Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Elizabeth Howard, 1st wife of Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet
78 views
Skip to first unread message
Brad Verity
Feb 25, 2012, 10:13:07 PM2/25/12
to
While entering the Gowers of Stittenham into my database, I stumbled
across a discrepancy that took me quite awhile to work out. This is
not the medieval period, but it deals with nobility & families that
can be traced back to the period, so I figured I'd post.
The peerage works, including Collins Peerage (1812), Burke's Peerage
106th Edn. (1999), county histories such as Nicholson & Burns's
'History & Antiquities of Westmorland & Cumberland' (1777), the
biographies of Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet in ODNB and HOP, and even
'Selections From the Household Books of Lord William Howard of Naworth
Castle' (Surtees Soc., 1878), p. 295, all agree: Elizabeth Howard, the
first wife of Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet of Stittenham, was the
daughter of Sir William Howard of Naworth Castle (d. 1644) & his wife
Hon. Mary Eure (d. 1638), and the sister of Charles Howard, 1st Earl
of Carlisle. But a look at the dates for the individuals in question
show it to be impossible.
Sir William Howard of Naworth Castle was born 1603, his wife Mary Eure
was born in September 1602, and they were married in 1621. Their 2nd
son, Charles Howard, the future Earl of Carlisle, was born 4 February
1628. The household accounts of Lord William Howard of Naworth in
1633 have an entry for a black hood purchased for Elizabeth, the
daughter of his grandson and heir Sir William Howard. So there
certainly was an Elizabeth Howard who was a daughter of Sir William
Howard & Mary Eure, likely born at some point in the mid-1620s. There
were also purchases made that same year (1633) for her sister Mary
Howard (later wife of Sir Jonathan Atkins).
Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet, was born 1604/5 (per his bio in ODNB)
and "about 1605" (per his bio in HOP). The settlement for his
marriage to Frances Leveson, his second wife, was dated 29 September
1631 (per his bio in HOP), so it is impossible for him to have
previously married Elizabeth Howard, the daughter of Sir William
Howard and Mary Eure, who was still an unmarried child in her
grandparents' household in 1633.
I haven't tracked down any primary evidence for Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd
Baronet, having a wife Elizabeth. Frances Leveson died in 1661. I
suppose it's possible he could have married Elizabeth Howard (a
generation younger than him) as his second wife, in the 1660s (he died
in 1672), but it would be unusual for all the peerage works to have
reversed the order of his marriages.
If, however, Sir Thomas Gower did have a wife Elizabeth, from the
Howard family of Naworth Castle, previous to his 1631 marriage to
Frances Leveson, she would be Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Philip Howard
and Mary/Margaret Caryll, and sister of the Sir William Howard born in
1603. Entries from the household books of Lord William Howard of
Naworth Castle in 1621 document purchases made for Alethea and
Elizabeth, daughters of his deceased son and heir Sir Philip Howard
(who had died in 1616). Now all of the peerage works & county
histories, etc., mentioned above, state that this Elizabeth Howard,
daughter of Sir Philip, was married to Bartholomew Fromond of Cheath
in Surrey. This, however, is another error. The VCH Surrey article
on Cheath shows that Elizabeth, widow of Bartholomew Fromond of Cheath
(who died in 1652), married "William Howard of East Cheath" as a
second husband. Also, the Fromond pedigree in the Visitation of
Surrey (the 1530/1572/1623 combined volume, pp. 30-31) shows the wife
of the same Bartholomew Fromond to have been "Susan, d. of James
Thatcher of Preshaws in com. Sussex", while the pedigree of Fromond in
Manning & Bray's 'History of Surrey' Vol. 2, p. 483 (which I can only
see a snippet of thru Google Books) shows his wife "Elizabeth Myn"
with second husband William Howard. So it certainly seems that
Bartholomew Fromond did not marry Elizabeth, the daughter of Sir
Philip Howard, heir of Naworth Castle, & Margaret/Mary Caryll. This
leaves her available & the perfect age to have been the first wife of
Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet, and dead without issue by 1631.
The wife of Sir Philip Howard, heir of Naworth, is said in the peerage
works to have been Margaret, daughter of Sir John Caryll of Hartling
in Sussex. This is also an error. She was instead his sister. They
were children of Sir John Caryll of Warnham, Sussex (29 March 1557 - 5
July 1613) & his wife Mary (d. June 1601), daughter of George Cotton
of Warblington. She is called 'Margaret' in the peerage works &
county histories but the household accounts of Lord William Howard of
Naworth indicate her first name to have been 'Mary'.
As to what actually became of Elizabeth Howard, daughter of Sir
William Howard of Naworth Castle & Mary Eure, who has for so long been
misidentified as wife of Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet, I haven't yet
discovered. But the whole exercise shows how even such established
noble families as the Leveson-Gower Dukes of Sutherland and the Howard
Earls of Carlisle need to have their pedigrees researched thoroughly
far subsequent to the medieval era.
Cheers, --------Brad
across a discrepancy that took me quite awhile to work out. This is
not the medieval period, but it deals with nobility & families that
can be traced back to the period, so I figured I'd post.
The peerage works, including Collins Peerage (1812), Burke's Peerage
106th Edn. (1999), county histories such as Nicholson & Burns's
'History & Antiquities of Westmorland & Cumberland' (1777), the
biographies of Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet in ODNB and HOP, and even
'Selections From the Household Books of Lord William Howard of Naworth
Castle' (Surtees Soc., 1878), p. 295, all agree: Elizabeth Howard, the
first wife of Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet of Stittenham, was the
daughter of Sir William Howard of Naworth Castle (d. 1644) & his wife
Hon. Mary Eure (d. 1638), and the sister of Charles Howard, 1st Earl
of Carlisle. But a look at the dates for the individuals in question
show it to be impossible.
Sir William Howard of Naworth Castle was born 1603, his wife Mary Eure
was born in September 1602, and they were married in 1621. Their 2nd
son, Charles Howard, the future Earl of Carlisle, was born 4 February
1628. The household accounts of Lord William Howard of Naworth in
1633 have an entry for a black hood purchased for Elizabeth, the
daughter of his grandson and heir Sir William Howard. So there
certainly was an Elizabeth Howard who was a daughter of Sir William
Howard & Mary Eure, likely born at some point in the mid-1620s. There
were also purchases made that same year (1633) for her sister Mary
Howard (later wife of Sir Jonathan Atkins).
Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet, was born 1604/5 (per his bio in ODNB)
and "about 1605" (per his bio in HOP). The settlement for his
marriage to Frances Leveson, his second wife, was dated 29 September
1631 (per his bio in HOP), so it is impossible for him to have
previously married Elizabeth Howard, the daughter of Sir William
Howard and Mary Eure, who was still an unmarried child in her
grandparents' household in 1633.
I haven't tracked down any primary evidence for Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd
Baronet, having a wife Elizabeth. Frances Leveson died in 1661. I
suppose it's possible he could have married Elizabeth Howard (a
generation younger than him) as his second wife, in the 1660s (he died
in 1672), but it would be unusual for all the peerage works to have
reversed the order of his marriages.
If, however, Sir Thomas Gower did have a wife Elizabeth, from the
Howard family of Naworth Castle, previous to his 1631 marriage to
Frances Leveson, she would be Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Philip Howard
and Mary/Margaret Caryll, and sister of the Sir William Howard born in
1603. Entries from the household books of Lord William Howard of
Naworth Castle in 1621 document purchases made for Alethea and
Elizabeth, daughters of his deceased son and heir Sir Philip Howard
(who had died in 1616). Now all of the peerage works & county
histories, etc., mentioned above, state that this Elizabeth Howard,
daughter of Sir Philip, was married to Bartholomew Fromond of Cheath
in Surrey. This, however, is another error. The VCH Surrey article
on Cheath shows that Elizabeth, widow of Bartholomew Fromond of Cheath
(who died in 1652), married "William Howard of East Cheath" as a
second husband. Also, the Fromond pedigree in the Visitation of
Surrey (the 1530/1572/1623 combined volume, pp. 30-31) shows the wife
of the same Bartholomew Fromond to have been "Susan, d. of James
Thatcher of Preshaws in com. Sussex", while the pedigree of Fromond in
Manning & Bray's 'History of Surrey' Vol. 2, p. 483 (which I can only
see a snippet of thru Google Books) shows his wife "Elizabeth Myn"
with second husband William Howard. So it certainly seems that
Bartholomew Fromond did not marry Elizabeth, the daughter of Sir
Philip Howard, heir of Naworth Castle, & Margaret/Mary Caryll. This
leaves her available & the perfect age to have been the first wife of
Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet, and dead without issue by 1631.
The wife of Sir Philip Howard, heir of Naworth, is said in the peerage
works to have been Margaret, daughter of Sir John Caryll of Hartling
in Sussex. This is also an error. She was instead his sister. They
were children of Sir John Caryll of Warnham, Sussex (29 March 1557 - 5
July 1613) & his wife Mary (d. June 1601), daughter of George Cotton
of Warblington. She is called 'Margaret' in the peerage works &
county histories but the household accounts of Lord William Howard of
Naworth indicate her first name to have been 'Mary'.
As to what actually became of Elizabeth Howard, daughter of Sir
William Howard of Naworth Castle & Mary Eure, who has for so long been
misidentified as wife of Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet, I haven't yet
discovered. But the whole exercise shows how even such established
noble families as the Leveson-Gower Dukes of Sutherland and the Howard
Earls of Carlisle need to have their pedigrees researched thoroughly
far subsequent to the medieval era.
Cheers, --------Brad
Wjhonson
Feb 26, 2012, 7:11:22 PM2/26/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I see this name as Cheam or Cheyham
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
Wjhonson
Feb 26, 2012, 7:32:15 PM2/26/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Transcript (pp 1-10 only) of the escheator's inquisition on the death [31 Jan 1613] of James Thetcher of Priesthawes [in Westham] esq, 27 Jul 1613 AMS6270/66 nd, c1700
These documents are held at East Sussex Record Office
Contents:
The jurors (named) present that JT died seised of
1 The manors of Mersham, Foder Mersham, Foder Marsh and Pett
2 The advowson of Pett
3 Capital messuage and land called Priesthawes in Westham
4 Lands (200a in Westham occupied by various tenants
5 Land (120a) called Thorne otherwise Dorne in Westham, formerly part of the manor of Otham
6 Land (1000a) in Fairlight, Pett, Icklesham and Guestling
Recites settlement on the marriage of JT's son William with Ann, daughter of Thomas Tresham kt deceased (Edward [Stourton] lord Stourton, William Parker kt lord Mounteagle, Lewis Tresham of Rushton Northants bt and Thomas Brudnell of Deane, Northants, bt trustees), 24 Jan 1612, by which a portion of £2600 was paid by AT's mother Meriell Tresham as her husband's administratrix, and the property above was conveyed by fine and recovery (using William Andrew of the Middle Temple gent and Henry Blackshaw of London, gent, and William Tresham the younger of the Inner Temple esq and George Vavisour of the Inner Temple gent) to the use of JT for life, remainder to WT in tail male, remainder to his sisters Katherine Thetcher, Margaret wife of Maurice Kyffine esq, Elizabeth Rootes widow, Philippa wife of Thomas Pudsey esq, Ann wife of James Rootes esq, Susannah wife of Bartholomew Fromonds esq, Dorothy Thetcher and Mary wife of William Iston esq, and to WT's daughters, remainder to the heirs of JT's sisters Philippa Culpeper and Elizabeth Morgan deceased and to the heirs of JT's brother John Thetcher's daughters Ann Staple and Margery Isham
These documents are held at East Sussex Record Office
Contents:
The jurors (named) present that JT died seised of
1 The manors of Mersham, Foder Mersham, Foder Marsh and Pett
2 The advowson of Pett
3 Capital messuage and land called Priesthawes in Westham
4 Lands (200a in Westham occupied by various tenants
5 Land (120a) called Thorne otherwise Dorne in Westham, formerly part of the manor of Otham
6 Land (1000a) in Fairlight, Pett, Icklesham and Guestling
Recites settlement on the marriage of JT's son William with Ann, daughter of Thomas Tresham kt deceased (Edward [Stourton] lord Stourton, William Parker kt lord Mounteagle, Lewis Tresham of Rushton Northants bt and Thomas Brudnell of Deane, Northants, bt trustees), 24 Jan 1612, by which a portion of £2600 was paid by AT's mother Meriell Tresham as her husband's administratrix, and the property above was conveyed by fine and recovery (using William Andrew of the Middle Temple gent and Henry Blackshaw of London, gent, and William Tresham the younger of the Inner Temple esq and George Vavisour of the Inner Temple gent) to the use of JT for life, remainder to WT in tail male, remainder to his sisters Katherine Thetcher, Margaret wife of Maurice Kyffine esq, Elizabeth Rootes widow, Philippa wife of Thomas Pudsey esq, Ann wife of James Rootes esq, Susannah wife of Bartholomew Fromonds esq, Dorothy Thetcher and Mary wife of William Iston esq, and to WT's daughters, remainder to the heirs of JT's sisters Philippa Culpeper and Elizabeth Morgan deceased and to the heirs of JT's brother John Thetcher's daughters Ann Staple and Margery Isham
Brad Verity
Feb 27, 2012, 4:08:52 PM2/27/12
to
Yes, correct. I was saying 'Cheath' by mistake.
> Transcript (pp 1-10 only) of the escheator's inquisition on the death [31 Jan 1613] of James Thetcher of Priesthawes [in Westham] esq, 27 Jul 1613 AMS6270/66 nd, c1700
Thanks, Will. This document verifies Bartholomew Fromond's marriage
to Susan Thetcher as given in the Visitation pedigree. Per the
account of Cheam in the VCH Surrey series, it seems he married a
second time, to an Elizabeth, who survived him and re-married William
Howard, unless the Elizabeth Fromond Howard in question was the widow
of his grandfather Bartholomew Fromond.
Cheers, ------Brad
> Transcript (pp 1-10 only) of the escheator's inquisition on the death [31 Jan 1613] of James Thetcher of Priesthawes [in Westham] esq, 27 Jul 1613 AMS6270/66 nd, c1700
to Susan Thetcher as given in the Visitation pedigree. Per the
account of Cheam in the VCH Surrey series, it seems he married a
second time, to an Elizabeth, who survived him and re-married William
Howard, unless the Elizabeth Fromond Howard in question was the widow
of his grandfather Bartholomew Fromond.
Cheers, ------Brad
Wjhonson
Feb 27, 2012, 4:31:22 PM2/27/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Yes I can verify that either, this same Bartholomew had a later wife Elizabeth with whom he appears *by* 1638
OR maybe he had a son of this name, but I think rather the former.
I have the notes in my laptop at home, but you can also look in A2A if you can't wait.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 27, 2012 1:19 pm
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Howard, 1st wife of Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet
On Feb 26, 4:32 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> I see this name as Cheam or Cheyham
Yes, correct. I was saying 'Cheath' by mistake.
> Transcript (pp 1-10 only) of the escheator's inquisition on the death [31 Jan
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Howard, 1st wife of Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet
On Feb 26, 4:32 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> I see this name as Cheam or Cheyham
Yes, correct. I was saying 'Cheath' by mistake.
> Transcript (pp 1-10 only) of the escheator's inquisition on the death [31 Jan
613] of James Thetcher of Priesthawes [in Westham] esq, 27 Jul 1613 AMS6270/66
nd, c1700
Thanks, Will. This document verifies Bartholomew Fromond's marriage
nd, c1700
Thanks, Will. This document verifies Bartholomew Fromond's marriage
o Susan Thetcher as given in the Visitation pedigree. Per the
ccount of Cheam in the VCH Surrey series, it seems he married a
econd time, to an Elizabeth, who survived him and re-married William
oward, unless the Elizabeth Fromond Howard in question was the widow
f his grandfather Bartholomew Fromond.
Cheers, ------Brad
------------------------------
Cheers, ------Brad
o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
he message
Wjhonson
Feb 27, 2012, 4:40:50 PM2/27/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
By the way, he was an adult by 10J1 I think that's the first time I found him acting in a deed.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 27, 2012 1:34 pm
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Howard, 1st wife of Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet
es I can verify that either, this same Bartholomew had a later wife Elizabeth
ith whom he appears *by* 1638
R maybe he had a son of this name, but I think rather the former.
I have the notes in my laptop at home, but you can also look in A2A if you can't
ait.
I have the notes in my laptop at home, but you can also look in A2A if you can't
-----Original Message-----
rom: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
o: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
ent: Mon, Feb 27, 2012 1:19 pm
ubject: Re: Elizabeth Howard, 1st wife of Sir Thomas Gower, 2nd Baronet
n Feb 26, 4:32 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
I see this name as Cheam or Cheyham
n Feb 26, 4:32 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
I see this name as Cheam or Cheyham
es, correct. I was saying 'Cheath' by mistake.
Transcript (pp 1-10 only) of the escheator's inquisition on the death [31 Jan
Transcript (pp 1-10 only) of the escheator's inquisition on the death [31 Jan
13] of James Thetcher of Priesthawes [in Westham] esq, 27 Jul 1613 AMS6270/66
d, c1700
hanks, Will. This document verifies Bartholomew Fromond's marriage
Susan Thetcher as given in the Visitation pedigree. Per the
count of Cheam in the VCH Surrey series, it seems he married a
cond time, to an Elizabeth, who survived him and re-married William
ward, unless the Elizabeth Fromond Howard in question was the widow
his grandfather Bartholomew Fromond.
heers, ------Brad
------------------------------
unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
e message
ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
0 new messages