Taylor Crest and Motto
BobBecAlln
exact date of birth is unknown. He and his first wife had their first child in
12/1668. Therefore, I assume that he was born no later than 1650. He is said
to have possessed and worn a ring which had the Taylor Crest engraved on its
face (i.e., "a naked dexter arm, embowed, coupled at the shoulder, holding an
arrow proper").
There is a branch of Taylors commonly referred to as the Headfort Taylors in
the heraldry sources which have the identical Crest. The earliest grant of
arms which mentions this Crest which I can find in this line is the grant to
Taylour of Ireland in 1704 according to "Armorial Families", Arthur Charles
Fox-Davies, 7th Ed., (1930), page 1906. Other Branches of this family are the
Taylors of Ardgillan Castle (Ireland) and Taylor/Taylour of Dublin and
Lincoln's Inn. These Taylors are said to have traced back to Thomas Taylor of
Ringmore, Battle, Sussex Co., England (1559-1669). My James Taylor is not
mentioned in this lineage. This lineage says that Thomas Taylor of Ringmore
had two reported sons, (1) John and (2) Nicholas Taylor who d.s.p. (which I
think means died without heirs or without male heirs). John Taylor died in
1658 leaving only one son, Thomas Taylor of Kells, County Meath, who immigrated
to Ireland from England with his close friend, William Petty, and assisted
William Petty in the preparaton of the famous Down Survey. This Thomas Taylor
of Kells married Ann Axtell in 1658.
My James Taylor's alleged ring also had the Taylor Motto engraved on the ring
(i.e., "consequitur quodcunque petit"). This is the same motto as attributed
to the Headfort Taylors. From this Crest and Motto similarity, I suspect that
the two Taylors had a common ancestor. Does this seem like a probable
conclusion to you all?
My James Taylor could not be a son of Thomas Taylor an Ann Axtell because he
was born before 1658. He could not be a son of John Taylor (d. 1658) because
he is said to have only had one son, Thomas. He could be a
yet-to-be-discovered son of Thomas Taylor of Ringmore, Battle Sussex Co.,
England. Or, the connection could be at an earlier generation. It seems to me
that for the same Crest and Motto to run down two separate lines which split at
least as early as Thomas Taylor of Ringmore (1559-1629), that Thomas Taylor of
Ringmore had to be using the same Crest and Motto. Does this seem like a
probable conclusion to you all?
That brings me to the Crest and Motto of Pringle Taylor mentioned in" A
Genealogical and Heraldic History of The Commoners of Great Britain and
Ireland", by John Burke, Esq., Vol. IV., pages 237-245 (179?-18??). His
granted Crest was "a dexter arm in armour, embowed, in hand, gauntleted, a
javelin, all proper. His motto was identical to the Heatfort and James Taylor
Motto. Also, the Heatfort and Pringle Taylor had Coats of Arms which had a
chief involving two boars' heads, couped and erect, separated by a
fleur-de-lis. Pringle Taylor's lineage seems to be fairly solid back to John
Taylor, of the Homestall, in Shadochurst, County of Kent, living in the time of
Edward III (date ?). There is no known connection to the Headfort Taylors or
to my James Taylor. Still, the similar heraldry suggests to me that there was
a common ancestor? Does this seem like a probable conclusion to you all? Any
ideas on who the common ancestor might me?
Tim Powys-Lybbe
bobbe...@aol.com (BobBecAlln) wrote:
> I am descended from James Taylor who died in King & Queen Co., VA in
> 1698. His exact date of birth is unknown. He and his first wife had
> their first child in 12/1668. Therefore, I assume that he was born no
> later than 1650. He is said to have possessed and worn a ring which
> had the Taylor Crest engraved on its face (i.e., "a naked dexter arm,
> embowed, coupled at the shoulder, holding an arrow proper").
<snip>
>
> That brings me to the Crest and Motto of Pringle Taylor mentioned in" A
> Genealogical and Heraldic History of The Commoners of Great Britain and
> Ireland", by John Burke, Esq., Vol. IV., pages 237-245 (179?-18??). His
> granted Crest was "a dexter arm in armour, embowed, in hand, gauntleted, a
> javelin, all proper. His motto was identical to the Heatfort and James Taylor
> Motto. Also, the Heatfort and Pringle Taylor had Coats of Arms which had a
> chief involving two boars' heads, couped and erect, separated by a
> fleur-de-lis. Pringle Taylor's lineage seems to be fairly solid back to John
> Taylor, of the Homestall, in Shadochurst, County of Kent, living in the
> time of Edward III (date ?). There is no known connection to the
> Headfort Taylors or to my James Taylor. Still, the similar heraldry
> suggests to me that there was a common ancestor? Does this seem like a
> probable conclusion to you all? Any ideas on who the common ancestor
> might me?
In the first instance you may get a more knowledgeable response from the
people on the newsgroup rec.heraldry.
In the second instance, I know of several families of my ancestry of
around 1800 who either adopted arms of other unrelated families but of
the same name or created their own arms. The visitations were long over
so there was no penalty attached; it was convenient to do this rather
than go to the expense of getting some Herald to do something
'official'. The modern bucket shops for family coats of arms are little
different to these older practices.
The last thing is that mottoes are a comparatively recent innovation in
heraldry. It is only from the later part of the last century that they
became fairly universal. Further families changed their mottoes,
particularly if they were not on a formal grant of arms.
So you have to convince yourself that these arms that you have found
actually belonged to your forbears and were not assumed by him. In other
words you cannot use heraldry to prove genealogy, you must use genealogy
to prove the heraldry.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@southfrm.demon.co.uk
For a patchwork of bygones: www.southfrm.demon.co.uk
D. Spencer Hines
| So you have to convince yourself that these arms that you have found
| actually belonged to your forbears and were not assumed by him. In
| other words you cannot use heraldry to prove genealogy, you must
| use genealogy to prove the heraldry.
|
| --
| Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@southfrm.demon.co.uk
We see a number of attempts here to do just that --- use Heraldry to
prove Genealogy.
So, just because a woman in Virginia has some sort of
expensive-appearing ring with a crest --- and even a motto on it ---
means nothing with respect to genealogy --- even when matched up with a
poem and a partridge in a pear tree and a legendary juggler.
The Thinking 101 Rules Still Apply --- As Time Goes By.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles"
[c.1258-1264]
Paul C. Reed
I'll point out that a crest is given for the family of William Taylor of
Shadockhurst, co. Kent (from whom Pringle Taylor claimed descent) in the 1592
Visitation of Kent [Harleian Society 75:112], but this crest is given as
"A martin statant or."
This is nothing like the crest claimed by Pringle Taylor.
The fictitious pedigree of the Taylor ancestry appears in Burke's Commoners
4:237. No such early ancestry is given in the accounts of the Taylor family in
the Visitations of Kent, and there is no entry for them in the Visitations of
Sussex, whence Matthew Taylor's family is supposed to have removed.
It is claimed that Pringle Taylor was descended from Matthew Taylor, said to be
second son of John Taylor of Shadochurst, by his first wife Elizabeth Chute,
daughter of Philip Chute by his first wife Joane Ensinge.
Burke's Landed Gentry (1894) 2:1983-4 states that Matthew Taylor "(supposed to
be youngest son, by his first wife, of John Taylor...)" had, by his first wife
Alice (buried at Stoughton 21 Feb. 1591), a son named Matthew baptized at
Stoughton 19 Feb. 1591, but he had no male issue. The elder Matthew is stated
to have married (2) Margaret, daughter and eventually coheir of Richard
Freeland, Esquire, of Greatham, Hants.
Their fourth son is given as John Taylor, b. Shadochurst 1 Dec. 1611 [but why
would they have returned to Kent for his birth?], d. 1683. John is given as
being father of (by his wife Mary ___) Mathew Taylor, baptized 15 Oct. 1653,
"who, by his will, dated at New York in 1687, bequeathed property to his
brother, Edward, then residing in London, with reversion to Edward's son,
George Taylor."
Edward is stated to have succeeded his brother and "purchased a thousand acres
of land at Middlestown, New Jersey, 1692." Edward's son George Taylor is given
as marrying, in 1701, Helena Johnstone, of South Hampton, Long Island.
Thus, it is through this New Jersey Taylor family that Pringle Taylor descends.
Paul
Paul C. Reed
(from whom Pringle Taylor claimed descent) in the 1592 >Visitation of Kent
[Harleian Society 75:112], but this crest is given as
>
>"A martin statant or."
Actually, Pringle claims descent from William's brother John, but the point is
the same.
Paul
Paul C. Reed
Kent.
No early ancestry is given in the visitation pedigrees (earlier than the Tudor
period). Even Berry's Kent Pedigrees is careful. I did not see any long
pedigree of the family in our edition (14 vols.) of Hasted's History of Kent,
and in fact, it said little about them in the account of Shadoxhurst.
It is the account given in Burke's History of the Commoners and Landed Gentry
that attempts to trace the family to the time of the Norman Conquest. There
are several major disconnects in the claimed descent down to Pringle Taylor:
"Their ancestor was the Norman Baron Taillefer, who accompanied William the
Conqueror in his invasion of Great Britain, and of whom Wace, the Anlgo-Norman
poet, speaks, in describing the battle of Hastings, which took place on
Saturday, the 14th October, 1066.
Taillefer qui moult bien chantoit
Sur un cheval qui tot alloit
Devant eux alloit chantant
De Kalemagne et de Roland
Et D'Oliver et des Vassals
Qui moururent a Rouscevalles."
First, even if we admit to the historicity of a man nicknamed Taillefer, we
have had discussions about the origin and development of English surnames on
this group before. The English surname Taylor would not have derived from a
nickname borne by a man in 1066.
Now about the motto. It has already been pointed out that the use of mottos
was a fairly late development compared to the use of arms in England. It is
possible that someone of the surname Taylor became aware of the poem about a
man called Taillefer, and adopted a phrase from the poem as his motto. But the
existence of the motto is certainly no proof of descent from the man in the
poem!
Burke's continues:
"Hanger Taylefer, his descendant, held lands in the tenure of Ospringe, county
of Kent, 39 Henry III. (A.D. 1256), from whom we come to"
Another disconnect. I have seen no evidence to show the historicity of Hanger
Taylefer. Further, Ospringe is next to Faversham, about nine miles
west-north-west of Canterbury. It is no where near Shadoxhurst, south of
Ashford. One would need specific evidence before assuming any connection. So
there is NO reason to believe a connection between someone named Hanger in 1256
and someone named John Taylor who settled in Shadoxhurst, or Shadochurst after
1334/5.
There was no one named Taylor in the hundred of Blackbourne (which includes
Shadoxhurst) listed in the very detailed and comprehensive subsidy of Kent
in1334/5, though the 'surname' Taylor was not uncommon.
I am willing to believe that there may be evidence of the following descent,
given in Burke's Commoners:
1. John Taylor, of Homestall, Shadochurst "living in the time of Edward III"
[1327-77].
2. William Taylor, of Shadochurst "living in the time of Richard II., Henry
IV., and Henry V" [1377-1422], "co-heir in gavelkind with his brother John,
as appears by several ancient deeds"
3. John Taylor, of Shadockhurst, "who died about the 5th year of Edward IV"
[1466--might I point out the stretch of chronology between these first three
generations].
4. William Taylor of Shadochurst "who purchased additional lands adjoining the
Little Green, 15 Edward IV" [1476], and married "Joane, daughter of Henry
Gilbard, of Shadochurst" his will proved 20 August 1493.
5. John Taylor, of Shadochurst, in the time of Richard III. and Henry VII."
[1483-1509] "who purchased More Court in Ivie Church," and married Margaret de
Fairsted, daughter and sole heir of Humphrey de Fairsted, of Shadochurst.
6a. William Taylor, of Shadochurst, d. 1525, leaving a daughter Joane. [Will
Archdeaconry of Canterbury, v. 16, f. 278 (FHL #188,927)].
6b. John Taylor, of Shadochurst, married Thomasine Isaac, daughter of John
Isaac of Shevington. His will was 1551 [Archd. Cant., v. 27, f. 226 (FHL
#188,933)] and hers [v. 27, f. 134).
7a. William Taylor, of Romney, d. 1571, father of John Taylor of Thurnham who
married Anne Brockhill.
7b. John Taylor, second son of John, of Shadochurst, m. (1) Elizabeth Chute
"and had four sons, John, Humphrey, Roger, (who all d. young), [and] George, of
Criels Court, who removed into Sussex, and d. in 1633".
This is the next disconnect. It was a sloppy error to state that John Taylor
and Elizabeth Chute had four sons, and then to try to squeeze in a FIFTH,
Matthew Taylor.
I have seen no evidence to place Matthew Taylor in this family.
John Taylor (7b) married (2) Bridget Rucke, who is said to have left a will in
1619, by whom he had two sons,
8a. Thomas Taylor of Willsborough, "lord of the manor of Shadochurst," [d.
1611, father of Thomas Taylor, b. 1595, d. 1631, father of Sir Thomas Taylor,
Baronet], and
8b. John Taylor, of Monfords, m. Anne Austen.
[to be continued]
Paul C. Reed
Hampshire, about five miles north of Chichester.
Understand that Stoughton is no where near Kent, nor a likely place for someone
of Kent to settle (though the area of eastern Sussex, a completely different
area, had many connections with Kent). I have seen no evidence Matthew or his
immediate descendants bore arms, or had the right to bear arms, as they were
completely overlooked when the visitations of Sussex, London and Surrey.
The baptism of his son, also named Matthew, was recorded at Stoughton 19 Feb.
1591/2. This Matthew left a will dated 27 March and proved 14 June 1678 (PCC
58 Reeve [FHL #92,328]). He stated in his will that he was born at Stoughton,
formerly lived at St. Dunstan in the East, London, and was residing at St. Mary
Newington Butts, Surrey, at his death. He was a gentleman with an estate worth
hundreds of pounds who had purchased the manor of Effingham and had also
purchased land in London. He died leaving only daughters and grandchildren
[his daughter Margaret Taylor was bp. at St. Dunstan in the East 4 Sep. 1634,
and a daughter Elizabeth (by his second wife Frances?) was baptized. at St.
Mary Newington Butts, Surrey, 5 Sep. 1646].
Matthew (d. 1678), in his will, also named his eldest brother Richard Taylor,
father of a younger Matthew Taylor. Now Burke's gives this Richard as second
son, son of a second marriage, rather than elder brother of Matthew who is
given as son of a first marriage. Matthew also gave his brother John Taylor an
annuity of six pounds, which was to remain to John's son Matthew (if Matthew
should survive his father). Matthew also mentioned his brother Richard [same
as his eldest brother Richard?] of St. Clements Danes, Middlesex, and sister
Martha Younge. Burke's states that Martha Younge's husband William "Yonge" of
Midhurst, co. Sussex, died in 1651 "leaving his estates in Virginia, to his
second son, William, who was alive in 1678." No such will was listed by
Coldham, or by Stanard.
Burke's states that John Taylor, brother of Matthew Taylor (1592-1678), was "b.
at Shadochurst 1st December, 1611...appears to have been buried at St. Dunstan
in the East on 21st November, 1683". No wife is given. I highly doubt the
statement about his birth.
Margaret Taylor, daughter of Matthew Taylor (1592-1678) is stated to have
married (at St. Dunstan in the East, 1656) Thomas White, of St. Dunstan in the
West [sic] and of Horsham, Sussex. They had a son, Thomas White, who inherited
the manor of Effingham from Matthew, but was under age in 1678. Burke's says
that this Thomas White was employed with Matthew Taylor (son of John) at New
York, in purchasing lands from the Indians in New Jersey.
So in summary, we might believe that Pringle Taylor's descent from Matthew
Taylor of Stoughton, co. Sussex, is accurate, BUT there is no evidence of a
connection to the Taylor family of Shadochurst, co. Kent. The surname is
EXTREMELY common. Next, though the Taylor family of Shadochurst may be
descended from a local man named John Taylor who was living in 1377, this is
rather questionable. BUT there is no evidence to show he has any connection to
a man named Hanger Taylefer of Ospringe, co. Kent, 1256. FINALLY, though there
may indeed be a man nicknamed Taillefer in 1066, and a poem written about him,
there is no evidence to believe he had any direct male descendants named Taylor
in England. Any motto, created centuries after the poem, may have lifted a
line from the poem, but this is absolutely no evidence of descent.
Paul
Paul C. Reed
again.]
Cristopher Nash
>I pointed this out privately, but for the benefit of other Taylor descendants,
>I'll point out that a crest is given for the family of William Taylor of
>Shadockhurst, co. Kent (from whom Pringle Taylor claimed descent) in the 1592
>Visitation of Kent [Harleian Society 75:112], but this crest is given as
>
>"A martin statant or."
>
I feel I ought to give here a portion of a message - to which, I note
now, Nat Taylor refers as he takes wing for more glorious climes -
posted on 21 and 23 Nov 98 on the 'Mathew/Edward Taylor'/Middletown,
New Jersey connection. (I hope this'll be taken in the Xmas spirit -
the aim here isn't to create but to save more trouble.):
Cris
>The Elisha Taylor _Genealogy of Judge John Taylor and his
>Descendants_ -- one of the sources for the Bass-Bass book [cited
>below] -- is not simply unreliable but erroneous at the sole point
>where it seeks to show a _reason_ for considering a Shadockhurst,
>Kent connection with the Middletown, New Jersey line of Taylors.
>This is where Elisha Taylor -- _and_ the subsequent Asher Taylor
>account, as edited by Hiram E Deats in _The Jerseyman_, 1902 --
>claim that Matthew Taylor, declared to be a son of John Taylor of
>Shadockhurst (d.1683), bequeathed in his will of 1687 (brought to
>probate, NY, 1688) a mourning ring to his brother Edward "of Brigge
>House, York Co., residing in London". This 'brother Edward' is
>claimed by the Taylor historians to be the Edward of Middletown,
>East Jersey. The problem is that (a) there's clear evidence of the
>latter Edward as having been living continuously in
>Middletown/Shrewsbury/Colts Neck, NJ, since 1678, and (b) the will
>of Matthew Taylor shows Matthew leaving his ring to his 'brother
>_Samuel_ Taylor, residing in London', and then to his son George;
>no Edward Taylor appears anywhere in the will. (I note that
>Stillwell spotted this too.)
>
[SNIP]
>There is also, among these [expletive deleted] Taylor discussions of
>the turn of the century, a nagging persistence in connecting Matthew
>Taylor (above - a resident of New York) with the Carteret
>proprietorship in East Jersey, and via Carteret with the Scotts of
>Scott Hall, a family that, I take it, friends here have been
>reviewing as possible ancestors of Scotts of Virginia.
[SNIP]
>I've the strong sense that the continual linking of Matthew Taylor
>with the Carteret holdings in East Jersey * (a favorite fallback
>fantasy among old and desperate New Jersey family historians) is a
>balloon waiting to burst - and its relevance to Virginia
>developments is shady in any case. But I'd feel guilty not having
>mentioned the business _because_ I'm too ignorant of the matter to
>dismiss it! P.S. It doesn't mean I'm not interested.
>
>_________________________
>* e.g. 'A deed dated Nov. 19, 1681, conveys from certain Indians to
>Lady Carteret, in trust for Matthew Taylor of New York and others a
>large tract of land, being 4 miles in depth on both sides of the
>North Branch of the Raritan River at the junction of the North and
>South branches' (p 6). An (apparently) early memorandum or 'Bill in
>Chancery' of the 'deed' is quoted; a Matthew Taylor is given as one
>of four who 'paid' 'goods' on behalf of 'the Lady Proprietrix' to
>four named Indians.
>_________________________
[SNIP]
>I ought to add that the occasional identification of Edward Taylor
>"of Brigge House, Gent." as both Edward Taylor of Middletown, (New)
>Jersey (cattlemark 1678) and as brother of the Matthew of
>Shadockhurst previously mentioned are altogether wrong.
>
>The latter claim was patently so, but I confess to having done
>substantial research in records at the Borthwick before I could
>establish that the former wasn't conceivably correct, since I'd
>found a contemporaneous Edward Taylor of Brighouse (Yorks), son of
>leading Quaker Thomas Taylor (and hence carrying an air of
>credibility). Archival evidence of this Edward's continued presence
>and death in Yorks and total mismatch of his children with those of
>the E.T. of Middletown (East Jersey) wound things up.
>
>I need to say that I've not managed to trace the movements of the
>E.T. of Burlington [West Jersey]), and he may indeed have returned
>to England. But he fails to show up in the East Jersey Quaker
>Monthly Meetings, thus dispelling one of the few justifications for
>his serious consideration. And the claim (made by Christina Taylor
>Bass and Frank Nelson Bass, _Genealogy Taylor-Snow_, 1935)
>concerning Edward "of Brigge House, Gent." was specifically that he
>was the Edward Taylor of Middletown (East Jersey), and this is wrong
>for the reasons I've given.
>
>This is all of course without prejudice to Virginia claims, but I
>feel at ease saying that I'd be extremely doubtful about a
>Shadockhurst connection, at least on the merits of the published
>bumph I've seen
timtayl...@gmail.com
If you are still out there and get this message.
You need to do some serious research on the back story of this Knight's Tale. (ever see the movie starring Heath Ledger?) The movie plot will give you a hint as to what's going on here. All the information is out there but you need to do your own digging so you are satisfied with the truth when you find it, rather than take my word for it. I'll be happy to discuss it with you once you have done your due dilligence.
Tim Taylor
On Sunday, December 26, 1999 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-8, BobBecAlln wrote:
> I am descended from James Taylor who died in King & Queen Co., VA in 1698. His
> exact date of birth is unknown. He and his first wife had their first child in
> 12/1668. Therefore, I assume that he was born no later than 1650. He is said
> to have possessed and worn a ring which had the Taylor Crest engraved on its
> face (i.e., "a naked dexter arm, embowed, coupled at the shoulder, holding an
> arrow proper").
>
> the heraldry sources which have the identical Crest. The earliest grant of
> arms which mentions this Crest which I can find in this line is the grant to
> Taylour of Ireland in 1704 according to "Armorial Families", Arthur Charles
> Fox-Davies, 7th Ed., (1930), page 1906. Other Branches of this family are the
> Taylors of Ardgillan Castle (Ireland) and Taylor/Taylour of Dublin and
> Lincoln's Inn. These Taylors are said to have traced back to Thomas Taylor of
> Ringmore, Battle, Sussex Co., England (1559-1669). My James Taylor is not
> mentioned in this lineage. This lineage says that Thomas Taylor of Ringmore
> had two reported sons, (1) John and (2) Nicholas Taylor who d.s.p. (which I
> think means died without heirs or without male heirs). John Taylor died in
> 1658 leaving only one son, Thomas Taylor of Kells, County Meath, who immigrated
> to Ireland from England with his close friend, William Petty, and assisted
> William Petty in the preparaton of the famous Down Survey. This Thomas Taylor
> of Kells married Ann Axtell in 1658.
>
> My James Taylor's alleged ring also had the Taylor Motto engraved on the ring
> (i.e., "consequitur quodcunque petit"). This is the same motto as attributed
> to the Headfort Taylors. From this Crest and Motto similarity, I suspect that
> conclusion to you all?
>
> was born before 1658. He could not be a son of John Taylor (d. 1658) because
> he is said to have only had one son, Thomas. He could be a
> yet-to-be-discovered son of Thomas Taylor of Ringmore, Battle Sussex Co.,
> England. Or, the connection could be at an earlier generation. It seems to me
> that for the same Crest and Motto to run down two separate lines which split at
> least as early as Thomas Taylor of Ringmore (1559-1629), that Thomas Taylor of
>
> Genealogical and Heraldic History of The Commoners of Great Britain and
> Ireland", by John Burke, Esq., Vol. IV., pages 237-245 (179?-18??). His
> granted Crest was "a dexter arm in armour, embowed, in hand, gauntleted, a
> javelin, all proper. His motto was identical to the Heatfort and James Taylor
> Motto. Also, the Heatfort and Pringle Taylor had Coats of Arms which had a
> chief involving two boars' heads, couped and erect, separated by a
> fleur-de-lis. Pringle Taylor's lineage seems to be fairly solid back to John
taf
> It seems to me
> that for the same Crest and Motto to run down two separate lines which split at
> least as early as Thomas Taylor of Ringmore (1559-1629), that Thomas Taylor of
> Ringmore had to be using the same Crest and Motto. Does this seem like a
> probable conclusion to you all?
> Still, the similar heraldry suggests to me that there was
> a common ancestor? Does this seem like a probable conclusion to you all?
taf
taf
taf