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C.P. Addition: Marriage of Isabel de Saint John, lady Saint John, and Sir Thomas [de] Wortyng (died 1390), of Basingstoke, Hampshire
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Douglas Richardson
Mar 8, 2016, 3:29:11 PM3/8/16
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Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage 11 (1949): 327-328 (sub Saint John) has a good account of Isabel de Saint John (died 1393), de jure suo jure Lady Saint John of Basing. This woman is ancestress of the later Lords Saint John of Basing and Marquesses of Winchester, as well as several 17th Century New World immigrants.
The following information is supplied by Complete Peerage regarding Isabel de Saint John's two known marriages:
"Isabel married, 1stly, in or before August 1347, Henry, younger son of Bartholomew (de Burghersh), Lord Burghersh, by Elizabeth, daughter and coheiress of Theobald (de Verdon), Lord Verdon. He died November 1348. She married, 2ndly, before 29 Jan. 1348/9, Luke de Poynings, presumably youngest son of Thomas (de Poynings), 1st Lord Poynings, by Agnes, younger daughter and coheiress of Sir Richard de Rokesle and Joan, sister and heiress of Bertram de Criel. He died between 5 June and 4 July 1376. His widow [Isabel] died 16 or 17 October 1393." END OF QUOTE.
Complete Peerage 14 (1998): 562 (sub Saint John) adds the following information regarding Isabel de Saint John:
"She married a third husband."
Curiously, no identification of Isabel's third husband is given by Complete Peerage, Volume 14. So who was Isabel de Saint John's third husband and when did this marriage take place?
I find that Isabel de Saint John occurs an unmarried widow between 1376 and 1381, as indicated by the following four contemporary records:
1. In 1377, as "Isabel Poyninges, lady of Saint John," she and Walter Devenish, parson of Chawton, and Thomas Worting owed Master Adam de Wigmore and other executors of her late husband, Luke de Poynings, a debt of £460 [see National Archives, C 131/27/24 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk)].
2. In 1378, as "Isabel de Ponynges, Lady of Saint John," in her widowhood, she granted one messuage and two crofts of land in Bramley, Hampshire to Humphrey Gylot, of Bramley, and Elizabeth his wife [see Burrows, Family of Brocas of Beaurepaire and Roche Court (1886): 409-410].
3. Isabel "widow of Luke de Ponynges knight" was engaged in a lawsuit in 1380 [see Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/1492, image 766; Date: 1380 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/Just1no1492/aJUST1no1492fronts/IMG_0766.htm].
4. As "lady Isabel de Ponynges and St. John," she presented to the church of Warnford, Hampshire on 4 Feb. 1380/1 [see Kirby, Wykeham's Reg. 1 (1896): 113].
Specific evidence of Isabel de Saint John's third marriage to Sir Thomas [de] Wortyng, of Basingstoke, Hampshire is found in two contemporary records:
1. Sir Thomas de Wortynge, kt. presented to the church of Warnford, Hampshire in 1387, in right of his wife, Isabel de Ponynges, lady St. John [see Kirby, Wykeham's Reg. 1 (1896): 160].
2. On 16 June 1390, King Richard II granted license "Thomas Wortyng, knight, and Isabella his wife, daughter of heir of Hugh de Sancto Johanne, knight, late lord of Basyng," to alienate in mortmain the manor of Binstead Seint Clere, Hampshire to the Bishop of Winchester [see Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1388-1392 (1902): 265].
As for further particulars of this marriage, I find that in Trinity term 1382 Richard Chaunse sued "Thomas de Wortynge of Basingstok in county Hampshire knight and Isabell his wife" regarding a debt of £20 [see Court of Common Pleas, CP40/485, image 73 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no485/485_0073.htm)]. Sir Thomas Wortynge, knight presented to the church of Winslade, Hampshire in 1383 [Kirby, Wykeham's Reg. 1 (1896): 137]. In 1386 Master Robert Branche, clerk, and three others, executors of Adam Wykemere sued "Thomas Wortynge of Basonestoke knight and Isabell his wife" in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt [see Court of Common Pleas, CP40/501, image 185f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no501/501_0185.htm)]. The same year Richard Waltham, Citizen and cutler of London, sued "Thomas Wortynge knight" in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 10 marks [see Court of Common Pleas, CP40/501, image 196f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no501/501_0196.htm)]. Sir Thomas Wortynge, kt. presented to the church of Chawton, Hampshire in 1390 [see Kirby, Wykeham's Reg. 1 (1896): 174].
Sir Thomas [de] Wortyng died testate shortly before 20 Dec. 1390, on which date William de Wykeham, Bishop of Winchester discharged his widow and executrix, Isabel [see Kirby, Wykeham's Reg. 2 (1899): 430]. Isabel, Lady Saint John, died 16 (or 17) October 1393.
In summary, it appears that Isabel de Saint John married (3rd) after 4 Feb. 1380/1 and before Trinity term 1382 Thomas [de] Wortyng, Knt., of Basingstoke, Hampshire.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Isabel de Saint John and her second husband, Sir Luke de Poynings, Knt.:
Anne Baynton, Elizabeth Bosvile, Charles Calvert, Jeremy Clarke, John Fenwick, William Goddard, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Complete Peerage 11 (1949): 327-328 (sub Saint John) has a good account of Isabel de Saint John (died 1393), de jure suo jure Lady Saint John of Basing. This woman is ancestress of the later Lords Saint John of Basing and Marquesses of Winchester, as well as several 17th Century New World immigrants.
The following information is supplied by Complete Peerage regarding Isabel de Saint John's two known marriages:
"Isabel married, 1stly, in or before August 1347, Henry, younger son of Bartholomew (de Burghersh), Lord Burghersh, by Elizabeth, daughter and coheiress of Theobald (de Verdon), Lord Verdon. He died November 1348. She married, 2ndly, before 29 Jan. 1348/9, Luke de Poynings, presumably youngest son of Thomas (de Poynings), 1st Lord Poynings, by Agnes, younger daughter and coheiress of Sir Richard de Rokesle and Joan, sister and heiress of Bertram de Criel. He died between 5 June and 4 July 1376. His widow [Isabel] died 16 or 17 October 1393." END OF QUOTE.
Complete Peerage 14 (1998): 562 (sub Saint John) adds the following information regarding Isabel de Saint John:
"She married a third husband."
Curiously, no identification of Isabel's third husband is given by Complete Peerage, Volume 14. So who was Isabel de Saint John's third husband and when did this marriage take place?
I find that Isabel de Saint John occurs an unmarried widow between 1376 and 1381, as indicated by the following four contemporary records:
1. In 1377, as "Isabel Poyninges, lady of Saint John," she and Walter Devenish, parson of Chawton, and Thomas Worting owed Master Adam de Wigmore and other executors of her late husband, Luke de Poynings, a debt of £460 [see National Archives, C 131/27/24 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk)].
2. In 1378, as "Isabel de Ponynges, Lady of Saint John," in her widowhood, she granted one messuage and two crofts of land in Bramley, Hampshire to Humphrey Gylot, of Bramley, and Elizabeth his wife [see Burrows, Family of Brocas of Beaurepaire and Roche Court (1886): 409-410].
3. Isabel "widow of Luke de Ponynges knight" was engaged in a lawsuit in 1380 [see Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/1492, image 766; Date: 1380 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/Just1no1492/aJUST1no1492fronts/IMG_0766.htm].
4. As "lady Isabel de Ponynges and St. John," she presented to the church of Warnford, Hampshire on 4 Feb. 1380/1 [see Kirby, Wykeham's Reg. 1 (1896): 113].
Specific evidence of Isabel de Saint John's third marriage to Sir Thomas [de] Wortyng, of Basingstoke, Hampshire is found in two contemporary records:
1. Sir Thomas de Wortynge, kt. presented to the church of Warnford, Hampshire in 1387, in right of his wife, Isabel de Ponynges, lady St. John [see Kirby, Wykeham's Reg. 1 (1896): 160].
2. On 16 June 1390, King Richard II granted license "Thomas Wortyng, knight, and Isabella his wife, daughter of heir of Hugh de Sancto Johanne, knight, late lord of Basyng," to alienate in mortmain the manor of Binstead Seint Clere, Hampshire to the Bishop of Winchester [see Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1388-1392 (1902): 265].
As for further particulars of this marriage, I find that in Trinity term 1382 Richard Chaunse sued "Thomas de Wortynge of Basingstok in county Hampshire knight and Isabell his wife" regarding a debt of £20 [see Court of Common Pleas, CP40/485, image 73 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no485/485_0073.htm)]. Sir Thomas Wortynge, knight presented to the church of Winslade, Hampshire in 1383 [Kirby, Wykeham's Reg. 1 (1896): 137]. In 1386 Master Robert Branche, clerk, and three others, executors of Adam Wykemere sued "Thomas Wortynge of Basonestoke knight and Isabell his wife" in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt [see Court of Common Pleas, CP40/501, image 185f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no501/501_0185.htm)]. The same year Richard Waltham, Citizen and cutler of London, sued "Thomas Wortynge knight" in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 10 marks [see Court of Common Pleas, CP40/501, image 196f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no501/501_0196.htm)]. Sir Thomas Wortynge, kt. presented to the church of Chawton, Hampshire in 1390 [see Kirby, Wykeham's Reg. 1 (1896): 174].
Sir Thomas [de] Wortyng died testate shortly before 20 Dec. 1390, on which date William de Wykeham, Bishop of Winchester discharged his widow and executrix, Isabel [see Kirby, Wykeham's Reg. 2 (1899): 430]. Isabel, Lady Saint John, died 16 (or 17) October 1393.
In summary, it appears that Isabel de Saint John married (3rd) after 4 Feb. 1380/1 and before Trinity term 1382 Thomas [de] Wortyng, Knt., of Basingstoke, Hampshire.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Isabel de Saint John and her second husband, Sir Luke de Poynings, Knt.:
Anne Baynton, Elizabeth Bosvile, Charles Calvert, Jeremy Clarke, John Fenwick, William Goddard, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
John Watson
Mar 9, 2016, 1:48:44 AM3/9/16
to
The correction in CP, vol. 14, p. 562, does not explicitly state the name of Isabel's third husband, but it does provide a reference, where his name can be found:
"See J.H. Round, "The Lords Poynmg and St. John", Sussex Arch. Colls., vol. lxii, pp. 1-20."
This volume is available online at archive.org, see:-
https://archive.org/stream/sussexarchaeolog62suss#page/6/mode/2up where Isabel's third husband is identified as Sir Thomas de Worting.
Regards,
John
al...@mindspring.com
Mar 9, 2016, 10:55:44 AM3/9/16
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http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/worting-sir-thomas-1390.
Doug Smith
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