Brownes of London
D. Spencer Hines
perhaps in city politics and contributed several mayors to that fair
city ---- perhaps in the 15th or 16th Century.
Any truth to that factoid?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
"My name is Maximus Decimus Meridias, Commander of the Army of the
North, General of the Western Armies, loyal servant of the true Emperor,
Marcus Aurelius." <turning and speaking directly to Commodus> "I am
father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife, and I will have
vengeance in this life, or the next." -- Russell Crowe in Ridley Scott's
film _Gladiator_ [2000]
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
Vickie Elam White
at http://www.steeljam.dircon.co.uk/lordmayorchrono.htm
Vickie Elam White
Vickie Elam White
Renia
so was his father temp Eliz. They owned Cowdray Park, later home to the
Viscounts Cowdray. I have a little other information on them, but I'd have
to rummage for it!
Renia
Amanda Jones
> Sir Anthony Browne was Master of Horse temp Edw VI. If I recall correctl
> y,
> so was his father temp Eliz. They owned Cowdray Park, later home to the
> Viscounts Cowdray. I have a little other information on them, but I'd ha
> ve
> to rummage for it!
I have a feeling the Brownes were Catholics, skating on thin ice in
Edward's reign, and early supporters of Mary during the Lady Jane Grey
affair.
Amanda
Kay Allen AG
Kay Allen AG
Kay Allen AG
Browmes were merchants who were politically active in the aldermanic and
mayoral arena in London. As their wealth and power grew, so did their arena,
spreading to adjoining counties, where they had purchased properties.
Kay Allen AG
Amanda Jones wrote:
> > Sir Anthony Browne was Master of Horse temp Edw VI. If I recall correctl
> > y,
> > so was his father temp Eliz. They owned Cowdray Park, later home to the
John Steele Gordon
"Kay Allen AG" <all...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3AFAB0EB...@pacbell.net...
> These Brownes are later than the Brownes in whom Spencer was interested.
His
> Browmes were merchants who were politically active in the aldermanic and
> mayoral arena in London. As their wealth and power grew, so did their
arena,
> spreading to adjoining counties, where they had purchased properties.
>
> Kay Allen AG
>
> Amanda Jones wrote:
>
> > > Sir Anthony Browne was Master of Horse temp Edw VI. If I recall
correctl
I believe the first Browne family is ancestral to Oliver Manwaring,
immigrant to Connecticut. The second is certainly ancestral to Maria Johanna
Somerset, immigrant to Maryland.
JSG
Renia
two different families, then.
Renia
A Channing
D. Spencer Hines wrote;
> I've heard tell that a family named Browne was once prominent in London,
> perhaps in city politics and contributed several mayors to that fair
> city ---- perhaps in the 15th or 16th Century.
>
> Any truth to that factoid?
> --
The earliest Browne (Lord)/mayor of London was Stephen, Mayor in
1438 and 1448. His Will mentions his son and three grand-daughters
whom seem to be of age, so it is probable he had no son to
carry forward his line.
The connection to Browne family ancestors of Viscounts Montague
(not Viscount Cowdray) and to the later Brownes mayors of London given
in the Essex and Kent visitations (and used in some early versions of
Burkes) are erroneous. However, I think it likely there is a
connection between theses Browne families. Stephen probably came from
Newcastle-upon-Tyne as he leaves bequests to restore the bridge and
church there. The ancestors of the other mayor Brownes (all related
to one-another) came from Northumberland. One of the earliest of the
Viscount Browne ancestors, Sir Anthony Browne (died 1506 Calais) had
two wives both came from close to Rotherham, South Yorkshire, Sir
Anthony's father Sir Thomas (1414-1460 Ex) was of Betchworth, Surrey
(this property from Sir Thomas's wife Eleanor d&h of Sir Thomas
FitzAlan), but (differing to the more established theory that they
were well-rooted in Kent, Surrey and Sussex) I think the family
probably originated from Yorkshire. It is perhaps possibly that they
ultimately originated from Scotland where the name Brown is common and
had been use as a surname since at least 13c (eg ancestor of the Brown
family of Fordell, Perthshire, a William Brun witnessed a charter of
Donald, Earl of Mar (1272-1294))
Well, enough prating - here are most of my extracts I have
collected on Stephen Browne (I may get back to the other Browne
mayors, but they have been covered here before):
Stephen Browne grocer, mayor 1439, sent into Prussia causing corn
to be brought from there {fn To London in greater quantitie, 1st
Edition}; whereby he brought down the price of wheat from three
shillings the bushal to less than half that money.
(Stow's survey of London, page 100)
1438. The 17th (of Henry VI) Hugh Dyke, Nicholas Yoo [Sheriffs];
mayor Stephen Brown grocer.
Wheat sold for three shillings the bushel; but this man sent into
Prussia and caused to be brought from thence certain ships laden with
rye, which did great relief.
(Stow's survey of London, page 462)
1448 The 27th (of Henry VI) William Cantelowe, William Marrow;
[Sheriffs] mayor Stephen Browne grocer.
(Stow's survey of London, page 463)
1431. The 10th (of Henry VI), John Hatherley, Stephen Browne;
[Sheriffs] mayor John Wels grocer.
This John Wels, a great benefactor to the new building of the
chapel by the Guildhall, and of his goods the Standard in West Cheape
was made.
(Stow's survey of London, page 461)
5 March 1467. John Stokes, citizen and grocer acknowledged a
quitclaim [a renunciation of a claim or right] dated 20 Feb 1467 to
William Haydok citizen and grocer of all his interest in a tenement
with houses, shops and wharf called Asshelyneswarf formally Pakenames
wharf late in the tenure of Stephen Broun, deceased and situated in
the parish of St Dunstan in the East. [Tower Street ward].
(Calendar of Plea and Memoranda Rolls of the city of London p49)
5 March 1467. John Tate, alderman and Thomas Bledlowe citizen of
London, [same name as sheriff of London 1472 with John Browne another
mayor] acknowledged a deed of grant dated Christmas 1466 by themselves
and John Maldon and Stephen Tichemerssh as executors of the will of
Stephen Broun late alderman, to Robert Sympson draper, John Brompton,
fishmonger, John Bernewell, fishmonger and William Haydok grocer of
the unexpired term of a lease formerly granted by John prior of Holy
Trinity and the convent of the same, to the said Stephen Broun for 80
years from Christmas 1443 at a rent of a red rose for the first 15
years and thereafter ś12 p.a. The property consisted of a tenement
with houses, shops, solars [upper rooms] cellars and a wharf called
Asshelyneswharf formerly known as Pakenames wharf in the parish of
St Dunston in the East situated between the tenements formerly of
William Askham on the west, the lane called Watergate running down
from Thamisestrete to the river on the east, the highway of
Thamisestrete on the north and the river on the south. {fn
Asselyneswarf on the west side of Watergate is so designated in 1370
(Hustings Roll 99(23). In 1366 it had belonged to John Asselyn
(Hustings Roll 94(69)). A deed of 1554 describes it as Asshelinge
Wharfe sometime called Pakeman Wharfe and after called Chrychurch
Wharf and now called Gibson Key (Hustings Roll 247(91)). Deeds of
1591 and 1593, when it belonged to William Webb, mayor [in 1591 per
John Stow] adds alias Drapers Key (Hustings Rolls 272(5) 273(26)).
Now the site of the Customs House.) [But from John Stow, page 458 "The
foresaid John Churchman [Sheriff 1385] new-built the custom-house,
near to the Tower of London, and did many other works for the
commodity of this city."]
(Calendar of Plea & Memoranda Rolls of of London p45 Roll A88)
There are other refs to Stephen Browne in these calenders, but as
in his capacity as mayor.
Misc burials:- Stephen Browne, Grocer and sheriff 1431 and Lord
Mayor 1438 and 1448 burried (no date)
(The Browne papers, SoG, London)
Very little seems to be known of Sir Stephen, the Lord Mayor, and
absolutely nothing to connect him with Sir Thomas, [that is the father
of Sir George of Betchworth and also of Sir Anthony] nor is there
apparently any connection between their properties; but unless there
were two of the name successively citizens of London, [ie Stephens]
the date is too early to suppose that he [ie Sir Thomas] was the
grandson of a younger son of the member for Cumberland tempe Edward
III., [as stated in Mrs C Roundell's "Cowdray ..."] and if only one,
[ie one Stephen] it is conclusive against the fact that Stephen of
London was son of any Robert, and certainly that he was not a younger
son. The following scraps give some notices of persons of the name
being about London.
In 1379, 3 Richard II., a grant of one acre of land in Harewell
to Richard Browne and Alice his wife, and John his son, to which
Stephen Browne, [this is to early to be Mayor Stephen] his brother,
and William Browne were parties; and the same year it appears on the
patent rolls that the Bishop of Winchester gave to John Brown, in
tail, an acre of land in Harewell for one-twentieth part of a knight's
fee for 3s. 4d. rent. It also appears that a Stephen Brown was
brother of Richard. [This date is probably too early for it to be
mayor Stephen]
Sir Stephen Browne, Lord Mayor of London 17 Henry VI., [1438] is
probably identical with a collector of subsidies of that name for the
Port of London in 9 Richard II. [1386] [This date is to early for it
to be mayor Stephen] In 20 Richard II. [1397] (Close Roll, 2nd part in
5), Mabel, widow of Peter Besill, cousin and heir of Peter de Bruges,
released to Stephen Brown, Cit. of London., and Agneta his wife, his
rights in the Manor of Anne Savage, or Anne Port, in Southampton.
In 5 Henry IV. [1404] (part 1 in 22, Close Roll), Stephen Brunne
Cit. and "Grossar" of London, son and heir of Rich Brunne and Cecil
his wife, daughter and heir of Reginald, son and heir of John Julian,
released to Nicolas Carrue Senior, Esquire, of the County of Suffolk,
his lands in Croydon, Sanderslede, Mitcham, Begenham, Woodmersthorne,
Beddington, Cressalton, Bryston, Hourne, Lingfield, Callysdon, Farley,
and Aldington, which were formerly the property of Jo Julian. Dated.,
5 Henry IV.
In 17 Henry VI., [1438] the year of Sir Stephen's knighthood, and
of his serving the office of Lord Mayor, there is a fine between Rad
Barton, Citizen, with Stephen Browne, Rad Holland, Aldermen of London,
and Richard Horne, concerning land at Dunmowe, Essex, and Stanndon,
Herts; and in 24 Henry VI. [1445] Thomas Pyttes, of Thorneford, Beds,
released land to Stephen Browne, Cit. and Alderman of London, and Ross
his wife, of the Manor of Abbot's Lee, Huntingdon.
(John Pym Yeateman's "The Browne's of Betchworth..." pp 26-7)
This Anthony Browne [du Moatin] left two sons, Sir Robert and Sir
Stephen Browne. Sir Stephen, when Lord Mayor of London in 1439, sent
ships to the Prussian coast for cargoes of rhy, which he gave away
"among the poorer sort of people." In consequence of the scanty
hearvest of that year, corn in England was extremely dear, costing
three shillings a bushel.
(Mrs C Roundell's "Cowdray...", p 11)
There were now two stone gates [on London Bridge] and to
distinguish them it was found necessary to call the older one the
Great Stone Gate. Stow thus refers to it in his "Annals" when he
records its sudden fall on January 14th 1437. {fn It is an interesting
fact that part of the Pont d'Avignon which was begun almost at the
same time as London Bridge, fell in 1430, only seven years before this
disaster to its sister structure.} The collapse of the pier on which
it stood involved the arches adjoining on either side {fn A Chronicle
of London, p. 142.} and all the houses upon them, but no lives were
lost. {fn A Chronicle of London, Harleian MS. 565 (1827), Hen. VI,
anno 15. "Three Fifteenth Century Chronicles." Ed. J. Gairdner,
Lambeth MS. 306 (1437). Stow's "Survey of London," Vol. I, p.60.}
The Bridge wardens were now faced with a very formidable task, for all
traffic would be interrupted for a considerable period unless suitable
measures for reconstruction were taken at once. We know nothing of
any temporary structure, and yet it seems probable that timber arches
would have been built on one side for light traffic while the
stonework was being renewed on the other. Any prolonged stoppage of
movement across the Thames by the only bridge the City possessed must
have been very serious inconvenience to trade, although an inestimable
boon to the watermen.
...
Concerned for the general safety of the Bridge, Stephen Broun,
the mayor, thought it wise to obtain the best opinion on its
condition. He therefore wrote in 1438 to John Sarisbury, the prior of
Christ Church, Canterbury, {fn Canterbury Cathedral Library MSS., M.
14, fol. 176, verso. Letter dated 1438. "Royal Com. on Historical
MSS.", 9th Report, 1883. p. 114.} asking that Richard Beck {fn Or
Beke} [see 086 p 17] the clerk of the works to the chapter might be
allowed to inspect the Bridge and advise what steps should be taken
for its preservation. Beck was engaged by the prior and convent in
1435 "to do the governaunce, disposicion, rewle and entendunce of all
werkes of the Chirche." His emoluments consisted of a weekly wage of
4s.; "a conveneint house" or 20s. in lieu; 10s. for clothes "if the
priory gave him no livery"; and two pair of hose, "so long as he may
bestir himself, see and walk." If he became incapacitated he was to
receive the handsome pension of 2s. a day together with his allowances
for life. {fn Canterbury MS. L. 169, and "Memorials of Canterbury
Cathedral", Woodruff and Danks (1912), p. 200.} The funds for the
costly task of rebuilding this gateway and the adjoining arches or, as
Stow gives it, "the wirkes of the newe towre at the Southe end of
London Bridge" were aided by the gift of charitable citizens. {fn.
"Survey of London", Vol. I, p. 60, and Harleian MS. 538, fol. 15.}
Thus Robert Large, who was mayor in 1439, left 100 marks; Sir Stephen
Forster, mayor in 1454, gave ś20; and Sir John Crosby, sheriff in
1470, gave ś100. .....
(G Home's "Old London Bridge" 1931 (a fantastic book), pp 116-8)
Lineage.-ROBERT BROWNE, son, according to BURKE's Extinct
Peerage, of Sir ANTHONY BROWNE, K.B., so created at the Coronation of
King Richard II, 16 July, 1377, but probably son of JOHN BROWNE, of
Newcastle-on-Tyne, and therefore brother of STEPHEN BROWNE, Mayor of
London 1438-39 and 1448-49, whoes will dated 28 April, 1462 was pr. 5
Feb. 1465 (see History of Parliament, by COL. THE Rt. Hon. J. C.
WEDGWOOD) .....
(Burke's Landed Gentry 1937 p 2583)
COURT OF HUSTING, LONDON
CALENDAR OF WILLS
[published 1890 Vol II 1359-1688]
Broun (STEPHEN), grocer.-Bequest to the church of S. Dunstan in
the East of a certain rent issuing from a tenement and wharf called
"Asshelynswarff," and formerly "Pakenameswharf," in the parish of S.
Dunstan, so that the rector and churchwardens of the same maintain a
chantry for the space of sixty years for the good of his soul, the
souls of Juliana, Alice, and Rose his wives, and others, in manner as
directed; remainder over, in case of default, to the Mayor and
Commonalty of the City of London for the maintenance of a similar
chantry in the Guildhall Chapel. Bequests also to the poor of the
parish of S. Dunstan aforesaid; to poor prisoners of Newgate, Ludgate,
the King's Bench, the Marshalsea, the Flete, and the prison of the
Abbot of Westminster; {fn See note supra, p 471 [not in my copy]} to
divers orders of friars in London, the inmates of various hospitals,
the Prior and Convents of the Charterhouse, the nuns of Sopwell and
Kylbourne, &c. Among other bequests are the following:- To the fabric
of the church of S. Nicholas at Newcastle-upon-Tyne twenty pounds
sterling, and other sums of the fabric of the bridge at Newcastle, and
to the mendicant friars in the same town. To the poor almsfolk within
the place called "Grocershall" in the parish of S. Mildred in the
Poultry ten marks, and ten pounds sterling to the maintenance of the
said place. Bequests also of money to Rose, Katherine, and Agnes,
daughters of John his son. Also to the said son he leaves certain
tenements, wharf, &c., in the parishes of S. Botolph near
Billyngesgate, S. Dunstan near the Tower, and S. Andrew upon Cornhill,
in tail male; remainder in trust for sale, and one hundred marks of
the proceeds to be given to each of the daughters of the said John if
any survive, and the residue to be devoted to various pious and
charitable uses as prescribed. His property at Bishop's Lynn {fn Co.
Norfolk. Afterwards called King's Lynn, upon the Bishop of Norwich
giving up his fee (A.-S. Len) to Henry VIII.} (_in Lenn Episcopi_) to be
also sold for pious and charitable uses. Dated London, 28 April, A.D.
1462.
Roll 195 (48).
(Court of Husting, London:- Calendar of Wills, Vol II pp 553-4)
©Adrian (Surrey, UK) <ACha...@CompuServe.Com>
NB There should _not_ be an(y) attachment(s) to this plain text message
John Steele Gordon
""MRGIFFORD"" <MRGI...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:001001c0d976$9d0b36a0$9b970a3f@computer...
Leave it to good old JSG to allude to two of his own [alleged] ancestors
[Oliver Manwaring and Maria Johanna Somerset (with 18 lines of descent from
Edward III!!), the connection to whom he (JSG) was anxious to 'prove' in the
most recent issue of TAG].
(See http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jsggenealogy/Jsgordon/ )
As in the similar case of Brice M. Claggett, doesn't it, at some point,
become vulgar to insist ...?
John Brandon
1) I didn't allude to anything. I made a simple statement regarding Oliver
Manwaring's and Maria Johanna Somerset's ancestries. I trust your genealogy
is better than your English usage.
2) The fact that these two immigrants happen to be ancestors of
mine--alleged or otherwise--is neither here nor there, except that I am more
likely to have information about my ancestors than about people I am not
related to. After all, if you remove from the genealogical literature all
the articles and books that were written because individuals were curious as
to who their own ancestors were, the total literature available would be
smaller by at least ninety percent.
3) Oliver Manwaring had ten children, all born in the 17th century, and thus
has hundreds of thousands if not millions of living descendants today. A
fair number of them tune into SGM and might be interested. Are you arguing
that I should refrain from commenting on people who are ancestral to me?
That sharing information in my possession on, say, Richard Saltonstall, is
fine, but sharing information on, say, John Greene is somehow vulgar?
4) Since I have never met you nor talked to you, what is your source for
the statement that I was "anxious" to prove who was the wife of James Forbes
in the January TAG article? I don't deny that I was pleased to be able to
make the case that it was Jane Smith, granddaughter of Maria Johanna
Somerset. I was delighted. Is there anyone on this newsgroup who would not
be delighted in similar circumstances? "Damn! I've found a fabulous gateway
ancestor. I've got to hush this up somehow"?
5) What is it that Brice Clagett and I are wallowing in vulgarity for
insisting on? That we have ancestors? That we enjoy finding out who they
were? That we are happy to share any information we possess on them with
others? Perhaps you think that only those who were foundlings should do
genealogy, thus assuring the purity of their intellectual endeavors.
6) I don't know what occasioned your small-minded, constipated little post,
but I'd suggest you get over it.
JSG
A Channing
> 1438 and 1448. His Will mentions his son and three grand-daughters
> carry forward his line.
Oh dear - *should be grand-son
ŠAdrian (Surrey, UK) <ACha...@CompuServe.Com>
Kevan L. Barton
I have a Sir William Browne who was supposedly the LMOL in 1513 (according
to the way cool list suggested by Vickie Elam White in
http://www.steeljam.dircon.co.uk/lordmayorchrono.htm). Yet I've no
information beyond what CP provides in XI:484. For Richard Fiennes, VI Lord
Saye and Sele, it states he "m. Ursula, da. of Richard Fermor, of Easton
Neston, Northants, Merchant of the Staple of Calais, by Anne, da. and coh.
of William Brown, Lord Mayor of London. Does anyone have additional data on
William Brown? I'd much appreciate it.
Cheers,
Kevan
Sutliff
Mayor of London in 1507 and another in 1513. As the list indicates
second terms and in this instance it is not shown, suggests two
different people. William Browne, Mayor of London, son of John Browne
and Anne Belwood (who has some association with the Belknap family:
see the SGM Archives), was born in 1467 and died bef 29 May 1514. He
was married to Katharine Shaa, daughter of Sir Edmund Shaa, Mayor of
London and his wife Juliana _____. Children: William, Juliana (m. John
Mundy, Mayor of London), Olive and another daughter whose name I do
not show. Juliana Browne and John Mundy are the ancestors of Oliver
Manwaring, gateway immigrant to New London, CT. mentioned elsewhere in
this thread.
For mention of this descent see article in Jan 2001 TAG by Todd A.
Farmerie "Disproof of a Novel Descent of Oliver1 Mainwaring of New
London, Connecticut, from King Edward III of England: Henry Holland,
Duke of Exeter, and Robert Holland, "Bastard of Exeter".
Best regards,
Henry Sutliff
"Kevan L. Barton" <kevan...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:NCBBJKOAPKCOAKFHNCEL...@earthlink.net...
Reedpcgen
>some people (like you and Claggett) seem to claim to have more =
>royally-descended ancestors than a whole square mile of people in my =
>little corner of the world ....
>
>Peace,
>John
Actually, John and Brice (and his children) both have an amazing number of
valid descents from English royalty, and when Brice's book comes out, it will
be referred to frequently on this forum (it quotes sources for all lines).
I'm still stuck with a distant New England descent from Alice Freeman Thompson
which doesn't even get William "the Conqueror" (unless you count my Swedish
ancestry).
Maybe some of us would just relish the historical connections that both Brice
and John are able to connect to.
Paul
Kay Allen AG
Kay Allen AG
A Channing
Kay Allen AG wrote;
>
> The other William Browne of 1507 was John Browne's nephew.
>
I have seen the relationship given as nephew, but do you know if has been
proved. In his will John refers to this William as cousin, but probably
used with a "loose" meaning.
Adrian
Todd A. Farmerie
Stowe to have been son of John Browne of Okeham, Rutland. He was
Mayor in 1480. In his will he leaves a bequest to the parish of
"Lowik in the Countie of Northumberland", to his "kynnefolk
dwelling within the said Countie of Northumberland", and
relatives including "cosen Master George Werke Clerk", "cosen
Alice" sister of George, "cussons Thomas a Werke and Raufe a
Werke which were taken prisoners by the Scotte towarde there
raunson", "cosen James Werke to his wife and to his children",
"my wife's suster Elizabeth Belknap Tate the wife of Richard
Hatton, mercer", "my cosen her son doctour Hatton", "my wife's
broder called Thomas Bellwode", "cosyn Margaret Haydock widowe",
"sone Thomas Broune", "cosen William Browne Mercer dwelling at
Stebenheth", "the iiij children fo William Browne my sonne and of
Kateryn late his wife"(elsewhere called daughter of "Lady Shua"),
"Dame Anne my wife". He also leaves money to the parish of Saint
Thomas of Acres, where "the body of Richard Browne late my sonne
lieth buried". Executors Dame Anne and sons William and Thomas,
overseer William Browne of Stebenhethe. Dated 3 Nov. 1497,
proved 25 Jan. 1497. His i.p.m. places his death 1 Jan., with
William Browne, aged 30 and more his son and heir, and the list
of those hiolding jointly of John included William Browne,
mercer, merchant of the stable of Calais.
William Browne, mercer, 'cousin' of John, was Mayor in 1507, and
died in office. In addition to various London bequests, he names
"Thomas Hynde Citizen and Mrcer of London and to my doughter his
wife", sons Antony and Leonard, "cosyn George Weiks Clark",
"Thomas Torell my child", "cosyn William Browne Alderman Sonne of
Sr John Browne Knyght", wife Elizabeth, and equal parts of
remainder to "my vj children (that is to say) William Antony
Leonard Kath'ne Margaret and Anne. He makes provisions of what
should happen should Antony or Leonard die before they reach the
age of 21, but not William, suggesting he had reached majority.
Executors, wife Elizabeth, cousin William Browne Alderman, and
Thomas Hynde, overseed Sir Robert Rede. dated 20 Mar. 1507,
proved 6 June 1508.
William Browne, Mayor in 1513, he married first Katherine,
daughter of Mayor Edmund Shaa, and second Alice, daughter of
Mayor Henry Kebyll. he died in office, 3 Jun. 1514. His widow
Alice married William Blount, Lord Mountjoy. His will names "Sir
John Browne Knyght and of Dame Anne late his wife and my fader
and moder". It names "Maister Doctor Belloud Priour of the
Freres Augustynes in London" (which could be a Belwood kinsman),
the soul of his late wife, Katherine, his current wife Alice
Browne, children William John Mathewe Anne and ELizabeth, the
soul of Sir Edmonde Shaa Dame Juliane his wife, his cousin
Katheryn Alee, his cousin John West Mercer, "godson William West
their sonne", John West, brother of William, cousins Isibell
Pyke, William Browne the younger, son of William Browne the Elder
"late Alderman", and Richard Fenner grocer, Margaret Riche
Widowe, and Erasmus Forde Mercer (it is unclear if all of these
are still cousins - Margaret Riche was sister of his first wife),
cosyn Thomas Riche, cousin Maister Frysell Prior of Rochester,
the children of "myn Uncle Thomas Belwode". He indicates son
William was not yet of legal age, and bequeaths to "Sir Thomas
Tyrrel Knight" . . and to "My Lady his wife", and to "my daughter
Julian nowe wife of John Mondy Citizen and Alderman of London",
and to "my fader in lawe Henry Kebyll Alderman". Executors Henry
Kebyll and John Mondy, and RObert Blagge, Baron of the Exchequer,
Thomas Lovell and Richard Broke overseers. dated 29 May 1514,
proved 1 Jul. 1514.
It should be notd that the original Werke may be Wark, which is a
short distance from the parish of Lokyn named in John's will.
You will note that both Williams have daughters Anne. Several
sources marry Anne, daughter of William (1513) to, first Thomas
Tyrell, and second to William Petre, father of the first Lord
Petre. This and the fact that William (1507), as tennant of
John, is said to be merhant of the stable of Calais, then we are
left to conclude that Anne, wife of Richard Fermor, merchant of
the stable of Calais was daughter of William (1507).
taf
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
ancestors of the Ann Brown b abt 1720, who married Isreal Sidwell, & was
mother of Ellen Sidwell who married a Samuel Coppock b 1748 in Pennsylvania?
Annie
Kay Allen AG
seem to preclude him as son or grandson of John, so Nephew would seem
logical. He also appears to be of the right generation to be nephew.
Kay Allen AG
T Stanford M S P F Mommaerts-Meulemans-Browne
BUT, it has been conjectured that the Browne grand-mother of the Empress
Josephine was of the family of the Lords Montague, descended from the
Anthony Browne, Lord Mayor of London. Just another trail 4 U 2 pursue.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Steele Gordon" <ance...@optonline.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, 10 May, 2001 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Brownes of London
|
| "Kay Allen AG" <all...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
| news:3AFAB0EB...@pacbell.net...
| > These Brownes are later than the Brownes in whom Spencer was interested.
| His
| > Browmes were merchants who were politically active in the aldermanic and
| > mayoral arena in London. As their wealth and power grew, so did their
| arena,
| > spreading to adjoining counties, where they had purchased properties.
| >
| > Kay Allen AG
| >
| > Amanda Jones wrote:
| >
| > > > Sir Anthony Browne was Master of Horse temp Edw VI. If I recall
Chris Dickinson
>NB stable of Calais, should this be Staple of Calais. I think
>Staple means market, or something like that and Staple of
>Calais was Calais and its environs. I have only seen
>Staple used with Calais - a bit like Pale and Dublin I suppose.
A Staple was a fixed point through which all wool had to be
exported. This was useful for both governments and merchants as a
way of regulating prices, creating markets and raising taxes.
Attempts were made to establish Staples in various places (St
Omer, Antwerp, Bruges, London, Newcastle, York, Lincoln, Norwich,
Westminster, Exeter, Bristol, Shrewsbury, Carmarthen and Cardiff);
but the Bullion and Partition Ordinances of 1429-30 fixed the
Staple at Calais and required wool to be bought in gold/silver
with no credit allowed. This was to the advantage of 20-30 big
merchants, who hoped to squeeze out the rest, but actually
destroyed the wool trade. Cloth replaced wool as England's biggest
export.
Info from: JL Bolton 'The Medieval English Economy 1150-1500',
Dent, 1980.
A Channing
T Stanford M S P F Mommaerts-Meulemans-Browne wrote;
> I certainly don't have the evidence in front of me, IF there even is
some;
> BUT, it has been conjectured that the Browne grand-mother of the Empress
> Josephine was of the family of the Lords Montague, descended from the
> Anthony Browne, Lord Mayor of London. Just another trail 4 U 2 pursue.
>
Leo van de Pas knocked this one on the head in his message dated 24/03/99,
subject "Ancestors of Anthony Browne"
D. Spencer Hines
Frances Browne is alleged to have married a Richard Washington at St.
Martin-in-the-Fields in 1627.
So, the operative question is whether Frances is a member of this
Family ---- and if so, who her parents were.
----
Yes. This family has been much discussed in this forum.
Kay Allen AG
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
> I've heard tell that a family named Browne was once prominent in
London,
> perhaps in city politics and contributed several mayors to that fair
> city ---- perhaps in the 15th or 16th Century.
>
> Any truth to that factoid?
> --
>
> D. Spencer Hines
>
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do
> nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
"Most Illustrious Lord Father
We are terribly saddened by the death of your cherished sister, our dear
aunt; but our sorrow at losing her is as nothing compared to our concern
for your sake, because your suffering will be all the greater... And
while I tell you that we share deeply in your grief, you would do well
to draw even greater comfort from contemplating the general state of
human misery, since we are all of us here on Earth like strangers and
wayfarers, who soon will be bound for our true homeland in Heaven, where
there is perfect happiness, and where we must hope that your sister's
blessed soul has already gone...
I will say no more, except that with all our hearts we fervently pray
the Lord to comfort you and be with you always, and we greet you dearly
with our ardent love.
From San Matteo, The 10th Day Of May 1623.
Most affectionate daughter,
S. Maria Celeste" ---- [Suor Maria Celeste Galilei - Galileo's Daughter]
D. Spencer Hines
Frances Browne is the person I'm focusing on ---- trying to trace her
ancestry.
As I noted, she reportedly married Richard Washington [c. 1598-1642] at
Saint Martin-in-the-Fields, London, England ---- on 17 April 1627.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Most Illustrious Lord Father
We are terribly saddened by the death of your cherished sister, our dear
aunt; but our sorrow at losing her is as nothing compared to our concern
for your sake, because your suffering will be all the greater... And
while I tell you that we share deeply in your grief, you would do well
to draw even greater comfort from contemplating the general state of
human misery, since we are all of us here on Earth like strangers and
wayfarers, who soon will be bound for our true homeland in Heaven, where
there is perfect happiness, and where we must hope that your sister's
blessed soul has already gone...
I will say no more, except that with all our hearts we fervently pray
the Lord to comfort you and be with you always, and we greet you dearly
with our ardent love.
From San Matteo, The 10th Day Of May 1623.
Most affectionate daughter,
S. Maria Celeste" ---- [Suor Maria Celeste Galilei - Galileo's Daughter]
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"Renia" <PSim...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:3AFA60AB...@cwcom.net...
A Channing
>
> Frances Browne is alleged to have married a Richard Washington at St.
> Martin-in-the-Fields in 1627.
>
> So, the operative question is whether Frances is a member of this
> Family ---- and if so, who her parents were.
> ----
>
> Yes. This family has been much discussed in this forum.
>
> Kay Allen AG
>
>
I have not traced the above Browne family beyond that given in Faris
"Plantagenet Ancestry of 17c Colonists, so here is a different
WASHINGTON/BROWNE connection Thomas W with a son-in-law George B. (NB
son-in-law had a wider meaning than today and sometimes includes step son)
- again I have nothing more on this Browne.
ARCHDEACONRY OF COLCHESTER, ESSEX WILLS
THOMAS WASHINGTON of [St.] Mary Magdalen, Colchester, mercer,
and free[man] of the [Mercers'] Company of the City of London, 5
Nov. 1579.
To Agnes my wife for her life my house wherein I dwell called 2
tenements or rentaries, which I had of the free gift of Rd. OSBORNE of
Tillingham gentleman; on condition that she bring up my five children
Mary, Sarah, Andrew, Rebecca and Peter WASHINGTON in the fear and
service of God and with sufficient meat drink and apparel during their
minoriries; after her decease, to be sold by Lawrence my son, Rd.
OSBORNE, Geo. BROWNE my son-in-law, and Benjamin ANDREWS my neighbour,
and the money equally divided amongst my children at 18 or marriage
for my daughters and 21 for my sons. To James WASHINGTON my son my
say jacket, my gown I made last lined with white bays and faced with
fur, and a chest bound with iron bands and 2 locks. The rest of my
goods shall be divided, half to my wife and half to my children, to
remain in her hands to their education and bringing up. I make her my
executrix. Witnesses: Ralph HARGRAVE, John BATTELL, Rd. MASON. [No
probate clause.]
(Emmison's Essex Wills Vol IV No. 777)
Mark B
lists a Frances Browne, da. of Henry Browne "of London
eldest sonne in Cordwainer Ward" and Frances da. of
Thomas Wale of Padwinter in Essex. This Henry Browne
records his parents as Francis Browne of St. Ives in
com. Hunt. Esq. and Jane da. of Andrew Joyner of
Bigotts in Dunmow Esq.
I have interest in a Francis Browne who was allegedly
a London alderman around this time and had a daughter
Susan. Haven't determined whether my Francis Browne
is the same as the Francis named in the Visitation, as
it names three of Henry B.'s brothers but no sisters.
Susan married William Brisco (c. 1607-1688), who was
an MP from Cumberland during the Commonwealth. Anyone
know anything about Francis or Susan Browne?
--Mark
--- "D. Spencer Hines"
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Marin-Guzman
Spencer, this is the entry I've found in Colonel Chester's "London Marriage
Licences 1521-1869", ed Joseph Foster, London 1887.
(Taken from the Bishop of London's Office, also the Dean and Chapter of
Westminster's Office 1599-1699.)
Washington, Richard, gent., of St. Martin-in-the- Fields, bachelor, 46, and
Frances Browne of same, spinster, 27, daughter of Nicholas Browne, deceased
- at St. Martin-in-the-Fields. 14 April, 1627.
Hope it helps you.
Pedro Marin-Guzman
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
A Channing
in Camdon Soc Old series Vol 43 page 95) as:
Daughters of Francis Browne
by hiws m2 Jane Jenner
Thomasina, (between Arth and Johes); Alicia (between Edw and
Wms); Jana (between Wms and Antoni); Grisogood; Francisca (these two
listed last)
Mind you, if I was called Grisogood, I think I might look around for an
alternative.
I think your Padwinter should be Radwinter.
I have more on this family if you want it, a little muddled though.
In the following message there is a 17th century mention of Eleanore Drake
m John Brisco esq of Cumberland:
From: "Karen M. Boland" <istr...@FOX.NSTN.CA>
TO: MEDIEVAL GENEALOGY, INTERNET:GEN-ME...@MAIL.EWORLD.COM
DATE: 31/05/97 17:42
Re: Re: DRAKE of Devon
regards
ŠAdrian (Surrey, UK) <ACha...@CompuServe.Com>
NB There should _not_ be an(y) attachment(s) to this plain text message
D. Spencer Hines
Yes, Rosie Bevan was kind enough to send that to me as well.
It's quite intriguing. Faris PA2:398 does not have the father, Nicholas
Browne.
Does anyone have this Nicholas in the Browne Family of interest?
I'm puzzled about the age. Other sources have Richard born circa 1598
to 1600.
Richard was allegedly the fourth son and fourth child. His parents were
married in 1588.
His father Lawrence Washington, gentleman, of Sulgrave Manor was
reportedly born in 1568.
So, it's hard to see how Richard could have been born in 1581, making
him 46 in 1627.
He died in Jan 1642, at about 44-46 and was buried from the same church
where he was married, St. Martin's-in-the-Field. If he was born in
1597/8 he could have been 46 when he DIED.
Hmmmmmm.
I wonder if Colonel Chester or Joseph Foster might have made a
transcription error, confusing the records, and Richard was actually
about 27-29 when he married and DIED at 46.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"Marin-Guzman" <ma...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:B7293CB7.1DDD%ma...@ozemail.com.au...
Marin-Guzman
there are one or two pencil annotations on the margins correcting
individuals' ages in other parts of the book.
Also if Richard was apprenticed on the 7 July 1614, it would suggest he was
between 14 and 18 at the time, in that case a date of birth around 1598 is
more probable.
If it's indeed the Richard Washington mentioned in Faris PA2:368 (I guess
that's the one you mean, not Faris PA2:398) - "fourth son, apprenticed to
Clothworker's Company, London.." etc - then there is another entry in
"London Marriage Licences 1521-1869" which might be of interest (I could be
pushing my luck here!):
Washington, Thomas, of St. Stephen, Walbrook, London, clothworker, bachelor,
about 33, and Katherine Pepett, of St. Martin-in-the-Fields, 21 and upwards,
her parents dead - at St. Martin-in-the-Fields aforesaid. 8 July, 1672.
(This entry comes from the Registry of the Vicar-General of Canterbury.)
This Thomas Washington, born around 1639, may or may not be related,
however, I mention it because of the connection with employment (clothing
industry) and Walbrook is not a million miles away - it's in fact, just down
The Strand on the Thames embankment, towards the City - as well as the
St.Martin-in-the-Fields connection. Could he be a son of Richard Washington
and Frances Browne??
Pedro Marin-Guzman
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: "D. Spencer Hines" <Mar...@templelincoln.com>
> Organization: Apsley West
> Reply-To: "D. Spencer Hines" <Mar...@templelincoln.com>
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 01:05:11 +0100
> Subject: Re: Brownes of London
>
Renia
the
given ages are way out, so it possibly happened in London, as well.
Renia
Chris Dickinson
>I have interest in a Francis Browne who was allegedly
a London alderman around this time and had a daughter
Susan. Haven't determined whether my Francis Browne
is the same as the Francis named in the Visitation, as
it names three of Henry B.'s brothers but no sisters.
>Susan married William Brisco (c. 1607-1688), who was
an MP from Cumberland during the Commonwealth. Anyone
know anything about Francis or Susan Browne?
The Briscos are a very old Cumberland family and should be well
documented.
This William was the son of John (died 1632). He would also have
been, I think, uncle to the very well-known William Nicholson,
Bishop of Carlisle - so you may find something through that route.
Hmm, having said they should be well documented, I can't find
anything other than entries in Hudleston and occasional references
in the CWAAS.
D. Spencer Hines
I think you make a great deal of sense.
Richard did reportedly have a BROTHER named Thomas born about 1605. He
allegedly died in Madrid before 15 Aug 1623.
I suppose there could well be other Thomases in the Family.
Richard and Frances reportedly only had two children, Amy [b. Oct 1628]
and John [b. Feb/Mar 1631/2].
After Richard died in 1641/2, Frances Browne Washington reportedly
married a Ralph Hall.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"Marin-Guzman" <ma...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:B7296BA8.1DEC%ma...@ozemail.com.au...
Reedpcgen
I would suspect this was a misreading of Grisgona. This was an unusual female
name that occurred in other gentry families of the period.
pcr
Rosie Bevan
p236.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Dickinson" <ch...@dickinson.uk.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Brownes of London
>
Marin-Guzman
Chester's book:
Hall, Ralph, gent., of lincoln's Inn, bachelor, 35, and Frances Washington,
of St.Martin-in-the-Fields, widow, 34 - at St.Martin-in-the-Fields. 13 Jan.
1642/3.
(If indeed this is the same Frances (Browne) Washington, her age shows that
there may have been another transcription error - or, being a widow, she
might just have been a little economical with the truth!)
Then there's Elizabeth Browne who could perhaps be related to Frances
Browne:
Harvey, Valentine, of St.Leonard, Foster Lane, london, baker, and Elizabeth
Browne, of same, spinster, daughter of Nicholas Browne, deceased - at St.
Andrew-in-the-Wardrobe, London 5 July 1615
Finally, There's the record of Margaret Washington (Lawrence Washington's
daughter by Amphyllis Twigden):
Talbott, George, of St.Giles-in-the-Fields, gent., bachelor, 26, and
Margaret Washington, of same, spinster, 24 her parents both dead - at
St.Giles-in-the-Fields. 27 Feb.1662/3.
Most of Margaret Washington's details appear in Faris, except perhaps for
the marriage year, Talbott's age etc.
Pedro Marin-Guzman
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
D. Spencer Hines
a great-grandaunt to General/President George Washington.
Margaret Washington would be a sister to Colonel John Washington of
Westmoreland County, Virginia, who was the great-grandfather of George
Washington.
That leaves us with the key question of who this Nicholas Browne is and
where he may fit into the Browne Family of London.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
Vires et Honor
"Marin-Guzman" <ma...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:B72A0558.1E38%ma...@ozemail.com.au...
Mark B
Sources for the Briscos of Crofton Hall in Cumberland
include "History and Antiquities of ... Westmoreland
and Cumberland" (1777) by Nicolson and Burn; "The
Baronetage of England" (1804) by Betham, "History of
the County of Cumberland" (1794) by Hutchinson, etc.
Pedigrees were also recorded at Visitations of
Cumberland in 1615 and 1666. All of these provide
similar information apparently derived from the same
sources. They claim to trace the direct line to two
generations before the time of King John, or
thereabouts. Using primary sources, I've only been
able to confirm the decent of the Crofton Hall Briscos
from about 1500. Briscos were in Cumberland prior to
that, but the names don't seem to match the pedigree
given in the secondary sources. The earlier
generations in the pedigree seem suspicious.
William Brisco (1607-1688) who married Susan Browne
was indeed the son of John (1565-1632) and was also
Bishop Nicholson's uncle. William was also the nephew
of Richard Brathwaite (c. 1588-1673), who, according
to Encyclopedia Britannica, "after education at the
universities of Oxford and Cambridge, ... went to
London to practice law but instead wrote plays and
pastoral poetry of little merit." He was author of
"Barnabæ Itinerarium," often described as a doggerel
travelogue, and several books on etiquette for the
gentry.
Mark
D. Spencer Hines
travelogue, and several books on etiquette for the gentry."
Mark B. [Briscoe?]
-------------
1. DOGGEREL ---- Another Good Word ---- like POGUE.
2. We see a great deal of DOGGEREL here on SGM and SHM. We are
currently seeing great floods of DOGGEREL on the _Companions of the
Conqueror_, Master Wace and Crossbows at Hastings.
3. DOGGEREL flows in great rivers from American Academia and incurably
infects the body social, cultural and political. People are taught
DOGGEREL in schools and universities in the United States. Rancid lumps
of DOGGEREL constitute a DOG's BREAKFAST.
4. It's time for a Doggerel Elimination Campaign [DEC], or, if you
prefer ---- a Campaign of Doggerel Elimination [CODE].
Fortem Posce Animum.
Deus Vult.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"Mark B" <mygen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2001051817415...@web13605.mail.yahoo.com...
John Steele Gordon
news:IvdN6.771$Ka.2...@eagle.america.net...
> 1. DOGGEREL ---- Another Good Word ---- like POGUE.
>
> 2. We see a great deal of DOGGEREL here on SGM and SHM. We are
> currently seeing great floods of DOGGEREL on the _Companions of the
> Conqueror_, Master Wace and Crossbows at Hastings.
>
> 3. DOGGEREL flows in great rivers from American Academia and incurably
> infects the body social, cultural and political.
[snip]
Actually, doggerel as a noun means badly written verse, not prose. But there
is no hope of getting rid of it in any case.
As a great poet once explained, "Every doggerel has its day."
JSG
A Channing
<snip>
> William Brisco (1607-1688) who married Susan Browne
> was indeed the son of John (1565-1632) and was also
> Bishop Nicholson's uncle. William was also the nephew
Perhaps you have seen the web page below which gives a biography of Bishop
William Nicholson (1655-1727) eld son of Rev Joseph Nicolson (-1686) m Mary
dau of John Brisco of Crofton in Thursby.
http://www.b2gether.freeserve.co.uk/saints.nicholson.html
Séimí mac Liam
John Steele Gordon <ance...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:50eN6.121$y%1.14...@news02.optonline.net...
who liked to throw verbal left hooks.
He thought it in vogue
to use the word "pogue"
Accompanied by withering looks
D. Spencer Hines
Bravo.
Fortem Posce Animum.
Gordon, _au contraire_, has shafted the pooch once again. He has made
this same mistake on SGM before ---- and obviously did not learn his
lesson. He should stand in the corner for an hour with his face to the
wall.
Doggerel need not pertain only to poetry and has been in English since
the 14th Century ---- so, it's an excellent mediaeval word. Check the
Middle English etymology ---- most instructive. Eschew Pratfall.
Vide, any good dictionary ---- MWCD10 will do.
Repetitive Gordonesque Pratfall [RGP] ---- a well-known SGM and
occasional SHM phenomenon.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"Séimí mac Liam" <gwydd...@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:dmfN6.67$V22....@typhoon.aracnet.com...
D. Spencer Hines
Bravo.
Fortem Posce Animum.
Gordon, _au contraire_, has shafted the pooch once again. He has made
this same mistake on SGM before ---- and obviously did not learn his
lesson. He should stand in the corner for an hour with his face to the
wall.
Doggerel need not pertain only to poetry and has been in English since
the 14th Century ---- so, it's an excellent mediaeval word. Check the
Middle English etymology ---- most instructive. Eschew Pratfall.
Vide, any good dictionary ---- MWCD10 will do.
Repetitive Gordonesque Pratfall [RGP] ---- a well-known SGM and
occasional SHM phenomenon ---- continues unabated.
Further ---- Eschew Doggerel.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"Séimí mac Liam" <gwydd...@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:dmfN6.67$V22....@typhoon.aracnet.com...
|
John Steele Gordon
> Gordon, _au contraire_, has shafted the pooch once again. He has made
> this same mistake on SGM before ---- and obviously did not learn his
> lesson. He should stand in the corner for an hour with his face to the
> wall.
>
> Doggerel need not pertain only to poetry and has been in English since
> the 14th Century ---- so, it's an excellent mediaeval word. Check the
> Middle English etymology ---- most instructive. Eschew Pratfall.
>
> Vide, any good dictionary ---- MWCD10 will do.
>
> Repetitive Gordonesque Pratfall [RGP] ---- a well-known SGM and
> occasional SHM phenomenon.
What I wrote:
>Actually, doggerel as a noun means badly written verse, not prose. But
there
> is no hope of getting rid of it in any case.
> As a great poet once explained, "Every doggerel has its day."
Notice I wrote "as a noun." Hines fails to distinguish between the
adjective, which can apply to nearly any form of writing ("a doggerel
work"), and the noun, which means lousy poetry. Of course, in a sentence
such as "This is doggerel," is "doggerel" a predicate adjective or a noun?
Here are what two dictionaries say on the subject:
MWCD9 (don't have 10): n (1630) 1: doggerel verse 2: an example of doggerel
verse.
Oxford English Dictionary (unabridged): sb. Doggerel verse; burlesque poetry
of irregular rhythm; bad or trivial verse. b. a piece of doggerel, a
doggerel poem.
The OED also says the etymology is unknown, making it a bit hard to check,
but guesses it might be related to such as dog-Latin, etc. If Hines would
care to quote (not airily refer to) another dictionary, I'd be happy to know
of it, but the greatest dictionary in the world clearly supports my
statement.
If he is reduced to his usual ad hominem persiflage, perhaps he could spare
us. There's been enough bad manners on this forum lately.
JSG
Mark B
wrote:
> "He was author of "Barnabæ Itinerarium," often
> described as a doggerel
> travelogue, and several books on etiquette for the
> gentry."
>
> Mark B. [Briscoe?]
> -------------
Yes, "B" is for Briscoe.
And I'm interested in any others of that name who may
have roamed the North of England before
1500--especially any who may have resided at Crofton
near Carlisle and Wigton.
Richard Brisco of Crofton was the father of Robert B.
(c.1500-1542). This Robert was killed 24 October 1542
at Solway Moss, perhaps the most one-sided route in
the history of the border warfare. It seems that
fewer than a dozen Englishmen died, but my man somehow
managed to be one of them. It wasn't all bad--for his
trouble, Henry VIII (upon the request of Thos.
Wharton) granted the wardship of Robert's son, John
(c. 1523-c.1583), to the young man's mother.
Prior to Richard B., the line of the Crofton Briscos
is a bit murky. Names in the Cumberland Visitations
of 1615 and 1668 don't seem to jive with the
occasional mentions of Briscos in Close Rolls, Patent
Rolls, etc. For example, an Isold Brisco supposedly
acquired the manor of Crofton by marrying a Crofton
heiress during the reign of Ric II. I can't find
mention of an Isold Brisco or a Brisco-Crofton union
in any primary sources. Anyone have any ideas? Also,
can anyone cite other instances of "Isold" as a
masculine name? It seems to me "Isolde" was an Irish
maiden, as in "Tristram and Isolde." Would a
rough-and-tumble northern name his son after a
romantic Irish beauty?
D. Spencer Hines
been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Royal Descendants should
have more panache and gravitas. <g>
In Gordon's own examples, infra, we have "a piece of doggerel" and "This
is doggerel" ---- clearly referring to an object ---- with no limitation
confining it to poetry.
Gordon has been hoist on his own petard ---- and continues to write
doggerel.
MWCD10 has the following etymology [ME _dogerel_, prob. dim of _dogge_
dog] (14c).
Middle English ---- nothing to do with "Dog Latin" ---- only with dogs.
Verbum Sapienti.
Cave Canem.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"John Steele Gordon" <ance...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:OjgN6.362$y%1.28...@news02.optonline.net...
D. Spencer Hines
Gordon has been hoist with his own petard ---- and continues to write
doggerel.
Cave Canem.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"D. Spencer Hines" <Mar...@templelincoln.com> wrote in message
news:90iN6.814$Ka.2...@eagle.america.net...
Ed Mann
> > 1. DOGGEREL ---- Another Good Word ---- like POGUE.
> >
> > 2. We see a great deal of DOGGEREL here on SGM and SHM. We are
> > currently seeing great floods of DOGGEREL on the _Companions of the
> > Conqueror_, Master Wace and Crossbows at Hastings.
> >
> > 3. DOGGEREL flows in great rivers from American Academia and incurably
> > infects the body social, cultural and political.
>
> [snip]
>
> is no hope of getting rid of it in any case.
>
> As a great poet once explained, "Every doggerel has its day."
>
You are obviously an incorrigible punster and must not be incorriged.
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@earthlink.net
D. Spencer Hines
>
> JSG
"You are obviously an incorrigible punster and must not be incorriged."
"Ed Mann"
-------------------
That "Great Poet" seems to have known his etymology. There are puns and
then there are erudite puns.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"Ed Mann" <edl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B05C0F2...@earthlink.net...
Leo van de Pas
> > As a great poet once explained, "Every doggerel has its day."
> >
> > JSG
>
> "You are obviously an incorrigible punster and must not be incorriged."
>
> "Ed Mann"
> -------------------
>
> That "Great Poet" seems to have known his etymology. There are puns and
> then there are erudite puns.
> --
>
> D. Spencer Hines
========= I think we have been punished enough!!
Leo van de Pas
Séimí mac Liam
Leo van de Pas <leov...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:007101c0e004$6eeeab00$a6b43bcb@leo...
When puns began to be thrown
Leo gave us one of his own.
It was a small one.
A miniscule wee pun,
guaranteed to make us all groan.
tiglath
ZAP!
A few times a year Mr. Hines jousts with the Oxford English Dictionary, with
the results you see.
As soon as the previous pratfall gets lost in the fog, he takes a new one.
Nouns and adjectives continue to give him trouble:
"D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote
| "tiglath" wrote
> |
> | I regret to inform you that the _Brown-Nose_ appellative [sic] ***
> | is already in use. We discourage the overloading of epithets
> | in ways that can lead to confusion as to who the rightful owner is.
>
> *** Once again, KKK betrays his abysmal English-language skills.
And verbs:
"D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote
>
> Suriol has slipped his fragile tether to reality and
> is loathe [sic] to admit it.
Eschew Pratfall.
Indeed.
"John Steele Gordon" <ance...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:OjgN6.362$y%1.28...@news02.optonline.net...
D. Spencer Hines
There he goes again.
KKK is helpless in these matters ---- because he has never learned to
consult several sources and THINK. He gets a bee in his bonnet and he
can't move beyond Formulaic Rote-Think ---- the well-known mark of the
uneducated person. We've been seeing quite a lot of evidence for it
lately in both these newsgroups, with other players.
Suriol apparently has the Oxford English Dictionary on CD and he treats
it as if it were Holy Writ.
This is vastly amusing, as Suriol constantly badmouths the Holy Bible,
condemns any scintilla of Christian faith as pure rubbish and insists on
the values of Atheism ---- to all comers.
Beware the man of one book. Also, beware the man who has never learned
to THINK ---- but who just punches a dictionary ---- and often does even
that duplicitously, disingenuously and selectively.
José Suriol's native language is not English, and that's fine ---- no
one expects him to be perfect in English.
His mama-loshen appears to be Catalan and he knows Spanish as well, of
course.
But he has this incredible impulse to argue with and correct native
speakers of English about their usage ---- a sort of Death Wish, I
suppose. Hines would not THINK of trying to lecture a native Spanish
speaker on his Spanish ---- but Suriol ---- the self-confessed, out of
his own mouth, _Midget At The Urinal_ presses on, over the brink.
In his flaccid post, infra, he makes three primal errors:
1. He fails to understand that in American English _appellative_, used
as a noun, is a perfectly proper synonym for _appellation_. [N.B.
Perhaps the Brits will tell us more. ---- DSH]
2. He fails to understand that _loathe_ , used as an adjective, is a
perfectly proper spelling in American English. This has been pointed
out to him previously, several times, yet he is too obtuse to understand
it. Hence this blow upside the head with the 2 x 4. [N.B. Perhaps the
Brits will tell us more. ---- DSH]
3. Mired deeply in confusion, inadequacy, incompetence and error, KKK
then commits his final egregious error of falsely "correcting"
Hines ---- when he himself is actually Dead Wrong ---- on not ONE but
BOTH these words ---- appellative and loathe ---- both correctly used by
Hines.
Exitus Acta Probat.
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"tiglath" <tig...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:9e50um$hcf$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Todd A. Farmerie
"Séimí mac Liam" wrote:
>
> John Steele Gordon <ance...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>
> > As a great poet once explained, "Every doggerel has its day."
>
> There was a prof from the Cooks
> who liked to throw verbal left hooks.
> He thought it in vogue
> to use the word "pogue"
> Accompanied by withering looks
An off-topic thread did arise
which should really come as no surprise.
Since I am adverse
to such cross-posted verse,
(as you probably all could surmise)-
could we just discontinue this thread, or
since most is just fit for a shreader
given that it is such,
is it asking to much
to at least use a follow-up header!
taf
Reedpcgen
good source of English etimology).
Well, I'm waiting to be teached.
pcr
Chris Dickinson
>Chris,
>Sources for the Briscos of Crofton Hall in Cumberland
>include
<snip>
Ah, yes ... you obviously have the sources already.
I was surprised, though, that the CWAAS (which is a first class
academic journal) didn't have anything substantial in the indexes
that I have on my bookshelves - 1866-1900 and 1960-80 - nor in the
bibliographic listings by Stuart Raymond. One might expect a
family of this apparent age to have at least one learned article.
Sounds as though there is a lack of primary source material ...
and perhaps a lack of age :-)
Bishop Nicholson was at Queen's - which had special scholarships
for Cumbrians.
A couple of Briscoe references [abbreviated] that you may not have
from Feet of Fines:
Robert Briscoe, gen, and Eleanor his wife [29, 29 Eliz Mich] sold
60 messuages & lands in Harrington, Carlisle, etc., to Thomas
Denton, Ar., William Briscoe, Ar., Robert Sands, Ar., and George
Denton, Ar..
and
Robert Brisco, Ellen, his wife, and William Hutton, gen, [34 35
Eliz Mich] sold two messuages and land in Cleator to John
Dickenson.
Chris Dickinson
<snip>
>Would a rough-and-tumble northern name his son after a
romantic Irish beauty?
Well, you wouldn't expect a Constable of France to be named Anne
de Montmorency. :-)
Chris
John Steele Gordon
> Gordon, Gordon ---- how he does love to have a hissy fit, when he has
> been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Royal Descendants should
> have more panache and gravitas. <g>
>
> In Gordon's own examples, infra, we have "a piece of doggerel" and "This
> is doggerel" ---- clearly referring to an object ---- with no limitation
> confining it to poetry.
How does "a piece of doggerel" differ from, say, "a bit of verse"? Just by
the way, the example "a piece of doggerel" comes from the OED, not me.
How does "This is doggerel" clearly refer to an object? "This is blue."
This is worn out." "This is splendid."
> MWCD10 has the following etymology [ME _dogerel_, prob. dim of _dogge_
> dog] (14c).
>
> Middle English ---- nothing to do with "Dog Latin" ---- only with dogs.
MWCD10 takes its etymologies from the OED--just like everyone else does. The
OED says the etymology of the medieval word is unknown but possibly related
to such phrases as dog-Latin. If Hines would like to argue etymology with
the OED, using a desk dictionary as his only weapon, he may be my guest, but
leave me out of it.
JSG
tiglath
"John Steele Gordon" <ance...@optonline.net> wrote
> "D. Spencer Hines" <Mar...@templelincoln.com> wrote
> > "This is doggerel" ---- clearly referring to an object
> How does "This is doggerel" clearly refer to an object?
> "This is blue." This is worn out." "This is splendid."
Mr. Hines has reached rock bottom and shows signs of starting to dig.
D. Spencer Hines
_Doggerel_ clearly can refer to various types of writing including
either poetry or prose.
Of course, the differences between poetry and prose are often
miniscule ---- and are by no means theological ---- less so with every
year that passes.
If one wants to differentiate precisely between the two, one should say
_doggerel verse_ and _doggerel prose_.
Further, if Gordon thinks that the Middle English _dogerel_ derives from
dog-Latin, then the burden of proof is on him and I look forward to what
he comes up with.
Séimí mac Liam
entirely.
Séimí mac Liam <gwydd...@aracnet.com> wrote in message news:...
>
> Todd A. Farmerie <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
> news:3B063318...@interfold.com...
> "Excuse me for loosing my head.
> I do love to pun
> And let doggerel run,
> But I'll be happy to put it to bed."
>
>
> --
> Saint Séimí mac Liam
> Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
> Prophet of The Great Tagger
> Canonized December '99
> To send e-male you must play with my Nuts
>
>
>
GRHa...@cs.com
Mar...@templelincoln.com writes:
> This is vastly amusing, as Suriol constantly badmouths the Holy Bible,
> condemns any scintilla of Christian faith as pure rubbish and insists on
> the values of Atheism ---- to all comers
That shows he is a thinker.
Gordon Reid Hale
John Steele Gordon
> No Sale for Gordon.
Please note that Hines, who refuses to excise any material from his posts
however unnecessary, bandwidth be damned, did somehow manage to not include
what I had written in this post. This makes it easier for him to ignore the
points he is unable to deal with honestly and to lie about what I said
otherwise.
> _Doggerel_ clearly can refer to various types of writing including
> either poetry or prose.
I quoted the greatest work of lexicography the world has ever known (the
OED) and a highly respected dictionary (MWNCD9) to buttress my point. What
does Hines marshall in response? An airy declaration that he is right and
they are wrong. Does anyone actually think that if he were able to find a
half-way respectable reference backing up his point he would not have
instantly thrown it into the battle and declared it definitive?
But I looked a little further and was able to find three other respected
authorities without moving more than five feet from my keyboard:
Thrall and Hibbard, A Handbook to Literature: Doggerel: Jerky , rude
composition in verse. Any poorly executed attempt at poetry."
The Oxford Companion to English Literature: Doggerel, comic or burlesque, or
trivial, mean, or irregular verse. The derivation is unknown, but cf.
Dog-Latin."
The Reader's Encyclopedia: Doggerel. A word of unknown origin, probably not
to be connected with dog. Originally applied to poetry of loose, irregular
measure, like that of Hudibras, but now implying baseness and deficiency."
So, on one side of this argument we have five highly regarded and diverse
authorities in lock-step agreement as to the meaning of the word doggerel
when used as a noun. On the other we have a Hines pronouncement backed up
with a metaphorical wave of the hand.
> Further, if Gordon thinks that the Middle English _dogerel_ derives from
> dog-Latin, then the burden of proof is on him and I look forward to what
> he comes up with.
Here's what I wrote, but Hines carefully neglected to copy:
> The OED also says the etymology is unknown, making it a bit hard to check,
> but guesses it might be related to such as dog-Latin, etc.
I don't think anything on this subject, I merely reported, correctly, what
the premier authority on the subject of English etymologies (indeed, for all
intents and purposes, the only authority) wrote. No one doubts that the
modern word "doggerel" comes from the Middle English word, "dogerel"
apparently first used by Geoffrey Chaucer in the Prologue of The Canterbury
Tales in 1386: "Now swich a Rym the deul I biteche This may well be Rym
dogerel quod he."
It's where "dogerel" comes from that's at issue. According to the OED, no
one knows, but suggests comparing it with such phrases as dog-Latin.
Just by the way, the origins of the English word "dog" is unknown, one of
the great mysteries of etymology.
JSG
D. Spencer Hines
suffused with gross baseness and deficiency ---- of course it is not
worth repeating. Words evolve and new flavourings, new meanings
naturally emerge. Creative folks coin new, colourful usages and images.
Old wine in new bottles. Gordon, who is a quite pedestrian, stolid and
mundane writer, has not kept up.
He is parading his ignorance in high style today.
He is too lazy even to determine the etymology of the word _dog_.
W3NID makes it clear that the word derives from Middle English _dog_,
_dogge_, from Old English _docga_.
Gordon is dogged, doggy, doggish and dodgy ---- but he still writes
doggerel, gibberish and rodomontade ---- grossly base and deficient ----
devoid of any caloric value.
Gordon Should Eschew Doggerel and Dodgery ---- In Any Form. He should
also stay out of those New York Doggeries.
Finis.
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.
John Steele Gordon
> Gordon continues to write doggerel, gibberish and rodomontade ----
> suffused with gross baseness and deficiency ---- of course it is not
> worth repeating. Words evolve and new flavourings, new meanings
> naturally emerge. Creative folks coin new, colourful usages and images.
> Old wine in new bottles. Gordon, who is a quite pedestrian, stolid and
> mundane writer, has not kept up.
A word has a meaning that has been in use since 1630 and not one single
reputable source says it has any other meaning. But Hines has decreed
otherwise. So, as far as Hines is concerned, that's that. Pathetic but at
least consistent. Let's see that makes one person who thinks Hines is right
and 6 billion who think he's a jerk who would rather parade his jerkiness
than admit he is wrong about a trivial matter.
Stand by for more ad hominem persiflage. he's out of other ammo.
> He is too lazy even to determine the etymology of the word _dog_.
>
> W3NID makes it clear that the word derives from Middle English _dog_,
> _dogge_, from Old English _docga_.
STOP THE PRESSES! Hines has discovered the etymology of the word "dog"! It
comes from the English word . . . . "dog"! Oh! Be still, my heart!
Webster's Third New International Dictionary, like every other English
dictionary, takes its etymologies from the OED. Not being lazy (or stupid)
I went to the source. The OED says the following: "late OE dogca (once in a
gloss); previous history and origin unknown. (The generic name in OE, as in
the Teutonic langs., was hund, see Hound.) So far as the evidence goes, the
word appears first in English, as the name of a powerful breed or race of
dogs, . . ."
In other words, the etymology of the word dog is unknown. It simply appeared
one day in a gloss and no one has a clue where it came from.
Stand by! Incoming ad hominem persiflage alert!
JSG
Gryphon801
betters, and that even when, on rare occasions, he happens to be right - and
this is not one of them - he expresses himself in an ungentlemanly and
insulting manner. This is why I will not respond directly to any of his posts,
however full of garbage they may be. Perhaps if we all did the same he would
go back to Bowling Green, Kentucky and consort with his favorite "pogues"
there.
D. Spencer Hines
can just convince this Thompson pogge to stick a pair of socks in his
mouth and swallow it, I think we'll be just fine.
Vide infra.
Aloha
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"Gryphon801" <gryph...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010520004355...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
| By now it should be clear...
That Neil D. Thompson, alias gryph...@aol.com is an unmitigated,
flatulent, flaming ass.
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
D. Spencer Hines
Illegitimatis Non Carborundum
How Sweet It Is!
Renia
> No Sale for Gordon.
>
> _Doggerel_ clearly can refer to various types of writing including
> either poetry or prose.
>
> Of course, the differences between poetry and prose are often
> miniscule ---- and are by no means theological ---- less so with every
> year that passes.
>
> If one wants to differentiate precisely between the two, one should say
> _doggerel verse_ and _doggerel prose_.
Bollocks, as they say. Doggerel is "Comic verse".
Renia
D. Spencer Hines
2. _Doggerel_, as an adjective, means "marked by triviality or
inferiority" ---- among other things. Don't expect words to have only a
*single* meaning, as one pogue here insists, with respect to
*Feudalism* ---- to do so is simplistic and reductionist. You mark
yourself as a member of the poguenoscenti when you do so.
3. This English adjective _Doggerel_ ---- meaning "marked by triviality
or inferiority ---- can then be applied to various nouns.
4. For example, we may use your squib, one-liner, post infra as an
example. We may say:
"Renia's doggerel post to SGM and SHM is amusing, but depressing."
Or,
"Renia's post, infra, is a doggerel post."
5. By the simple and well-known process of linguistic elision,
particularly in English speech, we then drop the second noun,
"post" ---- since it is clearly understood, and is excess baggage. So,
we can say:
"Renia's post, infra, is doggerel."
6. Next, we are quite within our rights ---- after examination of
scores, indeed hundreds, of Renia's posts ---- to say:
"Renia writes doggerel [posts --- understood] and posts [them] it to SGM
and SHM."
7. There ---- have I made it simple enough for you?
8. One of the great beauties of the English language, indeed its
genius ---- *one* of them ---- is that it allows for, permits ---- and
indeed *encourages* this sort of evolutionary process of linguistic
growth and flowering. The language is enriched, simplified [in some
cases], enlarged, made more colourful ---- and many fruits are borne to
feed the faithful. Even the poguenoscenti gain thereby, although many
of them are too witless to see it.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Verbum Sapienti.
John 5:14
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"Renia" <PSim...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:3B070E07...@cwcom.net...
Renia
poetry, not other nouns in general.
Renia
Frank Martin
"One would think with all this wit"
"That Shakespeare himself came here to s***"
(Under which another callow sullen adolescent had penned---)
"What you say may well be true"
"For Shakespeare had an ****hole too!"
Now that's doggerel
"D. Spencer Hines" <Mar...@templelincoln.com> wrote in message
news:2qTN6.1350$Ka.3...@eagle.america.net...
D. Spencer Hines
| reference to poetry, not other nouns in general.
|
| Renia
-----------Cordon Sanitaire------------------------
Balderdash, Twaddle and Codswallop. [Vide infra postea. ---- DSH]
Renia, you are really inextricably mired in error on this one ---- and
have locked your feet in concrete, always a very unwise thing to do.
But, since I am a most pleasant and helpful fellow ---- always willing
to lend assistance ---- I'll try to break you out of your self-imposed
Bonds of Ignorance.
I am taking an Open, Catholic and Cosmopolitan point of view here,
whereas you are taking a closed, parochial, insular point of view.
We both live on islands -- and mine is much smaller than yours ---- but
you are much more INSULAR, narrow and hidebound in your thinking than I.
Perhaps that is an English character trait of longstanding ---- among
some of the English ---- "Fog In Channel, Continent Cut-Off" ---- or
words to that effect. "Splendid Isolation." <Groak!>
Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th Edition [MWCD10], a fine,
convenient, inexpensive English dictionary that even the _poguenoscenti_
should keep close to the computer, has the following definition for the
adjective _DOGGEREL_:
------------------
"doggerel
"[ME _dogerel_, prob. dim. of _dogge_ dog] (14c): loosely styled and
irregular in measure esp. for burlesque and comic effect: _also_, marked
by triviality or inferiority."
Yes, Renia ---- PROSE too has STYLE and MEASURE, not just poetry ----
GOOD, CAREFULLY written prose, that is. DOGGEREL PROSE does not ---- by
definition and tautology.
So, returning to the salient examples as provided so conveniently by
your posts to the newsgroups SGM and SHM over the past several years,
which I have read:
We may say with placid assurance that many of Renia Simmonds' posts [not
all] are:
1. Trivial
2. Inferior
3. Grossly Base
4. Deficient
5. Burlesque
6. Inspire A Comic Effect
OR ---- in much simpler, briefer, and easily comprehended language ----
the English language ---- your posts are frequently:
DOGGEREL
Now, was that simple enough for you, now that I have gotten down to the
sub-atomic level with you and examined the linguistic quarks up close
[which cannot be done with actual quarks] ---- as you are obviously
unable to ferret out these matters for yourself ---- [N.B. Vide, my
reference to feet locked in concrete, supra ---- DSH] ---- or do you
require further, remedial instruction in these delicate matters?
You can do a Good Turn now, and educate Gordon.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum
Exitus Acta Probat
John 5:14
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.
Verbum Sapienti.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"Renia" <PSim...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:3B082B0D...@cwcom.net...
tiglath
> Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th Edition [MWCD10], a fine,
> convenient, inexpensive English dictionary that even the _poguenoscenti_
> should keep close to the computer, has the following definition for the
> adjective _DOGGEREL_:
> ------------------
>
> "doggerel
>
> "[ME _dogerel_, prob. dim. of _dogge_ dog] (14c): loosely styled and
> irregular in measure esp. for burlesque and comic effect: _also_, marked
> by triviality or inferiority."
>
> Yes, Renia ---- PROSE too has STYLE and MEASURE, not just poetry ----
> GOOD, CAREFULLY written prose, that is. DOGGEREL PROSE does not ---- by
> definition and tautology.
What a patronizing twit!
Renia surely need no "lesson" from Hines.
What distinguishes prose from verse is the absence of metrical structure,
precisely. He quotes evidence contrary to his case and then tells us to
read into it what it doesn't say.
Such stupidity!
The Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, at
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
below the definition Hines gives, has this:
Top 10 Most Popular Sites for "doggerel"
which takes you to
http://webster.directhit.com/webster/search.php?qry=doggerelfor
for examples of doggerel. They are sites with humorous POETRY, i.e.,
doggerel.
ZAP!
dog-ger-el (dogr-l, dogr-) also dog-grel (dogrl, dog-)n. Crudely or
irregularly fashioned verse, often of a humorous or burlesque nature.[From
Middle English, poor, worthless, from dogge, dog. See DOG.]--dog'ger-el adj.
-- American Heritage Dictionary
Doggerel adj. Of verse: burlesque and composed in irregular rhythm. n.
Burlesque verse of irregular rhythm.
-- The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary.
This is in addition of the OED already referenced by JSG.
Mr. Hines continues to swim furiously towards a sinking ship.
D. Spencer Hines
| Renia surely need [sic] no "lesson" from Hines.
And, Compounding The Error:
| This is in addition of [sic] the OED already referenced by JSG.
José Suriol ---- Master of the English Language
---------------------------------------------------------
NOT "typos" ---- as Suriol would have us naively believe.
--------------------------------------
Alfonso Bedoya: _Immortal And Most Impressive Actor_ [IAMIA] ---- "Hola,
Señor. We are Federales. ---- You know ---- the Mounted Police."
Humphrey Bogart: [IAMIA]: "If you are the Police, where are your
badges?"
Alfonso Bedoya: " Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no
badges. I don't have to show you any steenkin' badges!"
_The Treasure of the Sierra Madre_ [1948]
How Sweet It Is!
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"tiglath" <tig...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:9e9p2h$9of$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
<baldersnip>
MARTIN REBOUL
D. Spencer Hines...
> 1. No. Dead Wrong.
>
> 2. _Doggerel_, as an adjective, means "marked by triviality or
> inferiority" ---- among other things. Don't expect words to have only a
> *single* meaning, as one pogue here insists, with respect to
> *Feudalism* ---- to do so is simplistic and reductionist. You mark
> yourself as a member of the poguenoscenti when you do so.
>
> 3. This English adjective _Doggerel_ ---- meaning "marked by triviality
> or inferiority ---- can then be applied to various nouns.
Aha! So at last we find out - Its Doggerel Spencer Hines isn't it! And I
thought it was David.......
MARTIN REBOUL
Frank Martin wrote ...
> I remember some doggerel from my school days:
>
> "One would think with all this wit"
> "That Shakespeare himself came here to s***"
>
> (Under which another callow sullen adolescent had penned---)
>
> "What you say may well be true"
> "For Shakespeare had an ****hole too!"
>
> Now that's doggerel
And once again, as with almost all things connected with D. Spencer Hines,
we're back to bottoms and all thing anal.......cue SFX, Dennis Price saying
"utterly revolting...."
J. A. Rea
"When I use a word," Humptyl Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone,
"It means what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so
many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master --
that is all."
"impenetrability!" That's what I say!"
Ki semenat ispinaza, non andet iskultsu!
J. A. Rea ja...@ukcc.uky.edu
nathan...@gmail.com
> transcription error, confusing the records, and Richard was actually
> about 27-29 when he married and DIED at 46.
Here is a transcript of the original marriage allegation in the registers of the Bishop of London [FHL film #544129]. The clerk spells out the age. IMHO this makes it very unlikely Richard Washington, Gent., of St. Martin in the Fields was the son of Lawrence and Margaret (Butler) Washington:
14to Aprilis 1427
W[hi]ch day appeared p[er]sonally Richard Washington in the parish of St. Martens in the Feilds in the County of Midd[lesex] gent[leman] and a bachelor and a bachel[o]r [sic] aged forty sixe yeares or thereaboutes And alledgeth that he intendeth to marry w[i]th Francis Browne of the same parish maiden aged Twenty seaven Yeares or thereaboutes the naturall and lawfull daughter of Nicholas Browne deceased And shee at her owne dispose And if there is noe lawfull lot? or imped[i]m[en]t by reason of any pr[e]contract Consanguinity affinity or the like to hinder this intended marriage as of ye pr[e]misses he maketh faith And proveth licence to be married in the parish Church aforesaid [signature] Rich: washington
I have a scan of the image, if anyone would like it.
I would conclude that the parentage of Richard Washington, Gent., of St. Martin in the Fields is unknown.
A few other notes on this line:
RICHARD BRENT
Richard Brent, Clothworker of London, to whom Richard, son of Lawrence Washington, was apprenticed in 1614, seems to be identical (as concluded by Percival Boyd in Inhabitants of London) to Richard Brent, whose children were baptized at London St. Mary le Bow from 1609 to 1612 (Boyd said these baptisms took place at London St. Mary Aldermary, but a review of images of the original records on Ancestry corrects this; they took place at St. Mary le Bow). Richard's wife Dorothy was buried there in 1615/6. The Worshipful Company of Clothworker's records are now online at http://www.londonroll.org/. His other apprentices were THOMAS WOOD (son of John Wood, Merchant, of Bourton, Somerset; app. 8 years in 1606); WALTER DANIEL (son of Henry Daniel, clerk, of Blockley, Worcestershire; app. 8 years in 1609; prob. the Walter Daniell who m. Elizabeth Pearde, 25 May 1620, at London St. Mary le Bow); JEREMIAS HALFEHEAD (son of deceased Jeremie Halfehead, Gent., of Saffron Walden, Essex, app. 8 years in 1611); and RICHARD PARNELL (son of Roger Parnell, Yeoman, of Congerton, Cheshire; app. 8 years in 1616[/7]). Richard Washington's son John does not appear in the Clothworkers records, or those of any other guild Cliff Webb has indexed.
RICHARD WASHINGTON, Gent. of St. Martin in the Fields
In the past, others have tried to locate a will or admon of Richard Washington (d. 1642/3). I gave it one more shot and checked the Royal Peculiar of Westminster. There were no Washington wills or admons between the 1630s and the 1670s [FHL film #94254].
CONCLUSION
Even if it were possible to conclude John Washington of Surry Co., VA was the John baptized in St. Martin in the Fields, Middlesex, in 1631/2 (which I see no reason to believe), that John has no documented royal ancestry; as the parentage of that John's father Richard Washington, Gent., of St. Martin in the Fields (b. c1581), is unknown.
Nathan
D. Spencer Hines
Two Points:
Parsing your presumed logic, if I may be permitted.
You quote the marriage record of a Richard Washington and a Frances Browne.
The date of said record is 14 April 1427 and states the groom is about 46
years old? Vide infra.
It follows that if this Richard Washington was about 46 years old in 1427,
he would have been born circa 1381.
Therefore it follows further that this Richard Washington cannot possibly be
the son of Lawrence Washington [ca. 1568 -13 Dec 1616] and his wife Margaret
(Butler) Washington [ca. 1570-16 Mar 1651/2].
Have I got it right?
Secondly...
You say:
"Even if it were possible to conclude John Washington of Surry Co., VA was
the John baptized in St. Martin in the Fields, Middlesex, in 1631/2 (which I
What is the evidence for any John Washington to have been baptized at St.
Martin in the Fields in 1631/2?
All Best Wishes,
D. Spencer Hines
Exitus Acta Probat
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"
wrote in message
news:173b2280-03d5-4019...@googlegroups.com...
taf
> > I wonder if Colonel Chester or Joseph Foster might have made a
> > transcription error, confusing the records, and Richard was actually
> > about 27-29 when he married and DIED at 46.
>
> Here is a transcript of the original marriage allegation in the registers
> of the Bishop of London [FHL film #544129]. The clerk spells out the age.
> IMHO this makes it very unlikely Richard Washington, Gent., of St. Martin
> in the Fields was the son of Lawrence and Margaret (Butler) Washington:
>
> 14to Aprilis 1427
This is also viewable at Ancestry.com in their 'London and Surrey, England, Marriage Bonds and Allegations, 1597-1921' collection.
taf
Adrian via
"Nicholas Browne" had only just died and that he came from "Keisborough in
the Isle, Surrey", wherever that is? We don't go in for many Isles here in
Surrey. At a long shot perhaps it was an old name for Eel Pie Island in the
Thames, near Richmond
First name(s) Nicholas
Last name Browne
Year 1627
Court Surrey Archdeaconry Court
Volume title Volume 11 Register 'Yeast' 1622-1631
Abstract reference SW/11_640
Contents SW/11_640
Nicholas Browne of 'Keisborough in the Isle', sick 9 May 1626 to my servant
Jane Townesend Ł2; residue to my daughter Frances Browne, exec. Witnesses:
Edward Lee; Richard Washington; William Netlesing Proved: 15 Feb 1626/7 to
exec. [DW/PA/7/11 f.367v; DW/PA/5/1626/27]
Surrey & South London Will Abstracts extracted by Cliff Webb
-----Original Message-----
From: nathanwmurphy via
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 5:21 AM Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Brownes of London
> I wonder if Colonel Chester or Joseph Foster might have made a
> transcription error, confusing the records, and Richard was actually
> about 27-29 when he married and DIED at 46.
Here is a transcript of the original marriage allegation in the registers of
the Bishop of London [FHL film #544129]. The clerk spells out the age. IMHO
this makes it very unlikely Richard Washington, Gent., of St. Martin in the
Fields was the son of Lawrence and Margaret (Butler) Washington:
Congerton, Cheshire; app. 8 years in 1616[/7]). Richard Washington's son
John does not appear in the Clothworkers records, or those of any other
guild Cliff Webb has indexed.
RICHARD WASHINGTON, Gent. of St. Martin in the Fields
In the past, others have tried to locate a will or admon of Richard
Washington (d. 1642/3). I gave it one more shot and checked the Royal
Peculiar of Westminster. There were no Washington wills or admons between
the 1630s and the 1670s [FHL film #94254].
CONCLUSION
Even if it were possible to conclude John Washington of Surry Co., VA was
the John baptized in St. Martin in the Fields, Middlesex, in 1631/2 (which I
see no reason to believe), that John has no documented royal ancestry; as
the parentage of that John's father Richard Washington, Gent., of St. Martin
in the Fields (b. c1581), is unknown.
Nathan
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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nathan...@gmail.com
Yes, your tip to look further into the marriage licence was very helpful.
> What is the evidence for any John Washington to have been baptized at St.
> Martin in the Fields in 1631/2?
But besides a coincidence of names, there is little to connect this baptism to the Virginian.
Best,
Nathan
nathan...@gmail.com
nathan...@gmail.com
> Last name Browne
> Year 1627
> Court Surrey Archdeaconry Court
> Volume title Volume 11 Register 'Yeast' 1622-1631
> Abstract reference SW/11_640
> Contents SW/11_640
> Nicholas Browne of 'Keisborough in the Isle', sick 9 May 1626 to my servant
> Jane Townesend Ł2; residue to my daughter Frances Browne, exec. Witnesses:
> Edward Lee; Richard Washington; William Netlesing Proved: 15 Feb 1626/7 to
> exec. [DW/PA/7/11 f.367v; DW/PA/5/1626/27]
> Surrey & South London Will Abstracts extracted by Cliff Webb
Best,
Nathan
nathan...@gmail.com
> I have not seen the earlier posts to this thread, but note that the
> "Nicholas Browne" had only just died and that he came from "Keisborough in
> the Isle, Surrey", wherever that is? We don't go in for many Isles here in
> Surrey. At a long shot perhaps it was an old name for Eel Pie Island in the
> Thames, near Richmond
I noticed several Nicholas Brownes married in Southwark between 1600 and 1620.
Nathan
nathan...@gmail.com
> > It follows that if this Richard Washington was about 46 years old in 1427 [1627], he would have been born circa 1381 [1581]. Therefore it follows further that this Richard Washington cannot possibly be the son of Lawrence Washington [ca. 1568 -13 Dec 1616] and his wife Margaret (Butler) Washington [ca. 1570-16 Mar 1651/2]. Have I got it right?
Richard Washington, Gent., of St. Martin in the Fields, was born c1581.
D. Spencer Hines
the John Washington (not ancestral to the President), who settled in Surry
County, Virginia. They found the baptism in a Harleian Society volume,
available here:"
https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE3998293
could refer to a baptism of an alleged John Washington in 1631/2.
DSH
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"
wrote in message
nathan...@gmail.com
> could refer to a baptism of an alleged John Washington in 1631/2.
March 1631[/2]: 14 die Johannes Washington filius Richardi et Francisca uxoris eius bap[tiza]tus fuit
IGI entry: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQ18-KJZ
Nathan
D. Spencer Hines
So, as I understand it, we don't know for sure who are the paternal
Grandparents of this John Washington who was baptized at St. Martin in the
Fields on 14 March 1631/2?
...Right?
Any ideas?
DSH
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"
wrote in message
nathan...@gmail.com
> Grandparents of this John Washington who was baptized at St. Martin in the
> Fields on 14 March 1631/2?
>
> ...Right?
>
> Any ideas?
nathan
nathan...@gmail.com
D. Spencer Hines
So, are you saying you DO know who this John Washington's parents are, but
you don't know who his paternal grandparents are?
DSH
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"
wrote in message
news:46636138-2399-4230...@googlegroups.com...
> So, as I understand it, we don't know for sure who are the paternal
> Grandparents of this John Washington who was baptized at St. Martin in the
> Fields on 14 March 1631/2?
>
> ...Right?
>
Correct. I'm not sure who his parents are.
nathan
wrote in message
news:93a107a8-1940-4525...@googlegroups.com...
nathan...@gmail.com
"Insula Vectis," is the Latin for "Isle of Wight." See: Charles Trice Martin, The Record Interpreter (London, 1892), 284. https://books.google.com/books?id=Ln4KAAAAIAAJ
In a card index to parish registers from the Isle of Wight Record Office, I found only one Nicholas Browne burial for this period [FHL film #1279008]. The burial took place at Carisbrook: 1626[/7] Janu[ary] Buryed ye 15 day Nicho: Browne [FHL film #1470803].
So "Keisborough" was an officiator in Surrey's rendering of "Carisbrook." I never would have guessed that.
Here is the text of the will:
In the name of God amen I Nicolaus Browne being sicke in bodye, but I prayse God of good and perfect memory doe make & ordeyne this my last Will and Testam[en]t in manner and forme following: First I give and bequeath my soule into the hands of Allmightye God my Creator, hoping by the mercyes and merites of Jesus Christ my Reedeemer and by a livelye fayth in him to have remission of my sines & life everlasting my bodye to be decentlye buryed in Christyan buryall
Item I give and bequeath unto Jane Townsend my servant forty shillinges in money
All the rest of my goods and Chattelles whatsoever I give and bequeath unto Francis Browne my daughter (my debtes being satisfyed and my Funerall discharged) whome I make sole Executrix of this my last Will and Testament In witnes whereof I hereunto sett to myne hand & seale this ninth day of Januarye 1626
[Seal]
Signed sealed and Confirmed in the presence of us
Edw: Leigh [Scr.?]
Rich: washington
William Kettelsing
Proved 15 February 1626[/7] by oath of Frances Browne ex.
Witness Richard Washington's signature matches the signature on his London marriage allegation.
Nathan
D. Spencer Hines
and the Family of Sir Anthony Browne KG of Cowdray Park [1500-1548].
DSH
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"
news:3881820e-8764-41e2...@googlegroups.com...
Adrian via
Thanks so much for your message, that was a good find.
I had assumed Keisborough was going to be in county Surrey. I suppose it was
more convenient for Frances Browne to have the will proved where she was
presumably living, rather than in Isle of Wight/Hampshire.
I see from "British History on Line" that in 17c Carisbrooke was known as
Carbrough, also earlier renditions were spelt with a "K".
It must be 50 years since I went around Carisbrooke Castle, all I can
remember is the well operated by a big wooden wheel driven by a donkey
walking inside the wheel. I guess that was what was known as a windless.
I don't suppose much more can be discovered about Nicholas Browne. In my
Browne records I do have another Nicholas Browne in near-by Shalfleet set
out below, and may just be the same person:
Regards,
Adrian
Reference: JER/BAR/3/12/1; Final Concord; Creation dates: 1613 Hilary Term;
Extent and Form: Two copies
Scope and Content
One messuage, one mill, one dovecote, 130a land, 20a meadow, 260a pasture,
20a wood, 20a fern and brush, 20a marsh, in Shalfleete and Calborne, I.W.
(1) Richard Worsley, Knight. and Bart., plaintiff
(2) Nicholas Browne, gent., and Frances, his wife, deforciants
PRO; A2A; Isle of Wight Record Office_ Barrington_Simeon Families of
Swainston.
Reference: JER/WA/35/9; Exemplification of a fine for MANORS OF
APLEDRECOMBE, SHALEFLEETT alias SHALFLETE and CHESSELL and 40 messuages
etc., in p's Shaflete, Calborne, Godshill, Newchurch, Atherton, Chale,
Whitwell and St. Lawrence.; Creation dates: 1664 October 24
Scope and Content
(1) Sir Henry Nevill, senior (quer.); Sir Henry Nevill, junior (quer.)
(2) Richard Worsley, esq., (deforc.); Nicholas Browne, gent (deforc.);
Frances, wife of Nicholas (deforc.)
Original Fine dated 1610 Easter Term
PRO; A2A; Isle of Wight Record Office_ Worsley of Appuldurcombe.
Reference: AC95/32.132a; QUITCLAIM; Creation dates: 10 Apr 1606; Extent and
Form: 1 doc
Scope and Content
(i) Nicholas Brown of Shalfleet, gent
(ii) Thoams Bowreman of Brook, esq
All actions, suits, demands, etc
PRO; A2A; Isle of Wight Record Office: The Manor of Brook
-----Original Message-----
From: nathanwmurphy via
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2015 2:52 AM Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Brownes of London
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