BOWES-LYON family tree posted
Sam Sloan
I have just spent the past three days working on the family tree of
Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the Queen Mother, who died in March at age 101.
I started on this project because I remembered that she had two
nieces, cousins of Queen Elizabeth II, who had been locked up in
mental hospitals for more than 50 years.
I want to thank the many people who helped me in this search.
What I found most surprising is that while there are many websites
dealing with the Royal Family tree, almost none of them make any
mention of this branch of the British Royal Family. It seems that they
are almost persona non grata.
From most websites, one would imagine that the Queen Mother was an
only child. In reality, she had six brothers and three sisters.
Two of her nieces, both sons of her brother John Herbert BOWES-LYON
(1886-1930), have been confined in mental hospitals almost since their
birth. The youngest, Katherine BOWES-LYON, who was born 4 July 1926,
is apparently still alive or at least her death had not been
announced.
In addition, Queen Elizabeth had an uncle, John Charles Francis
WINDSOR (1905-1919) who was an epileptic who had to be restrained
until he died.
The BOWES-LYON family tried to marry well. I was surprised to discover
that one of them had married the great-granddaughter of John Jacob
Astor, one of the richest men in America. Imagine the chagrin of the
Astor Family when they realized that their daughter had married into
the wrong branch of the British Royal Family. Rachel Pauline
SPENDER-CLAY, who was the granddaughter of William Waldorf Astor,
after whom the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York City is named,
married David BOWES-LYON, the uncle of Queen Elizabeth II of England.
Helen Schermerhorn ASTOR married James Roosevelt, the half-brother of
President Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
I have posted all these family links on my website as follows:
Elizabeth, the Queen Mother
http://www.shamema.com/pafg358.htm#13383
Nerissa Bowes-Lyon
http://www.shamema.com/pafg429.htm#17700
Katherine Bowes-Lyon
http://www.shamema.com/pafg429.htm#17700
John Charles Francis WINDSOR
http://www.shamema.com/pafg349.htm#12259C
John Jacob Astor
http://www.shamema.com/pafg431.htm#17780
Rachel Pauline SPENDER-CLAY
http://www.shamema.com/pafg430.htm#17710
James Roosevelt
http://www.shamema.com/pafg432.htm#17795
President Franklin Delano Roosevelt
http://www.shamema.com/pafg434.htm#17836
Sam Sloan
PS. I have no relationship with any of these people, except that I
live near Astoria, Queens, which was named after John Jacob Astor.
Leo van de Pas
I only looked at a bit and, sorry to say, I am disappointed you call George
VI George Windsor, Princess Margaret Windsor. No-where, anywhere should
you see that. I suppose it is your system that forces you? These days many
people do not realise that there is a difference between a 'House' and a
'Family', often they overlap but there is a difference.
Best wishes
Leo
Michael W Cook
sl...@ishipress.com wrote on 20/12/02 9:41 pm:
> I started on this project because I remembered that she had two
> nieces, cousins of Queen Elizabeth II, who had been locked up in
> mental hospitals for more than 50 years.
Can you expand on this.
I remember one of them, she died a few years ago. Were either of them
officially diagnosed ? - I've been discussing porphyria and hereditary
disorders in the royal households of Europe elsewhere.
Around 1900, some Princes of the Royal Houses of Spain, Russia, Prussia and
England all suffered from haemophilia. All were descendants of Victoria, who
herself was grand daughter of Mr Porphyria himself - George III.
I haven't followed the lines back myself, but I believe George III was a
descendent of King Charles VI of France(1368-1422), who also suffered from
porphyria. His first attack of insanity occurred in 1392, when he suddenly
killed 4 of his own men before he could be overpowered. He was said to have
been in a sort of coma for several days after, and suffered similar attacks
for the rest of his life. His daughter Catherine's marriage to Henry V
probably passed the gene onto Henry VI.
Interesting, thanks for any help.
Regards
Michael
Michael W Cook
mwc...@crusader-productions.com
Castles Abbeys and Medieval Buildings
http://www.castles-abbeys.co.uk
-
LizR
>BOWES-LYON family tree posted
>
>I have just spent the past three days working on the family tree of
>Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the Queen Mother, who died in March at age 101.
Well done. Presumably it's been done before & you're working from secondary sources?
Otherwise you're a mighty fast worker:-)
>
>I started on this project because I remembered that she had two
>nieces, cousins of Queen Elizabeth II, who had been locked up in
>mental hospitals for more than 50 years.
And?
>I want to thank the many people who helped me in this search.
>
>What I found most surprising is that while there are many websites
>dealing with the Royal Family tree, almost none of them make any
>mention of this branch of the British Royal Family. It seems that they
>are almost persona non grata.
Umm... I didn't think the Bowes-Lyons were part of the Royal Family. Apart from the
Queen Mum, that is.
>From most websites, one would imagine that the Queen Mother was an
>only child. In reality, she had six brothers and three sisters.
Yes, yes, we know. Her brother Fergus was killed in WWI. Here he is, properly
honoured by his country:
http://www.cwgc.org.uk/detailed.asp?casualty=728198
>Two of her nieces, both sons of her brother John Herbert BOWES-LYON
>(1886-1930), have been confined in mental hospitals almost since their
>birth. The youngest, Katherine BOWES-LYON, who was born 4 July 1926,
>is apparently still alive or at least her death had not been
>announced.
And? What value is there in gossipping about these women? Do you think they are being
treated inhumanely or something? Can you conceive of a culture where other people's
medical details are private? Maybe you think they would benefit from being taken to
State occasions for everyone to gawp at?
>In addition, Queen Elizabeth had an uncle, John Charles Francis
>WINDSOR (1905-1919) who was an epileptic who had to be restrained
>until he died.
Restrained? He lived in quite some luxury at Sandringham with a governess. How do you
think that compared with other epileptics at that time? Would it have been droll to
have him risk a seizure at a State event? He was only a little boy, you know.
Incidentally, one of my great-uncles (1881 - 1890) had "something wrong with him".
That's all we know. Probably all the family ever knew.
People didn't start talking about these things openly until the 1960's or even later,
you know. That's just how it was.
>The BOWES-LYON family tried to marry well. I was surprised to discover
>that one of them had married the great-granddaughter of John Jacob
>Astor, one of the richest men in America. Imagine the chagrin of the
>Astor Family when they realized that their daughter had married into
>the wrong branch of the British Royal Family.
She didn't marry into the Royal Family. Royalty descends the generations in the male
line. It doesn't go back up the female line of anyone who marries a royal.
>Rachel Pauline
>SPENDER-CLAY, who was the granddaughter of William Waldorf Astor,
>after whom the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York City is named,
>married David BOWES-LYON, the uncle of Queen Elizabeth II of England.
Quite a catch, but he was never Royal. You'd think the Astors would have been a bit
more sussed than that:-)
>Helen Schermerhorn ASTOR married James Roosevelt, the half-brother of
>President Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
And this is a complete non-sequitor.
LizR
~~
Please reply through group. The address above is a spam-trap.
StanB
"Sam Sloan" <sl...@ishipress.com> wrote in message
news:3e038d4c...@ca.news.verio.net...
> I have just spent the past three days working on the family tree of
> Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the Queen Mother, who died in March at age 101.
I'm so happy I could shit.
StanB
Todd A. Farmerie
> BOWES-LYON family tree posted
>
soc.genealogy.britain, soc.genealogy.medieval,
soc.history.medieval, nyc.general, rec.games.chess.politics
This material is off topic in at least four of the five groups to
which it was posted. You know what you are doing is wrong. Stop it.
His Jadedness Andy
>What I found most surprising is that while there are many websites
>dealing with the Royal Family tree, almost none of them make any
>mention of this branch of the British Royal Family. It seems that they
>are almost persona non grata.
Perhaps it is because they are NOT a branch of the British Royal Family, merely
relatives of a person who married into the British Royal Family- which is an
entirely different thing.
"May your Morn be bright and sunny, your Noon be warm and clear, your Dusk be
calm and tranquil and your Night without a fear"
His Jadedness, Andy
Known Descendants of Queen Victoria Message Board
http://members3.boardhost.com/KDQV/
Ann Sharp
"Sam Sloan"
> From most websites, one would imagine that the Queen Mother was an
> only child. In reality, she had six brothers and three sisters.
>
> Two of her nieces, both sons of her brother John Herbert BOWES-LYON
> (1886-1930), have been confined in mental hospitals almost since their
> birth.
Ann:
If two of her nieces are both sons of her brother, it is certainly
remarkable that websites -- not to mention the tabloids -- would focus on
her in a way to create an impression that she was an only child. Aliens
visiting her grandchildren -- or was it great-grandchildren? my memory,
alas! -- is nothing to it.
Steve Hayes
>I'm so happy I could shit.
The mind boggles.
--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: haye...@yahoo.com
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/
Sam Sloan
I tend to use the designations from the LDS. I am not an expert. I am
basically a beginner. If you have an alternative, I would be very
interested in hearing it.
As I understand it, members of the Royal Family sometimes did not have
surnames. Again, I do not know. Somebody just said this.
So, please let me know what you think the correct names should be.
Sam Sloan
At 10:48 PM 12/21/2002 +1100, Leo van de Pas wrote:
>Dear Sam,
>I only looked at a bit and, sorry to say, I am disappointed you call George
>VI George Windsor, Princess Margaret Windsor. No-where, anywhere should
>you see that. I suppose it is your system that forces you? These days many
>people do not realise that there is a difference between a 'House' and a
>'Family', often they overlap but there is a difference.
>Best wishes
>Leo
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Sam Sloan" <sl...@ishipress.com>
>To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
>Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 8:41 AM
>Subject: BOWES-LYON family tree posted
>
>
Don Aitken
<mwc...@crusader-productions.com> wrote:
[newsgroups pruned]
>in article 3e038d4c...@ca.news.verio.net, Sam Sloan at
>sl...@ishipress.com wrote on 20/12/02 9:41 pm:
>
>> I started on this project because I remembered that she had two
>> nieces, cousins of Queen Elizabeth II, who had been locked up in
>> mental hospitals for more than 50 years.
>
>Can you expand on this.
>
>I remember one of them, she died a few years ago. Were either of them
>officially diagnosed ? - I've been discussing porphyria and hereditary
>disorders in the royal households of Europe elsewhere.
>
>Around 1900, some Princes of the Royal Houses of Spain, Russia, Prussia and
>England all suffered from haemophilia. All were descendants of Victoria, who
>herself was grand daughter of Mr Porphyria himself - George III.
>
I don't think that there is any connection at all between hemophilia
and porphyria. What makes you think ther might be?
>I haven't followed the lines back myself, but I believe George III was a
>descendent of King Charles VI of France(1368-1422),
He may well be, but so are an awful lot of other people.
> who also suffered from
>porphyria.
I don't think that this is at all well-established. Diagnosis at such
a distance is a dubious business, but most descriptions sound pretty
much like classic schizophrenia.
> His first attack of insanity occurred in 1392, when he suddenly
>killed 4 of his own men before he could be overpowered. He was said to have
>been in a sort of coma for several days after, and suffered similar attacks
>for the rest of his life. His daughter Catherine's marriage to Henry V
>probably passed the gene onto Henry VI.
>
Who, of course, passed it on to nobody, since his only child died
without issue.
Henry's case seems to be one of catatonia. The fact that George III
had porphyria 400 years later is of no relevance at all - and in any
case, his symptoms were excatly the opposite of Henry's.
--
Don Aitken
Eve McLaughlin
Cook <mwc...@crusader-productions.com> writes
>in article 3e038d4c...@ca.news.verio.net, Sam Sloan at
>sl...@ishipress.com wrote on 20/12/02 9:41 pm:
>
>> I started on this project because I remembered that she had two
>> nieces, cousins of Queen Elizabeth II, who had been locked up in
>> mental hospitals for more than 50 years.
>
>Can you expand on this.
>
>I remember one of them, she died a few years ago. Were either of them
>officially diagnosed ? - I've been discussing porphyria and hereditary
>disorders in the royal households of Europe elsewhere.
The Bowes Lyons are not royal - just one of the daughters happened to
marry into the royal house.
--
Eve McLaughlin
Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians
Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society
PDel...@aol.com
family marries into the royal Family, this does not mean that the Bowes-Lyons
are Royal, Legally or by association - Would Mr Schwarzenegger beacuse he has
married a half Kennedy be a Kennedy? OR would the family of Miss Smith marrid
to Mr Jones call itself a part of the Jones Family - certainly not.
The Bowes Lyons might be referred to as Royal by ignorami but it does not
consider itself as such.
Another Mis representation, in this case, by the press, is that the
Grandchildren through the female line of an important house, be it a Royal
one or a Noble one, are not of that House, they are merely related. This is a
point of Law and can only be termed as 'by association', although association
throuhg several years and maybe generations can turn itself into a semblance
of the truth! Call yourself King for long enough and people will eventually
call you your Majesty!
Peter de Loriol
D. Spencer Hines
great-grandson ---- because he is a descendant of Henry VII, whose
grandmother, Catherine de France is a daughter of Charles VI. There are two
lines.
However, I'm not drawing any conclusions concerning hemophilia or porphyria
from that historical and genealogical fact.
Deus Vult
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Sol Disinfectus Optimus Est. Peccatoris Justificatio Absque Paenitentia,
Legem Destruit Moralem.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in
your philosophy." ---- William Shakespeare [1564-1616] The Tragedy of Hamlet,
Prince of Denmark, Act I, Scene V, Line 166-167
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original material
contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It may be quoted
only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution to the author,
unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in writing.
------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:3E048EB4...@interfold.com...
| Don Aitken wrote:
| > On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 00:03:55 +0000 (UTC), Michael W Cook
| > <mwc...@crusader-productions.com> wrote:
| >
| > [newsgroups pruned]
|
| [further]
|
| >>I remember one of them, she died a few years ago. Were either of them
| >>officially diagnosed ? - I've been discussing porphyria and hereditary
| >>disorders in the royal households of Europe elsewhere.
| >>
| >>Around 1900, some Princes of the Royal Houses of Spain, Russia, Prussia
and
| >>England all suffered from haemophilia. All were descendants of Victoria,
who
| >>herself was grand daughter of Mr Porphyria himself - George III.
| >
| > I don't think that there is any connection at all between hemophilia
| > and porphyria. What makes you think ther might be?
|
|
| There is not. Completely different genetic deficits.
|
|
| >>I haven't followed the lines back myself, but I believe George III was a
| >>descendent of King Charles VI of France(1368-1422),
| >
| >
| > He may well be, but so are an awful lot of other people.
| >
| >
| >>who also suffered from
| >>porphyria.
| >
| >
| > I don't think that this is at all well-established. Diagnosis at such
| > a distance is a dubious business, but most descriptions sound pretty
| > much like classic schizophrenia.
|
| This (the extended porphyria descent) is that proposed in the
| 1970s, in an attempt to trace back George's porphyria to earlier
| times. The initial study made a strong case for Mary, Queen of
| Scots being a sufferer, (her son, James VI/I is documented to
| have had urine the color of his favorite red wine, and said he
| got it from his mother). It was suggested that her cousin
| Arabella Stuart (do I have the right name? It's been about 15
| years since I read this stuff) also suffered, their common
| ancestor being Margaret, sister of Henry VIII. It was likewise
| suggested that Arthur Tudor may have shown symptoms. This was
| all in the original book and articles first characterizing the
| disorder.
|
| Subsequently, someone suggested in a medical history journal that
| perhaps it could be traced earlier, but by looking for other
| symptoms. Through history, doctors did not always notice the
| same symptoms, and so the same disease may be described in
| different ways (it was argued). . . .
|
|
| >>His first attack of insanity occurred in 1392, when he suddenly
| >>killed 4 of his own men before he could be overpowered. He was said to
have
| >>been in a sort of coma for several days after, and suffered similar
attacks
| >>for the rest of his life. His daughter Catherine's marriage to Henry V
| >>probably passed the gene onto Henry VI.
| >>
| >
| > Who, of course, passed it on to nobody, since his only child died
| > without issue.
| >
| > Henry's case seems to be one of catatonia. The fact that George III
| > had porphyria 400 years later is of no relevance at all - and in any
| > case, his symptoms were excatly the opposite of Henry's.
|
| Starting with Henry VII and wife as the common ancestors of the
| hypothesized Stuart and Tudor cases, the author decided that the
| mental abnormalities would be the most likely symptom to be
| described, and looked for symptoms among the parents of Henry and
| Elizabeth. It is found in the person of Henry's maternal uncle,
| Henry VI, who appears to have suffered intermittent bouts of some
| psychological disorder, not inconsistent with George III's
| timeline (although appearing differently in the surviving
| record). With Henry VI and his uterine brother identified as
| conduits, it became natural to look at their mother Catherine's
| family, and that is what led to Charles VI. (An even earlier
| connection was suggested, but I don't recall the details.)
|
| That, then, is how the theory ran. Certainly the connection to
| James I, and hence Mary, is reasonable, (though neither proven
| nor provable) as porphyria is frequently diagnosed through the
| red-colored urine. IIRC, Arabella Stuart was tabbed for general
| flakyness, while Arthur appeared to be light-sensitive. Thus
| these might be consistent with porphyria, but unlike the red
| urine, do not directly suggest it (the light-sensitivity being
| more suggestive of the two, yet it is not clear that this ys what
| is being described at all). As we move to the earlier
| connections, Henry VI, Charles VI, and earlier, there is nothing
| in their historical accounts to suggest porphyria above any other
| etiology for their apparent mental health issues.
|
| taf
Steve Hayes
>BOWES-LYON family tree posted
>
>I have just spent the past three days working on the family tree of
>Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the Queen Mother, who died in March at age 101.
>
>I started on this project because I remembered that she had two
>nieces, cousins of Queen Elizabeth II, who had been locked up in
>mental hospitals for more than 50 years.
>
>I want to thank the many people who helped me in this search.
Do you have it available as a GEDCOM, or do you know where I could find a
GEDCOM file of it?
Sam Sloan
>On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:41:07 GMT, sl...@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) wrote:
>
>>
>>I have just spent the past three days working on the family tree of
>>Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the Queen Mother, who died in March at age 101.
>>
>>I started on this project because I remembered that she had two
>>nieces, cousins of Queen Elizabeth II, who had been locked up in
>>mental hospitals for more than 50 years.
>>
>>I want to thank the many people who helped me in this search.
>
>GEDCOM file of it?
>
>
>--
>Steve Hayes
>E-mail: haye...@yahoo.com
>Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/
>
Sure. You wrote at just the right time, because I just updated it five
minutes ago.
The entire GEDCOM file, in zip format, is at
http://www.shamema.com/sloanged.zip
Sam Sloan
Sam Sloan
>On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:41:07 GMT, sl...@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) wrote:
>
>>
>>I have just spent the past three days working on the family tree of
>>Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the Queen Mother, who died in March at age 101.
>>
>>I started on this project because I remembered that she had two
>>nieces, cousins of Queen Elizabeth II, who had been locked up in
>>mental hospitals for more than 50 years.
>>
>>I want to thank the many people who helped me in this search.
>
>GEDCOM file of it?
>
>
>--
>Steve Hayes
>E-mail: haye...@yahoo.com
>Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/
>
Sure. You wrote at just the right time, because I just updated it five
minutes ago.
The entire GEDCOM file, in zip format, is at
http://www.shamema.com/sloanged.zip
Sam Sloan
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:41:07 GMT, sl...@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan)
wrote:
>BOWES-LYON family tree posted
Frank Martin
fair share of dorks, geeks, trolls, sailors, nerds, apes,
buffoons, mad women, and sticky-fingered teens, grinches,
poor spellers, off posters, bullies and the dissociatively
fugued.
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3e04054e....@news.saix.net...
Bryn Fraser
>On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:56:39 -0500, "StanB" <stan...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>I'm so happy I could shit.
>
>The mind boggles.
I read the Subject line as "Bowels-yon". Ain't dyslexia fun...
>
>
--
Bryn Fraser
~~~~~~~~~~~
The index of the scales - We praise or blame according to whether the one or the
other offers a greater opportunity for our power of judgement to shine out.
Nietzsche [HA 86]
________________________________________
XX XX
XX http://www.finhall.demon.co.uk XX
XX http://www.thefrasers.com XX
XX____________________________________XX
Renia
> in article 3e038d4c...@ca.news.verio.net, Sam Sloan at
> sl...@ishipress.com wrote on 20/12/02 9:41 pm:
>
>
>>I started on this project because I remembered that she had two
>>nieces, cousins of Queen Elizabeth II, who had been locked up in
>>mental hospitals for more than 50 years.
>
>
> Can you expand on this.
>
> I remember one of them, she died a few years ago. Were either of them
> officially diagnosed ? - I've been discussing porphyria and hereditary
> disorders in the royal households of Europe elsewhere.
>
> Around 1900, some Princes of the Royal Houses of Spain, Russia, Prussia and
> England all suffered from haemophilia. All were descendants of Victoria, who
> herself was grand daughter of Mr Porphyria himself - George III.
But this is the House the Queen Mother married into. That does not mean
that her Sottish clan had the same afflition/s.
Renia
Renia
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:41:07 GMT, sl...@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) wrote:
>
>
>>BOWES-LYON family tree posted
>>
>>I have just spent the past three days working on the family tree of
>>Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the Queen Mother, who died in March at age 101.
>>
>>I started on this project because I remembered that she had two
>>nieces, cousins of Queen Elizabeth II, who had been locked up in
>>mental hospitals for more than 50 years.
>>
>>I want to thank the many people who helped me in this search.
>
>
> Do you have it available as a GEDCOM, or do you know where I could find a
> GEDCOM file of it?
Why? Are you related?
Renia
Frank Martin
anyway? Have you read the latest English fish-wraps,
trumpeting about poor Harry being the love-child of Diana
and her then lover? Why doesn't the Queen insist on having
him tested to dispel these errant rumours: after all, do we
want some bastard mongrel changeling as a Royal???
Tsk! of course not.
Modern statistical research, backed up by blood-group and
DNA tests indicate that between 10 - 20% of children have
fathers other than those married to their mothers. Clearly
the world is 'steeped in nameless bastardy' and a welcome
proposal floated here recently would make DNA tests
compulsory at birth. It's frightening to consider that about
20% of people on this NG are bastards, and that one's wife
has a 20% chance of being a bastard, and that one's rug-rats
could be someone else's!!!! What a hideous and frightening
prospect!! Of course it explains some things about certain
people. In medieval times paternity was a matter of
convenience, and who knows how many kings were fathered by
stable boys!
Happy Xmas all. Bastards excepted.
"Renia" <ren...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3E0522D6...@ntlworld.com...
Steve Hayes
>>Do you have it available as a GEDCOM, or do you know where I could find a
>>GEDCOM file of it?
>Sure. You wrote at just the right time, because I just updated it five
>minutes ago.
>
>The entire GEDCOM file, in zip format, is at
>http://www.shamema.com/sloanged.zip
Thank you - where did you get the information?
I noticed it was incomplete, and would like to get information on the missing
branches of the family.
Steve Hayes
Possibly. The GEDCOM was incomplete anyway.
Eric Hartup
"Bryn Fraser" <br...@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gQufQDA4...@finhall.demon.co.uk...
> Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> writes
> >On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:56:39 -0500, "StanB" <stan...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
>
> I read the Subject line as "Bowels-yon". Ain't dyslexia fun...
Eric H
AGeorgeSand
him tested to dispel these errant rumours: after all, do we
want some bastard mongrel changeling as a Royal???
Tsk! of course not."
if the mother was married, they're not bastards...
"a welcome proposal floated here recently would make
DNA tests compulsory at birth. "
Welcome by whom? Compulsory why?
Who needs civil liberties, eh Franky?
You know, not everyone is building their lives
around a future genealogy book; a lot dont worry
a bit about such things, & few feel criminal about
the little tit for tats that may occur in the course of
a "significant other" relationship... but generally, a
woman never thinks of infidelity untill she's fed up
with her mate's... so clean up your act & you
won't need the testing, to know...
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Frank Martin <fr...@general.com.au>
À : GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date : dimanche 22 décembre 2002 04:33
Objet : Re: BOWES-LYON family tree posted
Just how accurate are family trees without DNA testing
anyway? Have you read the latest English fish-wraps,
trumpeting about poor Harry being the love-child of Diana
and her then lover? Why doesn't the Queen insist on having
him tested to dispel these errant rumours: after all, do we
want some bastard mongrel changeling as a Royal???
Tsk! of course not.
Modern statistical research, backed up by blood-group and
DNA tests indicate that between 10 - 20% of children have
fathers other than those married to their mothers. Clearly
the world is 'steeped in nameless bastardy' and a welcome
proposal floated here recently would make DNA tests
compulsory at birth. It's frightening to consider that about
20% of people on this NG are bastards, and that one's wife
has a 20% chance of being a bastard, and that one's rug-rats
could be someone else's!!!! What a hideous and frightening
prospect!! Of course it explains some things about certain
people. In medieval times paternity was a matter of
convenience, and who knows how many kings were fathered by
stable boys!
Happy Xmas all. Bastards excepted.
"Renia" <ren...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3E0522D6...@ntlworld.com...
| Steve Hayes wrote:
| > On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:41:07 GMT, sl...@ishipress.com
(Sam Sloan) wrote:
| >
| >
| >>BOWES-LYON family tree posted
| >>
| >>I have just spent the past three days working on the
family tree of
| >>Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the Queen Mother, who died in
March at age 101.
| >>
| >>I started on this project because I remembered that she
had two
| >>nieces, cousins of Queen Elizabeth II, who had been
locked up in
| >>mental hospitals for more than 50 years.
| >>
| >>I want to thank the many people who helped me in this
search.
| >
| >
| > Do you have it available as a GEDCOM, or do you know
where I could find a
| > GEDCOM file of it?
|
| Why? Are you related?
|
| Renia
|
PDel...@aol.com
A French comital branch of my paternal family was about to die out at the
time of the French Revolution. 2 infant children, son and daughter of a
successful Lyon coal merchant, were adopted at only a few months old. This
remained secret until I unearthed it with a friend some twenty years ago
...the present (9th) Comte may be aware of this, but I would never divulge
it to him for fear of offending him - nevertheless it does not make his
tenure of the title and the bearer of his patronymic any the less legal.
regards
Peter de Loriol
PDel...@aol.com
if this fact will be in the Bowe-Lyons family pedigree - she married a
Goodwin.
regards
Peter de Loriol
PDel...@aol.com
Sam Sloan
wrote:
Of course it is incomplete.
Is your family tree complete?
Tell me which branches are missing and I will see what I can do.
Sam
Graeme Wall
"Eric Hartup" <eha...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Or the dyslexic atheist who stayed awake all night wondering if there /was/ a
Dog...
I`ll get my coat.
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
Richard Corbett
"Graeme Wall" <Gra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3cf8f4a84b%Gra...@greywall.demon.co.uk...
> In message <wfdN9.5213$Oc4....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>
> "Eric Hartup" <eha...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> > "Bryn Fraser" <br...@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:gQufQDA4...@finhall.demon.co.uk...
> > > Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> writes
> > > >On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:56:39 -0500, "StanB" <stan...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > > I read the Subject line as "Bowels-yon". Ain't dyslexia fun...
> > Reminds me of the dyslexic devil worshipper who worshipped SANTA !!
> > Eric H
> >
> >
> Or the dyslexic atheist who stayed awake all night wondering if there
/was/ a
> Dog...
>
> I`ll get my coat.
> --
> Graeme Wall
.......or the dyslexic pimp who bought a warehouse.......
I'll get mine too Graeme.......
Richard Corbett
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 17/12/02
Steve Hayes
>>>The entire GEDCOM file, in zip format, is at
>>>http://www.shamema.com/sloanged.zip
>>
>>Thank you - where did you get the information?
>>
>>I noticed it was incomplete, and would like to get information on the missing
>>branches of the family.
>Of course it is incomplete.
>
>Is your family tree complete?
>
>Tell me which branches are missing and I will see what I can do.
I wasn't asking you to do anything, other than to let me know what sorces you
used, and if you know of any that might be useful.
I'm looking for an Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon who married a Donald MacDonald
MacLeod.
Andy Beattie
with some only having 2 individuals,
and 1 person completely unlinked from the rest
There's US presidents, the Royal GEDCOM, Sam Loan's, and many more
Steve Hayes wrote:
> Sam Sloan wrote:
>
> >>>The entire GEDCOM file, in zip format, is at
> >>> http://www.shamema.com/sloanged.zip
> >>
> >>Thank you - where did you get the information?
> >>
> >>I noticed it was incomplete, and would like to get information on the
missing
> >>branches of the family.
>
> >Of course it is incomplete.
> >
> >Is your family tree complete?
> >
> >Tell me which branches are missing and I will see what I can do.
>
> I wasn't asking you to do anything, other than to let me know what sorces
you
> used, and if you know of any that might be useful.
>
> I'm looking for an Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon who married a Donald MacDonald
> MacLeod.
---
Outgoing mail from my PC is certified Virus Free!
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 17-Dec-02
Sam Sloan
<an...@beattie1969.freeserve.THESPAMTRAPco.uk> wrote:
>The file is 67 separate lines all in the same file
>with some only having 2 individuals,
>and 1 person completely unlinked from the rest
>
>There's US presidents, the Royal GEDCOM, Sam Loan's, and many more
Thank you for counting them. I had not done that.
The one person unlinked from the rest is Samuel Sloan III, a famous
securities trader and member of the New York Stock Exchange. I did not
link him because, although he is obviously the son of Sam Sloan Jr., I
did not know which Sam Sloan Jr. he is the son of. There are several
possibles and I am hoping that someone will tell me.
http://www.shamema.com/pafg437.htm
This man is important to my life story because I got my first real
job, which was at Hayden Stone, because everybody assumed that I was
his son, where he was Senior Partner. He was not happy when he found
out about this, but I was so good at my job as an over-the-counter
trader that I got to keep it. I was given almost exactly the same job
that he had, except that I was an over-the-counter trader and he was a
floor trader on the New York Stock Exchange.
A person unconnected is Peter Ponten.
http://www.shamema.com/pafg112.htm#3960
Every person in Sweden with a name spelled that way should be my
relative, except that we cannot identify this person. I put him in,
again hoping that somebody will find how he is related to us.
Another example is a family named Hardesty.
http://www.shamema.com/pafg140.htm#3932
This is caused by the fact that there is a page missing from my copy
of the Graham Family Book. The missing page will show how these people
are related to me. I am hoping that someday somebody will send me the
missing page so that I can link us together.
I am impressed that you figured out that there are 67 seperate lines
in my GEDCOM file. How did you determine that?
If you want to perform a great service, you can tell me how the
Roosevelt Presidents are descended from Lady Godiva. Roosevelt got in
there, not because he was president, but because he was an inlaw of an
inlaw of the Queen Mother Elizabeth BOWES-LYON. I do know that
Roosevelt is a descendant of the famous naked Lady Godiva, but I do
not know exactly how.
Sam Sloan
D. Spencer Hines
the 29th Great-Grandmother of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt ---- in
accordance with the relationships previously established and standard FDR
lines. She is the 31st Great-Grandmother of President George Walker Bush.
Deus Vult.
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains --- after the
Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied man in his
victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Sam Sloan" <sl...@ishipress.com> wrote in message
news:3e09c113...@ca.news.verio.net...
D. Spencer Hines
To take just one, quite limited, example ---- everyone descended from Roger de
Mortimer, 1st Earl of March [who was executed by Edward III] and Joan de
Geneville [Joinville], his wife, is a descendant of Lady Godiva.
And that is a set of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people.
So, a descent from Lady Godiva is certainly no big thing at all.
Deus Vult.
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains --- after the
Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied man in his
victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spenc...@usa.yale.edu> wrote in message news:...
| Lady Godiva is the 27th Great-Grandmother of President Theodore Roosevelt
| and the 29th Great-Grandmother of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt
| ---- in accordance with the relationships previously established and
| standard FDR lines. She is the 31st Great-Grandmother of President George
| Walker Bush.
|
| Deus Vult.
| D. Spencer Hines
Doug McDonald
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
>
> Further To My Last:
>
> To take just one, quite limited, example ---- everyone descended from Roger de
> Mortimer, 1st Earl of March [who was executed by Edward III] and Joan de
> Geneville [Joinville], his wife, is a descendant of Lady Godiva.
>
Also anyone descended from Robert II of Scotland, and those children
of Robert the Bruce who descend from Elizabeth de Burgh.
Doug McDonald
Andy Beattie
> I am impressed that you figured out that there are 67 seperate lines
> in my GEDCOM file. How did you determine that?
I just opened the file in GENViewer
and clicked the ISLANDS tab
D. Spencer Hines
No one in SGM has said anything of the sort.
There is no "snobbery" involved at all.
Deus Vult.
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains --- after the
Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied man in his
victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
""Roy Stockdill"" <r...@stockdillfhs.org.uk> wrote in message
news:200212261441...@mail.freeola.enta.net...
| Doug McDonald <mcdo...@scs.uiuc.edu> wrote.....
| WHAT is this sudden fascination with descent from Lady Godiva? Since she
died circa 1080, anyone claiming descent from
| her today would be a great many generations distant and thus descended from
many thousands of other people, too,
| including undoubtedly a great many ordinary people who never troubled the
pages of history but who were equally
| influential in bestowing genes, physical and personality characteristics,
etc.
|
| This kind of snobbery about trying to prove descent from someone famous
long, long ago is one of the reasons I have
| never been remotely interested in partaking in the discussions in
soc.gen.medieval (besides of course the likelihood of
| encountering a certain person there!).
|
| If we are interested in "trivial pursuit" genealogy, then the descendants of
Edward I included Virginia Woolf, George
| Orwell, Sir Billy Butlin, Neville Chamberlain, Somerset Maugham, E M
Forster, Fletcher Christian, Lawrence of Arabia,
| Vaughan Williams and George Washington. Franklin D Rooosevelt descended from
Henry II, a descent shared with Hermann
| Goering and General de Gaulle, Sir Winston Churchill from Henry VII and
Jenny the wife of Karl Marx from David I of
| Scotland. And Anthony Camp in "Everyone Has Roots" mentions a gentleman that
nobody here will have ever heard of
| (because I hadn't) called Raymond Berthon of Selsey, Sussex, who apparently
descended in more than SEVEN HUNDRED
| different ways from Henry II.
|
| My attitude is, so what? Everybody has to be descended from somebody and it
seems to me that too much of English
| genealogy is bedevilled with trying to prove descent from royalty,
aristocracy or the famous! Let's get on with
| celebrating those more immediate ancestors which we can identify for certain
(well, within the limits of "certainty"
| such as it can ever exist in genealogy) and finding out as much as we can
about them, rather than discovering a
| "gateway" link to some remote squire who was the umpteenth gt-grandson of
Charlemagne, Alfred the Great or whoever.
|
| Roy Stockdill (Editor, Journal of One-Name Studies)
| Guild of One-Name Studies:- www.one-name.org
| Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History:-
www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html
|
| Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does he will tell you, if
he does not why humiliate him? - Canon Sydney Smith
|
D. Spencer Hines
"...most unwelcome here, as is anyone from that slightly ridiculous group,
soc.gen.medieval, which appears to me to consist primarily of colonials living
in another world (or another country) who feel it necessary somehow to show
that they are descended from everybody famous and important who ever lived
because they can't actually find any more recent ancestors of significance."
Vide infra.
-------------------------
What an absolutely *absurd* man.
How Sweet It Is!
Deus Vult.
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains --- after the
Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied man in his
victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
""Roy Stockdill"" <r...@stockdillfhs.org.uk> wrote in message
news:200212262231...@mail.freeola.enta.net...
| Doug McDonald <mcdo...@scs.uiuc.edu> wrote.....
|
| > > This kind of snobbery about trying to prove descent from someone famous
long, long ago is one of the reasons I have
| > > never been remotely interested in partaking in the discussions in
soc.gen.medieval (besides of course the likelihood of
| > > encountering a certain person there!).
| > >
| >
| > Another reason is probably that you can't prove such ancestors
| > for yourself and are very seriously envious of those who can. >>
|
| YOU really are utterly absurd and, moreover, you consistently miss the
point. I am
| neither envious nor do I give the proverbial monkeys (and if you don't
understand what
| that means, then I suggest you look it up) about people who can apparently
prove their
| descent from Lady Godiva, Alfred the Great, William the Conqueror, Cyril The
Incontinent
| of Lindisfarne or Gordon the Flatulent of Chipping Sodbury (and his dog).
|
| English genealogy is not about "Yah boo, sucks, I can prove my ancestry
farther back
| than you can." This is why your recently dear departed friend, the late D
Spencer
| H - - - s was most unwelcome here, as is anyone from that slightly
ridiculous group,
| soc.gen.medieval, which appears to me to consist primarily of colonials
living in another
| world (or another country) who feel it necessary somehow to show that they
are descended
| from everybody famous and important who ever lived because they can't
actually find any
| more recent ancestors of significance.
|
| If you really want to know something, I may ( I say just "may") possibly be
an umpteenth
| cousin of Sir Ernest Shackleton, the great explorer, because I descend from
the
| Shackletons of Keighley, Yorkshire, from whom he was also derived. My
connection, if I
| ever prove it, is very remote but at least it is relatively recent and I
would rather be
| ever-so-distantly connected to him - i.e. someone who actually did something
worthwhile
| in relatively recent times - than any of your remote and distant historical
ancestors who
| are famous only for being names in history books and who, in any case, would
have been
| the progenitor of probably several million people today. Perhaps you have
failed to
| understand this, but you and your kin are hardly an exclusive band.
Mathematically, there
| are many millions who share your ancestry. Your snobbery is based on the
fact that you
| claim you can prove it (evidence of which we have not yet seen, BTW).
|
| Having said all that, I would prefer to descend from humble ag labs who
worked the land
| for several centuries, earned their corn, brought up their families in the
face of
| overwhelming odds and the oppression of YOUR ancestors (!), fought for their
country when
| they were needed, refused to kow-tow and tug their forelocks to the squire
and
| somehow survived to leave descendants today - all of which earns my undying
admiration
| and gratitude, which is something which you with your penchant for finding
medieval
| ancestors of supreme importance probably wouldn't begin to understand.
D. Spencer Hines
They strike out.
They can't even find *many* of the more recent ancestors.
Many of their known ancestries seem to peter out in the English Civil War or,
at best, in the Tudor period, when they can't turn to the Parish Registers any
more.
It's all quite pitiful ---- particularly since these pontificating
genealogical professionals, several of whom can be found in SBM, simply take
the poor rubes back to those relatively recent periods and then dump them,
saying ---- "Sorry, this is as far as we can go."
Entertaining to watch however....
Their searches often end in a great gaggling cloud of aglabs ---- and then
silence....
Amusing...
So then, as requisite psychological rationalisation, they tell themselves that
what they can't have must not be worth much anyway ---- just sour grapes.
Fox And The Grapes Writ Large....
Deus Vult.
"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains --- after the
Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied man in his
victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Doug McDonald" <mcdo...@scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:3E0C737A...@scs.uiuc.edu...
| Eve McLaughlin wrote:
| >
| >
| > >about people who can apparently
| > >prove their
| > >> descent from Lady Godiva, Alfred the Great, William the Conqueror,
| > >
| > >Then STOP BOTHERING THOSE OF US WHO ARE.
| > Roy is not bothering me, for one. Descent from various royals is nothing
| > unusual or very special. (And most of us don'tgo on about it as if it
| > was really interesting, because we have nothing of interest in our own
| > lives or more recent ancestors).
| > Coming from refugees for SGMed, it just sounds pathetic and even -
| > because of the constant repetition without proof - ever so slightly
| > fake.
| >
| > >glish genealogy is not about "Yah boo, sucks, I can prove my ancestry
| > >farther back
| > >> than you can."
| > >
| > >IT MOST CERTAINLY IS. At least in part.
| > Only if you are a rather weak indivdual who needs a prop of some kind
| > from the past. Manifestly, those who rant on about such a limited pool
| > of ancestors are immature in some way.
| >
| >
| > --
| > Eve McLaughlin
| >
| > Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians
| > Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society
|
|
| It must me an occupational disease. I note that you too, like
| Mr. Stockdill, are an "establishment" person, having published
| a book on genealogy. By "it" I mean the incessant attacks
| on those of us who are trying to find ALL of our ancestors,
| and not just some limited recent subset.
|
|
| Doug McDonald
sarah....@talktalk.net
JohnnoH
This is the Queen Mother's wikipedia entry ,start there and read all of that
for possible clues.
Johnno
wrote in message
news:b74728f3-8382-4a91...@googlegroups.com...
JohnnoH
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowes-Lyon <
"JohnnoH" wrote in message news:qioo4r$1e9e$1...@gioia.aioe.org...
JohnnoH
If as you seem to be suggesting,you are related to the Queen Mother's family
then this give a good going over of her ancestors, look at them by clicking
on the link below
> https://gw.geneanet.org/tdowling?lang=en&p=william&n=bowes <
Johnno
"JohnnoH" wrote in message news:qioocf$1fbp$1...@gioia.aioe.org...
savanic...@gmail.com
> BOWES-LYON family tree posted
>
> I have just spent the past three days working on the family tree of
> Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the Queen Mother, who died in March at age 101.
>
> I started on this project because I remembered that she had two
> nieces, cousins of Queen Elizabeth II, who had been locked up in
> mental hospitals for more than 50 years.
>
> I want to thank the many people who helped me in this search.
>
> dealing with the Royal Family tree, almost none of them make any
> mention of this branch of the British Royal Family. It seems that they
> are almost persona non grata.
>
> From most websites, one would imagine that the Queen Mother was an
> only child. In reality, she had six brothers and three sisters.
>
> Two of her nieces, both sons of her brother John Herbert BOWES-LYON
> (1886-1930), have been confined in mental hospitals almost since their
> birth. The youngest, Katherine BOWES-LYON, who was born 4 July 1926,
> is apparently still alive or at least her death had not been
> announced.
>
> In addition, Queen Elizabeth had an uncle, John Charles Francis
> WINDSOR (1905-1919) who was an epileptic who had to be restrained
> until he died.
>
> The BOWES-LYON family tried to marry well. I was surprised to discover
> that one of them had married the great-granddaughter of John Jacob
> Astor, one of the richest men in America. Imagine the chagrin of the
> Astor Family when they realized that their daughter had married into
> the wrong branch of the British Royal Family. Rachel Pauline
> SPENDER-CLAY, who was the granddaughter of William Waldorf Astor,
> after whom the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York City is named,
> married David BOWES-LYON, the uncle of Queen Elizabeth II of England.
>
> Helen Schermerhorn ASTOR married James Roosevelt, the half-brother of
> President Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
>
> I have posted all these family links on my website as follows:
>
> Elizabeth, the Queen Mother
> http://www.shamema.com/pafg358.htm#13383
> Nerissa Bowes-Lyon
> http://www.shamema.com/pafg429.htm#17700
> Katherine Bowes-Lyon
> http://www.shamema.com/pafg429.htm#17700
> John Charles Francis WINDSOR
> http://www.shamema.com/pafg349.htm#12259C
> John Jacob Astor
> http://www.shamema.com/pafg431.htm#17780
> Rachel Pauline SPENDER-CLAY
> http://www.shamema.com/pafg430.htm#17710
> James Roosevelt
> http://www.shamema.com/pafg432.htm#17795
> President Franklin Delano Roosevelt
> http://www.shamema.com/pafg434.htm#17836
>
> Sam Sloan
>
> PS. I have no relationship with any of these people, except that I
> live near Astoria, Queens, which was named after John Jacob Astor.
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.asian.american/GbbWUdxJ0a4
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.asian.american/b8xCbBbeaTY
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.asian.american/GRRNLaOYIho
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.asian.american/1SEvMDhfQyM
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.asian.american/gQm_1d-427k
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.asian.american/IWNEEw7xdG8
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.asian.american/Q8JRNIJqgps
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.genealogy.german/QB1sDRhGVZc
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.genealogy.german/JoTfRyE681k
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.australian/8sPSRohHG4U
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.australian/wwCkMMgsF8Q
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https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.australian/ir1FAqsXOyk
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.genealogy.german/Y-MXl5CEV00
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.genealogy.german/-8FJ8Y2MGp0
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.history.ancient/4EEAKedDwYQ
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.belgium/X05vmRHQNJM
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.history.war.us-revolution/DNfrrbCzxOY
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.history.war.us-revolution/bZ-WdTgMS0s
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.history.war.us-revolution/ZCPZwmfNWVA
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.history.war.us-revolution/2QICGFwJ3Ig
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.comp.freeware/CbMgunJEJVk
