wife of Odoacre/Odoacer, Count of Flanders
Jane P Justice
Odoacre/Odoacer III, Count of Flanders is listed as wife unknown in my
files. I was wondering if anyone knew who his wife was.
Odoacer
b. abt. 815
d. 864
was also Count of Harlebec
his son was Baldwin, I Count of Flanders, who married Judith of France,
daughter of Charles the Bald of France and Ermentrude of ?, daughter of
Odo.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Robin
Richard Borthwick
What was your source for this filiation for Baldwin I? I was under the
impression that Baldwin's origins were unknown.
Chaume (in his *Les origines du Duche de Bourgogne* I) for a much earlier
period (C7-8th) tentatively suggests that two persons with the name
'Baldwin' or its variants were connected to a clan with the leading name
'Autchar' (variants: Odocar, Otger, Ottaker, Authari ..etc.). Neither of
these, from what I can recall, was Baldwin I of Flanders.
What would be a little odd about the filiation you report is that there
seems to be no transmission of the 'Odocar' name or its variants or elements
to the descendants of Baldwin I. After Baldwin I they used some Carolingian
and Anglo-Saxon names, but 'Baldwin' remained the leading name for this family.
Richard
>
Todd A. Farmerie
This is one of those traditional assignments that often get propagated
without question. I think I first saw in in the Larosse Encyclopedia.
Odoacer is then made son of a forester Liderique. Probably groundless.
taf
Richard Borthwick
At 01:33 AM 2/06/98 GMT, you wrote:
>rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au (Richard Borthwick) wrote:
>
>>Chaume (in his *Les origines du Duche de Bourgogne* I) for a much earlier
>>period (C7-8th) tentatively suggests that two persons with the name
>>'Baldwin' or its variants were connected to a clan with the leading name
>>'Autchar' (variants: Odocar, Otger, Ottaker, Authari ..etc.). Neither of
>>these, from what I can recall, was Baldwin I of Flanders.
>
>
>Could you provide more details? Baldwin I of Flanders is the earliest
>bearer of that name of whom I am aware, and if there were earlier
>individuals who bore that name, I would certainly be interested in
>knowing who they were (for a reason that you can probably guess).
>
>Stewart Baldwin
>
Chaume *Bourgogne* I:22 n.3., 118 n.1.
In the first case a Balduinus (Bodilo) was a son of St Sadlaberga (mid to
latter C7th). See also pp.528-31 where Sadlaberga is shown as a member of
the Autcharing goup. The discussion in which this reference comes up is on
the family of St Ledger (Leudegarius) d.677.
The second reference is a bit more nebulous. The relevant part of the note
draws attention to the rarity of the name 'Rocco'/'Rocho' and its two
connections (a hundred year apart) with the name 'Autchar'. A legend of
revenge blood-letting has a little Balduin son of Autchar being done to
death (whether by Rocho or someone else I can't recall).
I don't think there is very much in all this vis a vis connecting
'Balduinus' to the Burgundian Autcharing group (Chaume p.528). Chaume
doesn't seem to press the matter. However any connection to the Burgundian
Agilolfinger would be interesting (Werner has a discussion on this group in
Reuter (ed) *The Medieval Nobility* pp.164 ff). Maybe Settipani will have
something to say on all this in the second part of *La prehistoire..* when
he deals in more detail with the Merovingian and Carolingian nobility.
In addition to taf's info. & comment in an earlier response to mine I notice
that Turton p.19 (relying on Latrie) makes Baldwin I a son of a count
Odoacre (of Harlebec) son of a count Engelram (of the same) son of a count
Lyderic (of the same). I am quite unfamiliar with an arguments supporting
this filiation chain or the accompanying comital attributions.
This has been written in some haste. I hope it is not too scrappy!
>
>
>
>
Nathaniel Taylor
>Odoacre/Odoacer III, Count of Flanders is listed as wife unknown in my
>files. I was wondering if anyone knew who his wife was.
>
>Odoacer
>b. abt. 815
>d. 864
>was also Count of Harlebec
>
>his son was Baldwin, I Count of Flanders...
The identity of Baldwin's father as one "Odoacer" is supported only by two
notices in a minor set of Flemish annals (the _Annales Blandinienses_, MGH
SS 5:20-34) of eleventh-century confection; nothing further is known of
this person (nor of his wife). His attribution as a count of Herlebec
comes only from the twelfth-century genealogical MS of St.-Bertin (MGH SS
9:305), which also adds *his* father Ingelrannus and grandfather Lidric,
"count of Herlebec" (also attested only in the _Annales Blandinienses_).
These individuals are only attested in these relatively late sources--the
eleventh-century annals and the twelfth-century genealogy. In neither,
however, does the death date you assign for Odoacer appear.
Most modern genealogists agree that, without any corroboration, these two
eleventh- and twelfth-century notices of them cannot be taken as proof of
their existence or their relation to count Balduin. Cf. ES 2:5, etc.,
where the line starts with Baldwin.
Nat Taylor
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au (Richard Borthwick) wrote:
>In the first case a Balduinus (Bodilo) was a son of St Sadlaberga (mid to
>latter C7th). See also pp.528-31 where Sadlaberga is shown as a member of
>the Autcharing goup. The discussion in which this reference comes up is on
>the family of St Ledger (Leudegarius) d.677.
I don't see the reason for regarding Balduinus and Bodilo as the same
name. Does Chaume justify this, or indicate which spelling(s) of the
name appear in the original manuscripts?
Stewart Baldwin