Egaline de Courtenay

[Andy Herron]

Mr Richardson, who was kind enough to answer my query, wrote the following:
"The Vautort/Valletort line you asked about was seated in Somerset. This
line has a hitherto unnoticed descent from Charlemagne through a Vautort
intermarriage with the Columbers family. The Columbers wife had a
Courtenay
mother who in turn descends from Isabel de Vermandois. Probably lots of
people have this line in their ancestry, but, you never see it cited, as no
one
knows of the Carolingian connection. "

What I have found, however, is a little off the Valletort mark, so to
speak, and I would like to see if anyone has information regarding my
findings -
Weis AR 24-29 leads me to Robert de Courtenay d. 1242-3.
Did this Robert de Courtenay have a daughter Egaline, b. abt. 1230 who
married Philip de Columbers b. abt 1230
and had son:
2. John Columbers b. abt 1246 Devon, England
3. Joan Columbers b. abt 1265 =Geffrey Stawell b. abt 1261 Cothelstone,
Somerset, Eng
4. Geffrey Stawell = Julian Gastelan
5. Sir Matthew Stawell b. abt 1330 Cothelstone
6. Margery Stawell b. abt 1360 = Richard Lyffee
7. Amice Lyffe = Baldwin Malet, son of John Malet of Enmore, Somerset,
England

thanks for any help
Jen Herron

[RBodine996]

>Weis AR 24-29 leads me to Robert de Courtenay d. 1242-3.
>Did this Robert de Courtenay have a daughter Egaline, b. abt. 1230 who
>married Philip de Columbers b. abt 1230
>and had son:
>2. John Columbers b. abt 1246 Devon, England

Paget's Baronage (# 138) shows Philip de Columbers (died 1262), of Nether
Stowey married Egeline, daughter of Robert de Courtenay, and had a son named
John. This marriage is based on original sources and is also cited in Honors
and Knight's Fees, vol. 1, p. 139 for the Honor of Honibere.

The Complete Peerage (iv, p. 335) shows Robert de Courtenay (died 1242) married
to Mary, daughter of William de Reviers, 5th earl of Devon.

John, the son of Philip de Columbers, was born 1254 and died in 1306. By his
wife, Alice de Pencester, he had 5 children, including Joan, wife of Geoffrey
de Stawell.

The 5th Earl of Devon was married to Mabel, daughter of Robert, Count of
Meulan, by Maud, daughter of Reginald, Earl of Cornwall, the natural son of
William the Conqueror. this link appears in many places including The Complete
Peerage, iv, p. 315-316.

Ronny Bodine

[Henry Sutliff]

RBodine996 wrote:

> Paget's Baronage (# 138) shows Philip de Columbers (died 1262), of Nether
> Stowey married Egeline, daughter of Robert de Courtenay, and had a son named
> John. This marriage is based on original sources and is also cited in Honors
> and Knight's Fees, vol. 1, p. 139 for the Honor of Honibere.
>

Sanders (p. 67) identifies six Philips and one John de Columbars/Columbers as
holding Nether Stowey, Somerset. However, he only identifies wife of Philip VI,
Eleanor,daughter of William IV FitzMartin of Blagdon. From this response it would
appear that Paget makes Philip IV as husband of Egeline de Courtenay.

Which Philip was father of a daughter (whose name I do not have) who was wife of
John de Valletort/Vautort (d. bef 1296) of North Tawton, Devon?

Thanks for any help.

Henry Sutliff

[RBodine996]

>The 5th Earl of Devon was married to Mabel, daughter of Robert, Count of
>Meulan, by Maud, daughter of Reginald, Earl of Cornwall, the natural son of
>William the Conqueror. this link appears in many places including The
>Complete
>Peerage, iv, p. 315-316.

That's what happens when you're in a hurry. Reginald, Earl of Cornwall, was
the natural son of Henry I, not William the Conqueror, who is not known to have
had any proven natural issue. Sorry about that.

Ronny Bodine

[RBodine996]

I did not comment on the line you were interested in so let me do so now.
Presumably the descent you refer to from Charlemagne through the Valletorts and
Columbers runs something like what follows. I have not cited any references
for Generations 1-13 as they are standard ones and can be found just about
anywhere. For Generations 14-18 refer to my previous reply for some sources to
connect. For Generations 19-21, see Devon and Cornwall Notes and Queries, vol.
20 (1938-9), p. 292-294 where the evidence connecting from Columbers and
Valletort can be found in a Somerset Plea of 1280 wherein Philip de Columbers
is described as the grandfather of John de Valletort's son Hugh de Valletort.
In 1280, Hugh was a minor and his father was still living. From Generation 18
on I have given a little more info since these folks are less well known.
There is probably much more to be found on the later generations in other
sources but I have not pursued these into any great detail.

1. Charlemagne
2. Pepin I, King of Italy 781-810
3. Bernhard, King of Italy 813-818
4. Pepin, Lord of Peronne (815-aft 840)
5. Heribert I, Count of Vermandois (c840-900/6)
6. Heribert II, Count of Vermandois (c880-943)
7. Robert, Count of Meaux (910/5-967)
8. Adelais of Troyes (c950-974)
=Geoffroi I, Count of Anjou (d. 987)
9. Ermengarde of Anjou
=Conan I, Duke of Brittany (d. 992)
10. Judith of Brittany (982-1017)
=Richard II, Duke of Normandy (d. 1027)
11. Robert II, Duke of Normandy (d. 1035)
12. William I, King of England (c1028-1087)
13. Henry I, King of England (1068-1135)
14. Reginald, Earl of Cornwall (1110/5-1175)
15. Maud
=Robert, Count of Meulan
16. Mabel
=William de Redvers, 5th Earl of Devon
(d. 1217)
17. Mary
=Robert de Courtenay (d. 1242)

18. Egeline de Courtenay. She was living 1297. She married Philip de
Columbers, of Stowey, Devonshire. Philip was born before 1209 and died shortly
before 20 Sept 1262. He fought in Wales 1257. (DCNQ, 20: 292; Honors &
Knights Fees, 1: 139; Paget's Baronage: 138; VCH, Somersetshire, 5: 104)

19. N.N. de Columbers. She married Sir John de Valletort, of North Tawton,
Devon. A patron of North Tawton Church in 1280, he was a knight in 1280 and
was summoned to serve against the Welsh in 1294. (Cal. Close Rolls, 1279-1288:
110; DCNQ, 20: 292, 294)

20. Hugh de Valletort, of North Tawton. A minor in 1280, he was dead by 1310.
He fought in Scotland in 1300. Married to Lucia le Bret, a widow in 1310.
She was the daughter of Adam le Bret, of Corypole, Devon. (DCNQ, 20: 292-294;
Knights of Edward I, 5: 92)

21. Elizabeth de Valletort, coheiress of her father to lands in North Tawton.
Married before May 1316 to Sir Richard Champernoun, of Modbury, Devon (d.
before 1338). For continuing descent please refer to my posting on the
Champernouns of Modbury.

Hope this helps some,

Ronny Bodine
Rbodi...@aol.com

[Benjamin Hertzel]

> Paget's Baronage (# 138) shows Philip de Columbers (died 1262), of Nether
> Stowey married Egeline, daughter of Robert de Courtenay, and had a son named
> John. This marriage is based on original sources and is also cited in Honors
> and Knight's Fees, vol. 1, p. 139 for the Honor of Honibere.

I have an unnamed daughter of Philip de Columbers marrying John de
Valletort (died ca. 1296). Is this the same Philip de Columbers? Do you
know the daughter's name? She was the mother of Hugh and Joel de
Valletort - Hugh died ca. 1310.

Thank you.

Benjamin

[HWinnSadler]

" who is not known to have had any proven natural issue".

The only thing off was the generation.

[taf]

On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 9:57:13 PM UTC-7, HWinnSadler wrote:
> " who is not known to have had any proven natural issue".
>
> The only thing off was the generation.

Can I make a suggestion here? When replying to a message from almost 20 years ago, you really need to supply more context than a quotation that does not include the name of the person being discussed. You can't assume that people are going to be viewing your message with a threaded reader that enables them to easily determine to what you are responding, to whom you are referring.

taf

[HWinnSadler]

Most people would have a threaded reader. And even if not, I'm replying to the poster in particular.

[joe...@gmail.com]

I don't know what you mean about most people and also why do you think the poster it's still going to be on this email list and remember what he had asked about 20 years ago.

[joe...@gmail.com]

I for one read this on a threaded reader usually but unfortunately I have got a few new computers in last 20 years so the history of the older post is no longer on my computer in the threaded reader

[taf]

On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 8:51:03 AM UTC-7, HWinnSadler wrote:
> Most people would have a threaded reader. And even if not, I'm replying to the
> poster in particular.

Probably most, but even the place I am viewing it (perhaps the most commonly used place) only linked it to the thread as a whole and not to the individual post to which you were responding. While, as has been discussed, the gateway to the GEN-MED mailing list is currently down, but were it working, recipients would receive the message as an individual item, or part of a digest, and not linked to other messages. They used to be linked in the GEN-MED archive, but that is now also not threaded.

You may have been addressing it to the original contributor, but they are unlikely to know what they wrote about two decades ago. That's even if they are still following GEN-MED, which is highly unlikely. If you want it to make sense to anybody else, context is vital.

taf

[Ian Goddard]

On 11/04/18 16:51, HWinnSadler wrote:
> Most people would have a threaded reader. And even if not, I'm replying to the poster in particular.
>

No you're not. You may think you are but in reality you're posting to a
group who may or may not still include the original poster. And even
threaded readers don't necessarily have access to the full history - it
depends on the user's news server.

That's why netiquette and established practice say you should start with
the date/time stamp and handle of the original poster followed by the
post or a relevant excerpt of it. It's also why most newsgroup software
automatically does this.

Ian