (Berks) articles I suggested might
help affecting this line - viz. vol IV, the articles on Benham and
Avington, and they do appear to disagree. Here's what I mean - and
what I think may be happening:
First of all, VCH (Oxon), VI, 244, has Gerard who m. Nicolaa de la
Haye as the s. of Richard who d. 1176-77. Now VCH (Berks, Behnham
article), IV, 104, seems to say the same - calling Gerard the elder
bro of Richard who (d. 1191).
But in the VCH (Berks) _Avington_ article (IV, 158), the same Gerard
(who m. Nicolaa de la Haye) is given as s. of Richard who d. 1191 at
the seige of Acre (though this Richard is perhaps problematically
described as the Richard holding Avington in 1166-7, when we might
speculate that the Richard referred to here may be Richard who d.
1176-77).
What I think is telling are the phrasing and details of the _Benham_
article: Richard (d. 1191) is "succeeded by his son John....The
lands [of Benham] still appear, however, in his [Richard's] name in
1196-7 and 1198, and no inquisition was held as to his death until
the reign of Henry III. John died without issue, and the manor was
seized by his uncle Gerard, Richard's elder brother."
This apparent anomaly, pointed up by VCH - that is, that the lands of
'Richard' 'still appear' in his name 5-7 years after his death (which
does happen) - combined with the fact that the matter is not legally
articulated until at least 25 years after his death (Hen. III begins
1216) - suggests to me the equal possibility that another Richard,
perhaps s. of Richard (d. 1191) was actually in possession after
1191, and is the Richard referred to in the I.p.m., and is the
younger bro of Gerard. This would make Gerard the s. and not the
brother of Richard (d. 1191). As you can see, I'm playing devil's
advocate here (giving the counter-argument a chance, as in It's a
rotten job but s/body's gotta do it).
This would coincide with part (and conflict with none) of the account
I mentioned in my last. It would suit Ivor West's sequence - though
I'm less worried than he is about the suggestion that Richard II [d.
1191] at 70ish would still seem to be too old for the governorship of
Cyprus. (John of Brienne when 'a penniless knight and younger son'
(as Runciman says) was made King of Jerusalem at over 60, and regent
of the Empire of Constantinople, though long-since ejected from
Jerusalem and out of a job, at nearly 80.)
We need to notice, though, that one apparent candidate for this
'later Richard de Camville' -- viz. Richard who d. soon after
February 1217 (according to JFW Hill, _Medieval Lincoln_ [1948], 89)
and married Eustachia Basset (of whom more is known) -- is not a son
of a Richard but of Gerard and Nicolaa de Camville. And there seems
no way of treating their son Richard as the Richard of 1196-8
indicated above, since in this line his father Gerard would
presumably be the individual taking possession of Benham (as he
indeed did of Middleton Stoney and Godington) on the death of Richard
who d. 1191.
Unfortunately it's very difficult to determine sequence/parentage
here by means of chronology (i.e. via speculations as to undocumented
birthdates, particularly where - as is most common - it's only when
careers are established that individuals enter documentary history)
and certainly without closer study than I've given it. Gerard is
sheriff of Lincs by 1189 and thus could be son of either Richard de
Camville who d. 1176-7 or Richard who d. 1191.
To me a key document needing examination, then, is the inquiry post
mortem of Henry III. This is given in the Benham article (IV, 104)
as: Chan. Inq. p. m. Incert. temp. Hen. III no. 57. Does it
positively state that Richard who d. (at Acre) in 1191 is the Richard
in whose name Benham still appears in 1196-8? Or does it simply say
that Benham was held by an unspecified Richard de Camville during
those years? (E.g. merely -- as is common (and unhelpful here) --
'Richard de Camville was seised of Benham' etc.)? I'll try to get a
squint at it the next time I'm in the Bodleian, though this'll have
to be after the current univ. exam throes.
On balance - largely because of not only the general shift of weight
among the various readings we've been looking at but because of the
earliness of the heavy activity of e.g. Gerard and Nicolaa (an
extraordinary figure) - I feel that the Richard (d. 1176-7)->Richard
(d.1191) sequence I quoted in my last may prove most reliable, that
Gerard's going to come out as s. of Richard (d. 1176-7), and you're
going to be left with the post-1191 Richard issue to play with as you
like.
I think, by the way, that Doug Richardson's suggestions are right,
here, and helpful. As is his query about the date for Isabel.
I've the strong feeling that, not being in the swing of this problem,
I'm leaving out considerations you've prowled through at some length,
so forgive me for jumping in. But you've got uz really interested
now - and I do feel that the need to look at the records draws nigh
(!) Meantime, do give us a sense of what you feel in scanning these
off-the-top thoughts! And thanks again for listening with such an
open spirit. Are you _sure_ you're a <relative newcomer>?
Cheers,
Cris
Dexter Kenfield
genealogy for years, but this medieval stuff is a whole different
world. I haven't even begun to scratch the surface, and it involves
an entirely different kind of materials and sources. I have neither
the time nor the right resources to do it properly - it will take
years. (I do have the New York Public Library, but not much time,
alas, to spend there.) And as a contemporary New Englander, I'm
afraid my knowledge of medieval English history is a tad short as
well! So I've got lots to learn.
So I was hoping to tap into the collective knowledge of the group.
Which has worked, I'm happy to say. I now have some good leads, and a
bit more confidence in the basic outline of what I had assembled.
I've concluded that there is no solid answer on which Richard married
Millicent - I'm going to leave her where she is for now in my file
(married to Gerard's grandson, i.e. Richard II).
Clearly there are more generations involved, and as noted in the
group, we're also seeing references to nephews, etc. in addition to
direct lines. I'll post what I have shortly to close out this
thread.
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> In which case, it makes an awkward chronology for Milisent as things seem to
> point to an 1150 generation for Gerard. I see that DNB has Gerard as son of
> Richard, Governor of Cyprus, and has Robert III de Marmion (d.1185) married
> to Elizabeth, daughter of Gervaise de Rethel and Elizabeth de Namur, with
> Robert II (d.1143) married to Milisent NN. I take it that the Milisent that
> we are talking about here is Milisent de Rethel, grandniece of Godfrey de
> Bouillon, and not some other.
Yes. DNB is confused here. It was known that a daughter of Gervaise
married Robert Marmion, and it was only assumed that this was Elizabeth,
wife of Robert II. However, onomastics point to Millisent, as does the
fact that one of her children by Camville is refered to as kinsman of
the Queen, which makes sense if Millisent is the Rethel heiress.
taf
John T. Lyman
Todd and others,
Did Richard de Camville have any children by Millicent de Rethel? If he did
have a first wife (Adelicia?), she could be the mother of all his children.
Could a stepmother have been refered to as a kinsman? Here I am refering to an
prior posting of Bob Baxter:
rsba...@bellsouth.net (Robert S Baxter) wrote:
>In Loyd's ANGLO-NORMAN FAMILIES, " RICHARD DE CAMVILLE (d. 1176) gave to the
>abbey of Jumieges the tithes of his land at Hautot-l'Auvray(the next parish
>to Canville) in a charter which mentions his two wives Adelicia and Milisent
>and his brother Roger.
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Did Richard de Camville have any children by Millicent de Rethel? If he did
> have a first wife (Adelicia?), she could be the mother of all his children.
> Could a stepmother have been refered to as a kinsman? Here I am refering to an
> prior posting of Bob Baxter:
>
> rsba...@bellsouth.net (Robert S Baxter) wrote:
>
> >In Loyd's ANGLO-NORMAN FAMILIES, " RICHARD DE CAMVILLE (d. 1176) gave to the
> >abbey of Jumieges the tithes of his land at Hautot-l'Auvray(the next parish
> >to Canville) in a charter which mentions his two wives Adelicia and Milisent
> >and his brother Roger.
Most accounts I have seen make all of his children by Milicent. Some
could have been by Adelisia, but a step-son of Milisent would not have
been called kinsman of the Queen (unless Adelicia was likewise the
Queen's kin, but this is not likely). I think it was Richard who is
called the Queen's kinsman, so he would be Milicent's.
taf
Richard Borthwick
>Todd A. Farmerie <farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
>
>> Ivor West wrote:
>> >
>> > In which case, it makes an awkward chronology for Milisent as things
>seem to
>> > point to an 1150 generation for Gerard. I see that DNB has Gerard as
>son of
>> > Richard, Governor of Cyprus, and has Robert III de Marmion (d.1185)
>married
>> > to Elizabeth, daughter of Gervaise de Rethel and Elizabeth de Namur, with
>> > Robert II (d.1143) married to Milisent NN. I take it that the Milisent
>that
>> > we are talking about here is Milisent de Rethel, grandniece of Godfrey de
>> > Bouillon, and not some other.
>>
>> Yes. DNB is confused here. It was known that a daughter of Gervaise
>> married Robert Marmion, and it was only assumed that this was Elizabeth,
>> wife of Robert II. However, onomastics point to Millisent, as does the
>> fact that one of her children by Camville is refered to as kinsman of
>> the Queen, which makes sense if Millisent is the Rethel heiress.
>>
>> taf
>
>Todd and others,
>
>have a first wife (Adelicia?), she could be the mother of all his children.
>Could a stepmother have been refered to as a kinsman? Here I am refering
to an
>prior posting of Bob Baxter:
>
>rsba...@bellsouth.net (Robert S Baxter) wrote:
>
>>In Loyd's ANGLO-NORMAN FAMILIES, " RICHARD DE CAMVILLE (d. 1176) gave to the
>>abbey of Jumieges the tithes of his land at Hautot-l'Auvray(the next parish
>>to Canville) in a charter which mentions his two wives Adelicia and Milisent
>>and his brother Roger.
>
wife in 1143 was Alice (Adelicia). Richard must have married Milisent in or
after 1144 since her first husband died 1143/44. [CP X: Appendix J, 112 &
note (j)]
Richard (d.1191) appears to have been a son of Milisent since it was
through him that Stanton, Oxon, (a gift of queen Adeliza to Milisent)
passed to his daughter Isabel and then to the Harcourt family. Griffiths
in in his sketch pedigree also indicates that Richard (d.1191) was
Milisent's son. [VCH Oxon 12:274; R A Griffiths "The Cartulary and
Muniments of the Fort Family of Llanstephan" reprinted in that author's
*Conquerors and Conquered in Medieval Wales* (Stroud, 1994) 198-199].
As an aside (and with apologies if this has already been dealt with). As
far as I know the identity of Richard (d.1176)'s father is unknown. If I am
wrong about this and his name is 'Gerard' what is the evidence for this? CP
and Keats-Rohan think it likely/possible that Richard's maternal
grandfather was Aubrey (I) de Vere (d.1112) of Hedingham, Oxon. [CP X:
Appendix J, 112 & note (j); K S B Keats-Rohan *Domesday People: A
Prosopography of Persons occurring in English Documents, 1066-1166* (The
Boydell Press: Woodbridge, 1999) I:132]
>
>
>
rta...@my-deja.com
"Ivor West" <i...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>
>
> If you are seeking contemporary references to Camville, the Curia
Regis Roll of 1200 mentions Robert, m. Margaret FitzPayne, and Richard
[son of > Gerard] m. Eustacia [Basset/ Verdun]. The latter seems to
put Gerard into > the 1150 generation, as does his sister Maud's
husband William de Ros, > brother of Robert de Ros, (1153 - 1227).
>
> Ivor West
>
>
I've been following the de Camville posts with interest but I'm sorry,
I'm a tad confused. Can anyone explain how the Richard who married
Eustacia Basset fits in with the family of Richard, father of Isabel?
Thanks, Roger
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ivor West
<rta...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8hffmu$d9p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Well, if you think that Isabel is the daughter of Richard d. 1191,
Richard who married Eustachia would be his nephew (son of Gerald and
Nicholaa). On the other hand, if you think that Isabel may be the
daughter of Richard d. 1176, he would be his grandson.
Ivor West
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> .
> <rta...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8hffmu$d9p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> sorry,
> > I'm a tad confused. Can anyone explain how the Richard who married
> > Eustacia Basset fits in with the family of Richard, father of
> Isabel?
> >
> Richard who married Eustachia would be his nephew (son of Gerald and
> Nicholaa). On the other hand, if you think that Isabel may be the
> daughter of Richard d. 1176, he would be his grandson.
While I know what you are trying to say, this may confuse some (which he
is "he" and "his" refering to?).
So,
Richard m. Eustacia Basset was son of Gerald, son of Richard d. 1176.
Isabel is traditionally daughter of Richard d. 1191, son of Richard d.
1176, but Isabel may (as has been discussed here) have been be daughter
of Richard d. 1176.
taf
rta...@my-deja.com
because posters would use "he" or "his" where it wasn't exactly clear
(to me, at least) which Richard was being referred to....
Many thanks,