John Gernon and Alice Colville: how many daughters?

[david...@gmail.com]

Hello,

Both Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley by Waters (p. 186) and Baronia Anglica Concentrata by TC Banks (p. 87) say that John Gernon and his wife Alice had two daughters: Joan, m. John Bottetourt, and Margaret, m. John Peyton.

However, the biography of Sir John Dauntsey at History of Parliament Online says that he was the son of Richard Dauntsey and Katherine, "da. of John Gernon of Steeple Lavington". And that's the right John Gernon; he and Alice had property in Steeple Lavington.

The John Dauntsey bio has the following source for the John Gernon claim:
"JUST 1/1518 m. 4."

I have no idea what that could possibly mean.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, since John Gernon and Alice Colville both have very extensive and well-documented ancestries through their respective grandmothers Eleanor de Vere and Margery de Braose.



Thanks,

David Ditch

[Tompkins]

From: davidaditch via [gen-me...@rootsweb.com]
Sent: 23 August 2015 07:42

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________________________________________

JUST 1/1518 m. 4. is the archival reference of a document in the National Archives (the former Public Record Office).

JUST 1 are the Assize Rolls - the records of assize courts held by royal justices as they travelled around the country.

JUST 1/1518 is the roll of the assizes held in, inter alia, Wiltshire in 5-6 Henry IV - here is the relevant entry in the TNA on-line catalogue:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4294502

JUST 1/1518 m. 4 is membrane 4 on that roll (the fourth sheet of parchment in the roll). An inage of the top half of the recto (or front) side of m. 4 can be seen here:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no1518/aJUST1no1518fronts/IMG_6082.htm

The Dauntsey case begins halfway down and continues in the next image (of the bottom half of the recto side).

It was heard at Salisbury on 22 July 1404 and records an assize of novel disseisin brought by John Dauntsey, knight, against Nicholas Clerk, John Deakne, John Gaweyn and John Foxhangre claiming that they had disseised him of his free tenement in a messuage, a mill, 3 carucates of land, 10 acres of meadow, 5 a. of wood and 100s. rent in Steeple Lavington (either Market Lavington or West Lavington). From the 9th line onwards the jurors' verdict says that John de Segrave granted the property to John Gernon and Alice his wife and the heirs of their bodies, who had issue John and Katherine. After John and Alice died their son and heir John inherited and had issue Elizabeth, who inherited after his death and married John Rycote and had issue John. After he death her husband held by the courtesy of England. Their son John Rycote granted the property (in reversion, after his father's death) to Nicholas Clerk. The father John Rycote then garnted all his interest in the property to Robert de la Mare, knight, who then, while both John Rycotes were still living, surrendered his interest to Nicholas Clerk. Then John Rycote the son died without issue of his body, after which his father died, on which the plaintiff John Dauntsey claimed the property as heir by blood of John Rycote the son, viz as son of John son of Katherine sister of John the father of Elizabeth the mother of John Rycote the son [ie as *grandson* of Katherine Gernon, daughter of John and Alice Gernon - this is in lines 29 and 30].

Matt Tompkins

[al...@mindspring.com]

See also:

'Kidlington: Manors and other estates', A History of the County of Oxford: Volume 12: Wootton Hundred (South) including Woodstock (1990), pp. 188-194. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=10788. Date accessed: 02 March 2008.

Before 1164 Ralph Breton gave Oseney abbey 1 hide in Cote in Kidlington, (fn. 12) but there is no later record of the abbey's holding in the hamlet, and the property may have been absorbed into the main Kidlington manor. In the late 13th century Hugh de Plessis gave his holding in COTE, 7 villein tenements, to his daughter Alice and her husband John Gernun, (fn. 13) but Alice's granddaughters Elizabeth, wife of John Rycote, and Joan, wife of John de Vernon, were unable to make good their claim to the property against Thomas Adderbury, whose uncle, another Thomas Adderbury, was said to have acquired it from John, son of Henry Dimmock. (fn. 14) Cote descended with Kidlington to Thomas Chaucer and his wife Maud, (fn. 15) but later descended with Thrupp, for in 1667 Roger Brent of Thrupp owned 4 yardlands called Cotes farm. Roger Brent's son Roger sold Cotes farm in 1681 to Thomas Bouchier of Oxford (fn. 16) who before 1697 had built up an estate in Kidlington of more than 7 yardlands. It passed to his son James and to James's son Thomas, who in 1757 sold it to Joseph Smith of the Bayley manor. (fn. 17) Smith's son Joseph Bouchier Smith in 1779 devised the estate to trustees who in 1786 sold it to James Morrell. Morrell died in 1807 and was succeeded by his window Ann who held at inclosure and then by his son Baker Morrell and Baker's son F. J. Morrell. Cotes Farm with the whole Kidlington estate acquired from Joseph Bouchier Smith passed to F. J. Morrell's son Baker Morrell, who seems to have sold it in the 1880s. (fn. 18) F. J. Morrell, however, bought other Kidlington lands, notably, in 1854, c. 50 a. allotted to John Wild at inclosure, and this estate passed at his death in 1883 to his son F. P. Morrell (d. 1908) whose executors seem to have sold the property. (fn. 19)

Doug

[Jan Wolfe]

On Sunday, August 23, 2015 at 2:42:49 AM UTC-4, david...@gmail.com wrote:
...

>
> The John Dauntsey bio has the following source for the John Gernon claim:
> "JUST 1/1518 m. 4."
>
> I have no idea what that could possibly mean.
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated, since John Gernon and Alice Colville both have very extensive and well-documented ancestries through their respective grandmothers Eleanor de Vere and Margery de Braose.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> David Ditch

JUST 1 means Rolls of the Justices Itinerant. The images of roll 1518 are on AALT, http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no1518/.

[david...@gmail.com]

Thank you very much!

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear David ~

You appear to have confused two different men named John Gernon, both of whom had a wife, Alice.

The first John Gernon was John Gernon, Knt., of East Thorpe, Essex, Bakewell, Derbyshire, born about 1287/97, died c.1334. He married (1st) Isabel le Bigod. He married (2nd) about 1313 Alice de Coleville. They had one son, John, Knt. He married (3rd) in 1332 Margaret de Wigton. A full account of this family is found in my book, Royal Ancestry (5 volume set), published in 2013.

The second John Gernon, was John Gernon, of Steeple Lavington, Wiltshire. He married by 1302 Alice, daughter of Hugh de Plessis (or Plescy), of Hook Norton and Headington, Oxfordshire, by Isabel, daughter and co-heiress of John Biset. They had one son, John, and one daughter, Katherine (wife of Richard Dauntsey). See VCH Wiltshire 10 (1975): 82-106.

Alice de Plessis (or Plescy) was the sister of Christian de Plessis (or Plescy) (living 1331), wife of John de Segrave, Knt., 2nd Lord Segrave.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[david...@gmail.com]

Douglas,

Thank you for what seems like a very important alteration to the ancestry I had constructed based on Alice Colville, which lines up with the second reply (that I failed to properly understand).

So, to generate the pedigree based on the thread...

Generation 1:
Hugh de Plessis m. Isabel Biset

Generation 2:
John Gernon m. Alice de Plessis; they have John and Katherine

Generation 3:
John Gernon m. ???; they have Elizabeth
Katherine Gernon m. Richard Dauntsey; they have John

Generation 4:
Elizabeth Gernon m. John Rycote; they have John
John Dauntsey MP m. Joan Bavent; they have John

Generation 5:
John Rycote dies without heir
John Dauntsey sues for the land in 1404