Joan, illigit dau of King John
Jim Stevens
the dau. of King John and an unknown mistress. I found an entry in the
LDS/AF (yeah, I know !!!) that identifies that mistress as AGATHA, dau of
William de ferriers, Earl of Derby and Sibyl de Braose. Does anyone out
there know of any substantiation for that theory ?
Today is the first day of the rest of your life ! (jste...@iquest.net) Jim
Martha Wallenhorst
fawr was the daughter of
Christiana D’Arcy. After having found his daughter pregnant by someone
he loathed D’Arcy rented a
cottage on William de Farriers’ land for her up keep. Chrisitana died
when Joanna was 5. The D’Arcy
didn’t want the “spawn of the devil” (D’Arcy family diary 1250ad), so de
Farriers sent the child to John in
France. At the age of 15 she was married to Llywellen ap Iorweth. The
de Broase family was very well
know to Joanna as both of her children married de Broase’ and her brother
Richard fitz Roy was the son of a
deBroase.
Any other questions just e-mail me, I don’t get to this site often.
Martha Wallenhorst
Manassas VA
Martha Wallenhorst
Manassas, VA
William A. Reitwiesner
I thought I'd seen all the stories about the mother of Joan, but this is a
new one on me. Do you have a more precise citation for this than "D'Arcy
family diary 1250ad"?
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@loc.gov
Jim Stevens
>RFB...@prodigy.com (Martha Wallenhorst) posted to soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
>>Joanna Fitz Roy, daughter of King John of England and wife of Llywellen
>>fawr was the daughter of Christiana D'Arcy. After having found his
>>daughter pregnant by someone he loathed D'Arcy rented a cottage on
>>William de Farriers' land for her up keep. Chrisitana died when Joanna
>I thought I'd seen all the stories about the mother of Joan, but this is a
>new one on me. Do you have a more precise citation for this than "D'Arcy
>family diary 1250ad"?
OHHHHHH ! Looks like I stumbled into a messier can of worms that I first
imagined ! For the bebefit of those of us who have never had the
oppertunity to examine Joan's pedigree up close and personal, could someone
please very briefly list the currently credible theories ?
john cambey dyck
On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, William A. Reitwiesner wrote:
> RFB...@prodigy.com (Martha Wallenhorst) posted to soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
> >Joanna Fitz Roy, daughter of King John of England and wife of Llywellen
> >fawr was the daughter of Christiana D'Arcy. After having found his
> >daughter pregnant by someone he loathed D'Arcy rented a cottage on
> >William de Farriers' land for her up keep. Chrisitana died when Joanna
> >was 5. The D'Arcy didn't want the "spawn of the devil" (D'Arcy family
> >diary 1250ad), so de Farriers sent the child to John in France. At the
> >age of 15 she was married to Llywellen ap Iorweth. The de Broase family
> >was very well know to Joanna as both of her children married de Broase
> >and her brother Richard fitz Roy was the son of a deBroase.
> >
> >Any other questions just e-mail me, I don't get to this site often.
>
> I thought I'd seen all the stories about the mother of Joan, but this is a
> new one on me. Do you have a more precise citation for this than "D'Arcy
> family diary 1250ad"?
>
>
> William Addams Reitwiesner
> wr...@loc.gov
>
I too would like to know what the historical source for this is. The
only place that I have seen reference to d'Arcy was in a workof
historical fiction by Sharon Penman.
Cam
William A. Reitwiesner
>>William Addams Reitwiesner wr...@loc.gov wrote (in part) :
>
>>RFB...@prodigy.com (Martha Wallenhorst) posted to soc.genealogy.medieval:
>>
>>>Joanna Fitz Roy, daughter of King John of England and wife of Llywellen
>>>fawr was the daughter of Christiana D'Arcy. After having found his
>>>daughter pregnant by someone he loathed D'Arcy rented a cottage on
>>>William de Farriers' land for her up keep. Chrisitana died when Joanna
>
>>I thought I'd seen all the stories about the mother of Joan, but this is a
>>new one on me. Do you have a more precise citation for this than "D'Arcy
>>family diary 1250ad"?
>
>OHHHHHH ! Looks like I stumbled into a messier can of worms that I first
>imagined ! For the bebefit of those of us who have never had the
>oppertunity to examine Joan's pedigree up close and personal, could someone
>please very briefly list the currently credible theories ?
The Tewkesbury Annals, when they report Joan's death, report it as follows:
Obiit domina Johanna domina Walliae, uxor Lewelini, filia regis
Johannis et reginae Clemenciae, iii kal. Aprilis.
See *Rerum Britannicarum medii aevi scriptores*, volume 36 [London, 1864],
p. 101. So for most people the question is "who was this Queen
Clemencia"? Some have guessed that Joan was a child of John by his first
wife Isabel of Gloucester, others that Clemencia was John's sister-in-law
Constance of Brittany. Others say that Clemencia, no "Queen", was
lowborn. Still others say that the Annals were completely wrong and that
Joan was John's daughter by Agatha de Ferrieres, daughter of the 3rd Earl
of Derby by Sibyl de Braiose. Those are the major theories, but no
consensus has been reached.
By the way, Joan was legitimated by rescript of Pope Honorius III dated
29 April 1226. See *Regesta Honorii Papae III*, volume III, part 2 [Roma,
1895], pp. 417-418, #5906.
For further details, see my article "The children of Joan, Princess of
North Wales" in *The Genealogist* (Association for the Promotion of
Scholarship in Genealogy), volume 1, number 1 [Spring 1980], pp. 80-95.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@loc.gov
Martha Wallenhorst
Subject: Re: Joan, illigit dau of King John
I'll see if I can find it. It is also mentioned in a letter to her
brother Richard fitz Roy in when she ask
him to watch over Gryffen ap Llywellyn. She was obsessed with Maud de
Broase' imprisonment and
often wrote to her step mother that she was glad she was not of de Broase
"spawn" as the whole affair
with Arther or Brittainy and his imprisonment had cost Maud and her
entire family horrible deaths.
These are part of the National Archieves of France. It is also recorded
by the Monks of Aberconwy at
the marriage of Llywellin. I am not sure if the Chester Herald recorded
it or not but I would also look
there as they were married on Chester lands and Chester was the Uncle of
Llywellin.
Martha
James Barker
array provided by previous correspondents:
Gary Boyd Robert's useful book "Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants to the
American Colonies or the U.S." Gen. Publ. Co., 1993, p. 305, lists Joan as
daughter of King John with the following comment:
"(illigitimate by Clemence, possibly Clemence Dauntsey, wife of
Nicholas de Verdun) Joan Plantagenet = Llewelyn Fawr ap Ionwerth,
Prince of North Wales".
His source note for this descent, p. 307, says, inter alia:
"For the identification of Clemence, mother of Joan, Princess of
Wales, se a forthcoming article in TG ["The Genealogist", London, 1877 -
1922, New York & Salt Lake City, 1986 - present] by Douglas Richardson of
Tucson, Arizona".
James Barker
Vaughn Baker
descend from a James BARKER who came here to Virginia in 1621. The
name BARKER and BAKER was switched back and forth for about 3-4
generations by this family and then split into Barkers and Bakers early
in the 1700s.
Regards,
Vaughn Baker
Paul Mackenzie
>Weis AR7 (29A:26-27) states that Joan, wife of Llewellyn ap Iowerth, was
>the dau. of King John and an unknown mistress. I found an entry in the
>LDS/AF (yeah, I know !!!) that identifies that mistress as AGATHA, dau of
>William de ferriers, Earl of Derby and Sibyl de Braose. Does anyone out
JOAN is listed in the National Biography. Unfortunately I dont have a copy at
hand
Regards Paul
Andy Crawford
relationship. I am currently in the middle of the book and enjoying it.
Andrew Crawford, Ascott Corp. 1202 N. Main St.
Ann Arbor, MI http://ascott.com
Richard Kuhns, Jr.
The rest of that series, "Falls The Shadow" about the trials and tribs
of Simon deMontfort, and "The Reckoning" about Lywellyn ap Gryffyth,
Lywellyn Fawr's grandson, are also great. So is "Sunne In Splendor"
about The War of The Roses.