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Sir John Dalmahoy of that Ilk, "near kinsman on the father's side"
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Steve Wilson
Apr 6, 2014, 4:10:35 PM4/6/14
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I suspect that my ancestor Helen Dalmahoy, successively wife of John Hamilton of Haggs and Alexander Knox of Silvieland, is the same as the Helen Dalmahoy mentioned in various legal proceedings from 1621/2 to 1629 who was sister of the deceased James Dalmahoy, burgess of Edinburgh, who had been slain by James Baillie of Crimpcramp (son of the deceased Matthew Baillie of Littlegill).
In these documents various relatives of the deceased James Dalmahoy are mentioned, including deceased father William Dalmahoy (merchant and burgess of Edinburgh), sisters Agnes and Helen Dalmahoy, a deceased brother, "mother's brother" Andrew Ker of Yair, and Sir John Dalmahoy of that ilk, who is called "near kinsman on the father's side."
How close of a relationship is implied by this phrasing ("near kinsman on the father's side")? Uncle? (First) Cousin?
Sir John Dalmahoy of that ilk was the son of Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk and Agnes Hamilton, illegitimate daughter of James Hamilton of Finnart, possibly by his mistress Elizabeth Elphinstone. Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk was himself the son of William Dalmahoy of that ilk by Janet Cleland of that ilk.
Alexander Hamilton and Agnes Hamilton had a marriage charter drawn up in 1557, per 'The Family Dalmahoy of Dalmahoy, Ratho, County of Edinburgh' (http://books.google.com/books?id=pXxJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA2). The only child of this marriage mentioned in that book is Sir John Dalmahoy, though the Laing Charters do show the existence of at least one other son (Thomas Dalmahoy of Birksneip and Watterstoun) (http://books.google.com/books?id=cFI-AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA548).
Could William Dalmahoy, burgess of Edinburgh, have been another son of this marriage? Or perhaps he was the son of James Dalmahoy, brother-german of Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk who is attested in documents from February 1577/8? The first case would make Sir John Dalmahoy and James Dalmahoy uncle and nephew, while the second case would make them first cousins once removed.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.
(A little more information on Helen Dalmahoy: She married first to John Hamilton of Haggs, by whom she had Alexander Hamilton of Haggs. Two other sons are attributed to this marriage by secondary sources - James and another Alexander. However, these two sons were actually Helen's children by her second marriage to Alexander Knox of Silvieland, a merchant in Glasgow. Alexander Hamilton of Haggs died in October 1649 and in testamentary documents names his brothers James and Alexander as curators to his underage son Alexander. Alexander Hamilton of Haggs married Jean Maxwell of Newark, a close kinswoman of Helen Dalmahoy's second husband, whose mother was Margaret Maxwell, also of the Newark family. Helen herself died about August 1642, when a testament was recorded in the Glasgow commissariot.)
In these documents various relatives of the deceased James Dalmahoy are mentioned, including deceased father William Dalmahoy (merchant and burgess of Edinburgh), sisters Agnes and Helen Dalmahoy, a deceased brother, "mother's brother" Andrew Ker of Yair, and Sir John Dalmahoy of that ilk, who is called "near kinsman on the father's side."
How close of a relationship is implied by this phrasing ("near kinsman on the father's side")? Uncle? (First) Cousin?
Sir John Dalmahoy of that ilk was the son of Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk and Agnes Hamilton, illegitimate daughter of James Hamilton of Finnart, possibly by his mistress Elizabeth Elphinstone. Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk was himself the son of William Dalmahoy of that ilk by Janet Cleland of that ilk.
Alexander Hamilton and Agnes Hamilton had a marriage charter drawn up in 1557, per 'The Family Dalmahoy of Dalmahoy, Ratho, County of Edinburgh' (http://books.google.com/books?id=pXxJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA2). The only child of this marriage mentioned in that book is Sir John Dalmahoy, though the Laing Charters do show the existence of at least one other son (Thomas Dalmahoy of Birksneip and Watterstoun) (http://books.google.com/books?id=cFI-AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA548).
Could William Dalmahoy, burgess of Edinburgh, have been another son of this marriage? Or perhaps he was the son of James Dalmahoy, brother-german of Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk who is attested in documents from February 1577/8? The first case would make Sir John Dalmahoy and James Dalmahoy uncle and nephew, while the second case would make them first cousins once removed.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.
(A little more information on Helen Dalmahoy: She married first to John Hamilton of Haggs, by whom she had Alexander Hamilton of Haggs. Two other sons are attributed to this marriage by secondary sources - James and another Alexander. However, these two sons were actually Helen's children by her second marriage to Alexander Knox of Silvieland, a merchant in Glasgow. Alexander Hamilton of Haggs died in October 1649 and in testamentary documents names his brothers James and Alexander as curators to his underage son Alexander. Alexander Hamilton of Haggs married Jean Maxwell of Newark, a close kinswoman of Helen Dalmahoy's second husband, whose mother was Margaret Maxwell, also of the Newark family. Helen herself died about August 1642, when a testament was recorded in the Glasgow commissariot.)
Steve Wilson
Apr 6, 2014, 7:27:39 PM4/6/14
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> Alexander Hamilton and Agnes Hamilton had a marriage charter drawn up in 1557
That should read "Alexander DALMAHOY and Agnes Hamilton had a marriage charter drawn up in 1557"
Louise Gibson
Apr 7, 2014, 3:09:00 AM4/7/14
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, Steve Wilson
James Dalmahoy, brother-german to Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk ( -before 1617),
mentioned in documents in February 1577/78, has a testament dated the 1 February 1588.
It is a Testament, Testementar and Inventory. Have you looked at this ?
Unfortunately my palaeography skills are not up to transcribing this early a document at
present, otherwise I would order it, as I would be interested in its contents also. My
line is Alexander, brother of this James.
Louise Gibson
Burnie
Tasmania in Oz
Kelsey Jackson Williams
Apr 7, 2014, 5:45:14 AM4/7/14
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Dear Steve,
I agree with Louise that you'll probably want to have a look at the 1588 testament, which may well clarify this issue. I assume you've seen the entry in the published registers for William Dalmahoy, merchant, admitted burgess of Edinburgh on 9 March 1590/91 [1]?
More generally, I'd say that "near kinsman on the father's side" _probably_ means something more distant than uncle, but it's hard to say with any certainty. Have you chased up the Kers of Yair to see if that might shed more light on the Dalmahoys?
Very best wishes,
Kelsey
scotsgenealogist.com
[1] Charles B. Boog Watson, ed., Roll of Edinburgh Burgesses and Guild-Brethren, 1406-1700 (Edinburgh, 1929), 140.
I agree with Louise that you'll probably want to have a look at the 1588 testament, which may well clarify this issue. I assume you've seen the entry in the published registers for William Dalmahoy, merchant, admitted burgess of Edinburgh on 9 March 1590/91 [1]?
More generally, I'd say that "near kinsman on the father's side" _probably_ means something more distant than uncle, but it's hard to say with any certainty. Have you chased up the Kers of Yair to see if that might shed more light on the Dalmahoys?
Very best wishes,
Kelsey
scotsgenealogist.com
[1] Charles B. Boog Watson, ed., Roll of Edinburgh Burgesses and Guild-Brethren, 1406-1700 (Edinburgh, 1929), 140.
Message has been deleted
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Apr 7, 2014, 11:55:45 AM4/7/14
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I have done a bit on the Dalmahoys for the Armorial of Sir David Lyndsay (ca 1532x34), but I don't go as far forward as 1600. However you information on their alliances chimes with what I have found.
I looked up Helen Dalmahoy in 'House of Hamilton', by Col Hamilton, pub 1936. The entry under Haggs is on p 438 and it says that John Hamilton of Haggs (b ca 1580, d 1617) was the son of Alexander and married, with a marriage contract of 21 Dec 1605, Helen daughter of Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk. The ref for the MC is Reg Deeds cxv, folio 334. Following the marriage she was granted by Alexander Hamilton the father and John, her husband, the 10 merks lands of Ryding in the barony of Monklands; the charter is dated 11 Jan 1606, but she did not register it under the Great Seal until 1630 (RMS viii 1505), when both her father-in-law and her husband had died.
The source of the identification of her is the Register of Deeds and it seems unlikely to me that this could have been misunderstood by Col Hamilton, who was a pretty meticulous researcher. I also looked up the Burgess records of Edinburgh, and I don't find any help there, most Dalmahoy burgesses being in the C17.
However the obvious way to interpret the data is that Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk, whom I date ca 1537-1601, was the father, by his first wife Agnes Hamilton, of Sir John (ca 1560-aft 1636) and grandfather of both another Sir John (dvpsp, ca 1585-bef 1536), who was Magister Hospitii of Charles II and his heir Alexander, 2nd son, but also the father of Margaret and Helen, but by his second wife Agnes Heriot. Margaret was married in 1601, so if Helen is her younger sister 1605 would be about right. If this is correct the second Sir John Dalmahoy (ca 1585) was the nephew of Helen.
However Sir John would not have been called her nevoy, as this word was used at that time to mean the heir if he was either a grandson or a nephew, ie not the son. The normal express for a nephew in the modern sense was sister's son, or brother's son. Incidentally Sir John went to England in the early 1600s and made quite a splash there, being described somewhere as a fine, elegant chap. He must have been to be Magister Hospitii.
As for relationships, an uncle is avunculus, or if specifically on the father's side patruus. Consanguineus means a relative, which we normally translate as cousin, but that is our word, not theirs!
I looked up Helen Dalmahoy in 'House of Hamilton', by Col Hamilton, pub 1936. The entry under Haggs is on p 438 and it says that John Hamilton of Haggs (b ca 1580, d 1617) was the son of Alexander and married, with a marriage contract of 21 Dec 1605, Helen daughter of Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk. The ref for the MC is Reg Deeds cxv, folio 334. Following the marriage she was granted by Alexander Hamilton the father and John, her husband, the 10 merks lands of Ryding in the barony of Monklands; the charter is dated 11 Jan 1606, but she did not register it under the Great Seal until 1630 (RMS viii 1505), when both her father-in-law and her husband had died.
The source of the identification of her is the Register of Deeds and it seems unlikely to me that this could have been misunderstood by Col Hamilton, who was a pretty meticulous researcher. I also looked up the Burgess records of Edinburgh, and I don't find any help there, most Dalmahoy burgesses being in the C17.
However the obvious way to interpret the data is that Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk, whom I date ca 1537-1601, was the father, by his first wife Agnes Hamilton, of Sir John (ca 1560-aft 1636) and grandfather of both another Sir John (dvpsp, ca 1585-bef 1536), who was Magister Hospitii of Charles II and his heir Alexander, 2nd son, but also the father of Margaret and Helen, but by his second wife Agnes Heriot. Margaret was married in 1601, so if Helen is her younger sister 1605 would be about right. If this is correct the second Sir John Dalmahoy (ca 1585) was the nephew of Helen.
However Sir John would not have been called her nevoy, as this word was used at that time to mean the heir if he was either a grandson or a nephew, ie not the son. The normal express for a nephew in the modern sense was sister's son, or brother's son. Incidentally Sir John went to England in the early 1600s and made quite a splash there, being described somewhere as a fine, elegant chap. He must have been to be Magister Hospitii.
As for relationships, an uncle is avunculus, or if specifically on the father's side patruus. Consanguineus means a relative, which we normally translate as cousin, but that is our word, not theirs!
Steve Wilson
Apr 7, 2014, 5:00:40 PM4/7/14
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Louise and Kelsey, thanks very much for your responses.
When I stated that James Dalmahoy appeared in documents from February 1577/8 I was mistaken. After reviewing my notes, I see the correct date should have been February 1587/8, the date of the testament you mentioned.
Reviewing my notes, I also see that Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk and James Dalmahoy had another brother, William Dalmahoy:
"On the 10th of July, 1579, the Laird of Dalmahoy [Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk], William Dalmahoy his brother, John Dalmahoy his uncle, and five others, were indicted for besieging the house of Warriston, in June 1578, then in the occupation of William Somerville, and were acquitted."
(books.google.com/books?id=pXxJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5)
Whether this William Dalmahoy was born of his father's first marriage (aft. 1536) to Janet Cleland of that ilk or his second marriage (1556) to Helen Monypenny of the Pitmilly family is unclear. However, James Dalmahoy is referred to as "brother-german to Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk" in his testamentary documents, so his mother was definitely Janet Cleland.
John Dalmahoy, the uncle of Alexander, James, and William, is the brother of their father William Dalmahoy of that ilk. William Dalmahoy of that ilk and his brother John Dalmahoy, in/of Leith as late as 24 Jul 1590, were the sons of Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk by his wife Mariot Murray of the Falahill family.
William Dalmahoy, merchant, admitted burgess of Edinburgh in 1591, was likely born in the late 1560s or very early 1570s, so is probably not the same as William Dalmahoy, brother of Alexander of that ilk, indicted/acquitted in 1579. However, he may have been his son. Alternatively, he could have been the son of James Dalmahoy (testament 1588) or the son/grandson of John Dalmahoy of Leith (d. aft. 1590). I suspect Kelsey is right that the relationship between Sir John of that ilk and James, son of William, was probably more distant than uncle/nephew, so I'm inclined to rule out for now the possibility that William Dalmahoy, merchant, burgess, was a son of Alexander of that ilk and brother of Sir John of that ilk and Thomas of Birksneip/Watterstoun.
When I stated that James Dalmahoy appeared in documents from February 1577/8 I was mistaken. After reviewing my notes, I see the correct date should have been February 1587/8, the date of the testament you mentioned.
Reviewing my notes, I also see that Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk and James Dalmahoy had another brother, William Dalmahoy:
"On the 10th of July, 1579, the Laird of Dalmahoy [Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk], William Dalmahoy his brother, John Dalmahoy his uncle, and five others, were indicted for besieging the house of Warriston, in June 1578, then in the occupation of William Somerville, and were acquitted."
(books.google.com/books?id=pXxJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5)
Whether this William Dalmahoy was born of his father's first marriage (aft. 1536) to Janet Cleland of that ilk or his second marriage (1556) to Helen Monypenny of the Pitmilly family is unclear. However, James Dalmahoy is referred to as "brother-german to Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk" in his testamentary documents, so his mother was definitely Janet Cleland.
John Dalmahoy, the uncle of Alexander, James, and William, is the brother of their father William Dalmahoy of that ilk. William Dalmahoy of that ilk and his brother John Dalmahoy, in/of Leith as late as 24 Jul 1590, were the sons of Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk by his wife Mariot Murray of the Falahill family.
William Dalmahoy, merchant, admitted burgess of Edinburgh in 1591, was likely born in the late 1560s or very early 1570s, so is probably not the same as William Dalmahoy, brother of Alexander of that ilk, indicted/acquitted in 1579. However, he may have been his son. Alternatively, he could have been the son of James Dalmahoy (testament 1588) or the son/grandson of John Dalmahoy of Leith (d. aft. 1590). I suspect Kelsey is right that the relationship between Sir John of that ilk and James, son of William, was probably more distant than uncle/nephew, so I'm inclined to rule out for now the possibility that William Dalmahoy, merchant, burgess, was a son of Alexander of that ilk and brother of Sir John of that ilk and Thomas of Birksneip/Watterstoun.
Steve Wilson
Apr 7, 2014, 5:25:36 PM4/7/14
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Alex, thanks for the all of the information. If 'House of Hamilton' is correct in identifying the father of Helen Dalmahoy, wife of John Hamilton of Haggs, as Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk (and I'm inclined to think that it is), then Helen cannot have been the same person as Helen Dalmahoy, daughter of William Dalmahoy, merchant, burgess, and sister of James Dalmahoy from the 1620s legal proceedings.
I hadn't had a good handle on Helen's chronology until I read your posting. Given the 1605/6 date of her marriage to John Hamilton of Haggs, I agree that she would have to have been born of Alexander Dalmahoy's second marriage to Agnes Heriot of the Trabroun family, rather than his first marriage to Agnes Hamilton of the Finnart family.
Alexander Hamilton of Haggs was retoured heir to his father on 15 Mar 1617. In his testament, written Oct 1642, Alexander names wife Jean Maxwell and eldest son Alexander (he also had a younger son Patrick, who was probably born after the testament was written but prior to Alexander's death in Oct 1649). He appoints his brothers James and Alexander [Knox] as curators for his son, so they must have been of age at that time, placing their births after John Hamilton's death in 1617, but before 1621. Therefore, Helen Dalmahoy must have remarried to Alexander Knox of Silvieland very soon after John Hamilton's death, probably about 1618.
All of this is consistent with the Knox brothers being admitted burgesses of Glasgow in 1655 and 1656, also the probably years of their respective marriages (James Knox to Margaret Millar in 1655, Alexander Knox to Jean Govan in 1656).
When Helen Dalmahoy's testament was registered on 11 Aug 1642 she is called "spouse of Alexander Knox, of Salvieland, burgh of Glasgow," so her second husband was still alive at that point.
I'm a bit confused when you mention the existence of two Sir John Dalmahoys. I had been under the impression that there was only one Sir John active in the late 1500s/early 1600s -- he being the son of Alexander of that ilk and having married in his 40s or 50s to Barbara Lindsay of the Lochhill family. Their son and heir Alexander Dalmahoy was baptized 4 Mar 1612 at South Leith and their eldest daughter Barbara married William Scott of Clerkington probably ca. 1637. This all seems to fit with what is stated in the 'Family of Dalmahoy of Dalmahoy...' book. Am I mistaken?
I hadn't had a good handle on Helen's chronology until I read your posting. Given the 1605/6 date of her marriage to John Hamilton of Haggs, I agree that she would have to have been born of Alexander Dalmahoy's second marriage to Agnes Heriot of the Trabroun family, rather than his first marriage to Agnes Hamilton of the Finnart family.
Alexander Hamilton of Haggs was retoured heir to his father on 15 Mar 1617. In his testament, written Oct 1642, Alexander names wife Jean Maxwell and eldest son Alexander (he also had a younger son Patrick, who was probably born after the testament was written but prior to Alexander's death in Oct 1649). He appoints his brothers James and Alexander [Knox] as curators for his son, so they must have been of age at that time, placing their births after John Hamilton's death in 1617, but before 1621. Therefore, Helen Dalmahoy must have remarried to Alexander Knox of Silvieland very soon after John Hamilton's death, probably about 1618.
All of this is consistent with the Knox brothers being admitted burgesses of Glasgow in 1655 and 1656, also the probably years of their respective marriages (James Knox to Margaret Millar in 1655, Alexander Knox to Jean Govan in 1656).
When Helen Dalmahoy's testament was registered on 11 Aug 1642 she is called "spouse of Alexander Knox, of Salvieland, burgh of Glasgow," so her second husband was still alive at that point.
I'm a bit confused when you mention the existence of two Sir John Dalmahoys. I had been under the impression that there was only one Sir John active in the late 1500s/early 1600s -- he being the son of Alexander of that ilk and having married in his 40s or 50s to Barbara Lindsay of the Lochhill family. Their son and heir Alexander Dalmahoy was baptized 4 Mar 1612 at South Leith and their eldest daughter Barbara married William Scott of Clerkington probably ca. 1637. This all seems to fit with what is stated in the 'Family of Dalmahoy of Dalmahoy...' book. Am I mistaken?
Steve Wilson
Apr 7, 2014, 7:34:24 PM4/7/14
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On Monday, April 7, 2014 11:55:45 AM UTC-4, Alex Maxwell Findlater wrote:
> Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk, whom I date ca 1537-1601
Would he be identical with Alexander Dalmahoy of that ilk whose testament was recorded in the Edinburgh commissariot on 28 Aug 1617?
> Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk, whom I date ca 1537-1601
> Sir John (ca 1560-aft 1636)
Steve Wilson
Apr 7, 2014, 10:48:07 PM4/7/14
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On Monday, April 7, 2014 5:45:14 AM UTC-4, Kelsey Jackson Williams wrote:
> Have you chased up the Kers of Yair to see if that might shed more light on the Dalmahoys?
Details on the Kers of Yair are sketchy, though I've pieced together the following outline which should be, for the most part, correct:
> Have you chased up the Kers of Yair to see if that might shed more light on the Dalmahoys?
Andrew Ker of Cessford (d. aft. 8 May 1481) m. ? Douglas of Cavers.
His (sixth?) son was William Ker of Yair (d. ca. 1523)
His eldest son was William Ker (dvp, probably at Flodden)
His heir was Thomas Ker of Yair (d. ca. 1570)
His heir was William Ker of Yair (d. ca. 1579), who had a brother James Ker (d. aft. 3 Mar 1585)
His heir was the Andrew Ker of Yair (uncle of the murdered James Dalmahoy).
He had four sons: William, Andrew, Robert, and Thomas.
William, the eldest, was succeeded in the lands of Yair by his son Andrew.
The Kers of Yair were active in the affairs of Selkirk in the mid-1500s, appearing several times in the Selkirk protocol books (books.google.com/books?id=lMKRAAAAMAAJ - snippet view only).
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Apr 8, 2014, 2:03:53 AM4/8/14
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Although the date of registration of the testaments can be much later than the death, they tended to be quite soon after it, so those two dates for John and Barbara could be close to their deaths, although they would have been long livers for the times. It would be worth checking the testaments for the date of death, which is usually given.
Sorry for the confusion.
Steve Wilson
Apr 8, 2014, 6:30:02 PM4/8/14
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According to the 'Dalmahoy of Dalmahoy' book (books.google.com/books?id=pXxJAAAAYAAJ), Sir John Dalmahoy was the son of the first marriage:
"11. ALEXANDER DALMAHOY, of Dalmahoy. He married Agnes, daughter of Sir James Hamilton, of Fynant [sic] [Charter 1557], and had a son by this marriage:
JOHN DALMAHOY.
He married, secondly, Agnes Heriot, a daughter of --- Heriot, of Trabroun, and they had issue:
MARGARET DALMAHOY, who married Robert Fairlie, son and apparent heir of Alexander Fairlie, of Braid [Charter under the great Seal, 1601]"
No authority is cited to support the statement that Sir John Dalmahoy was a son of the first marriage. Given the 1611 date of his first and only marriage, and the 1601 and 1605/6 marriage dates of his sisters from their father's second marriage, I suspect he may have also been born of the second marriage.
The other brother, not mentioned in the Dalmahoy book, Thomas Dalmahoy of Birksneip/Watterstoun, appears in charters of 1 Mar 1621 and 1 Mar 1643. As I can find no earlier record of him, I wonder if he isn't also a son of his father's second marriage.
As far as the Lindsays of Lochhill are concerned, I show Sir Bernard Lindsay as the eldest son of Thomas Lindsay in Leith who died sometime between 15 Oct 1594, when he was Snawdoun Herald at the Court of the Lord Lyon, and 6 Jul 1607, when his daughters were provided a pension by the Crown. Thomas Lindsay also had sons Thomas (who apparently died in the 1580s) and Robert (who married Janet Acheson and settled in Loughry, County Tyrone), as well as daughters Agnes and Elizabeth.
Sir Bernard's son Lt. Col. Bernard (b. 1603) married Rachel Lindsay, the daughter of Sir Jerome Lindsay of Annatland and Agnes Lindsay. Sir Jerome was the son of David Lindsay, Bishop of Ross, and grandson of Alexander Lindsay of the Edzell/Crawford family. Agnes Lindsay was the daughter of Sir David Lindsay of the Mount, descended from the Byres family. Sir Jerome and Sir David Lindsay were both Lyon Kings. I have seen suggestions that Thomas Lindsay was the younger brother of David, Bishop of Ross, or, alternatively, descended from the Lindsays of the Mount -- neither of which have any concrete evidence to back them up.
"11. ALEXANDER DALMAHOY, of Dalmahoy. He married Agnes, daughter of Sir James Hamilton, of Fynant [sic] [Charter 1557], and had a son by this marriage:
JOHN DALMAHOY.
He married, secondly, Agnes Heriot, a daughter of --- Heriot, of Trabroun, and they had issue:
MARGARET DALMAHOY, who married Robert Fairlie, son and apparent heir of Alexander Fairlie, of Braid [Charter under the great Seal, 1601]"
No authority is cited to support the statement that Sir John Dalmahoy was a son of the first marriage. Given the 1611 date of his first and only marriage, and the 1601 and 1605/6 marriage dates of his sisters from their father's second marriage, I suspect he may have also been born of the second marriage.
The other brother, not mentioned in the Dalmahoy book, Thomas Dalmahoy of Birksneip/Watterstoun, appears in charters of 1 Mar 1621 and 1 Mar 1643. As I can find no earlier record of him, I wonder if he isn't also a son of his father's second marriage.
As far as the Lindsays of Lochhill are concerned, I show Sir Bernard Lindsay as the eldest son of Thomas Lindsay in Leith who died sometime between 15 Oct 1594, when he was Snawdoun Herald at the Court of the Lord Lyon, and 6 Jul 1607, when his daughters were provided a pension by the Crown. Thomas Lindsay also had sons Thomas (who apparently died in the 1580s) and Robert (who married Janet Acheson and settled in Loughry, County Tyrone), as well as daughters Agnes and Elizabeth.
Sir Bernard's son Lt. Col. Bernard (b. 1603) married Rachel Lindsay, the daughter of Sir Jerome Lindsay of Annatland and Agnes Lindsay. Sir Jerome was the son of David Lindsay, Bishop of Ross, and grandson of Alexander Lindsay of the Edzell/Crawford family. Agnes Lindsay was the daughter of Sir David Lindsay of the Mount, descended from the Byres family. Sir Jerome and Sir David Lindsay were both Lyon Kings. I have seen suggestions that Thomas Lindsay was the younger brother of David, Bishop of Ross, or, alternatively, descended from the Lindsays of the Mount -- neither of which have any concrete evidence to back them up.
Steve Wilson
Apr 8, 2014, 7:26:02 PM4/8/14
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I should also mention that Thomas Dalmahoy of Birksneip is called "brother-german of Sir John Dalmahoy of that Ilk" in the charters of 1 Mar 1641, meaning that they were both born of the same marriage.
In that light, it would seem most probable that all four children (Sir John, Thomas, Margaret, and Helen) were born of the second marriage to Agnes Heriot and that the first marriage to Agnes Hamilton was either childless or produced no children surviving to adulthood.
In that light, it would seem most probable that all four children (Sir John, Thomas, Margaret, and Helen) were born of the second marriage to Agnes Heriot and that the first marriage to Agnes Hamilton was either childless or produced no children surviving to adulthood.
Louise Gibson
Apr 9, 2014, 4:25:41 AM4/9/14
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, Steve Wilson
I agree that the four children were most probably the children of the second marriage, but
it is only my supposition.
Given that Sir John was the elder of the two brothers, and that he died in early 1653, as
his testament is dated 18th June 1653, and that his father Sir Alexander's marriage
contract with Agnes Hamilton is dated 1557; the time between this marriage contract and
Sir John's death is 96 years. Not an impossible age, but a highly improbable age for a man
of the mid 1600's to achieve.
Louise Gibson
Steve Wilson
Apr 9, 2014, 3:40:18 PM4/9/14
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In trying to date the Dalmahoy-Heriot marriage, I came across the following:
"Thomas [Fawside of that Ilk] again became surety for the entry of James Heriot of Trabroun as also for the giving up of his house if charged to do so under a penalty of 1000 Scots. [...] In 1579 he became surety for Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk who is accused of having besieged the house of Somerville. [...] In 1583 Robert younger of Fawside son of Thomas Fawside guaranteed that Sir Wm Lauder of Hatton and others should be free and skaithless from James Heriot of Trabroun."
(books.google.com/books?id=nx4nAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA375)
Thomas Fawside of that Ilk married Margaret Heriot of Trabroun sometime before 14 Oct 1552. This Margaret Heriot was the daughter of James Heriot of Trabroun by Janet Cockburn of Ormiston and apparently the elder sister of Agnes Heriot, the second wife of Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk. Given that Thomas Fawside acted as surety for Alexander Dalmahoy in 1579 (10 Jul - the specific date of the indictment/acquittal), I would suppose that Alexander Dalmahoy had married Agnes Heriot prior to that date.
The first mention I find of Sir John Dalmahoy as an adult is in 1598 (books.google.com/books?id=HnAhAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA198), so assuming an approximate birth year of 1577 and keeping in mind that Alexander Dalmahoy and Agnes Heriot were very likely married before 1579, the evidence would seem to strongly suggest that all of Alexander Dalmahoy's adult children were by his second wife.
"Thomas [Fawside of that Ilk] again became surety for the entry of James Heriot of Trabroun as also for the giving up of his house if charged to do so under a penalty of 1000 Scots. [...] In 1579 he became surety for Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk who is accused of having besieged the house of Somerville. [...] In 1583 Robert younger of Fawside son of Thomas Fawside guaranteed that Sir Wm Lauder of Hatton and others should be free and skaithless from James Heriot of Trabroun."
(books.google.com/books?id=nx4nAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA375)
Thomas Fawside of that Ilk married Margaret Heriot of Trabroun sometime before 14 Oct 1552. This Margaret Heriot was the daughter of James Heriot of Trabroun by Janet Cockburn of Ormiston and apparently the elder sister of Agnes Heriot, the second wife of Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk. Given that Thomas Fawside acted as surety for Alexander Dalmahoy in 1579 (10 Jul - the specific date of the indictment/acquittal), I would suppose that Alexander Dalmahoy had married Agnes Heriot prior to that date.
The first mention I find of Sir John Dalmahoy as an adult is in 1598 (books.google.com/books?id=HnAhAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA198), so assuming an approximate birth year of 1577 and keeping in mind that Alexander Dalmahoy and Agnes Heriot were very likely married before 1579, the evidence would seem to strongly suggest that all of Alexander Dalmahoy's adult children were by his second wife.
Steve Wilson
Apr 12, 2014, 2:31:32 PM4/12/14
to
In reviewing the Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, I've come across two more sons of Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk, also presumably children by the second marriage to Agnes Heriot:
1) Alexander Dalmahoy, who acted as a witness to a charter, dated 4 Jan 1609/10 and confirmed 14 May 1610, by which George, Archbishop of Saint Andrews released lands in the barony of Liston, Linlithgowshire to Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk and Sir John Dalmahoy, his son and apparent heir. Alexander Dalmahoy, son of Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk is referred to as "Alex. Dalmahey filio legitimo dicti Alex. D. de eodem."
2) James Dalmahoy, who acted as a witness to a charter, dated 24 May 1610 and confirmed 29 May 1610, by which Sir Robert Fairlie of Braid and Lady Margaret Dalmamhoy, his wife, sold lands to Patrick Eleis Sr., merchant burgess of Edinburgh. James Dalmahoy, son of Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk is referred to as "Jac. Dalmahoy filio legitimo Alexandri D. de eodem."
Assuming ages of at least 21 years for each son when acting as witnesses, they both would have to have been born in 1589 at the latest.
This brings the count of known children of Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk to six:
1) Sir John Dalmahoy of that Ilk, married in 1611 to Barbara Lindsay of Lochhill, and dead by 18 Jun 1653, when his testament was registered in the Edinburgh commissariot
2) Alexander Dalmahoy, witness to the charter of 4 Jan 1609/10
3) James Dalmahoy, witness to the charter of 24 May 1610
4) Margaret Dalmahoy, married in Dec 1601 or Jan 1602 to Sir Robert Fairlie of Braid and living 2 Aug 1631
5) Thomas Dalmahoy of Birksneip and Watterstoun, living 1 Mar 1642/3
6) Helen Dalmahoy, married first to John Hamilton of Haggs in Dec 1605 or Jan 1606 and second to Alexander Knox of Silvieland, dead by 11 Aug 1642, when her testament was registered in the Glasgow commissariot
1) Alexander Dalmahoy, who acted as a witness to a charter, dated 4 Jan 1609/10 and confirmed 14 May 1610, by which George, Archbishop of Saint Andrews released lands in the barony of Liston, Linlithgowshire to Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk and Sir John Dalmahoy, his son and apparent heir. Alexander Dalmahoy, son of Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk is referred to as "Alex. Dalmahey filio legitimo dicti Alex. D. de eodem."
2) James Dalmahoy, who acted as a witness to a charter, dated 24 May 1610 and confirmed 29 May 1610, by which Sir Robert Fairlie of Braid and Lady Margaret Dalmamhoy, his wife, sold lands to Patrick Eleis Sr., merchant burgess of Edinburgh. James Dalmahoy, son of Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk is referred to as "Jac. Dalmahoy filio legitimo Alexandri D. de eodem."
Assuming ages of at least 21 years for each son when acting as witnesses, they both would have to have been born in 1589 at the latest.
This brings the count of known children of Alexander Dalmahoy of that Ilk to six:
1) Sir John Dalmahoy of that Ilk, married in 1611 to Barbara Lindsay of Lochhill, and dead by 18 Jun 1653, when his testament was registered in the Edinburgh commissariot
2) Alexander Dalmahoy, witness to the charter of 4 Jan 1609/10
3) James Dalmahoy, witness to the charter of 24 May 1610
4) Margaret Dalmahoy, married in Dec 1601 or Jan 1602 to Sir Robert Fairlie of Braid and living 2 Aug 1631
5) Thomas Dalmahoy of Birksneip and Watterstoun, living 1 Mar 1642/3
6) Helen Dalmahoy, married first to John Hamilton of Haggs in Dec 1605 or Jan 1606 and second to Alexander Knox of Silvieland, dead by 11 Aug 1642, when her testament was registered in the Glasgow commissariot
Louise Gibson
Apr 15, 2014, 8:25:28 PM4/15/14
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, jhigg...@yahoo.com
> Subject:OT - Two More Edward III Descents for Alison Perkins Trappes-Lomax
> From:jhigg...@yahoo.com
> Date: 9/04/2014 9:02 AM
>
> Expanding upon Brad's lengthy list, I can provide two additional Edward III descents for Alison Trappes-Lomax - both through her mother Marjory Emily Morse, for whom no such descents had previously been noted.
>
> John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset [V2 in Bard's part 2 post] and his wife Margaret Holand had a daughter MM3
> MM3. Joan Beaufort (d. 15.VII.1445); m. (1) James I, K. of Scotland (before 1.VIII.1394-21.II.1437)
> MM4. James II, K. of Scotland (16.X.1430-3.VIII.1460); m. 2.VII.1449 Marie of Geldern
> MM5. Mary Stewart (b. 1451, d. V.1488); m. (2) before IV.1474 (his 2nd) James Hamilton, 1st Lord Hamilton (d. 16.XI.1479)
> MM6. Elizabeth Hamilton (d. after IV.1531); m. contract 9.IV.1494 (his 2nd) Matthew Stuart, 11th Earl of Lennox (d. 9.IX.1513)
> MM7. Margaret Stewart; m. (1) before 13.II.1508/9 (his 2nd of 3) (div. before 25.X.1515) John Fleming, 2nd Lord Fleming (d. 1.XI.1524)
> MM8. Margaret Fleming; m. ca. 24.XI.1529 (his 1st of 3) Patrick Murray of Falahill, Laird of Philiphaugh (d. 1577)
> MM9. Katherine Murray (b. after 1529, d. after 22.V.1594); m. 1552 (his 2nd) James Somerville, 3rd of Cambusnethan (b. ca. 1520, d. 1594)
> MM10. Nicholas/Nicola Somerville; m. contract 13.IV.1582 Walter Stewart, 1st Lord Blantyre (d. 8.III.1617)
> MM11. William Stewart, 2nd Lord Blantyre (d. 29.XI.1638); m. Helen Scott of Ardross [see NN12 below]
> MM12. Margaret Stewart (d. 1662); m. contract XII.1644/I.1645 (his 1st) John Swinton, 23rd of that Ilk (d. 1679)
> MM13. John Swinton, 25th of that Ilk (d. 1723); m. (1) Sarah Welch of London
> MM14. Frances Swinton; m. Rev. Henry Veitch, minister of Swinton, Berwickshire
> MM15. John Veitch; m. Elizabeth Gardiner [or Gardener]
> MM16. Hugh Veitch of Stewartfield; m. Mary Robertson of Prenderguest (b. 4.X.1786, d. 11.X.1870)
> MM17. Rachel Mackerras Veitch (b. 29.II.1820, d. 21.III.1879); m. 20.VIII.1839 John Haig of Cameron Bridge ***
> MM18. William Henry Haig of Cameron Bridge (b. 3.II.1842, d. 5.VII.1884); m. 6.VI.1871 Emily Martha Newman (d. 17.III.1929)
> MM19. Annabel Marjory Haig (d. 30.VII.1955); m. 14.IX.1898 Arthur Francis Morse (b. 10.IV.1872, d. 4.V.1959)
> MM20. Marjory Emily Morse (b. 21.I.1900); m. 10.IX.1924 George Algernon Perkins of Bure House, Lamas, Norfolk
> MM21. Alison Marjorie Gundrede Perkins (b. 8.VIII.1926); m. 25.XI.1952 Stephen Richard Trappes-Lomax
>
> *** The youngest child of the couple at MM17 was Field-Marshall Sir Douglas Haig, 1st Earl Haig - the controversial British commander in WWI.
>
> NN10. Helen Somerville of Cambusnethan; m. 1577 Sir John Skene of Curriehill (d. 1617)
> NN11. Jean Skene of Curriehill; m. (his 3rd) Sir William Scott of Ardross (d. 1628 aged 82)
> NN12. Helen Scott of Ardross; m. William Stewart, 2nd Lord Blantyre [see MM11 above]
John
I have a question regarding the line MM9: surely you mean John, not James Somerville the
3rd of Cambusnethan ?
And do you have a source for the marriage date of 1552 of John Somerville and Katherine
Murray. I ask, as the date of 1552 for their marriage pushes back the death date of
Katherine Carmichael, the 1st wife of John Somerville, 3rd of Cambusnethan. I have only
been able to find a suggested death date for Katherine Carmichael of about 1555, but this
marriage date changes that ?
Louise Gibson
Burnie
Tasmania in OZ
> From:jhigg...@yahoo.com
> Date: 9/04/2014 9:02 AM
>
> Expanding upon Brad's lengthy list, I can provide two additional Edward III descents for Alison Trappes-Lomax - both through her mother Marjory Emily Morse, for whom no such descents had previously been noted.
>
> John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset [V2 in Bard's part 2 post] and his wife Margaret Holand had a daughter MM3
> MM3. Joan Beaufort (d. 15.VII.1445); m. (1) James I, K. of Scotland (before 1.VIII.1394-21.II.1437)
> MM4. James II, K. of Scotland (16.X.1430-3.VIII.1460); m. 2.VII.1449 Marie of Geldern
> MM5. Mary Stewart (b. 1451, d. V.1488); m. (2) before IV.1474 (his 2nd) James Hamilton, 1st Lord Hamilton (d. 16.XI.1479)
> MM6. Elizabeth Hamilton (d. after IV.1531); m. contract 9.IV.1494 (his 2nd) Matthew Stuart, 11th Earl of Lennox (d. 9.IX.1513)
> MM7. Margaret Stewart; m. (1) before 13.II.1508/9 (his 2nd of 3) (div. before 25.X.1515) John Fleming, 2nd Lord Fleming (d. 1.XI.1524)
> MM8. Margaret Fleming; m. ca. 24.XI.1529 (his 1st of 3) Patrick Murray of Falahill, Laird of Philiphaugh (d. 1577)
> MM9. Katherine Murray (b. after 1529, d. after 22.V.1594); m. 1552 (his 2nd) James Somerville, 3rd of Cambusnethan (b. ca. 1520, d. 1594)
> MM10. Nicholas/Nicola Somerville; m. contract 13.IV.1582 Walter Stewart, 1st Lord Blantyre (d. 8.III.1617)
> MM11. William Stewart, 2nd Lord Blantyre (d. 29.XI.1638); m. Helen Scott of Ardross [see NN12 below]
> MM12. Margaret Stewart (d. 1662); m. contract XII.1644/I.1645 (his 1st) John Swinton, 23rd of that Ilk (d. 1679)
> MM13. John Swinton, 25th of that Ilk (d. 1723); m. (1) Sarah Welch of London
> MM14. Frances Swinton; m. Rev. Henry Veitch, minister of Swinton, Berwickshire
> MM15. John Veitch; m. Elizabeth Gardiner [or Gardener]
> MM16. Hugh Veitch of Stewartfield; m. Mary Robertson of Prenderguest (b. 4.X.1786, d. 11.X.1870)
> MM17. Rachel Mackerras Veitch (b. 29.II.1820, d. 21.III.1879); m. 20.VIII.1839 John Haig of Cameron Bridge ***
> MM18. William Henry Haig of Cameron Bridge (b. 3.II.1842, d. 5.VII.1884); m. 6.VI.1871 Emily Martha Newman (d. 17.III.1929)
> MM19. Annabel Marjory Haig (d. 30.VII.1955); m. 14.IX.1898 Arthur Francis Morse (b. 10.IV.1872, d. 4.V.1959)
> MM20. Marjory Emily Morse (b. 21.I.1900); m. 10.IX.1924 George Algernon Perkins of Bure House, Lamas, Norfolk
> MM21. Alison Marjorie Gundrede Perkins (b. 8.VIII.1926); m. 25.XI.1952 Stephen Richard Trappes-Lomax
>
> *** The youngest child of the couple at MM17 was Field-Marshall Sir Douglas Haig, 1st Earl Haig - the controversial British commander in WWI.
>
> NN10. Helen Somerville of Cambusnethan; m. 1577 Sir John Skene of Curriehill (d. 1617)
> NN11. Jean Skene of Curriehill; m. (his 3rd) Sir William Scott of Ardross (d. 1628 aged 82)
> NN12. Helen Scott of Ardross; m. William Stewart, 2nd Lord Blantyre [see MM11 above]
John
I have a question regarding the line MM9: surely you mean John, not James Somerville the
3rd of Cambusnethan ?
And do you have a source for the marriage date of 1552 of John Somerville and Katherine
Murray. I ask, as the date of 1552 for their marriage pushes back the death date of
Katherine Carmichael, the 1st wife of John Somerville, 3rd of Cambusnethan. I have only
been able to find a suggested death date for Katherine Carmichael of about 1555, but this
marriage date changes that ?
Louise Gibson
Burnie
Tasmania in OZ
Louise Gibson
Apr 16, 2014, 12:11:07 AM4/16/14
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, jhigg...@yahoo.com
Would someone on the list be prepared to transcribed the Testament of Katherine
Carmichael, mistress of James V, and spouse of John Somerville, 3rd of Cambusnethan please ?
It does not occupy a full A4 page, but my transcribing skills for this time frame are very
very limited. I will happily send a copy which I now have.
Katherine Carmichael's Testament is dated the 1st of October 1552, thus she died earlier
in 1552. John had a date for a second marriage of John Somerville to Katherine Murray of
Philiphaugh, as being in 1552, [within the Edward III descents for Alison Trappes-Lomax],
and this is now a possibility.
Somerville:"Memorie of the Somervilles", Vol 1, p 388 records Katherine Carmichael's
Testament date as the 10th of March 1550, and states she died in 1550.
Carmichael, mistress of James V, and spouse of John Somerville, 3rd of Cambusnethan please ?
It does not occupy a full A4 page, but my transcribing skills for this time frame are very
very limited. I will happily send a copy which I now have.
Katherine Carmichael's Testament is dated the 1st of October 1552, thus she died earlier
in 1552. John had a date for a second marriage of John Somerville to Katherine Murray of
Philiphaugh, as being in 1552, [within the Edward III descents for Alison Trappes-Lomax],
and this is now a possibility.
Somerville:"Memorie of the Somervilles", Vol 1, p 388 records Katherine Carmichael's
Testament date as the 10th of March 1550, and states she died in 1550.
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Apr 17, 2014, 8:10:32 PM4/17/14
to
A footnote in the Scherer article notes that a traditional source on the Somervilles, Sir Walter Scott's "Memorie of the Somervilles", is inconsistent in naming the 3rd laird of Cambesnethan, but it settles on James - perhaps following the CP reference noted above. OTOH SP 2:83 sub Blantyre calls him John, not James, Somerville - citing Scott's work.
Douglas Richardson
Apr 18, 2014, 1:47:27 AM4/18/14
to
Dear Louise ~
You're quite correct. The name of Katherine Murray's husband was John Somerville, not James Somerville.
For evidence that the correct name is John, not James, Somerville, please see Somerville, Baronial House of Somerville (1920): 86-90, where the career, marriages, and children of John Somerville, 3rd Baron of Cambusnethan (died 1593), are fully discussed. The author identifies his second wife as Katherine Murray.
On page 89, it is specifically stated that the second daughter of John Somerville and Katherine Murray married "the Laird of Dunlop." This would be Jean Somerville, who married James Dunlop, of Dunlop, which couple are ancestral to the New World immigrant, Archibald Dunlop, of Connecticut.
Below are four records from the online catalogue of the National Archives of Scotland which provide further evidence that John Somerville, of Cambusbethan, married Katherine Murray.
1. GD8/168 Charter by John Somervell of Cambusnethan to John Somervell, his son, procreate, between him and Katherine Murray, his spouse, of the lands of Quiodquen. Date: 1560.
2. GD8/310 Contract between John Somerville of Cambusnethan, and Katherine Murray, his spouse, on the one part and John Somerville, their son, on the other part, whereby the said John Somerville younger, binds himself that he shall not appoint, transact nor agree with James Somerville, eldest son to the said John Somerville, of Cambusnethan towards the disposition of the lands and barony of Cambusnethan, in favour of the said James, without the special consent of his father. Date: 1581.
3. GD40/4/146 Precept of sasine under the Quarter Seal in favour of Hugh, Lord Somervell, in respect of the lands of Gilmertoun, Drum and Gutteris, following on decree of declarator of redemption against John Somervell of Cambusnethem, Katherine Murray, his spouse, James Somervell younger of Cambusnethem and Margaret Hammiltoun, his spouse, and John Somervell, son of said John and Katherine. Date: 12 May 1578.
4. GD40/4/158 Copy of letters of horning at the instance of Hugh, Lord Somervell, against Katherine Murray, relict of John Somervell of Cambusnethane, John Somervell, their eldest son, and James Somervell now of Cambusnethane in terms of a decree of redemption of part of the lands of Gilmertoun dated 18 Dec. 1577. Date: 22 May 1594.
Offlist I contacted John Scherer who published information about this couple in his article on the Dunlop family published in New England Hist. Gen. Reg., Vol. 152 (1998): 186-196, and Vol. 154 (2000): 321-324. His reply to me regarding the correct name of Katherine Murray's husband is copied below:
"You are absolutely correct. I checked my sources and they all indicate [the correct name is] John Somerville, except for a genealogy chart in the Garnkirk papers that gives the name as James. The chart is not a contemporary chart but one that was compiled by someone at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow to show relationships among family members. Somehow, perhaps because of the chart, I mistakenly used James rather than John [in my article]. Both A System of Heraldry by Alexander Nisbet, 1816, Vol. II, pp. 277-278, and the Memorie of The Somervilles, 1815, Vol. II, p. 19 indicate that John Sommerville, third of Cambusnethan married 2nd Katherine Murray and that their daughter Jeanne married James Dunlop. Thank you for bringing this error to my attention. It should definitely be John rather than James. I also appreciate the new sources that you found." END OF QUOTE.
For interest's sake, I've copied below my file account of Katherine Murray and John Somerville.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
KATHERINE MURRAY. She was a legatee in the 1547 will of her uncle, Malcolm Fleming, 3rd Lord Fleming, who bequeathed her £100 for her marriage. She married at Crichton Castle in 1552 (as his 2nd wife) JOHN SOMERVILLE, of Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire, son and heir of John Somerville, of Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire, by Margaret, daughter William Graham, 1st Earl of Montrose. They had three sons, John Patrick (of Green and Patherhall), William, and Thomas [Cardinal of Padua], and four daughters, Helen (wife of John Skene, Knt., of Curriehill, Clerk Register), Jean (wife of James Dunlop), Margaret (wife of Adam Whiteford, of Milton), and Nichola (wife of Walter Stewart, of Blantyre). In 1567 James, Earl of Bothwell, granted John and his 2nd wife, Katherine, and John their son the lands of Kingildurris, alias Chapel Kingildurris, in the sheriffdom of Peebles. He previously married (1st) in 1537 KATHERINE CARMICHAEL, former mistress of James V, King of Scots, and daughter of John Carmichael, Knt., of Meadowflat, Lanarkshire, Captain of Crawford Castle. They had two sons, James and Robert, and one daughter, _____ (wife of Gawin Hamilton). On 4 October 1539 the king confirmed the lands and barony of Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire to John and his 1st wife, Katherine. JOHN SOMERVILLE died in 1593.
References:
Irving, Upper Ward of Lanarkshire 1 (1864): 469-471. Reg. of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1513-1546 (1883): 455. Skene, Memorials of the Fam. of Skene of Skene (1887): 106-113. Scots Peerage 1 (1904): 23-25 (sub Kings of Scotland); 2 (1905): 160-161 (sub Hepburn, Earl of Bothwell), 168-170 (Stewart, Earl of Bothwell). Dunbar, Scottish Kings (1906): 239. Report on MSS in Various Colls. 5 (1909): 15 (charter of James, Earl of Bothwell dated 1567). Somerville, Baronial House of Somerville (1920): 86-90. National Archives of Scotland, GD8/310; GD8/168; GD40/4/136; GD40/4/146; GD40/4/158.
You're quite correct. The name of Katherine Murray's husband was John Somerville, not James Somerville.
For evidence that the correct name is John, not James, Somerville, please see Somerville, Baronial House of Somerville (1920): 86-90, where the career, marriages, and children of John Somerville, 3rd Baron of Cambusnethan (died 1593), are fully discussed. The author identifies his second wife as Katherine Murray.
On page 89, it is specifically stated that the second daughter of John Somerville and Katherine Murray married "the Laird of Dunlop." This would be Jean Somerville, who married James Dunlop, of Dunlop, which couple are ancestral to the New World immigrant, Archibald Dunlop, of Connecticut.
Below are four records from the online catalogue of the National Archives of Scotland which provide further evidence that John Somerville, of Cambusbethan, married Katherine Murray.
1. GD8/168 Charter by John Somervell of Cambusnethan to John Somervell, his son, procreate, between him and Katherine Murray, his spouse, of the lands of Quiodquen. Date: 1560.
2. GD8/310 Contract between John Somerville of Cambusnethan, and Katherine Murray, his spouse, on the one part and John Somerville, their son, on the other part, whereby the said John Somerville younger, binds himself that he shall not appoint, transact nor agree with James Somerville, eldest son to the said John Somerville, of Cambusnethan towards the disposition of the lands and barony of Cambusnethan, in favour of the said James, without the special consent of his father. Date: 1581.
3. GD40/4/146 Precept of sasine under the Quarter Seal in favour of Hugh, Lord Somervell, in respect of the lands of Gilmertoun, Drum and Gutteris, following on decree of declarator of redemption against John Somervell of Cambusnethem, Katherine Murray, his spouse, James Somervell younger of Cambusnethem and Margaret Hammiltoun, his spouse, and John Somervell, son of said John and Katherine. Date: 12 May 1578.
4. GD40/4/158 Copy of letters of horning at the instance of Hugh, Lord Somervell, against Katherine Murray, relict of John Somervell of Cambusnethane, John Somervell, their eldest son, and James Somervell now of Cambusnethane in terms of a decree of redemption of part of the lands of Gilmertoun dated 18 Dec. 1577. Date: 22 May 1594.
Offlist I contacted John Scherer who published information about this couple in his article on the Dunlop family published in New England Hist. Gen. Reg., Vol. 152 (1998): 186-196, and Vol. 154 (2000): 321-324. His reply to me regarding the correct name of Katherine Murray's husband is copied below:
"You are absolutely correct. I checked my sources and they all indicate [the correct name is] John Somerville, except for a genealogy chart in the Garnkirk papers that gives the name as James. The chart is not a contemporary chart but one that was compiled by someone at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow to show relationships among family members. Somehow, perhaps because of the chart, I mistakenly used James rather than John [in my article]. Both A System of Heraldry by Alexander Nisbet, 1816, Vol. II, pp. 277-278, and the Memorie of The Somervilles, 1815, Vol. II, p. 19 indicate that John Sommerville, third of Cambusnethan married 2nd Katherine Murray and that their daughter Jeanne married James Dunlop. Thank you for bringing this error to my attention. It should definitely be John rather than James. I also appreciate the new sources that you found." END OF QUOTE.
For interest's sake, I've copied below my file account of Katherine Murray and John Somerville.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
KATHERINE MURRAY. She was a legatee in the 1547 will of her uncle, Malcolm Fleming, 3rd Lord Fleming, who bequeathed her £100 for her marriage. She married at Crichton Castle in 1552 (as his 2nd wife) JOHN SOMERVILLE, of Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire, son and heir of John Somerville, of Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire, by Margaret, daughter William Graham, 1st Earl of Montrose. They had three sons, John Patrick (of Green and Patherhall), William, and Thomas [Cardinal of Padua], and four daughters, Helen (wife of John Skene, Knt., of Curriehill, Clerk Register), Jean (wife of James Dunlop), Margaret (wife of Adam Whiteford, of Milton), and Nichola (wife of Walter Stewart, of Blantyre). In 1567 James, Earl of Bothwell, granted John and his 2nd wife, Katherine, and John their son the lands of Kingildurris, alias Chapel Kingildurris, in the sheriffdom of Peebles. He previously married (1st) in 1537 KATHERINE CARMICHAEL, former mistress of James V, King of Scots, and daughter of John Carmichael, Knt., of Meadowflat, Lanarkshire, Captain of Crawford Castle. They had two sons, James and Robert, and one daughter, _____ (wife of Gawin Hamilton). On 4 October 1539 the king confirmed the lands and barony of Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire to John and his 1st wife, Katherine. JOHN SOMERVILLE died in 1593.
References:
Irving, Upper Ward of Lanarkshire 1 (1864): 469-471. Reg. of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1513-1546 (1883): 455. Skene, Memorials of the Fam. of Skene of Skene (1887): 106-113. Scots Peerage 1 (1904): 23-25 (sub Kings of Scotland); 2 (1905): 160-161 (sub Hepburn, Earl of Bothwell), 168-170 (Stewart, Earl of Bothwell). Dunbar, Scottish Kings (1906): 239. Report on MSS in Various Colls. 5 (1909): 15 (charter of James, Earl of Bothwell dated 1567). Somerville, Baronial House of Somerville (1920): 86-90. National Archives of Scotland, GD8/310; GD8/168; GD40/4/136; GD40/4/146; GD40/4/158.
Message has been deleted
Robert
Dec 18, 2023, 11:03:35 AM12/18/23
to
You can type Lindsay under the Heading: People, to retrieve details on 6 Lindsays from the list of over 14,000 settlers.
https://ulster-settlers.clericus.ie/people
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