Elphinstone and Erskine: SP or CP?
Tim Powys-Lybbe
1906 and 1908, which is avoided in CP volume V published in 1926. My
normal view, in default of anything else is to take the later research.
Anyhow here's the details:
In SP III, p. 532 in the Elphinstone article it states that Alexander,
2nd lord Elphinstone, d. 1547, m. Catherine Erskine dau. of John, 4th
lord Erskine and his wife Isabel, dau. of Sir George Campbell.
But in SP V, pp. 608-9 in the Erskine/Mar article it states that, the
4th lord Erskine, d. 1513 at Flodden, was _Robert_ and he did indeed
marry Isobel, daughter of Sir George Campbell of Loudon, but they did
not have a daughter Catherine.
Over the page in SP V, 609-612, John, 5th lord Erskine, d. aft 1555,
is said to have m. Margaret, eldest dau. of Archibald, 2nd earl of
Argyll and they did have a dau. Catherine who m. in Nov 1525
Alexander 2nd lord Elphinstone.
CP is at least consistent:
In CP V, p. 57, Alexander, 2nd lord Elphinstone, d. 1547 at Pinkie, m.
Katherine da. of Robert (Erskine) 4th lord Erskine and Isabel dau. of
Sir George Campbell.
In CP V, p. 105, Robert, 4th lord Erskine, d. 1513 at Flodden, m.
Isabel, 1st da. of Sir George Campbell of Loudon.
Anyone got any views on who might be right about the father-in-law of
Alexander, 2nd lord Elphinstone? There's no CP corrections on Chris
Phillips' site nor in CP XIV, nor can I find anything in the archives.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
John P. Ravilious
I've not worked closely on these generations of the Erskines, but
my notes give the following two as daughters of Robert, Lord Erskine
(slain at Flodden in 1513) and his wife Isabel Campbell:
1. Catherine Erskine, married (contract date 20 Nov 1525)
Alexander, 2nd Lord Elphinstone.
2. Margaret Erskine, married (contract date 11 July 1527) Sir
Robert Douglas of Lochleven; sometime mistress of King James V of
Scots.
The rough chronology of the Campbells of Loudoun would likely have
Isabel Campbell born no earlier than say 1470, and likely born say 1475
or so. Her son John, Lord Erskine, was likely born no earlier than say
1486/1490, and likely a little later.
The marriage contracts for Catherine Erskine and her sister
Margaret would make for a tight squeeze for either or both to be
daughters of John, Lord Erskine by his wife Margaret Campbell.
However, as Margaret Erskine was a mistress of James V (born 1512) she
may well have been born say 1510/1512 or a bit later - I think
something more solid is needed to rule Margaret (and Catherine) in or
out as children of John Erskine and Margaret Campbell.
Cheers,
John
Tony Ingham
The following should shed some light on the identity of Alexander 2nd
Lord Elphinstone's father-in-law.
Tony Ingham
........................................................
From:
The Elphinstone Family Book of the Lords Elphinstone, Balmerino and Coupar.
by Sir William Fraser. Vol, I – Memoirs. (Edinburgh 1897)
pp. 36-37.
Alexander, First Lord Elphinstone, 1508-1513. Projected marriage with
Margaret Erskine, 1502.
An alliance by marriage was projected between Alexander Elphinstone and
Margaret Erskine, daughter of Robert, Master of Erskine, son and heir
apparent of Alexander, second Lord Erskine. There is no marriage
contract among the Elphinstone muniments. But the terms of the
arrangements for the marriage are given in letters of reversion by
Alexander, Lord Erskine, to John Elphinstone of Airth. . . . . . . .
The reversion, which is dated at Edinburgh, 13th July 1502, has the seal
of Lord Erskine appended to it, and is witnessed by Andrew Elphinstone
of the Selmys, John of Portarfeild of Chapeltoun, and others. (footnote:
Original version in the Elphinstone charter-chest.)
p. 77.
Alexander, Second Lord Elphinstone, 1513-1547. Contract of Marriage
Catherine Erskine, 1525.
Although Lord Elphinstone was still young and under age, he entered into
a contract of marriage with Catherine Erskine, daughter of John, fourth
Lord Erskine. (footnote: Several peerage writers have stated that
Catherine Erskine was daughter of Robert, third Lord Erskine ; but this
is a mistake, as she is explicitly stated to be the daughter of John ,
Lord Erskine, in her marriage contract.) the contract is dated 20th
November 1525, at which time Lord Elphinstone was little more than
fourteen years of age. The matrimonial connection between the Erskine
and Elphinstone families, which had been anxiously contemplated in the
previous generation, as shown in the memoir of the first Lord
Elphinstone, was deferred, according to the wishes of King James the
Fourth and his queen, Margaret Tudor. The connection, however, although
postponed, was not finally renounced by either of the families. It was
now, after a lapse of twenty-three years, brought about in the persons
of the principal parties to this contract. The indenture was made at
Alloa between John, Lord Erskine, and Catherine Erskine, his daughter,
on the one part, and Alexander, Lord Elphinstone, with advice, consent,
and authority of his curators, Robert Calendar and Alexander // end of page.
................................................................
the...@aol.com
Many thanks for that post. That appears to resolve the question, and solidifies some interesting Campbell of Argyll ancestry for descendants of the Elphinstone marriage (Tim ?).
Cheers,
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Ingham <nugg...@hotkey.net.au>
To: John P. Ravilious <the...@aol.com>; Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org>; GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:50:35 +1100
Subject: Re: Elphinstone and Erskine: SP or CP?
For Tim and John,
The following should shed some light on the identity of Alexander 2nd Lord Elphinstone's father-in-law.
Tony Ingham
........................................................
From:
The Elphinstone Family Book of the Lords Elphinstone, Balmerino and Coupar.
by Sir William Fraser. Vol, I ? Memoirs. (Edinburgh 1897)
pp. 36-37.
Alexander, First Lord Elphinstone, 1508-1513. Projected marriage with Margaret Erskine, 1502.
An alliance by marriage was projected between Alexander Elphinstone and Margaret Erskine, daughter of Robert, Master of Erskine, son and heir apparent of Alexander, second Lord Erskine. There is no marriage contract among the Elphinstone muniments. But the terms of the arrangements for the marriage are given in letters of reversion by Alexander, Lord Erskine, to John Elphinstone of Airth. . . . . . . .
The reversion, which is dated at Edinburgh, 13th July 1502, has the seal of Lord Erskine appended to it, and is witnessed by Andrew Elphinstone of the Selmys, John of Portarfeild of Chapeltoun, and others. (footnote: Original version in the Elphinstone charter-chest.)
p. 77.
Alexander, Second Lord Elphinstone, 1513-1547. Contract of Marriage Catherine Erskine, 1525.
Although Lord Elphinstone was still young and under age, he entered into a contract of marriage with Catherine Erskine, daughter of John, fourth Lord Erskine. (footnote: Several peerage writers have stated that Catherine Erskine was daughter of Robert, third Lord Erskine ; but this is a mistake, as she is explicitly stated to be the daughter of John , Lord Erskine, in her marriage contract.) the contract is dated 20th November 1525, at which time Lord Elphinstone was little more than fourteen years of age. The matrimonial connection between the Erskine and Elphinstone families, which had been anxiously contemplated in the previous generation, as shown in the memoir of the first Lord Elphinstone, was deferred, according to the wishes of King James the Fourth and his queen, Margaret Tudor. The connection, however, although postponed, was not finally renounced by either of the families. It was now, after a lapse of twenty-three years, brought about in the persons of the princip!
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Dear Tony,
>
> Many thanks for that post. That appears to resolve the
> question, and solidifies some interesting Campbell of Argyll
> ancestry for descendants of the Elphinstone marriage (Tim ?).
I agree.
It is obvious that they had no television in those days so they
occupied the long winter evenings in "let's draw up marriage
contracts".
More seriously SP references Fraser's Elphinstone book and these
contracts in the Erskine article but did not get their facts quite right
in the Elphinstone article. I am doing a bit of a whiz round SP at the
moment and there are rather too many minor differences like this between
articles; perhaps they lacked a decent computer program.
On the other hand, it looks like CP has it plain wrong about the
parentage of the wife of Alex Elphinstone, the second lord.