SP Correction: Alan, earl of Menteith (d.ca. 1308) and the Earls of Fife
The...@aol.com
Hello All,
The dispensations for the marriage of Thomas, Earl of Mar and
Margaret Graham, Countess of Menteith [suo jure] were lately noted
in Bliss, as follows:
A. Dispensation dated at Avignon, 18 Kal. Sept. [15 Aug.] 1352:
' To Thomas, earl of Marre, and Margaret, relict of John de Moravia,
of the diocese of Aberdeen. Dispensation to intermarry, they being
related in the third and fourth degree of affinity. ' [1]
B. Mandate dated at Villeneuve by Avignon, 4 Kal. June [29 May] 1354:
' To the bishop of Aberdeen. Mandate to dispense Thomas, earl of
Mar, and Margaret, daughter of the late John, earl of Menteith, to
remain in the marriage which they contracted in ignorance that they
were related in the fourth degree of kindred, declaring their past
and future offspring legitimate. ' [2]
While there are lacunae in the ancestry of both individuals, the
blood relationship between Thomas and Margaret is evidently due to
their common descent from Elen, wife successively of (1) Malcolm,
Earl of Fife (d. 1266) and Donald, Earl of Mar (d. aft 25 Jul 1297).
The chart below illustrates the descents, and most importantly
support the descent of Alan, Earl of Menteith from the
Earls of Fife.
[Note: the alleged descent from Donald, earl of Mar
to Margery, wife of Alan of Menteith is shown: _ _ _ ]
1) Malcolm, earl of = Elen = 2) Donald, earl
Fife (d. 1266) I I of Mar (d. 1297
_ _ _ _ _I I_______
I I
Alan = Margery Gratney = Christian
earl of Menteith I earl of Mar I Bruce
d bef 13 I d. bef 1306 I
Mar 1308/9 I I
I I
Alan Donald = Isabel
earl of Menteith earl of Mar I
d. aft 23 Aug 1315 k. 12 Aug 1332 I
I I
I I
Sir John = Mary I
de Graham I countess of I
ex. aft 22 I Menteith I
Feb 1346/7 I I
I __________________________I
I I
Margaret = (2) Thomas
Graham earl of Mar
d. bef 21 Jul 1374
It should be noted that the Menteith-Fife relationship to
this point was generally believed to have been through Matilda,
wife of Alexander, Earl of Menteith, as noted in a recent
conversation with Andrew MacEwen. Andrew is also the individual
who recently determined that Margaret Graham's mother Mary was the
daughter of the second Alan, Earl of Menteith, and not his sister.
Given the relationship between Thomas of Mar and Margaret Graham
("in the fourth degree of kindred", but more exactly 3rd and 4th
degrees of consanguinity), the Fife connection must be through
Margery, mother of the second Alan of Menteith, and not the mother
of the first Alan (Matilda).
Below is a pedigree of the Earls of Menteith for this
period, such as I have it at present. Any relevant
comment, criticism or documentation is most welcome, expecially as
regards the apparent relationship between Sir John Murray and
Thomas, Earl of Mar.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES (to post)
[1] W. H. Bliss, B.C.L. and C. Johnson, M.A., Calendar of Entries in
the Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland, Papal
Letters, Vol. III (A.D. 1342-1362), London: for the Public Record
Office, 1897 (reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson, Liechtenstein)
III:467.
[2] Ibid., III:522.
_______________________________________________
1 Malcolm mac Duff
----------------------------------------
Death: 1266[1]
Occ: Earl of Fife
Father: Duncan mac Duff (-<1228)
Mother: Alice Corbet
Earl of Fife 1228-1266
Gael. Mael Coluim
' MALCOLM, EARL OF FIFE, DID HOMAGE BEFORE THE HIGH ALTAR FOR THE LANDS
OF CLUNY ' , 13 July 1250:
— In the Register of Dunfermline, it is noted that Malcolm, Earl of
Fife, did homage before the Great Altar, to Robert de Maledeleth, then
Abbot, for the lands of Cluny, previous to High Mass, on the day that
Holy Margaret was translated at Dunfermline in presence of King
Alexander III., seven Bishops, and seven Earls of Scotland.
(Print. Regist, Dunf. p. 235, No. 348; Dal, Mon. Antiq. p. 22.) '
- Henderson, Annals of Dunfermline[2]
gave lands to David de Graham, confirmed by King Alexander III, charter
dated at St. Andrew, 27 Dec 1253:
' ALEXANDER Dei gracia rex Scottorum, omnibus probis hominibus tocius
terre sue salutem: Sciant presentes et futuri nos concessisse et hac
carta nostra confirmasse donacionem illam quam Malcolmus comes de Fyfe
fecit Dauid de Grahame, de quibusdam terris in baronia de Caledoun,
cum pertinenciis suis...' [The Lennox II:13-15, No. 12[3]]
: Andrew B. W. MacEwen has determined that
(1) Malcolm, Earl of Fife married another daughter of Llywelyn
(possibly Susanna) as his first wife, and that
(2) His second wife was Elen, by whom he had issue, and by whom Donald
of Mar subsequently had his children.
cf. SP IV:9[4]
re: his wife:
allegedly Elen ferch Llywelyn:
reported by the historian Fordun as a daughter of 'Llywelyn, Prince of
Wales' (taken to be Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, aka Llywelyn Fawr).
This identification presents chronological difficulties, given her
reputed birthdate (1234), the reported birth date of her son Colban
MacDuff [by first husband Malcolm, Earl of Fife] ca. 1250 and
additional children by Donald, Earl of Mar from ca. 1272 onward[5]
She was evidently a kinswoman of Ada de Warenne, countess of
Northumberland (most likely a niece)
she m. lstly Malcolm, Earl of Fife,
2ndly Donald, Earl of Mar
Spouse: Elen
Death: aft Feb 1294[5]
Children: Colban, Earl of Fife (>1245-1270)
MacDuff (-1298)
Margery
1.1 Margery of Fife
----------------------------------------
conjectured to have been a dau. of Malcolm, earl of Fife (J. Ravilious
- see below), although Andrew MacEwen conjectures the mother of
Earl Alan (her mother in law) was the sister of Colban.
re: her husband:
Earl of Menteith 1306-1309
hostage for the allegiance of his father to King Edward I of England,
1292 [Red Book of Menteith I:85[7] ]
participant in the coronation of King Robert at Scone, 25 March 1306
(Barrow pp. 212-3)[6]
surrendered to the English and d. in captivity, before 13 March
1308/09 [CPR 2 Edw II, mem. 10, p. 108[8]; also G. W. S. Barrow[6]]
licence by King Edward II dated at Westminster, 13 Mar 1308/09:
' Licence to John de Hastingges to demise to Margery, late the wife
of Alan, earl of Meneteth', for her life, the manor of Wotton, held
in chief, 4 acres of land and the advowson of the church of that
place excepted. By K., on the information of Hugh le Despenser. '
[CPR 2 Edw II, mem. 10, p. 108[8]]
Spouse: Alan de Menteith, Earl of Menteith
Death: bef 13 Mar 1308, England (in captivity)[8],[6]
Father: Alexander de Menteith, Earl of Menteith(-ca1306)
Mother: Matilda
Children: NN, m. (1st wife) Malise, Earl of Strathearn (d. ca. 1343)
Alan (->1315)
1.1.1 Alan de Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 23 Aug 1315[9],[6]
Occ: titular Earl of Menteith
titular Earl of Menteith
held as reversionary heir to Earldom of Fife:
When Duncan, Earl of Fife returned to King Robert's peace at Crichton,
23 August 1315,
'He agreed to surrender his earldom to the king, in order to receive it
back on certain conditions. Failing any lawful heirs which Earl
Duncan might subsequently beget, it was to be entailed upon the
king himself and any of his lawful heirs to whom he chose to
assign the earldom... If the king were to die without lawful
heir to whom the earldom could be thus assigned, it would
revert to Earl Duncan's cousin Alan, son of Earl Alan of
Menteith.' (Barrow, p. 391)[6]
he d. before 1323, when his daughter apparently resigned the
Earldom of Menteith [Barrow, p. 388][6]
NOTE: Barrow (and others) identify Mary de Menteith as his sister.
Andrew B. W. MacEwen[9] has determined this is erroneous on
chronological grounds, and that she was in fact his daughter
as shown.
Children: Mary
1.1.1.1 Mary de Menteith
----------------------------------------
Occ: Countess of Menteith
Countess of Menteith
she resigned the Earldom of Menteith to King Robert, 'perhaps
in 1323' (Barrow, p. 388)[6]
dispensation dated 1 May 1334 (related in 4th degree to his wife
Mary de Menteith) [CPL 1394-1419, p. 251[10]; cited in SP II:411[11]]
Mandate of Pope John XXII, dated at Avignon, 1 May 1334:
' To the bishop of Dunblane. Mandate to absolve John de Gram,
knight, and Mary de Me[n]tet, from the sentence of excommunication
which they have incurred by intermarrying, knowing that they were
related in the fourth degree, and to enjoin on them a penance, and
afterwards to grant them a dispensation to intermarry anew,
declaring their past and future offspring legitimate. ' [CPL II:411,
cites Theiner, 262[11]]
NOTE: she was the daughter, not sister, of Alan, Earl of Menteith
(d. ca. 1315) as determined by Andrew B. W. MacEwen[9]
Spouse: Sir John de Graham, Earl of Menteith [de jure uxoris]
Death: aft 22 Feb 1346, executed (by the English)[12]
Father: [CONJECTURED] Sir David de Graham (-<1298)
Children: Margaret (-~1380)
Alan
1.1.1.1.1a Margaret Graham*
----------------------------------------
Death: abt 1380
Occ: Countess of Menteith
Countess of Menteith [suo jure]
mandate dated at Avignon, 11 Kal. Dec. [21 Nov.] 1348:
' To the bishop of Moray. Mandate, at the request of the queen
of Scotland, to dispense John de Moravia, donsel, and Margaret,
daughter of John de Grame, earl of Menteith, damsel, so as to
intermarry, they being related in the fourth degree of kindred.
[Cal. Pet. i. 144.] ' [CPL 1342-1362, III:303[13]]
dispensation dated at Avignon, 18 Kal. Sept. [15 Aug.] 1352:
' To Thomas, earl of Marre, and Margaret, relict of John de Moravia,
of the diocese of Aberdeen. Dispensation to intermarry, they being
related in the third and fourth degree of affinity. ' [CPL 1342-1362,
III:467[13]]
mandate dated at Villeneuve by Avignon, 4 Kal. June [29 May] 1354:
' To the bishop of Aberdeen. Mandate to dispense Thomas, earl of
Mar, and Margaret, daughter of the late John, earl of Menteith, to
remain in the marriage which they contracted in ignorance that they
were related in the fourth degree of kindred, declaring their past
and future offspring legitimate. ' [CPL 1342-1362, III:522[13]]
___________
dispensation dated 1354, abstracted by Andrew Stuart:
' Dispen. Thomae comiti de Mar Aberdonen. et Margaritae filiae
quondam Joannis Comitis de Menteith,.... 1354.' [Stuart p.446[14]]
__________
she m. 1stly Sir John de Moravia [Murray],
2ndly Thomas, Earl of Mar (divorced bef Feb 1358/9),
3rdly (as 2nd wife) Sir John Drummond,
4thly (as 1st wife) Robert Stewart, later Duke of Albany[1]
stated by Boardman to have m. John Drummond before his death in
1360[15]
Spouse: Sir John de Moravia [1st husband]
Death: bef 15 Aug 1352[13]
Father: Sir Andrew de Murray
Mother: NN
Marr: aft 21 Nov 1348[13]
1.1.1.1.1b Margaret Graham* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Thomas, Earl of Mar [2nd husband]
Birth: ca 1330[1]
Death: bef 21 Jul 1374[1]
Father: Donald, Earl of Mar (-1332)
Mother: Isabel
Marr: bef 29 May 1354[13],[14]
1.1.1.1.1c Margaret Graham* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Sir John Drummond [3rd husband]
Death: aft May 1360[15]
Father: Sir Malcolm de Drummond (-ca1348)
Marr: bef 29 Apr 1360[15],[7]
1.1.1.1.1d Margaret Graham* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Robert Stewart, Duke of Albany [4th husband]
Birth: 1339
Death: 2 Sep 1420[16]
Father: Robert II of Scotland (1315-1390)
Mother: Elizabeth Mure (-<1355)
Marr: aft 9 Sep 1361[15]
Children: Murdoch Stewart, Duke of Albany(1362-1425)
Joanna
John, Earl of Buchan(-1424)
Robert
Janet
Andrew
Mary
1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage
England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. Ebenezer Henderson, LL.D, "The Annals of Dunfermline and Vicinity,
from the Earliest Authentic Period to the Present Time, A.D.
1069 - 1878," Glasgow: John Tweed, 1879, text available courtesy
of Electric Scotland,
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/dunfermline/
3. William Fraser, ed., "The Lennox," Edinburgh, 1874, text of
vol. II:13-15 courtesy EARLY SCOTTISH CHARTERS,
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~kincaid/charters.htm
4. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh:
David Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
5. John Ravilious, Tim Powys-Lybbe & others, "Elen ferch Llywelyn
and the Earls of Mar," Nov 21, 2001, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com,
cf. early discussion by Suzanne Doig, Richard Borthwick & others
(SGM, 1997-98).
6. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of
Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
7. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
www.genealogy.com, history and evidences concerning the Earls
and Earldom of Mentieth.
8. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Edward II. A.D. 1307-1313, London: for the Public Record
Office, 1894, (reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson, Liechtenstein).
9. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, telephone conference re: (1) Mary de
Menteith, daughter (not sister) of Alan 'II' de Menteith, (2)
various corrections to pedigree of the Stewards of Scotland
(prior to King Robert II), and other matters, 5 November 2004,
notes, library of John P. Ravilious.
10. Francis McGurk, ed., "Calendar of Papal Letters to Scotland of
Benedict XIII of Avignon, 1394-1419," Edinburgh: T. and A.
Constable, Ltd., 1976, Pub. of the Scottish History Society.
11. W. H. Bliss, ed., "Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
Relating to Great Britain and Ireland," Papal Letters, Vol. II
(A.D. 1305 - 1342), London: for the Public Record Office, 1895,
(reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson, Liechtenstein).
12. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved
in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
13. W. H. Bliss, B.C.L. and C. Johnson, M.A., "Calendar of Entries in
the Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland," Papal
Letters, Vol. III (A.D. 1342-1362), London: for the Public Record
Office, 1897, (reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson, Liechtenstein).
14. Andrew Stuart, "Genealogical History of the Stewarts," : from the
earliest period of their authentic history to the present times,
London: Printed for A. Strahan, and T. Cadell Jun. and W. Davies,
in the Strand, 1798, .pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
www.genealogy.com, includes texts of dispensations relevant to the
Stewart family.
15. Stephen I Boardman, "The Early Stewart Kings: Robert II and Robert
III, 1371-1406," East Linton: Tuckwell Press, 1996, (The Stewart
Dynasty in Scotland Series, Vol. I).
16. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
* John P. Ravilious
John P. Ravilious
Please note the following correction:
for " [Note: the alleged descent from Donald, earl of Mar
to Margery, wife of Alan of Menteith is shown: _ _ _ ] "
please read " [Note: the alleged descent from MALCOLM, earl of
FIFE
to Margery, wife of Alan of Menteith is shown: _ _ _ ] "
Dispensa mea..........:(
John
The...@aol.com wrote:
> Wednesday, 21 June, 2006
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> The dispensations for the marriage of Thomas, Earl of Mar and
> Margaret Graham, Countess of Menteith [suo jure] were lately noted
> in Bliss, as follows:
>
<<<<<<<<<<<< SnIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WJho...@aol.com
<< This identification presents chronological difficulties, given her
reputed birthdate (1234), the reported birth date of her son Colban
MacDuff [by first husband Malcolm, Earl of Fife] ca. 1250 and
additional children by Donald, Earl of Mar from ca. 1272 onward[5] >>
Is the source for this 1234 birthdate also Fordun?
There doesn't appear to be a chronologic problem with believing this date,
the additional six children she had by Donald Earl of Mar could have all been
born by 1275 or 80
Will
WJho...@aol.com
<< she m. 1stly Sir John de Moravia [Murray],
2ndly Thomas, Earl of Mar (divorced bef Feb 1358/9),
3rdly (as 2nd wife) Sir John Drummond, >>
John Moray, Lord Bothwell ?
Or not lord ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Panetarius to the King.
His great great uncle Sir William, known as Dives for his wealth,
sighed the Ragman Roll as Willielmus de Moravia Dominus de Bothwell.
Sir John died before 1352 without issue and his brother Sir Thomas in
1361 probably of the plague in London, on an embassy. Both brothers
married heirs of earldoms and had both had issue, the Murrays would
have presented as powerful a family as earlier did the Comyns and later
the Douglases.