pronunciation of Norman surnames
Lloyd555
There are some "Norman" surnames which I read and write but I don't know
how to
pronounce them.
Can anyone help with the following ones:
1. de Bohun
2. de Braose (also spelt Briouze, Breos, Braiose, Breause, Brehus)
3. de Beaumont and de Beauchamp (was it beau as in present French or as in
beautiful)
4. le Despenser
5. de Chaworth
6. de Badlesmere
and was the de pronounced like the present French de?
Peter Lloyd
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
I suppose we all pronounce these names without really thinking if we're
doing it right.....but here goes anyway!
In article <19970712204...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, Lloyd555
<lloy...@aol.com> writes
>There are some "Norman" surnames which I read and write but I don't know
>how to
>pronounce them.
>
>Can anyone help with the following ones:
>
>1. de Bohun
"de-bo-un" .... a silent "h" I've always assumed...but why?
>2. de Braose (also spelt Briouze, Breos, Braiose, Breause, Brehus)
"de-bra-ose"...."bra" as in "bray" and "ose" as in "hose"
>3. de Beaumont and de Beauchamp (was it beau as in present French or as in
> beautiful)
"de-bo-mont" and "de-beecham"
>4. le Despenser
"le-de-spenser" (not quite sure how else this one could be pronounced!)
>5. de Chaworth
"de-cha-worth"....a long "a"
>6. de Badlesmere
>
"de-badles-mere"....with "badles" similar to "battles" and "mere" as in
a lake.
>and was the de pronounced like the present French de?
Yes
>
>Peter Lloyd
At least you didn't ask about "Marjoribanks" or "Cholmondelay" :-)
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Tel & Fax: +44 171 794 3833
E-mail: p...@londwill.demon.co.uk
Don Stone
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
>
> In article <19970712204...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, Lloyd555
> <lloy...@aol.com> writes
> > There are some "Norman" surnames which I read and write but I don't
> > know how to pronounce them.
> > Can anyone help with the following ones:
> >
>
> "de-cha-worth"....a long "a"
Chah-worth, according to Some Pronunciations of Proper Names, a section
of the book _Titles and Forms of Address_, 9th edition, 1955.
They agree with (or don't supply) your other pronunciations.
-- Don Stone
Don Stone
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
>
> In article <33C92E...@plantagenet.com>, Don Stone writes
> >Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <...>, Lloyd555 <lloy...@aol.com> writes
> >> > 5. de Chaworth
> >>
> >> "de-cha-worth"....a long "a"
> >
> >Chah-worth, according to Some Pronunciations of Proper Names, a section
> >of the book _Titles and Forms of Address_, 9th edition, 1955.
>
> but omitting the "r".
In the U.S., long "a" is usually how we refer to "a" in "major", for
example. The English and the Americans -- two peoples separated by
a common language??
-- Don Stone
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
>Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
>>
>> In article <19970712204...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, Lloyd555
>> <lloy...@aol.com> writes
>> > There are some "Norman" surnames which I read and write but I don't
>> > know how to pronounce them.
>> > Can anyone help with the following ones:
>> >
>>
>> "de-cha-worth"....a long "a"
>
>Chah-worth, according to Some Pronunciations of Proper Names, a section
>of the book _Titles and Forms of Address_, 9th edition, 1955.
Yep..this is what I mean by a long "a"...pronounced as if it were "char"
but omitting the "r".
Amazing how something so simple needs such a complicated explanation!!!
>
>They agree with (or don't supply) your other pronunciations.
>
> -- Don Stone
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Paul Mackenzie
Lloyd555 wrote:
>
> There are some "Norman" surnames which I read and write but I don't know
> how to
> pronounce them.
>
> Can anyone help with the following ones:
>
> 2. de Braose (also spelt Briouze, Breos, Braiose, Breause, Brehus)
> beautiful)
> 5. de Chaworth
> 6. de Badlesmere
>
>
I saw a web site listing all the spelling variants of the name braose.
The web site address is http://www.baronage.co.uk/bphtm-01/essay-6.html
It also states that the reason for all these different variations was
that they tended to spell their names phonetically.
Regards Paul
Marsha Hallett
Dear Patrick, How about Bigod? I`ve always thought it in French...beego
Is this correct?
Thanks for the assistance,
Marsha Hallett, descended from 21 Mormon Pioneers
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
In article <33CD89...@execpc.com>, Marsha Hallett
<lia...@execpc.com> writes
>Dear Patrick, How about Bigod? I`ve always thought it in French...beego
>Is this correct?
Well, I've always pronounced it "big-od"....but others might differ!
>Thanks for the assistance,
>Marsha Hallett, descended from 21 Mormon Pioneers
And I've about 100 Mormon cousins is Utah...descendants of my great-
great-great-uncle who travelled from Yorkshire to Salt Lake City in the
1850's - totally off-topic and off-subject for this newsgroup but I
thought you might like to know, Marsha :-) :-)
Todd A. Farmerie
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
>
> I suppose we all pronounce these names without really thinking if we're
> doing it right.....but here goes anyway!
>
> >how to pronounce them.
> >
>
By the 1300s this name had transmuted to Brewes, which might give
evidence of a different pronounciation, at least in later years.
taf
Cristopher Nash
>I suppose we all pronounce these names without really thinking if we're
>doing it right.....but here goes anyway!
>
>In article <19970712204...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, Lloyd555
><lloy...@aol.com> writes
>>There are some "Norman" surnames which I read and write but I don't know
>>how to pronounce them.
>>
>>
>>1. de Bohun
-- to which Patrick Cracroft-Brennan answered (in part):
>"de-bo-un" .... a silent "h" I've always assumed...but why?
I think that's right (orig. -- from Norman, St-Georges de Bohon [Manche])
i.e. two syllables. But watch out: 'Mohun' (prob. from Norman,
Moyon/Moion [Manche]), was often pronounced 'Moon'. This contrast may come
as a surprise since (unpronounced mid-word) 'h' is normally more readily
lost than 'i/y', and I suspect that in 'Moon' we may actually be looking at
a development springing locally from family's own momentary preference.
Which definitely prods the imagination.
>>6. de Badlesmere
>"de-badles-mere"....with "badles" similar to "battles" and "mere" as in
>a lake.
I think it's worth pointing out, though, that 'Badlesmere' was (at least by
the C18) normally pronounced -- and in fact even sometimes spelled --
'Basmere' (see e.g. Hasted's _Hist & Top...Kent_).
Cris
Cristopher Nash
>Dear Patrick, How about Bigod? I`ve always thought it in French...beego
>Is this correct?
>Marsha Hallett, descended from 21 Mormon Pioneers
It's been a perennial puzzle, actually. The origin _is_ Norman (a Doomsday
under-tenant of Roger Bigot took his name from Savenay, comm. Courvaudon in
Calvados, where there was a fief know as 'le fief Bigot', etc [cf. Lloyd,
_Anglo-Norman Families_), and modern French might well lead you to expect
'beego'. C12 Fr, though, can allow pronunciation of the 't' -- just as C12
English can allow 'i' = 'ee' -- and there seems no evidence of an
inclination to lose the closing consonant in spoken English. So the most
likely early pronunciation may have been appx. 'beegot'. But in England
clearly the voiced closing consonant 'd' _was_ in use at least by the C13,
when the family name 'Bigot/Bigod' was already commonly punned with 'by
God' [see e.g. _DNB_]. Whether pronounced _either_ 'by God [as now]' OR
'bee God'.
Hope that's confused things enough.
Cris
Grant Menzies
Cristopher Nash <en...@CSV.WARWICK.AC.UK> wrote:
>>>6. de Badlesmere
Another one is de Ferrers. I fumbled over that one in the presence of
the fine genealogist who was also my piano teacher one day and she
said that in England, it is pronounced the same as "ferris".
Molyneux is another one, being pronounced "mullins".
G M Menzies
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
"E quindi uscimmo a rimirar le stelle."
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Adrian Channing
G M Menzies wrote;
> Molyneux is another one, being pronounced "mullins".
> =
Some families of this name pronounce it as it looks, Moly_new.
I understand that the name Fetherstonhaugh can be pronounced as Fan_sure
(sure as in sure-thing). I don't know if this was Norman-French, or how =
it
came to be pronounced this way, any ideas?
Adrian Channing (Surrey, UK) 10651...@CompuServ.Com
Angus Robinson
I've out of high school for over fifty five years but my recollection =
was the
so called Norman knights were actually of Viking origin. Wasn't this the
same group who were given the right to settle in the Normandy area after =
several conflicts with the French monarchy or was this another group?=20
It is also my recollection that the French King and his advisors =
figured the best way to control these errant knights was to get them =
away from Paris. How about this Hines? What can you add to my theory? My =
reason for bringing this up concerns the proper way to pronounce Norman =
names. Let us assume they had nordic ancestry, wouldn't they have =
retained some of the linguistic pronouncation of their nordic forebears? =
Just a thought. I would like to hear an answer to this by someone.
Angus Robinson
an...@pla-net.net
Grant Menzies
Adrian Channing <10651...@COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote:
>G M Menzies wrote;
>> Molyneux is another one, being pronounced "mullins".
>> =
>Some families of this name pronounce it as it looks, Moly_new.
Well, that makes me feel better, having said it that way countless
times until sternly corrected ;-)
BTW I have to endure hearing my surname mispronounced every day (at
least, when my Scots cousins are not around to revive the
original)--over there, they pron. it "Min-gis", as did my grandfather.
I've sometimes had to pronounce it that way with Britishers to get
them to understand what name it is, since the Americanized "Men-zees"
has been thought German or, on a few occasions, Portuguese!
Grant
Cristopher Nash
Adrian Channing wrote:
>I understand that the name Fetherstonhaugh can be pronounced as Fan_sure
>(sure as in sure-thing). I don't know if this was Norman-French, or how it
>came to be pronounced this way, any ideas?
It's pure A-Saxon, not a trace of Norman-French, and documented as a
placename (as 'Fetherestanehalg') at least by 1206, with 'Feother(e)stan'
(the 'th' appearing as a thorn) showing up by 996. (A featherstone's a
four-stone cromlech [feother = four].)
You can see it already unfolding (or rather, collapsing ;:> ) in forms like
the more common fairly early surname 'Fanshawe'.
Cris
D. Spencer Hines
At 09:43 PM 7/27/97 +0000, Angus Robinson wrote:
>I've out of high school for over fifty five years but my recollection was the
>so called Norman knights were actually of Viking origin. Wasn't this the
>same group who were given the right to settle in the Normandy area after
several conflicts with the French monarchy or was this another group?
> It is also my recollection that the French King and his advisors
figured the best way to control these errant knights was to get them away
from Paris. How about this Hines? What can you add to my theory? My reason
for bringing this up concerns the proper way to pronounce Norman names. Let
us assume they had nordic ancestry, wouldn't they have retained some of
the linguistic pronouncation of their nordic forebears?
>Just a thought. I would like to hear an answer to this by someone.
>Angus Robinson
>an...@pla-net.net
>
This is really a question concerning Medieval History, with particular
reference to the phenomenon of the cultural and linguistic assimilation of
invading groups.
However, a good starter source is R. Allen Brown's "The Normans" ---
certainly not flawless, but most useful and comprehensive. There is a "new
edition" [Sep 1994] and Barnes & Noble has it.
D. Spencer Hines----"O England, model to thy inward greatness, Like little
body with a mighty heart, What mightst thou do, that honor would thee do,
Were all thy children kind and natural! "The Life of Henry V"---William
Shakespeare (1564-1616)----Act II, Chorus, Lines 16-19
James Herisson
My thought, as an amateur historian, is that you are right. During some
centuries, vikings had been getting up the Seine to Paris (as in other
countries). the Louvre was certainly one of the castle who defended
those intrusions, and a big chain closed town against intreusions from
the west
But along the centuries (it didn't last some years but quite a long
times), those conquerors settled in this region later called normandy,
learnt french, converted to christianism, became more "civilized", and
the kings of Freance (don't remember which) allowed them to bear the
title of Dukes of Normandy.
At that time they had become "french", if that meant something in those
years ; certainly some of the actual surnames, keep a slight remain of
nordic language, i had also read that some names of locations, for ex.
those finished in "-beuf") as they are many in that region of the mouth
of river Seine (elbeuf, criquebeuf, etc …) are of nordic origin.
In the court of William after 1066, the language was the french, names
were pronounced the french way, they introduced french words in the
english language, and i don't think that their danish cousins, settled
there some centuries ago, could understand them.
So Molyneux, was certainly pronounced Molly-Know.
But it's my own modest theory.
James