Catholic recusant families
Shinjinee
have decided to concentrate on a few with long tenure in a particular
neighborhood. One of these families is the Scrope family (dating back
at least to the 1300s), another is the Weld family, and yet another is
the Giffard family. While I have read various sources of information,
I have not yet started to do serious research. Since I have only so
much time and money at the moment, I was thinking of saving up for
Cokayne (as the best source), but in the meantime scoping out other
sources at local libraries. The question I have is not whether these
families appear in CP (some do not), but how reliable are certain
sources for certain periods.
SCROPE for example. I assume that Cokayne will cover the period from
the mid-1300s (the first Lord Scrope of Bolton being created very late
in the century). How comprehensive will be the listing for different
branches, and with what reliability?
I assume also that the Burke's Landed Gentry should be discounted as a
source, except perhaps in a skeleton form. Ditto for the Burke's
Extinct Peerage (1883 version) which I have in the reprint edition.
Since I am not just interested in the genealogy, but a little bit
about the relations between this family (and others like it) and the
other noble or gentry families on the day, I know that I will find
references in CP and Burke's (about sons and daughters of the peerage
who married Scrope).
Barring primary research - which I do not plan to do as yet - should I
consider those references reasonably reliable, or reliable only in the
name of the Scrope and aristocratic spouse (but iffy on the parentage,
and position of that person in the family)? Most of my interest
actually focuses on what lies outside the medieval period
(specifically 1600 to ca 1950), but I would like to get a sense of
what I should watch out for both in tracing their pre-1600 ancestry
and their modern ancestry. Basically, I want to be able to footnote
my sources and reliability thereof.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you - from a newbie to
medieval genealogy (and miserably conscious of her lack of knowledge)
Shinjinee Sen (who usually posts on alt.talk.royalty)
The...@aol.com
Hello Shinjinee,
I know only a little in this area, but I hope I can be of some help.
CP will be of limited help, as it deals with those families (or branches of those families) in the Peerage: thus, a cadet line will not typically be dealt with (outside on an aside or a footnote), unless that line also attained a title as a Peer.
Two possibilities I might recommend, for reference and for leads:
1. The Consitutional Documents of the Puritan Revolution, 1625-1660, ed. Samuel R. Gardiner, M.A., D.C.L. (Oxford: OU Press, 3rd ed, 1906)
This will have a bit of detail, and should help identify some specific individuals you might want leads on. Helpfully or otherwise, the text can be found online at
http://www.nsacom.net/txt/Website_Mirrors/Liberty
[add continued:] www.consitution.org/eng/conpur.htm
2. A website with a bit of information on Kendal, Westmoreland you should browse, with a page entitled "The Papist's of Kendale" [sic]. This lists among other items, the following:
A. 1650 List of delinquents papists and ministers sequestered in the Barony of Kendal. List prepared by John Fawcett, clerk to the county committee
B. Calendar of the Committee for Compounding, pt. 1, 176
(Notes from depositions taken before the Committee for Sequestration of Westmorland from 1648 to 1651)
C. Offers made for the following estates of delinquents and Papists for one year's tenancy, from 2 February next [1650/51] and for six years thereafter
D. 1650 List of Delinquents and Papists whose estates are under sequestration
You can find the above at
http://
edenlinks.rootsweb.com/1gp/HISTORY/PAPISTS-ETC.HTM
Hope the foregoing is helpful.
Good luck and good hunting.
John
The Bibliographer
Shinjinee <ssen_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I am interested in Catholic recusant families (quite recently!) and
>have decided to concentrate on a few with long tenure in a particular
Don't omit looking at Thomas, the cardinal in the family. Some of this
material, below, you probably have seen. Check OCLC, too, for much
biographical and genealogical material on the Welds.
**************
WELD TOMMASO (+1837 apr. 10 a Roma 64enne, sepolto a S.Marcello -
creato da Pio VIII nel 1830 marzo 15); Vescovo di Amyclae; Marcello,
1830 luglio 5.
**************
Pius VIII (1829-1830)
Second consistory: March 15, 1830 (II) (1)
(3) 1. Thomas Weld.
(4) 2. Raffaele Mazio.
(5) 3. Domenico de Simone, prefect of the pontifical household.
(1) Eight Cardinals were reserved in pectore and never published.
***********************
See also the old <Catholic Encyclopeia> on the "New Advent" website.
--
Regards, Frank Young
tip...@wam.umd.edu 703-527-7684
Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891
"Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte"
Mike Gallafent
To take your example of SCROPE. Wills which really come near the top as
'best evidence' should be consulted. This particular family has been
well served with published transcriptions, viz.,
Scrope, Ann Lady, 1498
John, Esq., 1544
Margaret, Lady, 1431
Sir Stephen, 1405
of Bolton, John Lord, 1494
of Bolton, Richard Lord, 1401
of Bolton, Richard Lord, 1420
of Bolton, Roger Lord, 1403
of Upsal, John Lord, 1451
of Upsal, Elizabeth Lady, 1518
These may be found in 'Testamenta Vetusta', a two volume work, edited by
Nicholas Harris Nicolas, published by Nichols & Son, London 1826 (worthy
of a CD compilation?)
The Surtees Society has also published transcripts of SCROPE wills:
Scrop Joh le 1405
Scrop Ric le 1400
Scrop Roger le 1403 (probably the same as above)
Scrop Steph le 1418
Scrope John le 1452
Scrope John de 1453
Scrope Richard 1485
Scrope Ric bp of Carlisle 1468
Scrope Sir Stephen, lord 1405 (probably the same as above)
Scrope Sir Stephen le 1405
Scrope Thomas Lord 1492
Scrope Lady Elizabeth 1514
Scrope Sir Ralph 1515
And this is just the published transcriptions from just two sources:)
Mike.
--
=======================================================================
Mike Gallafent - Reading England - mgall...@yahoo.co.uk
=======================================================================
John Steele Gordon
"Shinjinee" <ssen_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8aae63a4.01101...@posting.google.com...
> I am interested in Catholic recusant families (quite recently!)
[snip]
> Most of my interest
> actually focuses on what lies outside the medieval period
> (specifically 1600 to ca 1950), but I would like to get a sense of
> what I should watch out for both in tracing their pre-1600 ancestry
> and their modern ancestry. Basically, I want to be able to footnote
> my sources and reliability thereof.
You might want to take a look at a book called The Catholic Elizabethans by
David Lunn, published in 1998 by Downside Abbey.
I know it covers several families, including the Arundells of Cornwall,
ancestors of the Calverts who settled Maryland. Its focus is not primarily
genealogical, but its bibliography might be helpful.
JSG
Chris Barttels
Title
Genealogical collections illustrating the history of Roman Catholic families
in England : based on the Lawson manuscript
by Henry Lawson ; edited by J. Jackson Howard, H. Farnham Burke & H. Seymour
Hughes
Authors
Lawson, Henry (Main Author)
Notes
Title page missing pt. 1-3.
Microreproduction of original published: [London : s.n.], 1887. 4 v.
Subjects
Arundell
Fermor
Hornyold
Hunloke
Petre
Phelips
Format
Books/Monographs (On Film)
Language
English
Publication
Salt Lake City : Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1993-1997
Physical
on 2 microfilm reels : ill., coats of arms, facsims., geneal. tables. ; 35
mm.
Film Notes
Note - Location [Film]
Vol. 1 - FHL BRITISH Film [ 1559446 Item 8 ]
Vol. 2 - FHL BRITISH Film [ 1559446 Item 9 ]
Vol. 3 - FHL BRITISH Film [ 1696579 Item 14 ]
Vol. 4 - FHL BRITISH Film [ 1559446 Item 10 ]
----------------
Christopher Barttels
Dayton, WA USA
> ______________________________
Renia
medieval genealogy. Neither is it particularly pertinant to genealogy,
for not all members of the one family were necessarily Catholics. The
term recusant more specifically applies to the 16th to 18th centuries.
None of the sources you mention below would be of much use, as few of
them, if any, would particularly mention whether an individual was a
recusant. That sort of information is more easily acquired from
histories of the families, where and if such exist, or from the
various legal documents of the 16th to 18th centuries which named the
individual recusants, and their punishements.
Your research will rather depend on what your focus is. A simple list
of families some of whose members were Catholics? Or the genealogies
of all families, some of whose members were Catholics? If the latter,
then it is quite a tall order. You mention a few family names, but
there are others, of course.
Yorkshire was a hotbed of recusants, particularly in the general
Ripley area, which the Inglby family dominated, for example, and some
of the lesser families roundabouts tended to follow their example.
The same is true for other areas of Yorkshire.
Renia
ssen_...@yahoo.com (Shinjinee) wrote in message news:<8aae63a4.01101...@posting.google.com>...
Shinjinee
Catholic recusancy comes rather late to the medieval period, but I was
more interested in tracking their medieval ancestors, and trying to
figure how much I should trust particular sources for a period, say
1300-1600. [That does fit within the scope of this group, I trust].
I am aware that their later history and genealogy does not fit in well
with this group, and I am sorry that I did not make myself clear. I
am trying to begin with the Scrope family, for a number of reasons
(firstly, that they have had an illustrious and presumably
well-documented history in the medieval period, post 1350 anyway;
secondly, that they are interconnected by marriage to a number of
other prominent medieval families; and thirdly, that they remain
Catholics to this date). I have done only a preliminary genealogy of
the family based on some published sources, and that I see just as a
starting point to find out who is related to whom, who descends from
whom, and who lived when. Before beginning any serious research, I
wanted to find out what sources would be more trustworthy. Wills were
mentioned; they came to my mind, along with marriage contracts and
deeds of sale of lands.
I cannot say what shape the work will take as yet, except that it will
not be a mere list of descendants (or of marriages, or of lands and
castles owned), but more a study of the local and national political
influence of this family. This is a very long-term project, so I will
not be able to post any reliable Scrope genealogy for well over a year
(I have a dissertation to finish first, quite unrelated to this topic
or to medieval matters; what I have so far is based on secondary
sources, and some look very iffy to me).
For the historical details, I do thank those who mentioned sources. I
appreciate your patience in this matter.
Shinjinee Sen
Tim Powys-Lybbe
ssen_...@yahoo.com (Shinjinee) wrote:
> Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I do realize that
> Catholic recusancy comes rather late to the medieval period, but I was
> more interested in tracking their medieval ancestors, and trying to
> figure how much I should trust particular sources for a period, say
> 1300-1600. [That does fit within the scope of this group, I trust].
I haven't seen anyone mention J J Howard's "Roman Catholic Families of
England, based on the Lawson MSS" (CP I, 261) which is on the Arundell,
Fermor, Hunloke, Petre and Phelips families. I gather that it is in
four volumes, truly magnificently done and in a very limited edition so
difficult to find. But try the British Library?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org